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Author Topic: flyback data  (Read 10435 times)

Offline seaad

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2016, 01:05:47 PM »
.

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2016, 01:05:47 PM »

Offline nul-points

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2016, 02:25:47 PM »
Great!  Got it - thanks, Arne

np
 

Offline ramset

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2016, 02:28:00 PM »

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2016, 02:28:00 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2016, 08:52:04 PM »
Appreciate what you're doing there - many thanks Chet

np
 

Offline nul-points

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Flyback flashlite; adding feedback takes circuit OU
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 12:14:21 AM »

firstly, apologies for the long gap in posting results here - i've had health issues


i've greatly appreciated the positive and interesting exchange of ideas and results with some good friends who i met here on OU.com - you know who you are!


this is likely to be my last posting on OU (for a number of reasons, not just health) and i wanted to share some results which have followed on from my previous experiments with charge-switching and feedback


i have attempted to 'distil' all that i've observed and learnt from my previous solid-state experiments

as in my orevious experiments, the switching circuit shown below operates at higher than audio frequencies (approx 130 kHz here), in 2 half-cycles a) & b):

a) the transistor switches on, its collector current illuminates the output LED(s) and also stores energy in the coil field and electrolytic cap; when the coil saturates then the transistor turns off;  enough energy remains in the electrolytic cap to supply the output LED(s) until the next cycle (the cap voltage is DC with minimal ripple)

b) current supplied from the energy stored in the collapsing coil-field and the electrolytic cap is fed back to the battery (while the transistor is off) via the feedback LED - IFF the feedback LED is illuminated then the battery is receiving charge in this half-cycle (in this case, equivalent to approximately one-fifth of the output current)

(over the last few years i've tested a LOT of exotic transformer designs, solenoidal/'partnered'/(multi)/toroidal - i don't think that there is anything unusual about the transformer here - approx 1cm^3 volume of ferrite, solenoidal wound, almost completely enclosed by the ferrite;  the wire is 2x45x0.45cm diam. insulated copper, 5:5 turns)

(Fig.1 below, Schematic)


for these tests, the battery is an LIR providing 4.15V;  supply current is 5.4mA

pk voltage of feedback pulse across feedback LED + battery is approx 7V;  pulse width approx 1.5 us

(Fig 2. below, Voltage pulse across Feedback LED)


so-called 'conventional' current flows OUT of the positive terminal of the battery in half-cycle a) and INTO that terminal in half-cycle b)

voltage across 1ohm Current Sensing Resistor in +ve supply line shows approx same peak magnitude current flows, into and out of the battery, matching the 20% duty cycle for the respective average current flows

(Fig 3. below,  bidirectional Voltage across 1ohm CSR in +ve supply line)


(NB.  all values measured using a True RMS meter and confirmed in order of magnitude using a 'scope)

feedback current:  1.18mA (True RMS)
feedback LED load:  approx 2.6V * 1.18mA = 3mW approx

main LED branch current:  6.5mA (True RMS)
main LED branch load:  4.15V * 6.5mA = 26.98mW

voltage across electrolytic//main LEDs is 2.7V DC
main LED load:  2.7V * 6.5mA = 17.55 mW

switching cct load:  26.98 - 17.55 = 9.43mW

total LED load:  17.55 + 3 = 20.55mW

total power load:  20.55 + 9.43 = 29.98mW

supply current:  5.4mA (True RMS)
total power supply:  4.15 * 5.4mA = 22.41mW

Efficiency  n  =  (total load / supply)  =  (29.98 / 22.41) = 134%

results shown are instanteous power, mW (these are proportional to the energy being converted, mWh)


*** Edited to add...***


Feeding back the flyback energy, plus some stored in the electrolytic cap, has taken the whole device OU - more work is being achieved for less supply because energy is being 'recycled' back into the battery.  energy is conserved - but work isn't.


if the feedback is removed, the supply current increases; it becomes the only current path, however it is lower than the load current with feedback - less work is achieved for a higher supply level

« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 10:53:19 AM by nul-points »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Flyback flashlite; adding feedback takes circuit OU
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2018, 12:14:21 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Flyback flashlite; adding feedback takes circuit OU
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2018, 03:34:37 PM »
firstly, apologies for the long gap in posting results here - i've had health issues


i've greatly appreciated the positive and interesting exchange of ideas and results with some good friends who i met here on OU.com - you know who you are!


this is likely to be my last posting on OU (for a number of reasons, not just health) and i wanted to share some results which have followed on from my previous experiments with charge-switching and feedback


i have attempted to 'distil' all that i've observed and learnt from my previous solid-state experiments

as in my orevious experiments, the switching circuit shown below operates at higher than audio frequencies (approx 130 kHz here), in 2 half-cycles a) & b):

a) the transistor switches on, its collector current illuminates the output LED(s) and also stores energy in the coil field and electrolytic cap; when the coil saturates then the transistor turns off;  enough energy remains in the electrolytic cap to supply the output LED(s) until the next cycle (the cap voltage is DC with minimal ripple)

b) current supplied from the energy stored in the collapsing coil-field and the electrolytic cap is fed back to the battery (while the transistor is off) via the feedback LED - IFF the feedback LED is illuminated then the battery is receiving charge in this half-cycle (in this case, equivalent to approximately one-fifth of the output current)

(over the last few years i've tested a LOT of exotic transformer designs, solenoidal/'partnered'/(multi)/toroidal - i don't think that there is anything unusual about the transformer here - approx 1cm^3 volume of ferrite, solenoidal wound, almost completely enclosed by the ferrite;  the wire is 2x45x0.45cm diam. insulated copper, 5:5 turns)

(Fig.1 below, Schematic)


for these tests, the battery is an LIR providing 4.15V;  supply current is 5.4mA

pk voltage of feedback pulse across feedback LED + battery is approx 7V;  pulse width approx 1.5 us

(Fig 2. below, Voltage pulse across Feedback LED)


so-called 'conventional' current flows OUT of the positive terminal of the battery in half-cycle a) and INTO that terminal in half-cycle b)

voltage across 1ohm Current Sensing Resistor in +ve supply line shows approx same peak magnitude current flows, into and out of the battery, matching the 20% duty cycle for the respective average current flows

(Fig 3. below,  bidirectional Voltage across 1ohm CSR in +ve supply line)


(NB.  all values measured using a True RMS meter and confirmed in order of magnitude using a 'scope)

feedback current:  1.18mA (True RMS)
feedback LED load:  approx 2.6V * 1.18mA = 3mW approx

main LED branch current:  6.5mA (True RMS)
main LED branch load:  4.15V * 6.5mA = 26.98mW

voltage across electrolytic//main LEDs is 2.7V DC
main LED load:  2.7V * 6.5mA = 17.55 mW

switching cct load:  26.98 - 17.55 = 9.43mW

total LED load:  17.55 + 3 = 20.55mW

total power load:  20.55 + 9.43 = 29.98mW

supply current:  5.4mA (True RMS)
total power supply:  4.15 * 5.4mA = 22.41mW

Efficiency  n  =  (total load / supply)  =  (29.98 / 22.41) = 134%

results shown are instanteous power, mW (these are proportional to the energy being converted, mWh)


*** Edited to add...***


Feeding back the flyback energy, plus some stored in the electrolytic cap, has taken the whole device OU - more work is being achieved for less supply because energy is being 'recycled' back into the battery.  energy is conserved - but work isn't.


if the feedback is removed, the supply current increases; it becomes the only current path, however it is lower than the load current with feedback - less work is achieved for a higher supply level

Where are your CVRs in the schematic?
Surly you are not using a current probe at these low power levels?


Brad

Offline nul-points

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2018, 04:30:51 PM »
hi Brad, how are ye?   nice to meet you too


"voltage across 1ohm Current Sensing Resistor in +ve supply line shows approx same peak magnitude current flows, into and out of the battery, matching the 20% duty cycle for the respective average current flows

(Fig 3. below,  bidirectional Voltage across 1ohm CSR in +ve supply line)

(NB.  all values measured using a True RMS meter and confirmed in order of magnitude using a 'scope)"


[edited to show context]






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Re: flyback data
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2018, 04:30:51 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2018, 08:47:01 PM »

Hi NP,

sorry to hear about your problems, i hope they change for the better soon.

Your "Efficiency  n  =  (total load / supply)  =  (29.98 / 22.41) = 134%"  warrants a further investigation.

Could you be more specific about the transformer though?

You mention:
approx 1cm^3 volume of ferrite, solenoidal wound, almost completely enclosed by the ferrite;  the wire is 2x45x0.45cm diam.
insulated copper, 5:5 turns).


I cannot picture this in my mind, so could you perhaps show a picture?
The 5:5 and 2x45x0.45cm  (i guess you mean mm) is not clear to me (2x 5 turns, or 2x 45 turns, ontop of each other
or next to each other, insulated copper = magnet wire?).

Thanks,   regards Itsu

Offline nul-points

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2018, 11:46:29 PM »
hi itsu, good to 'see' you again, i hope you are well

thanks, my motivation and attention to detail are just 2 of the things affected, as you may sense from my lack of posting, and also thinking that 0.45cm could possibly be correct as a wire diameter fitting inside 1cm^3 volume of ferrite - hah!

...i tried so hard to make sure that i reported all the details correctly, LOL


yes, the excess power value took me by surprise, too - but the circuit is so simple, with only 2 main current paths between supply, so that it was more obvious that there was something unusual happening

previous circuits which had LED loads and also stored some energy in a 2nd battery showed energy could be stored and reused but this is an interesting development to achieve with just the 1 supply battery


ok, the transformer...

yes, i should have described 2 equal lengths of 0.45mm magnet wire, cut from 1 piece 45cm long, wound as 5 turns each - i guess they could be wound on as bifilar, but i wound 1 turn of say primary, then 1 turn of secondary, then 2nd turn of primary, then 2nd turn of secondary, etc

i didnt have a fully enclosed ferrite 'pot' of 2 halves, so i improvised, i'll try to attach a photo of something equivalent** - the total volume of ferrite is approx 1cm^3  just enough to enclose the windings inside a thin shell of ferrite

(**my xfr is small, dark ferrite taped up with black tape - so i don't think it will photo well)

[Edit: corrected winding details;  added photo to show comparative size of transformer 'pot core', black rectangular object, centre of proto-board, approx 20x10x5mm, some wire is exposed at each end, topologically similar to a hollow torus containing 2 interleaved solenoidal windings, similar to bifilar wound.  poor quality photo using phone - sorry!]


i hope this helps!

thanks for reading, good luck with your experiments
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 01:58:09 AM by nul-points »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: flyback data
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2018, 11:46:29 PM »
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Offline doktorsvet

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2018, 07:54:34 AM »

Found a picture of the OS on the Internet.
I wound 5 sections of 10 + 5 turns in each

Offline itsu

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2018, 10:07:29 AM »

Hi NP,

i am fine thanks.

Ok, i think i get the picture now  :)

I have some pot cores, but not that small, so have to look for one in my junkbox or improvise.
Rest of the parts should be no problem.

I will try to follow your line of measurements and calculations and hopefully reach similar results.


Be well,   regards Itsu


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Re: flyback data
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2018, 10:07:29 AM »
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Offline Void

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Re: Flyback flashlite; adding feedback takes circuit OU
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2018, 11:50:38 AM »

(NB.  all values measured using a True RMS meter and confirmed in order of magnitude using a 'scope)

feedback current:  1.18mA (True RMS)
feedback LED load:  approx 2.6V * 1.18mA = 3mW approx

main LED branch current:  6.5mA (True RMS)
main LED branch load:  4.15V * 6.5mA = 26.98mW

voltage across electrolytic//main LEDs is 2.7V DC
main LED load:  2.7V * 6.5mA = 17.55 mW

switching cct load:  26.98 - 17.55 = 9.43mW

total LED load:  17.55 + 3 = 20.55mW

total power load:  20.55 + 9.43 = 29.98mW

supply current:  5.4mA (True RMS)
total power supply:  4.15 * 5.4mA = 22.41mW

Efficiency  n  =  (total load / supply)  =  (29.98 / 22.41) = 134%

results shown are instanteous power, mW (these are proportional to the energy being converted, mWh)


Hi nul-points. I tried to fairly evaluate what you have described above, but right away see the following issues:
Most true RMS meters or regular DVM's are not spec'd for use to anywhere near 130 kHz, although a few may
possibly be spec'd for use at that high of frequency. What true RMS meter were you using (make and model #)?
Do the specs for that meter indicate it can be used to measure AC currents up to at least 130 kHz?

Your terms and calculations such as 'main LED branch load', 'main LED load', 'switching cct load', 'total LED load' just aren't
making much sense to me. You would have to clarify those terms and explain or show exactly how and where you are making
those measurements if you want people to be clear about the measurements you are describing. When measuring
power in AC circuits, the phase angle between the voltage and current is very important. When you are talking about
AC circuits with pulse or spikey waveforms, power measurement can be a lot a trickier. At any rate, you can't just throw
a DVM or true RMS DVM in at different points in AC circuits to measure current and ignore phase angles.

Also, above you said "results shown are instanteous power, mW", but you can't calculate efficiency based on instantaneous power,
and you can't measure instantaneous power if you are using a true RMS meter to measure current. To calculate efficiency,
you must measure/calculate average output power and average input power. So what you said about 'instantaneous power,' really doesn't
appear to make any sense.

Not trying to be difficult at all. Just some honest feedback on what was presented. I am trying to be as nice about it as I can, but I
know from experience that honest feedback will more often either be ignored or attacked rather than being fairly considered. :)
My comments are directed to anyone in general who cares about really trying to understand how things are really performing
in circuits such as this. IMO, an experimenter must be willing to examine and question all assumptions being made and check all
measurements over many times with the frame of mind of what might I being doing wrong here or overlooking here, and even then
chances are that a person could still be overlooking one or more things that could be throwing their measurements/calculations off,
if they think they are measuring OU. I have seen it many times over. :) Unless your circuit is a self-runner, it is highly recommended
to ask for feedback from other people with experience in this area to point out any issues they might see. You must also be willing to
clearly explain or show exactly how you are making your measurements. If a person doesn't approach this sort of experimentation with
this type of mind set, then in my opinion they have most likely lost before they have even started. That might possibly sound harsh to newbies,
but long experience does prove this out. AC circuits with complex waveforms such as pulse waveforms, etc. really can be quite tricky to evaluate
(unless you can make it into a self-runner that is). :)


Offline nul-points

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2018, 12:34:50 PM »
hi Void


yes, i see what you're saying, point taken - i'm obviously much more confused these days than i thought i was  :(

Offline tinman

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Re: Flyback flashlite; adding feedback takes circuit OU
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2018, 12:35:13 PM »
 author=Void link=topic=16384.msg527698#msg527698 date=1543920638]

Quote
Not trying to be difficult at all. Just some honest feedback on what was presented. I am trying to be as nice about it as I can, but I
know from experience that honest feedback will more often either be ignored or attacked rather than being fairly considered. :)
My comments are directed to anyone in general who cares about really trying to understand how things are really performing
in circuits such as this. IMO, an experimenter must be willing to examine and question all assumptions being made and check all
measurements over many times with the frame of mind of what might I being doing wrong here or overlooking here, and even then
chances are that a person could still be overlooking one or more things that could be throwing their measurements/calculations off,
if they think they are measuring OU. I have seen it many times over. :) Unless your circuit is a self-runner, it is highly recommended
to ask for feedback from other people with experience in this area to point out any issues they might see. You must also be willing to
clearly explain or show exactly how you are making your measurements. If a person doesn't approach this sort of experimentation with
this type of mind set, then in my opinion they have most likely lost before they have even started. That might possibly sound harsh to newbies,
but long experience does prove this out. AC circuits with complex waveforms such as pulse waveforms, etc. really can be quite tricky to evaluate
(unless you can make it into a self-runner that is). :)


So very very true Void

Offline Void

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Re: flyback data
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2018, 12:48:34 PM »
hi Void
yes, i see what you're saying, point taken - i'm obviously much more confused these days than i thought i was  :(

Well, not saying it is all necessarily incorrect, but was just pointing out
some likely problem areas and areas that would need clarification which I noticed.
Thanks for sharing here however. :)

author=Void link=topic=16384.msg527698#msg527698 date=1543920638]
So very very true Void

Yes, I have tripped myself up on various occasions in the past in my own experimenting.
It is easy enough to overlook things when trying to evaluate circuit performance in these types of circuits.
Can happen to anyone for sure. :)


 

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