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## Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: abv on February 01, 2016, 03:45:18 PM

Title: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 01, 2016, 03:45:18 PM
Perpetual Mobile concept. Where is the mistake here?

Everyone knows that “perpetual motion machine” can not be created. This is contrary to the law of conservation of energy. Indeed, the excess over 100% efficiency gives energy from nowhere. Energy possible get as much as was spent or even less because part of the energy is lost in the conversion process.

All this is true for closed systems where the balance of forces always will stay in equilibrium state and any energy transformation within a closed system will be less than 100% efficiency. However, if look in a broader scale, than possible create linked closed systems which will use one shared object. These linked closed systems use same shared object simultaneously. Other words, during interactions in these closed systems, the internal forces inside them will not influence each other. However, changes of physical parameters of object what was done in one system will change the balance of forces in the other linked closed system. Therefore, even with the law of conservation of energy in a closed systems, the work will be induced by changes of physical parameters of the object to restore the balance of power in a closed system.
More details here: https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/01/30/perpetual-mobile/
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 02, 2016, 05:19:03 AM
I have read your webpage, and what I notice upon first glance, is that you are missing 1/2 of the work function in the first system.
It is acknowledged, as potential gravitational energy, at the end of the cycle in the second system.

Compression of the gas inside the balloon consumes an energy, lets call it the "compression energy".
This heats the gas, so in order to maintain an adiabatic compression, heat must be taken out of the gas and stored.
the expansion energy is essentially equal to the compression energy and can be directly obtained by allowing the balloon to expand.
This cools the gas, and to maintain an adiabatic expansion, the stored heat must be put back into the gas to maintain constant temperature.
While it may be a painful task to physically build this, the physics are pretty straight forward.
If we had a material with a low enough coefficient of thermal conductivity, (well insulated)
and a near perfect heat pump, eliminated friction, etc. we could (in theory) make a process 100% efficient.

Your second system is described adequately enough that I don't need to tear it apart. But you are left with an energy value.
E =mgh, where m is the mass of the "load", g is gravity, and h is the height the load was lifted to.
why?

All of these equations, all of the constants involved, their proportional relationship,
these things depend upon an earth specific human condition.
In other words, all of these experiments are assumed to take place at Sea Level, and 1 Atm of pressure.
The second part is what you forgot to take into account.

There is a work function, to displace the atmosphere, and cause buoyancy.
This is proportionally equal to the gravitational potential as a result of the buoyant force over distance.
Buoyancy is not "infinite" in height. In water it appears that way because we can make pressure differences that result in a height greater than the water column.
This is not the case in air, there is a point where (if the balloon doesn't expand with height) the buoyant force will equal out with gravity.
This change in energy (e=mgh) is exactly the same energy put into the work function that displaced the air in the first place.

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 02, 2016, 05:37:52 AM
to further understand this, compare it to two fluids of different density.
one will float on top of the other.

now, add a 3rd different density fluid to the container, and you will see layers.

the atmosphere is the same way. there are layers of different density. Water sits on the bottom, heavy gasses like nitrogen tend to sit near sea level (when there is little wind).

add varying temperatures and pressures, and our sky can contain hundreds of unique specific gravity layers.

If you had several balloons, each of equal mass, and equal displacement (volume). maintained an equal temperature.
and released them, to allow buoyancy to take over.

You would find that the balloons all settle to the same height. like they were a fluid of specific density.
and that is exactly what they can be viewed as.
Their equivalent density balances out with that of the air around it.
Heavier air is below, and lighter air is above the balloons.

this is affected by the load, a series of loaded balloons will assume a lower maximum height.
in fact you can do this with a helium balloon in your living room. Simply increase the load to slightly less than the maximum load the balloon can lift.
You can get it to balance at a specific height within the space between your floor and ceiling.
Add more load to make it float lower, decrease the load to make it float at a higher level.

If you were to now expand and contract this 'loaded' helium balloon, the change in potential energy, as observed by the height of the load:  will correspond precisely with the atmospheric displacement component of the expansion energy during the expansion phase.

ps - you cannot regain the  energy during the compression phase at the top of the buoyant column.
the atmospheric pressure is proportionately lower at this height. there is no more potential to compress, which is
why the buoyant force balances out at this point.

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 02, 2016, 02:47:58 PM
If we had a material with a low enough coefficient of thermal conductivity, (well insulated)
and a near perfect heat pump, eliminated friction, etc. we could (in theory) make a process 100% efficient.

If you were to now expand and contract this 'loaded' helium balloon, the change in potential energy, as observed by the height of the load:  will correspond precisely with the atmospheric displacement component of the expansion energy during the expansion phase.

As it was mentioned the efficiency of first closed system is 100%. So, the stored energy from gas expansion process can be used for gas compression process.
In this case, when balloon with load is lifted on certain height, the gas compression process will use energy what was stored from gas expansion. However, the potential energy of load can be used as extra energy.
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 03, 2016, 01:25:04 AM
As it was mentioned the efficiency of first closed system is 100%. So, the stored energy from gas expansion process can be used for gas compression process.
In this case, when balloon with load is lifted on certain height, the gas compression process will use energy what was stored from gas expansion. However, the potential energy of load can be used as extra energy.

you're still missing it.....

It takes MORE ENERGY to expand it at lower altitudes.
the DIFFERENCE in ENERGY is the SAME as the BOUYANT WORK FUNCTION!!!!!!

there is no "extra energy".....  the work done to lift the load was already consumed by the expansion process
PRIOR to the lifting.....
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 03, 2016, 02:10:33 AM
exponential pressure decay with increasing distance from the ground.
the following was copied from some random college prep webpage
Quote

We are actually living near the bottom of an ocean of air.

At sea level, the weight of the air presses on us with a pressure of approximately 14.7 lbs/in2.

At higher altitudes, less air means less weight and less pressure.  Pressure and density of air decreases with increasing elevation.

Pressure varies smoothly from the earth's surface to the top of the mesosphere.  This table compiled by NASA gives a rough idea of air pressure at various altitudes (as a fraction of one atmosphere).

fraction of 1 atm average altitude
(m)                 (ft)
1                     0                    0
1/2               5,486.3        18,000
1/3               8,375.8        27,480
1/10            16,131.9       52,926
1/100          30,900.9       101,381
1/1000        48,467.2       159,013
1/10000      69,463.6       227,899
1/100000    96,281.6       283,076

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 03, 2016, 04:57:13 AM
you're still missing it.....

It takes MORE ENERGY to expand it at lower altitudes.
the DIFFERENCE in ENERGY is the SAME as the BOUYANT WORK FUNCTION!!!!!!

there is no "extra energy".....  the work done to lift the load was already consumed by the expansion process
PRIOR to the lifting.....

I'm not sure what law of conservation of energy can be used between isolated systems.
The first isolated system is balloon with gas. This system knows nothing about altitude. System has efficiency 100%. Energy from gas decompression equal to gas compression.

For better understanding energy of conservation in first closed system, let's say this system has turbine with alternator and battery to store energy as electricity and electrical compressor for gas compression process. All of this devices and energy transformation process have efficiency 100%.
The balloon with compressed gas and load stay on the ground. In first closed system, gas decompression process is starting. Rotating turbine with alternator generate electricity and store into battery. This stored electrical energy from battery will be used for gas compression process in a future.
Next.
In second closed system, when buoyancy force will be more than force of gravity of balloon with load then balloon starts flying.
Again, the first closed system knows nothing about altitude. In this case energy wat was stored into battery still there, and no matter what height balloon reached.
Next.
When balloon reached certain height then In first closed system using electrical energy from battery the compressor will start process of gas compression. It will use all electrical energy to compress gas to same balloon volume. The first system is closed and has efficiency 100%.
Plus extra potential energy of load from certain height.
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 03, 2016, 06:02:27 PM
I'm not sure what law of conservation of energy can be used between isolated systems.
The first isolated system is balloon with gas. This system knows nothing about altitude. System has efficiency 100%. Energy from gas decompression equal to gas compression.
It really does not matter which of the four conservative "laws" you choose to use to analyze these two system.
the first, second, third, or the zeroth.
you cannot isolate them from a 3rd conservative system, which includes altitude and atmospheric pressure.
this "100% efficient" adiabatic compression and expansion isolated system has air pressure around it.

You did not include the work function of the atmospheric air pressure. This is a derivative function of gravity and specific mass of the gas molecules, density, and temperature. It can be directly related to the Buoyancy Function of the second system, through an almost identical gravitational derivative.

The two work functions of these separate, isolated systems, are one and the same.
a derivation of the gravitational force.

Quote
For better understanding energy of conservation in first closed system, let's say this system has turbine with alternator and battery to store energy as electricity and electrical compressor for gas compression process. All of this devices and energy transformation process have efficiency 100%.
The balloon with compressed gas and load stay on the ground. In first closed system, gas decompression process is starting. Rotating turbine with alternator generate electricity and store into battery. This stored electrical energy from battery will be used for gas compression process in a future.
Next.
In second closed system, when buoyancy force will be more than force of gravity of balloon with load then balloon starts flying.
Again, the first closed system knows nothing about altitude. In this case energy wat was stored into battery still there, and no matter what height balloon reached.
----> At this point is where energy is not accounted for in your design.
In order to expand the balloon, the air pressure must do work against the atmosphere.
This is evident by the pressure still remaining in the first system after "decompression".
It will balance itself to the atmospheric pressure
In this way, the first system "knows" something about altitude.

Quote
Next.
When balloon reached certain height then In first closed system using electrical energy from battery the compressor will start process of gas compression. It will use all electrical energy to compress gas to same balloon volume. The first system is closed and has efficiency 100%.
Plus extra potential energy of load from certain height.

No.
The balloon will NOT compress to same volume, unless extra energy is used to do so.
At this new certain height, the atmospheric pressure is exponentially less than it was at 'ground level'.
the balloon is pushing outwards against compression with a much greater force at this new altitude.
It is precisely equivalent to the gain in gravitational potential within the atmosphere.

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 03, 2016, 06:05:39 PM
think of it like taking the square root of a square.

2^2 = 4
(sqrt)4 = 2

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 04, 2016, 05:32:31 AM
think of it like taking the square root of a square.

2^2 = 4
(sqrt)4 = 2

Well, the pressure of atmospheric pressure changes by exponential function. However, the potential energy of load has a linear function. Not sure the differential of work against air on on altitude will increase linearly and it won't be equal to potential energy of load.

Looks like this is more complicated then 2x2.
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 04, 2016, 07:02:09 AM
Well, the pressure of atmospheric pressure changes by exponential function. However, the potential energy of load has a linear function. Not sure the differential of work against air on on altitude will increase linearly and it won't be equal to potential energy of load.

Looks like this is more complicated then 2x2.

gravitational force is proportional to the square of the distance?

it's not linear, seconds are squared in the denominator.
9.8 m / s/ s

I was using 2 and 4 because they are the most basic ^2/(sqrt) relationship I could present to you.

you have to understand what energy "is".
you see, momentum is velocity times the mass.
to get from the impact force to the "energy" involved, you need to multiply the velocity again.
E=mc^2, mass *sec * sec is the appropriate format.

gravitational acceleration is to energy as time is to mass.

you accelerate 9.8m per second every second you fall. The longer you fall, the more "energy" is imparted into accelerating the object.

the mass contains x much energy every second the electrons orbit whatever many times per second.

the Buoyant force decreases per second per second, with altitude.

the force over time, across the altitude is the energy, both potential and kinetic.

force over distance is only work, that is not energy until you include the other factor of time.

force over distance over time, or work over time is energy.

The gravitational field is conservative, every way you slice it.
Trust me, I wasted nearly a million dollars of someone elses money chasing this road.
We developed a controlled buoyancy unit (B-unit). which works as intended, but is not overunity.
The energy is clear and stable.
The same gravitational force that causes the atmospheric pressure at ground level, is the same force that causes buoyancy.
Yes - a pressurized gas can be made to expand a vessel, and cause the buoyant effect.

But rest assured, that once it rises to a higher potential, the work you did to make it buoyant, must be done again to make it "unbuoyant".
at no height is there a gravitational potential of the "load", that is greater than the force required to compress the buoyant vessel.

NOW,. if you forsake the gas, and compression energy of the first system, take that as an energy "input" into the total system.
the second system will simply have to release the gas to become unbuoyant.
Now, you have an equilibrium situation. where energy input (to expand the vessel against 1 ATM pressure)
is equal to the gravitational potential energy E=mgh of the total mass of load + balloon.
This is the most efficient manner in which to use these two isolated systems together.

I hope this is making sense to you, because it is very important to understand this, if you are trying to gain something from the gravitational field.

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 04, 2016, 07:24:42 AM
the way to make this system work, as an energy production device....

is to find ways to compress the gas in system 1, with naturally existing pressure differentials.
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 04, 2016, 09:56:37 AM
hmm, I know what you mean, I don't want to say this wrong, and get "chewed"
but here I go again...

power is work done to a mass over time, but not the energy the mass has once the work has been done.

by work, I mean the lifting of the mass, through the gravitational field, over time.
and conversely, the expansion/compression, over time, of the 'balloon' or other suitable vessel.

if you look at "power" as a function of time, then yes, this is not energy. Also, this makes several assumptions about the other time-dependent conditions of the system.... Power is generally considered to be the rate at which energy is expended. Or in relation to force, the rate at which a force is exerted over a distance.

If you consider work, over time, as a force - exerting an energy over both time and distance---
This force is acceleration (9.8m/s/s) times the mass. While objects always accelerate at the same rate, different masses have very different kinetic energies. (from our frame of reference).

Then understand that force is also equal to a change in momentum over a change in time.
Kinetic Energy = P^2/2m

Force over time is a change in momentum. Change in momentum is a change in kinetic energy.
Exactly the inverse, is what stores the potential energy.

gravity is a time-dependent field, not like magnetism, which is purely distance.
to travel faster upwards, requires more energy than traveling upwards slowly.
You must apply a greater force, over a shorter period of time.
Or, in this scenario - inflate the vessel to a greater volume, displacing more air.
Which causes the buoyant force to be greater, and a shorter lift time (also a corresponding higher final height).

the work done by lifting through a gravitational field, over time, gives the mass a final "potential energy" within that field.
[note - you can lift an object to any height at any rate of speed and result in the same final "PE", but the energy spent to get there is time dependent.]
the work done by gravity to the object, over time, as it falls, imparts a final acceleration and velocity, which gives the mass a final "kinetic energy" at the bottom of the field gradient. (ground or starting level)

If nothing else interferes, like wind resistance, or striking other objects, etc....
These two final energy values are said to be the same magnitude.

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 04, 2016, 10:12:49 AM
Newton reverse engineered these equations by dropping lots of heavy objects from every imaginable height.
we're not doing anything new here.
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 04, 2016, 03:29:12 PM
the way to make this system work, as an energy production device....

is to find ways to compress the gas in system 1, with naturally existing pressure differentials.

I think the work against the air pressure should be neglected as kind of friction. As was described the gas expansion and compression processes are equal on same altitude and the closed system has efficiency 100%.
Same for different altitudes. Yes, the pressure of air drops proportionally altitude. But the balloon still goes up in case where buoyancy force more then gravity force. On certain altitude starts gas compression process into balloon using energy from expansion process. On the end of the process the balloon will have a bigger volume than the ballon was initially on the ground. However, the buoyancy force won't enough to hold the load on certain altitude and balloon will loose altitude. On lower altitude the air pressure is bigger than on high altitude. Therefore the current air pressure will compress the balloon. When the ballon will return back to the ground the volume of the ballon will be same when it was on initial stage.
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 04, 2016, 03:45:05 PM
Also, using same concept could use a ferromagnetic material into constant magnet field.
The idea is very simple and mostly the same.
A ferromagnetic material has a closed thermodynamic system inside with efficiency 100%. This system could heat ferromagnetic material higher than Curie point temperature and also cools it, using energy from the heat. The work of ferromagnetic material info magnetic field is an extra energy.
images:
https://somephysicsideas.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/magent_diagram1.png?w=398&h=113
https://somephysicsideas.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/magent_diagram2.png?w=398&h=110

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 04, 2016, 04:28:17 PM
I think the work against the air pressure should be neglected as kind of friction. As was described the gas expansion and compression processes are equal on same altitude and the closed system has efficiency 100%.
Same for different altitudes. Yes, the pressure of air drops proportionally altitude. But the balloon still goes up in case where buoyancy force more then gravity force. On certain altitude starts gas compression process into balloon using energy from expansion process. On the end of the process the balloon will have a bigger volume than the ballon was initially on the ground. However, the buoyancy force won't enough to hold the load on certain altitude and balloon will loose altitude. On lower altitude the air pressure is bigger than on high altitude. Therefore the current air pressure will compress the balloon. When the ballon will return back to the ground the volume of the ballon will be same when it was on initial stage.

the original premise was that the temperature remains constant. therefore, the change in pressure and volume is proportional.

the forces inside and outside of the balloon, are inversely proportional along the altitude scale. changes in pressure on the way down are the opposite of the way up.

What is buoyancy?
It is the difference in pressure, caused by gravity.

Buoyancy is what makes atmospheric pressure.
gravity is more intense at the ground level, which increases the density of the air.
its the same as water pressure with depth. Though the magnitude of the forces is much less, because of the differences in density.

To make buoyant, is to cause a potential in pressure.
Pressure will always try to balance itself out. greater pressure moving to areas of lower pressure.
To move pressure opposite of this flow, is to do "work".

We haven't even begun to look at changes in temperature affecting the contents of the balloon as you rise into the cold sky
That in itself will drain heat energy from the gasses within.

Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 05, 2016, 11:18:31 PM
the original premise was that the temperature remains constant. therefore, the change in pressure and volume is proportional.

the forces inside and outside of the balloon, are inversely proportional along the altitude scale. changes in pressure on the way down are the opposite of the way up.

What is buoyancy?
It is the difference in pressure, caused by gravity.

Buoyancy is what makes atmospheric pressure.
gravity is more intense at the ground level, which increases the density of the air.
its the same as water pressure with depth. Though the magnitude of the forces is much less, because of the differences in density.

To make buoyant, is to cause a potential in pressure.
Pressure will always try to balance itself out. greater pressure moving to areas of lower pressure.
To move pressure opposite of this flow, is to do "work".

We haven't even begun to look at changes in temperature affecting the contents of the balloon as you rise into the cold sky
That in itself will drain heat energy from the gasses within.

Thanks a lot for detailed explanations.
The first closed system is open, because need to count work against air pressure.
I calculated air pressure work for different altitude and it has same value for potential energy of load.
For example
Using this equation for air pressure P=Po*exp(-mu*g*h/RT).
T=293K,R=8.31, g=9.81, mu=0.029, Po=101325, h=1
The dP=11.8383071 PaB
Balloon's volume to raise load 1kg is 0.897585495 m^3
Balloon's volume where buoyancy force = gravity force is 0.067020711 m^3
Using equation dW=dPdV
The work difference against air pressure for altitude difference 1m is
dW=11.8383071*0.830564784=9.83248098J
The potential energy for load 1kg on altitude 1m is
PE=mgh=1*9.81*1=9.81J

Number 9.83248098J close to 9.81J.
I agree, this won't work.
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 05, 2016, 11:21:11 PM
Thanks a lot for detailed explanations.
The first closed system is open, because need to count work against air pressure.
I calculated air pressure work for different altitude and it has same value for potential energy of load.
For example
Using this equation for air pressure P=Po*exp(-mu*g*h/RT).
T=293K,R=8.31, g=9.81, mu=0.029, Po=101325, h=1
The dP=11.8383071 PaB
Balloon's volume to raise load 1kg is 0.897585495 m^3
Balloon's volume where buoyancy force = gravity force is 0.067020711 m^3
Using equation dW=dPdV
The work difference against air pressure for altitude difference 1m is
dW=11.8383071*0.830564784=9.83248098J
The potential energy for load 1kg on altitude 1m is
PE=mgh=1*9.81*1=9.81J

Number 9.83248098J close to 9.81J.
I agree, this won't work.

Excellent!!

Now, you can see that the Buoyant Effect - is a function of Gravity !!!
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 05, 2016, 11:21:59 PM
Here should not be count work against air pressure:)

Also, using same concept could use a ferromagnetic material into constant magnetic field.
The idea is very simple and mostly the same.
A ferromagnetic material has a closed thermodynamic system inside with efficiency 100%. This system could heat ferromagnetic material higher than Curie point temperature and also cools it, using energy from the heat. The work of ferromagnetic material info magnetic field is an extra energy.
images:
https://somephysicsideas.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/magent_diagram1.png?w=398&h=113
https://somephysicsideas.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/magent_diagram2.png?w=398&h=110
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 06, 2016, 01:13:53 PM
Here should not be count work against air pressure:)

Provided you can keep the heat from getting to the other magnet, I see no obvious reason to disclude research along these lines.
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: LibreEnergia on February 06, 2016, 11:32:37 PM
Perpetual Mobile concept. Where is the mistake here?

The mistake is that you are ignoring the second law of thermodynamics. Entropy of a closed a system always increases. A closed system will not spontaneously organise itself to greate a potential gradient be it temperature  or some other potential that can ongoingly produce work.

You talk about a closed system and then introduce the concept of it exchanging energy with another system . By definition the system is no longer closed and you must redraw the system boundaries to include what it is interacting with. If you do that then the second law always applies
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on February 24, 2016, 10:43:04 PM
The mistake is that you are ignoring the second law of thermodynamics. Entropy of a closed a system always increases. A closed system will not spontaneously organise itself to greate a potential gradient be it temperature  or some other potential that can ongoingly produce work.

You talk about a closed system and then introduce the concept of it exchanging energy with another system . By definition the system is no longer closed and you must redraw the system boundaries to include what it is interacting with. If you do that then the second law always applies

Thank you for answer. You're absolutely right about second thermodynamic law. I understood mistakes and I corrected the concept.
This concept is not perpetual motion machine. This concept works on difference of magnetic field of intensity. It does not violate second thermodynamic law, because an entropy stay the same. Also, it does not violate law of conservation energy, because necessary have a magnetic field. Energy should be spent to produce the magnetic field.
All details here:
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/
Title: Re: Perpetual Mobile with compliance of the law of conservation of energy
Post by: abv on March 02, 2016, 10:32:27 PM
I added implementation of this Entropy Engine model using "drinking bird" toy. It should work on temperature of normal condition 300K.
https://somephysicsideas.wordpress.com/2016/02/13/entropy-engine/