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Author Topic: To be deleted  (Read 15936 times)

Offline itsu

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2018, 03:02:47 PM »

NP,

thanks for the info, need to digest most of it still though.

We had an internet outage all morning, so need to catch up now.

I changed the feedback led now back to green, so we should almost be there :-)

Measured again the voltage across the now green feedback led with the scope to be 1.47V rms @ 2.54mA rms and 800uW
The DMM (Fluke 179) shows 0.792V, but it is operating out of its specs, so unreliable.

Removed the 2200uF and 0.1uF caps (i allways include them when working on pulsing systems).

The sharp negative green current pulse visible in my last screenshot above is the same as the current pulse through the (now again) green led.
So it seems that the feedback signal (current) through the green led is fed back into the battery pack now.

I have combined the supply input current (in white) with the current (in green) through the green led in the below screenshot.
There you see that the both sharp pulses (green is reversed for better comparing) are the same.

Rest of the post will be analyzed later today.

Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: To be deleted
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2018, 03:02:47 PM »

Offline Void

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2018, 04:55:53 PM »
Hi nul-points. Going by Itsu's scope power measurement values posted on his diagram in reply # 37 above,
below is what the efficiency works out to. If the scope math function that Itsu is using
calculates all the instantaneous power points by multiplying all the corresponding current and
voltage waveform points and then takes the average (mean) of all those calculated instantaneous
power points, then those scope power calculations should be pretty close to actual. This method
would take into account any negative going parts of voltage and current waveforms as part of the
calculations.

Just taking an RMS measurement of a complex asymmetrical spikey waveform which goes both
negative and positive may not give an accurate reading, since the meter or scope may only
look at just the positive or negative half of the waveform to calculate the RMS value.
It would depend on how the meter or scope calculates the RMS values, so I wouldn't trust
such RMS readings on asymmetrical waveforms which go both positive and negative without knowing
exactly how a particular meter or scope determines the RMS values.

Based on Itsu's posted power measurements in his reply # 37:
-------------------------------------------------
Input power from battery: 28.4 mW

Total circuit power consumption: 1.4 mW + 2.3 mW + 21 mW = 24.7 mW
(power consumed by base resistor and base circuit of transistor should be fairly small)

Efficiency = (24.7 mW / 28.4 mW) x 100 = 86.97 = 87%

nul-points, I will have to take a closer look at your comments later this evening when I have time,
but the calculated efficiency above here looks about in the right vicinity for that type of circuit.
The power consumption of circuit components like transistors is not normally included in
efficiency calculations, but, anyway, I understand why you are doing that, and it doesn't change
things by that much anyway since the power consumption of the transistor is relatively low.

Itsu, with your white LED measured as consuming around 21 mW, was the white LED glowing very very bright,
like almost flashlight bright? At 21 mW, it seems to the me the white LED would be glowing super bright.

Offline itsu

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2018, 07:14:35 PM »

Void,

The way you describe the working of the scope i use is correct.
It takes 250M(ega) samples / sec across the whole display screen, then average (mean) them.

I also have to agree with your effeciency calculations (±87%).

 
The white load led is/was indeed very bright as to unable to look into.

Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: To be deleted
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2018, 07:14:35 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2018, 07:33:24 PM »

I received my BC327-25 transistor, so build a new setup using a PCB instead of the breadboard.
The breadboard is kind of unstable and i want repeatable results.

The setup is shown below.

Using:

the new BC327 transistor,
the same transformer,
the same 50K pot,
a green feedback led,
a white (10mm) load led,
a ceramic 47pF cap,
a 100uF electrolytic capacitor and
the 3.7V 3.1KWh (840mAh) battery pack

It has an on/off switch and elevated leads so to be able to put the current probe almost anywhere.
The transistor and potmeter are removeable.

Will do again the measurements this weekend.

Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Void

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2018, 08:35:01 PM »
The new circuit layout looks good Itsu. Nice to have those raised wires
for easy access by your current probe. Ok on the white LED being very bright
in the previous test. That passes the sanity check. :)

For the scope math calculation, if you mean that the math function does
multiply each corresponding point for the current and voltage waveforms
to get the instantaneous power for each point set, and then takes the mean of
all those multiplied values, then from my understanding that is a quite accurate way to
determine the average power. I have used that same method in the past to analyze
joule thief circuits and similar, but I had to do the multiplication of the waveform points
and take the average using an Excel spreadsheet to do the calculations on all the points. :)


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: To be deleted
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2018, 08:35:01 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2018, 09:10:22 PM »

Thanks void,

Yes, this "multiply each corresponding point for the current and voltage waveforms
              to get the instantaneous power for each point set, and then takes the mean of
              all those multiplied values",
is for me the most (only) accurate way to determine average power on such waveforms.

I do not even want to think about having to do the multiplication of the waveform points etc, by hand  :o

Itsu 

Offline Void

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2018, 09:43:28 PM »
Hi Itsu. In my case it was not done manually. I exported all the points for a period of time
for the voltage and current waveforms into a CSV file, and then used the formula features of Excel
to do the calculations automatically. Works quite well. :)

Yes, for any asymmetrical waveform which goes both positive and negative, even using the RMS feature
of a scope is likely going to be inaccurate, as I think many if not most scopes only look at one half of
the waveform (postive or negative half) to do the RMS calculation. The method you are using which makes
use of a current probe and voltage probe and then uses a math function to calculate the average power consumption
is the only reliable way to make power measurements on those types of waveforms, assuming the probes are
reading reasonably accurately.

In the 'efficiency' calculation I did above, the discrepancy between the input power and the total 'output power'
may possibly be due to the current feeding back from the feedback LED into the battery not properly
being taken into account. If you measure the battery voltage with a scope probe and the battery
current with a scope current probe and use your scope math function to compute the average input power,
then that should properly take into account the feedback current from feedback LED, if that is not what you
did previously. Then the input power and total 'output power' should come out more closely, I would think,
as the power dissipation in the coils and ferrite core is probably not very significant.

I have done a lot of testing with these type of circuits and have never seen any signs of OU
in regards to them, and nor would I expect any OU there since there is really nothing
out of the ordinary included in those types of circuits, unless maybe someone does something very
unusual with a ferrite or iron core.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: To be deleted
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2018, 09:43:28 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline nul-points

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2018, 10:20:19 PM »
I received my BC327-25 transistor, so build a new setup using a PCB instead of the breadboard.
The breadboard is kind of unstable and i want repeatable results.

The setup is shown below.

Using:

the new BC327 transistor,
the same transformer,
the same 50K pot,
a green feedback led,
a white (10mm) load led,
a ceramic 47pF cap,
a 100uF electrolytic capacitor and
the 3.7V 3.1KWh (840mAh) battery pack

It has an on/off switch and elevated leads so to be able to put the current probe almost anywhere.
The transistor and potmeter are removeable.

Will do again the measurements this weekend.

Regards Itsu


nice build (as always!) Itsu, the parts list is looking good

i'm glad to see that you have confirmed a bidirectional supply current, consisting of both negative and positive pulses (one relating to the feedback path and the other to the main drive path)

i'll be meeting with family for a couple of days now, but should be back online later on Sunday

i hope your internet access has been restored - we've had outages on the cellphone network over the last couple days (that was fun!)

regards
np

Offline Turbo

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2018, 10:26:31 PM »
yes yes is that a ferite core ?
your almost there.
there is a specific mark and a space ratio.
fire the pulse train and vary the frequency until you get a response back in the space (null) time that the transistor is off, then when you got the sweet spot frequency right, fine tune the pulse train duration and adjust the space time lastly.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: To be deleted
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2018, 10:26:31 PM »
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Offline AlienGrey

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2018, 12:20:33 AM »
The thread label is FLY back In order to achieve a true fly back you need a charge time on a tv its like 52usec and a return time (energy dump)
into the flyback of 12 microseconds but I presume you want to beat the magnetic vortex known as lens law in that case you might want to go
a lot faster than 64 usec and shouldn't the horn waveform be the other way round without the ringing oscillations try putting the scop on the
transistor base to see if that's got a clean cut off signal.

Offline itsu

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2018, 10:51:56 AM »

Void,


Quote
If you measure the battery voltage with a scope probe and the battery
current with a scope current probe and use your scope math function to compute the average input power,
then that should properly take into account the feedback current from feedback LED, if that is not what you
did previously.

I use both DMM's and the scope to compare, but for calculating power i always use the scope to get consistent measurements over the circuit.
Concerning the use of DMM's, see also the video in a later post.



NP,

Internet is back up, so was able to catch up   :)



Turbo,

not sure who you are asking, but yes thats a ferrite pot core i use in the transformer.
I don't see to what screenshot you refer with your somewhat oversized   ;) screenshot, could you elaborate?



AG,

not sure to who you are responding, but as my scopeshots show no ringing i guess you are responding to turbo his post.



Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: To be deleted
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2018, 10:51:56 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline itsu

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2018, 11:10:08 AM »

Here the first results of my measurements of the new setup.

Basically i measure at 4 points being across the battery (input) and the 3 power users (2x led and transistor).
I have taken screenshot of those 4 measurement points and put them in below.

The wattage of the transistor is in the 800uW range, so not 800mW as i mention in the video.

A (boring!) video of those 4 measurements can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uQ8BBxiU0s

I will repeat these measurements a few times to see if the results stay the same over a period of time.

Regards Itsu

Offline Void

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2018, 05:45:50 PM »
Here the first results of my measurements of the new setup.

Basically i measure at 4 points being across the battery (input) and the 3 power users (2x led and transistor).
I have taken screenshot of those 4 measurement points and put them in below.

The wattage of the transistor is in the 800uW range, so not 800mW as i mention in the video.

A (boring!) video of those 4 measurements can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uQ8BBxiU0s

I will repeat these measurements a few times to see if the results stay the same over a period of time.

Regards Itsu

Hi Itsu. Nice job! Nice clear presentation. Something does not appear to be adding up in those power measurements
however, but I am not sure off hand why that might be. From your diagram:
Power In: 17.96 mW
Total circuit power consumption: 1.1mW + 770uW + 10.6mW = 12.47mW

I would expect that the total input power and the total circuit power consumption should compare at least fairly close,
but that is not what we have. Either something else in the circuit is consuming a significant amount of power that
is not being measured (I can't think what that might be at the moment), or the power measurements are off in one or
more places for some reason. Can you think of any reason for this discrepency? Unless the coil windings on the ferrite core
are consuming about 5mW? That seems quite high to me, as I wouldn't expect small coils of wire to consume anywhere
near that much power. What do you think?

I think a sanity check test setup of your scope power measurement method to see if the power measurements with
the scope are reasonably correct or not with complex waveforms would be a good idea here.

Offline Hoppy

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2018, 06:02:31 PM »
Hi Itsu. Nice job! Nice clear presentation. Something does not appear to be adding up in those power measurements

Pot, caps and Inductor power dissipation.

Offline itsu

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Re: To be deleted
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2018, 06:49:38 PM »

Hi Void,

Yes, there are some things that don't add up, like the current through the transistor (7.1mA) and below it
the current through the load led (3.7mA) and the current to the 100uF cap / feedback led (5.2mA) being 8.9mA.


Another point i see is the voltage across the transistor and the load led.
If you combine those you get more then what the battery pack (3.75V) delivers:
1.62 + 2.84 = 4.46V
1.72 + 2.89 = 4.61V

When scoping from emitter transistor to cathode load led it shows 3.75V rms again.


So its very hard to get accurate readings, even with my scope setup, especially the current probe needs constant calibration / degausing.

Therefor i am planning to take daily measurements and take the average after some time.

Today i did a second measurement and put the results in a spreadsheet, see below.
There you see that the difference between input and the power users is much smaller (about 1mW)



Itsu

 

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