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Author Topic: Moon Walkers.  (Read 42719 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2016, 02:53:56 PM »
Quote from PW

Quote
Don't bother, the questions were rhetorical.  It seems rather apparent that you have never done any design work for life critical systems or flight/spaceflight rated systems.  If you believe human spaceflight is such a piece of cake, perhaps you should consider consulting for, or at least setting straight, the likes of Elon Musk or Sir Richard.  That you think it is so easy and a bunch of "rubbish" borders on delusions of grandeur.

I am not delusional ,thank you very much.
I have never said that i could,or have the ability to design or build spaceflight rated systems,but at the age of 27,my self and a friend designed and built an ultralight aircraft,and that flew quite fine.

What i did claim(and still do),is that i could build a lunar rover for half the cost that NASA paid for each of theirs. There is nothing special about the lunar rover's. The assumption that they must have been some great feat of engineering because they must work in the partial vacuum of space is just wrong.

Before we get started on this part of the subject,lets come to some sort of agreement of the temperatures on both the moon surface,in the shade/shadow's,and in direct sun light. We should also both come to the agreement that there is no convection of heat on the moon,due to no atmosphere/due to the vacuum of space on the moon. But we would also agree that heat can be transferred by means of conduction.

As far as i can find,---Temperatures on the moon swing from 120 degrees Celsius (248 degrees Fahrenheit) by day to minus 150 degrees Celsius (minus 238 degrees Fahrenheit) by night.

That information in it self raises some interesting question's--like how did the astronauts stay warm at night?. But we'll leave that for later. For now,lets get as accurate as we can on temperatures in direct sun light on the moon.-->surface temperature-what temperature would metal objects reach in direct sun light-what temperatures would be seen on metal objects/components when shaded by other objects. Once we have these number's,then maybe you will see!!not only!! how easy it is to design the vehicle,but also some other things that just dont add up !once again!

I am going to go as far as building a decent size vacuum chamber(as large as funds permit). With this,we can carry out many test to confirm what dose and dose not happen in a vacuum. One of the test i cant wait to carry out,is to see if any blast crater is created when a rocket engine gets close to a dusty dry surface in a vacuum. But that will be some ways down the track. I already have the vacuum pump,so need to gather the vessel,gauges,and super thick plexiglass face plate.

Anyway-what temperatures do you believe are the values to that i posted above ?.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2016, 02:53:56 PM »

Offline picowatt

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2016, 03:13:57 PM »
Well apparently there is no problem with the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter launched on August 12, 2005, . The picture is of a track left after a boulder rolled down a hill !apparently!. The boulder is said to be about only 3.5 meters wide.

Out of every satellite and telescope ever launched,not one has the capability to take a clear shot of any of the equipment left behind on the moon by the moon walkers--not one. Even other countries that have sent satellites and rovers to the moon have never taken one clear picture of any of the equipment left behind by the U.S.

Tinman,

Although I have not looked at the MRO specs, the MRO image you posted looks to have a resolution similar to or a bit less than that of the Apollo 11 image TK posted.  3.5 meters is very close to the LEM dimensions.  I do know that the same Kodak image sensor used on the LROC is also used on the Mars rover.

In the MRO image you posted, where is the boulder?  Would you be able to tell there even is, or was, a boulder without an imaging expert telling you that is what it is? 

Take a look at your airport photo.  Zoom in on the tug in front of the most centrally located aircraft.  Would you be able to tell that is a tug without already knowing what it is?

Very few countries have placed anything into lunar orbit and captured images, let alone at the resolution of LROC.  Like building a lunar rover, you underestimate the difficulty of the task and under appreciate the results achieved.

Even if we had higher resolution imagery of the Apollo sites, people like you would likely just claim those images to be fake.  In the future, when another country or private venture is able to capture better images, you would likely claim those entities are also in on "the great conspiracy".  And if you were able to fly to the moon and see the landing sites for yourself, you would likely claim they have just been staged and placed there.

Even though you have provided no credible evidence to support your assertions that the Apollo missions did not happen, what, exactly, would you accept as proof that the Apollo missions did happen?  What evidence would be sufficient to change what has become your "beliefs"?

PW

Offline picowatt

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2016, 04:01:44 PM »
There is nothing special about the lunar rover's. The assumption that they must have been some great feat of engineering because they must work in the partial vacuum of space is just wrong.

Like I said, the cost of the hardware to actually build the rovers was insignificant compared to the cost to design, test, and certify the operation of the rovers.  Please don't feel the need to start spouting what you believe to be a rover design suitable for launch to and operation on the moon.   Do you seriously think yourself qualified to perform even the thermodynamic analysis necessary to design your thermal management system?  Do you know how innovative and yet elegantly simple the rover's thermal management system was?

The fact that you cannot see the engineering marvels used in the deigns of the very simple lunar rover used during Apollo only indicates that you do not understand the difficulty of the task.  Look how long China's recent robotic lunar rover was able to move about before it failed. 

That you "think" you could do better or cheaper has no bearing on whether Apollo did or did not happen and only erodes your credibility.

 
Quote
   

Before we get started on this part of the subject,lets come to some sort of agreement of the temperatures on both the moon surface,in the shade/shadow's,and in direct sun light.

I need to get some work done, so I likely won't be wasting much more time on this subject.

But, how about before YOU go any further you address the refutation of your claims regarding the Van Allen belts?

What you stated was simply not true and yet you just continue on as if it were.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 08:27:30 PM by picowatt »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2016, 04:01:44 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2016, 04:27:32 PM »

Before we get started on this part of the subject,lets come to some sort of agreement of the temperatures on both the moon surface,in the shade/shadow's,and in direct sun light. We should also both come to the agreement that there is no convection of heat on the moon,due to no atmosphere/due to the vacuum of space on the moon. But we would also agree that heat can be transferred by means of conduction.

Conduction to what?  You could conduct some heat away to the lunar surface, but the lunar soil/dust is said to not be a very good conductor of heat. 

Quote
As far as i can find,---Temperatures on the moon swing from 120 degrees Celsius (248 degrees Fahrenheit) by day to minus 150 degrees Celsius (minus 238 degrees Fahrenheit) by night.

I've seen figures stated as extreme as  +/- 200C (+392 to -328F)

Quote
That information in it self raises some interesting question's--like how did the astronauts stay warm at night?.

This question can only be asked from a position of extreme ignorance of the subject matter.

Perhaps you should take the time to learn a bit more about the Apollo missions before trying to prove they did not happen...

PW

Offline ramset

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2016, 05:28:48 PM »
Johan 1955 says
quote

The Netherlands are best friends with US!


So we did get a very special gift in the sixties from our liberating friends, only Russia did do the job:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8226075.stm


--------------
things like the above don't help the cause

I have been unable to get any good pics from earth bound mountain top observatories.

plenty of Guys on you tube seem to get nice clear images with small private scopes, although I have seen
very close Horizon images [albeit blurry] from Private astronomers .

it would seem radio imaging from an earth observatory could get very good feedback from the metal artifacts left on the lunar surface ?

where's all the good Moon pics ?
do you have any idea how much interest NASA [or whomever] could generate if we pointed the Hubble scope at the Moon for some close ups so the kids could see the old sites ?
some 8x10 glossy's of the old Landers and buggy's

talk about getting the wallet out for space exploration ??

seems the moon is too Boring ?

I have been unable to find any pics from an observatory on earth which are any better that a good hobby scope [albeit an expensive scope]

something is screwy and its causing the younger generations that were not around during this time  to suspect this was fake
or something else.

you must admit 40 -50 years  ??  dropped like a hot potatoe....
that's the real problem here IMHO.






Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2016, 05:28:48 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2016, 05:54:10 PM »
Johan 1955 says
quote
The Netherlands are best friends with US!

So we did get a very special gift in the sixties from our liberating friends, only Russia did do the job:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8226075.stm
---
things like the above don't help the cause

No, they don't.

But consider this.  You've had a piece of moon rock proudly displayed sitting on a shelf in a cabinet at home for many years.  You grew old and died.  The administrators of your estate estate finds out the item on the shelf is actually fake.

Now, in your mind, is it not likely that as you grew old, a caregiver, lawyer, nephew etc, realized the amount of money some private collector would be willing to pay for that item and might have taken the rock and replaced it with something that looked fairly similar?  After all, you as an old man probably did not look at it very much any more, and if you did, well, your eyes had become a bit older too.   

Many moon rocks have been stolen or just come up missing over the years.  Even NASA employees have been arrested for stealing moon rocks.  It is almost always because of what someone is willing to pay for them. 


Quote
where's all the good Moon pics ?

There are plenty of moon "pics".  Have you looked for them?  Check out NASA...

Quote
do you have any idea how much interest NASA [or whomever] could generate if we pointed the Hubble scope at the Moon for some close ups so the kids could see the old sites ?

The Hubble is not suited for looking at the moon with greater resolution than LROC.

The best images to date of the Apollo landing sites are from LROC and what you have seen is as good as it gets (the image TK recently posted for example).

PW

Offline ramset

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2016, 06:03:45 PM »
Soo the Old moon rock switcheroo conspiracy theory   8)    perfectly plausible

I suppose the "Good as it gets" Moon pics from NASA are a bit odd to the general population with_ images_
of Nebulas and such at unimaginable distances ?

And generating images from radio or other methods doesn't seem to be available for the moon lander locations ..


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2016, 06:03:45 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2016, 06:07:29 PM »
Soo the Old moon rock switcheroo conspiracy theory   8)    perfectly plausible

I suppose the "Good as it gets" Moon pics from NASA are a bit odd to the general population with_ images_
of Nebulas and such at unimaginable distances ?

With that "general population" apparently not understanding why, or even realizing, that the resolution of the lunar images made by LROC is much, much better than the resolution of those Nebulae images...

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2016, 06:44:16 PM »
Here a more elaborate newspaper article about the Dutch fake moon rock:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2009-09-14-moon-rock_N.htm

"The real Dutch moon rocks are in a natural history museum."

So, is this the true story of the Dutch Moon rocks? I do not know, but it shows that one should not make conspiracy theories  from newspaper articles. Many articles are just hearsay or misinterpretations or misrepresentations of the truth.

About good pictures from the stuff left on the moon:

Whatever NASA provides, the conspiracy believers will not be satisfied. Everything can in theory be faked and there will always be people who claim that it is a fake, however good the proof is. And why should NASA provide proof, just because a few crazies demand it?

Why nobody has gone back to the moon:

The moon race was important politics at that time. The US wanted to prove that they can do better than the Russians. This goal has vanished, because the space race was won too easily by the US. There was and still is no more need to prove anything. The Russians have been defeated by themselves and the US is doing everything possible at the moment to copy that (just look at the presidential candidates and how the middle class has ben wiped out in the last decades).

It makes little sense to do the moon landings again unless one can build permanent buildings on the moon and have people there for months and years. And this is still not feasible.

All commercial interest in space is directed towards earth orbits (communication satellites, navigation satellites). Even most scientific interests are in earth orbit (measuring and photographing many things globally on the earth). Military interests are in earth orbits; the enemy is on earth not out in space.

Sending men beyond earth orbit is still not feasible in a useful way, and therefore it is not happening.

Too many problems have materialized on earth: financial crisis, economic crisis, political crisis because the "free market economy" is not providing what was promised for many decades, a global disillusionment concerning manned space travel has happened.

It turned out that sending men far into space is much more costly and technologically difficult than one thought back in 1960 to 1975. Much more progress is still necessary than one thought. May be autonomous robotic devices can do better space travel than people?

These are much more valid reasons than a conspiracy!

But conspiracy theories are cheap to come up with and can be sold easily. One can never beat conspiracy developers and conspiracy believers, they will be with us forever.

Conspiracy developers and believers are like OU developers and believers: they demand that one proves them wrong. This is a reversal of duty. They have to provide very good proof that they are right.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2016, 06:44:16 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2016, 08:30:37 PM »
Like I said, the cost of the hardware to actually build the rovers was insignificant compared to the cost to design, test, and certify the operation of the rovers.  Please don't start spouting what you believe to be a rover design suitable for launch to and operation on the moon. 

The fact that you cannot see the engineering marvels used in the deigns of the very simple lunar rover used during Apollo only indicates that you do not understand the difficulty of the task.  Look how long China's recent robotic lunar rover was able to move about before it failed. 

That you "think" you could do better or cheaper has no bearing on whether Apollo did or did not happen and only erodes your credibility.

 
I need to get some work done, so I likely won't be wasting much more time on this subject.



Quote
But, how about before YOU go any further you address the refutation of your claims regarding the Van Allen belts?
What you stated was simply not true and yet you just continue on as if it were.

I have posted video's of both the ISS commander ,and a NASA engineer that have both said that we cannot yet traverse the van allen belt's. Perhaps you go argue with them?.
I have also posted video's of the apollo astronaut's that had no clue as to weather they went through the van allen belt's or not--are you going to argue these two point's ?.

 
Quote
Do you seriously think yourself qualified to perform even the thermodynamic analysis necessary to design your thermal management system?  Do you know how innovative and yet elegantly simple the rover's thermal management system was?

As you guys often say-->you can see the forest for the tree's.
Do you know how innovative and yet elegantly simple the rover's thermal management system was

Yes i do. It was about as innovative as the photographic paper the picture below was printed on,and the plastic bag it was wrapped in.

Quote: I've seen figures stated as extreme as +/- 200C (+392 to -328F)

Well if a picture and plastic bag can survive those temperatures,then how can you say that thermal control is an issue.
Time and time again,NASA shoots them self in the foot,and shows us evidence time and time again that the moon landings were a hoax. But no matter what evidence any one provides that clearly shows the whole thing was a hoax,you (and others) turn a blind eye to it all--as you must believe it was real,regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

So how is it that the picture that Charles Duke placed on the moon dose not shrivel up PW,if temperatures are as high as you have posted.?

Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2016, 08:42:29 PM »
So i have found a site that has all of NASA's high res pictures--with large zoom capabilities.
This is a treasure trove to the researchers out there.

Below is a couple of high res close up's of the lunar landers of Apollo 16 and 17.
I mean ,just have a look at these wrecks :o ::). Are you truly trying to tell us that these wrecks carried man to and from the moon?-->i mean REALLY lol. This has to be some sort of joke :P
Square cut unfinished corners of sheet metal--the flooring base looks like corrugated zincalume sheeting from some farmers hay shed--all the seems are coming apart-->i mean,just look at the wrecks.
And you have the balls to say that i couldnt design and build a vehicle that could opperate in the vacuum of space.
All NASA's millions to build the best of the best :o-yea right--looks like it. ::) ::)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2016, 08:42:29 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2016, 08:51:01 PM »
Now for the stolen lunar lander.
Below-the first pic is of the lunar lander in it's landing position.
The second pic is taken from a further distance--notice any thing missing in the second picture.
I have attached the mission and image number,so as you can go check your self. There is also 3 other high resolution pictures from different angles that also show no sign of the lunar lander.

So if some one thumped the lunar escape module,how did the astronauts get off the moon.
Yea ,i know it sounds just stupid,but the facts are in the pictures provided by NASA them self.

Offline picowatt

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2016, 09:43:57 PM »
Tinman,

Based on the two photos being from different EVA's and film magazines,
and with different sun elevation angles, I would say the issue is merely one of perspective
and viewing direction.  You may believe that the mountains in the background are the same
ones, but looking at them closely, I am not so sure.  Also notice the difference in the slope
of the ground.  I am not sure what you believe these images prove.

Here is the data I was able to find regarding the images.  With regard to the "Description" line,
I would have to do more research to decipher what is provided, perhaps you have the time to do so.


Data for AS17-146-22388

Image Collection:    70mm Hasselblad
Mission:    17
Magazine:    146
Magazine Letter:    F
Lens Focal Length:    60 mm
Sun Elevation:    37°
Mission Activity:    EVA 3
Description:    STA 8; LUNAR ROVING VEHICLE; LUNAR MODULE PILOT
Film Type:    SO-368
Film Width:    70 mm
Film Color:    color


Data for AS17-134-20435

Image Collection:    70mm Hasselblad
Mission:    17
Magazine:    134
Magazine Letter:    B
Lens Focal Length:    60 mm
Sun Elevation:    17°
Mission Activity:    EVA 1
Description:    STA SEP; SURFACE ELECTRICAL PROPERTIES EXPERIMENT; PARTIAL PAN; LUNAR ROVING VEHICLE
Film Type:    SO-368
Film Width:    70 mm
Film Color:    color

Offline picowatt

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2016, 10:00:20 PM »
I have posted video's of both the ISS commander ,and a NASA engineer that have both said that we cannot yet traverse the van allen belt's. Perhaps you go argue with them?.
I have also posted video's of the apollo astronaut's that had no clue as to weather they went through the van allen belt's or not--are you going to argue these two point's ?.

 
As you guys often say-->you can see the forest for the tree's.

Yes, very nice "quote mining".  If you really wanted to do your case justice, you would find a transcript or video of the entire interviews, etc, and not provide snippets taken out of context and posted in a video by someone who apparently doesn't even believe the ISS is real.   

Quote
Do you know how innovative and yet elegantly simple the rover's thermal management system was

Yes i do. It was about as innovative as the photographic paper the picture below was printed on,and the plastic bag it was wrapped in.

Your lack of appreciation for the rover's engineering astounds me.  Go for it, show us your thermal management calculations and engineering solutions.  I know I would not be able to pull that off without seeking out the consultation of appropriate engineers and scientists capable af answering a lot of design related questions regarding conditions on the lunar surface and those experienced during launch.

I would think that an "active" or "passive" mechanical engineer such as yourself (whatever that actually means) should be able to appreciate what goes into a design like the rover.  Even an appreciation for the complexity involved in just designing an appropriate "shake and bake" test seems to escape you.

Quote


Quote: I've seen figures stated as extreme as +/- 200C (+392 to -328F)

Well if a picture and plastic bag can survive those temperatures,then how can you say that thermal control is an issue.
Time and time again,NASA shoots them self in the foot,and shows us evidence time and time again that the moon landings were a hoax. But no matter what evidence any one provides that clearly shows the whole thing was a hoax,you (and others) turn a blind eye to it all--as you must believe it was real,regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

So how is it that the picture that Charles Duke placed on the moon dose not shrivel up PW,if temperatures are as high as you have posted.?

I stated what the temperature "extremes" of the Moon in general are.  Based on the numbers you gave, that is what I thought you were asking about.  I would have to consult with an appropriate thermodynamic engineer if you wanted to know the temperature of a specific object of given surface characteristics and at a given sun angle in the lunar environment. 

As far as the surface temperature where the photo is placed, I do not know what it was at that specific time, do you?  However, like asking about how the astronauts survived at "night", if you did a bit of research, some of this would be way more obvious to you.

However, regarding that image of a photo on the surface of the moon, I am sure it looks a bit different now if it is still there.  But at the time it was taken, how long had it been on the surface and what did you think should have happened in that time period?  Are you just guessing about those answers or do you have some kind of evidence that a photo wrapped in plastic with a given reflectance and in a particular solar flux in the lunar vacuum placed on the lunar surface for "X" amount of time prior to being photographed should have done what? 

You are reaching for straws.


Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2016, 11:26:31 PM »
Brad/tinman

The two picture of the rover are from two different direction and. Note the second photo that doesn't sown the lander show a foothill on the second mountain. No smoking gun there. Also for the flimsy lander that they are famous for due to weight constraints. Don't overlook shielding of some sort.

Alan 

 

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