Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 523155
  • *Total Topics: 15575
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 1
  • *Guests: 10
  • *Total: 11

Author Topic: How does a rocket work in a vacuum  (Read 15234 times)

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5231
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2016, 05:36:31 AM »
Good to see you started this thread Nink

As you can see, the answers or reasons why a rocket works in the vacuum of space, are the very same ones I gave you in our email conversation before you started this thread.

I am in the process of making my own vacuum chamber.
It will be large enough to test a small rocket powered car in.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2016, 05:36:31 AM »

Offline Nink

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2016, 12:55:28 PM »
Hi Brad

I still don't have an answer.   I have been told  that F=MA and Carroll and NASA say F=MV in space. NASA do not  say F=MA in a vacuum like everyone else here is saying, NASA says F=MV  https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/153415main_Rockets_How_Rockets_Work.pdf  and then NASA make the bold statement "In real rocket science, many other things also come into play" I have no idea what that statement means and I have no data to model this against.   I think we all fully understand F=MA when we are in the presence of an atmosphere or firing a rocket on the ground with earth to push against but I don't understand how we move from F=MA to F=MV, especially when we have no atmosphere and still have the force of gravity to contend with. 

Until we can mathematically model this with actual flight DATA we have no way to prove this.  With the hundreds of rockets launched we should have the starting mass and fuel consumed at every step of the way. This should include the fuel and total mass, height and velocity at the points that the stages were released and the points approaching and directly after the karman line with the data that continues until we are in orbit.  I appreciate that we all say stuff works.  I could say F=MV when we do not have an atmosphere and it can counteract the negative force of gravity as well but that is not going to make it correct.

Unfortunately building a vacuum chamber is of no value for igniting a rocket for multiple reasons.

1) Your vacuum chamber has an internal surface so when you fire your rocket it will push off that surface (molecules push against the side of the vacuum chamber) 
2) It is not possible to build an infinite sized vacuum chamber, any vacuum chamber you build will not allow for free expansion of gas
3) The instant you ignite your rocket gas will be released and fill up that vacuum chamber so you no longer have a vacuum chamber

We need to get the actual DATA and the formulas and plug everything into a spread sheet. Unless we can at minimum mathematically model these theories all we have is ideas.

I have searched youtube and I am unable to find a video of a rocket that goes straight up for 160km to space. They all start off going up straight but as soon as they get above a certain height they turn and go into an arc.  I am not sure if this is an optical illusion or something else.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvMlAqC4bm4 

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5231
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2016, 03:11:15 PM »
Hi Brad



  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvMlAqC4bm4

Quote
I have searched youtube and I am unable to find a video of a rocket that goes straight up for 160km to space. They all start off going up straight but as soon as they get above a certain height they turn and go into an arc.  I am not sure if this is an optical illusion or something else.

Maybe they are going straight up,and only look like they are arcing because the earth is spinning ;)
As your view point is from the spinning earth,the rocket would appear to arc in accordance to that spin. But what if your view point was from a fixed point in space--would the rocket appear to arc then?.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2016, 03:11:15 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Paul-R

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2016, 06:02:55 PM »

I have searched youtube and I am unable to find a video of a rocket that goes straight up for 160km to space.
Surprisingly enough, that is because that is not where they want to go.

Almost every launched vehicle is on its way into orbit which means travelling to a specific height and to a speed of around 18k mph horizontally. Listen to the RT comms which used to go out live. "Stand by to roll" etc.

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2016, 06:25:10 PM »
I would suggest you simply buy a toy water rocket and you would quickly understand that a rocket works from ejecting mass.
If you pump it up with only air it will not work well, but fill it with water (larger mass) and then some air and it works very well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toysmith-Water-Rocket-also-includes-2-Fuel-Funnels-and-Launcher-New-/331413428205?hash=item4d29c797ed:g:WB4AAOSwpDdU7ASb

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2016, 06:25:10 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline LibreEnergia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2016, 09:21:33 PM »
Hi Brad

I still don't have an answer.   I have been told  that F=MA and Carroll and NASA say F=MV in space. NASA do not  say F=MA in a vacuum like everyone else here is saying, NASA says F=MV  https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/153415main_Rockets_How_Rockets_Work.pdf  and then NASA make the bold statement "In real rocket science, many other things also come into play" I have no idea what that statement means and I have no data to model this against.   I think we all fully understand F=MA when we are in the presence of an atmosphere or firing a rocket on the ground with earth to push against but I don't understand how we move from F=MA to F=MV, especially when we have no atmosphere and still have the force of gravity to contend with. 


Have a look carefully at how they state F = MV.  You'll note it is actually written F = M (exit) * V (exit).  They are measuring those quantities as the velocity of the exiting gasses relative to the frame of the rocket.  The mass is being accelerated from  zero to V(exit), so the relationship F = MA is what is providing the thrust. 

It just so happens that the mass flow rate MV is equivalent to MA in this situation since the initial velocity of the accelerated mass is zero.

Offline Nink

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2016, 09:59:51 PM »
I would suggest you simply buy a toy water rocket and you would quickly understand that a rocket works from ejecting mass.
If you pump it up with only air it will not work well, but fill it with water (larger mass) and then some air and it works very well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toysmith-Water-Rocket-also-includes-2-Fuel-Funnels-and-Launcher-New-/331413428205?hash=item4d29c797ed:g:WB4AAOSwpDdU7ASb

LOL now if I can just get into space in the absence of gravity and atmosphere to test how it works.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2016, 09:59:51 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2016, 10:09:52 PM »
LOL now if I can just get into space in the absence of gravity and atmosphere to test how it works.

Or if you could reason that the exiting air would push against the atmosphere as well or better than the water and yet the heavier water works better than air, you could understand that it is in fact the exiting mass that causes acceleration and not the fact that it is pushing on the atmosphere.


Offline LibreEnergia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2016, 10:24:23 PM »
LOL now if I can just get into space in the absence of gravity and atmosphere to test how it works.

Think about a jet boat. They work much better when the jet is exhausted above rather than into the water. If it needed to 'push' on something other than the ejected mass itself this would not be the case.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2016, 10:24:23 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Nink

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2016, 12:10:02 AM »
Think about a jet boat. They work much better when the jet is exhausted above rather than into the water. If it needed to 'push' on something other than the ejected mass itself this would not be the case.
A jet boat has an unlimited supply of water that it draws from underneath the boat.  It then uses Newtons 3rd law of motion by ejecting the water (equal and opposite reaction)  to travel horizontally across  the force of gravity. The water goes one way the boat goes the other. I get it.   

Unfortunately a rocket does not have an unlimited supply of water or fuel or anything to push away from itself to invoke 3rd law of motion and it also has to travel vertically straight up against the force of gravity and not horizontally across the force of gravity. A rocket has a limited  supply of fuel it can burn to generate thrust and that fuel is quickly exhausted. By the time the rocket reaches 100km (if it even reaches that height) and the multiple stages of the rocket that contain the fuel have been exhausted and separated from the rest of the rocket and now with out fuel to push out I still have no idea how it travels the next 60km straight up into space.

As I continue to state everyone has great theories but that is all they are, theories and a theory needs to be proven.

This is basic high school physics. Although NASA may say Don't worry this is rocket science we can quickly verify the facts with data.  WE NEED THE DATA and without the data we are just making stuff up.

Offline tinman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5231
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2016, 12:30:15 AM »
A jet boat has an unlimited supply of water that it draws from underneath the boat.  It then uses Newtons 3rd law of motion by ejecting the water (equal and opposite reaction)  to travel horizontally across  the force of gravity. The water goes one way the boat goes the other. I get it.   

Unfortunately a rocket does not have an unlimited supply of water or fuel or anything to push away from itself to invoke 3rd law of motion and it also has to travel vertically straight up against the force of gravity and not horizontally across the force of gravity. A rocket has a limited  supply of fuel it can burn to generate thrust and that fuel is quickly exhausted. By the time the rocket reaches 100km (if it even reaches that height) and the multiple stages of the rocket that contain the fuel have been exhausted and separated from the rest of the rocket and now with out fuel to push out I still have no idea how it travels the next 60km straight up into space.

As I continue to state everyone has great theories but that is all they are, theories and a theory needs to be proven.

This is basic high school physics. Although NASA may say Don't worry this is rocket science we can quickly verify the facts with data.  WE NEED THE DATA and without the data we are just making stuff up.

Like all machines both here on earth,and out in space-->once you run out of fuel,then the force moving that machine stop's. But in space,you have no resistance,and so the machine will maintain it's maximum velocity reached -until it encounters another force that impacts it's motion.

If the rocket ran out of fuel before it reached a point of either orbit or had escaped the earths gravity field,then it would simply be pulled back down to earth,and impact the surface. As they do not do that(mostly :D),then we can assume that one of the two above is true.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2016, 12:30:15 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline LibreEnergia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2016, 12:41:01 AM »

Unfortunately a rocket does not have an unlimited supply of water or fuel or anything to push away from itself to invoke 3rd law of motion and it also has to travel vertically straight up against the force of gravity and not horizontally across the force of gravity. A rocket has a limited  supply of fuel it can burn to generate thrust and that fuel is quickly exhausted. By the time the rocket reaches 100km (if it even reaches that height) and the multiple stages of the rocket that contain the fuel have been exhausted and separated from the rest of the rocket and now with out fuel to push out I still have no idea how it travels the next 60km straight up into space.


Rockets destined for orbit do not go straight up, except initially.  The trajectory curves over and flys parallel to the earth. Once it runs out of fuel the thrust stops. If it has not reached orbital velocity by that time then it will come back down to earth.

 In orbit the rocket is always "falling towards earth". It's just that it's tangential velocity is high enough for it to always miss.

Offline Nink

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2016, 02:12:59 AM »
If the rocket ran out of fuel before it reached a point of either orbit or had escaped the earths gravity field,then it would simply be pulled back down to earth,and impact the surface. As they do not do that(mostly :D),then we can assume that one of the two above is true.

Brad
I am really confused when I watch a video of the Apollo Launch with stages ejected and the last height reading is 92.8km before they cut the camera just as they are about to cross the Karman line as it is approaching the edge of the atmosphere. The rocket is a lot lighter now then when we launched and there is a velocity of 2880 m/s but we are only 60% of the way to low earth orbit at 160km where as you say we no longer need fuel to maintain velocity. But how much fuel do we have left to get from that point to escape the pull of gravity  (ignoring the fact I don't believe the propulsion method used to take us to the 92.8 km  point will work past the 100km point as there is no atmosphere).    We also don't need to worry about the fuel to get to the moon, land on the moon, take off from the moon and fly back to earth since neither of us believe that part happened. 

Does anyone have all the data  for this trip.  The person calling out the data is different than what is on the display,


 Example
Video time  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0Yd-GxJ_QM&feature=youtu.be&t=48
+30 seconds syncs clocks Says 30 second shows 30 seconds

but video time  https://youtu.be/F0Yd-GxJ_QM?t=74
at 56 second mark says altitude  2 miles but screen says 5.06 km but that is actually 3.2 miles

now
Video time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0Yd-GxJ_QM&t=1m35s
Says 2195 ft / s
Screen  460 m/s   
Convert 669 m/s

Video time https://youtu.be/F0Yd-GxJ_QM?t=127
Says 4000 ft /s    
Screen 1040 m/s 
Convert 1219 m/s

Video time https://youtu.be/F0Yd-GxJ_QM?t=201

Syncs clocks
Says 3 minutes
screen 3 min 3 seconds

says range 70 miles
convert range 112km

Says altitude 43 miles
convert 69km
screen says 87km
 
says 9300  f/t per second
convert 2834 m/s
screen 2870 m/s

Offline Nink

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2016, 03:10:22 AM »
Maybe they are going straight up,and only look like they are arcing because the earth is spinning ;)
As your view point is from the spinning earth,the rocket would appear to arc in accordance to that spin. But what if your view point was from a fixed point in space--would the rocket appear to arc then?.

Brad

I checked your theory with the voice over data (I ignored the screen data) looks like you are correct.  Earth is spinning at 1,674.4 km/h https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_rotation  and at the 3.06 mark we can use the voice data. Quick bit of trigonometry the earth should have rotated 85km at that time math for rocket shows 88km so there could be a slight margin of error on vertical tragectory but I think you are right.  Rocket travels straight up but earth rotates below it. At least until the 69km mark.  What worries me is if the voice data is correct and screen data is wrong we are now only at 69km altitude we still have 91km to go until LOE.

Math works but we need data. 


Offline allcanadian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1317
Re: How does a rocket work in a vacuum
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2016, 08:22:28 AM »
@Nink
Quote
I still don't have an answer.   I have been told  that F=MA and Carroll and NASA say F=MV in space. [/size]NASA do not  say F=MA in a vacuum like everyone else here is saying, NASA says F=MV[/size] [/size]https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/153415main_Rockets_How_Rockets_Work.pdf[/font][/size]  and then NASA make the bold statement[/size]"In real rocket science, many other things also come into play"[/size] I have no idea what that statement means and I have no data to model this against.   I think we all fully understand F=MA when we are in the presence of an atmosphere or firing a rocket on the ground with earth to push against but I don't understand how we move from F=MA to F=MV, especially when we have no atmosphere and still have the force of gravity to contend with.  [/size]




Many times people give a textbook answer however fundamentally they do not actually understand what it means. I believe the word you are looking for is Inertia which is why a mass resists changes in motion.


Imagine you are on a boat and you throw a bowling ball to the left which makes the boat go to the right. Some may say it is the Mass Acceleration or the exchange there of but this does not really explain anything. Others may say it is the conservation of momentum or MV=MV but again this really does not explain anything fundamentally. In our boat example when you throw/push the bowling ball to the left the inertia of the ball resists your pushing force to accelerate it which produces a force in the opposite direction on you thus you and the boat move to the right.


From your question I think you are looking for more and this is a good sign even if most here cannot see the problem. The bowling ball cannot resist anything and it cannot produce a counter-force on you nor the boat and there is no momentum exchange. To do so implies some mysterious force we call Inertia has caused the mass to act on itself in itself which violates the laws of physics. An object cannot act on nothing or act on itself however when we speak of Inertia which is the cause of momentum and a property of mass this is exactly what we are saying hence all the confusion. As I said it is a very good sign that you see the problem and have questioned it.


What is Inertia?. Let's think about this, I am in space and I push on my bowling ball and it resists my pushing force somehow producing a counter force on me in the opposite direction. Some say the ball is pushing off me just as I am pushing off it but this is not correct and two wrongs do not make a right. If the ball had no inertia then it would move and I would not move at all. The property of inertia is not a property of mass but a property of the space the mass occupies. In a nutshell all the electromagnetic waves in the universe which fill every space everywhere act on each individual particle of the object or mass influencing it's motion. This also relates to the supposedly mass-less particles which have no inertia and really confuse the hell out of everyone. What they are actually saying is the particle lacks a property by which they measure the mass which is of course Inertia. A mass may seem to resist a change in motion by apparently acting on nothing or acting on itself however intuitively we know this cannot be true.


This also relates to why Einstein said- nothing happens until something moves, also when something moves the whole universe moves with it...literally. People don't like to talk about Inertia because they find it disturbing. You see if people actually understood what it is fundamentally then we could modify or negate this external influence on matter. A mass with no inertia would take almost no energy to accelerate to any velocity. Obviously this is a real problem for many psychologically which is why Inertia is generally considered a taboo subject.


AC


 

OneLink