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Author Topic: Moon Walkers.  (Read 43838 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2016, 12:19:28 PM »
 author=MileHigh link=topic=16359.msg472372#msg472372 date=1453872631





Quote
If, when you discuss this topic, you could put a coherent sentence together that makes sense and demonstrates you are aware of what the issues are, it would make a huge difference.

Dido
Quote
The impact energy of an identical mass hitting the Earth or the moon will be the same if the two impact velocities are the same.  It's rocket science.

But they are not the same-are they MH. Lets have a look at what you said.

Quote
Because the 170-pound astronaut and the 120-pound space suit form a 290-pound "ground thumper" that hits the ground for every bounce.  That makes the ground shake, a small portion of the energy from the bounce makes the flag pole rattle.

Day in/day out,you insist on people here making accurate measurements,and posting accurate data,and yet look what you posted above to try and bring some sort of validity to your earth quake theory. The reality is MH,the combined weight on the moon is 47.85lb. You were over 600% out with your weights.Then you say--

Quote
And the frustrating part is that you never even considered this possibility, just like many of the other poor hapless moon conspiracy theorists.  They desperately need that "dummies" book.
The answer to that one is staring you in the face.

It was not considered because it is just plain wrong,and stupid.
And then once again-even after i corrected you,you go and make the same mistake again--

Quote
The astronaut and space suit with a combined mass of about 130 kilograms hitting the ground from a jump will impart an impulse of a certain amount of energy into the ground.  How much energy is irrelevant, the only thing that counts is that that impulse of energy traveled through the lunar surface and made the pole and the flag attached to the pole shake.  It's staring you in the face.

No MH--NO. The combined weight is 21.45kg's(now that you have gone metric),not 130kg's as you are trying to imply. And once again,the answer is staring me in the face lol.Then once again--

Quote
The moon's gravity has "nothing to do with it" because you can ignore it and still make a valid case.  Even if there is no gravity, if a 130 kg mass hits the ground at a certain speed there will be a big thud.

No no MH,it is a 21.45 kg mass hitting the ground,and in slow motion like all the video's from NASA show. The impact force will be 600% less than what you are trying to peddle.

And again--

Quote
I will repeat to you that you bringing up the equivalent weight of the astronaut in the moon's gravitational field is ridiculous because the important thing to realize is that it's the combined mass of the astronaut and his space suit that counts and not his weight.  If you can't acknowledge this then you are just being ridiculous.

Have you completely lost your marbles MH?
The mass may be the same on the moon as it is on earth,but the weight is not due to the lower gravity on the moon. So where will this mass make a bigger impact when dropped from say 1/2 meter? Will the impact energy be greater on earth or on the moon?. If you cant work that out,then you had better throw away those books.--and you say im being ridiculous ::)

The answer was staring me in the face was it MH?. But you turned tail on what you claimed to be the only logical explanation,and felt so strongly that your earth/moon quake man was what was causing the flag to waver. PW pulled the string,and you moved-moved away from your theory that you deem'd so sound, in a flash-->without even bothering to take the time to see if PW's explanation was plausible.

I hope i never have some one like you watching my back if we ever have to go to war.

Quote
If you disagree with what PW said about the sublimation of the ice then make your case.

I will leave this for the next post. Did you even bother to do some research of your own MH?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2016, 12:19:28 PM »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2016, 01:24:22 PM »
Yes, Brad, you have serious issues with communicating properly.  Stuff remains locked up inside your head and you don't express it properly and just blindly assume that what you think the debate is about is what is locked up inside your head.  Even if somebody else raised the issue, it doesn't matter, and like magic you expect everybody else to just be able to read your mind and figure out what you are really talking about.  Everybody is supposed to have a Secret Brad Decoder Ring.

The problem is that the real world doesn't work like that and you have to get with a program to learn to stop inventing your own version of a debate while keeping it locked up in your head.  You have to start learning to not change the parameters of a debate in your mind, and to express yourself properly.

Here is what is locked up inside your head:  It's a grade 10 Physics question.  Two objects of the same mass of 130 kilograms are dropped from 1/2 meter onto the ground.  One mass is in the Earth's gravitational field, and the other mass is the moon's gravitational field.  Calculate the final velocities of the two objects, how much time it takes for each object to fall, and the amount of kinetic energy in each object the moment before hitting the ground.

That is a trivial problem and I solved it in grade 10.

The problem is that is NOT what the debate is about, period.

I simply said that an astronaut and his space suit hitting the surface of the moon could create a localized tremor in the surface material and that could make the flag move.

I was NOT making any reference to a grade 10 physics problem.  I was NOT concerned with the final velocity.  I was NOT concerned with the different gravitational accelerations between the Earth and the moon.

The only relevant point is that it is the MASS of the astronaut and space suit that determines the energy in the ground thump, and NOT the weight.  You clearly still don't understand that point.

I intentionally switched from pounds to kilograms because pounds is a wishy-washy English unit that can mean weight or mass, whereas kilograms is universally understood to mean MASS ONLY.  Clearly you were not aware of that, as in, "The combined weight is 21.45kg's(now that you have gone metric)."

Here is another "lost your marbles" quote from you, "The mass may be the same on the moon as it is on earth,but the weight is not due to the lower gravity on the moon."

Here is another "lost your marbles" quote, "The reality is MH,the combined weight on the moon is 47.85lb. You were over 600% out with your weights."

How many times do I have to tell you that it's the MASS of the astronaut and spacesuit hitting the surface of the moon and NOT the weight that determines the magnitude of the thump?   The formula is "Energy = 1/2 MASS x Velocity-squared."   Let it sink into your head.

For good measure, another "lost your marbles" quote, "No no MH,it is a 21.45 kg mass hitting the ground."


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2016, 01:34:23 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2016, 01:44:00 PM »
To sound coherent you can NEVER discuss "kilograms" and "equivalent kilograms in the Moon's gravity."  It makes NO SENSE and you are just showing your ignorance.  This is never ever done.  The term "kilograms weight" which is what you were using sometimes in your discussion is universally frowned upon and basically never used.

Kilograms are MASS and the mass does not change ever, irrespective of the strength of the gravity field.  When you want to discuss the equivalent weight then you use Newtons.  A mass of 1 kilogram weighs X Newtons in the Earth's gravity and Y Newtons in the moon's gravity.




Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2016, 01:52:33 PM »
Yes, Brad, you have serious issues with communicating properly.  Stuff remains locked up inside your head and you don't express it properly and just blindly assume that what you think the debate is about is what is locked up inside your head.  Even if somebody else raised the issue, it doesn't matter, and like magic you expect everybody else to just be able to read your mind and figure out what you are really talking about.  Everybody is supposed to have a Secret Brad Decoder Ring.

The problem is that the real world doesn't work like that and you have to get with a program to learn to stop inventing your own version of a debate while keeping it locked up in your head.  You have to start learning to not change the parameters of a debate in your mind, and to express yourself properly.

Here is what is locked up inside your head:  It's a grade 10 Physics question.  Two objects of the same mass of 130 kilograms are dropped from 1/2 meter onto the ground.  One mass is in the Earth's gravitational field, and the other mass is the moon's gravitational field.  Calculate the final velocities of the two objects, how much time it takes for each object to fall, and the amount of kinetic energy in each object the moment before hitting the ground.

That is a trivial problem and I solved it in grade 10.

The problem is that is NOT what the debate is about, period.

I simply said that an astronaut and his space suit hitting the surface of the moon could create a localized tremor in the surface material and that could make the flag move.

I was NOT making any reference to a grade 10 physics problem.  I was NOT concerned with the final velocity.  I was NOT concerned with the different gravitational accelerations between the Earth and the moon.

The only relevant point is that it is the MASS of the astronaut and space suit that determines the energy in the ground thump, and NOT the weight.  You clearly still don't understand that point.

I intentionally switched from pounds to kilograms because pounds is a wishy-washy English unit that can mean weight or mass, whereas kilograms is universally understood to mean MASS ONLY.  Clearly you were not aware of that, as in, "The combined weight is 21.45kg's(now that you have gone metric)."

Here is another "lost your marbles" quote from you, "The mass may be the same on the moon as it is on earth,but the weight is not due to the lower gravity on the moon."

Here is another "lost your marbles" quote, "The reality is MH,the combined weight on the moon is 47.85lb. You were over 600% out with your weights."

How many times do I have to tell you that it's the MASS of the astronaut and spacesuit hitting the surface of the moon and NOT the weight that determines the magnitude of the thump?   The formula is "Energy = 1/2 MASS x Velocity-squared."   Let it sink into your head.

For good measure, another "lost your marbles" quote, "No no MH,it is a 21.45 kg mass hitting the ground."

MH-you have finally flipped your lid.
Equal and opposite forces MH. You cannot get more out than you put in.
Fact-less energy is required to lift the same mass to the same height than is required here on earth.
Fact-less energy is returned upon impact on the moon,than it is here on earth.
Fact-the reason for this is,although the mass remains the same,the weight dose not
Fact- The mass equivalent in KG's on the moon is 21.45
!NASA! fact--the hammer and feather fall at the same speed,but the hammer will impact the ground with more energy-Why?--the feather is lighter.
Fact-dropped from the same height,the hammer will impact the ground with more force than it will dropped from the same height on the moon.

You have completely lost the plot if you think that the weight changes nothing,regardless of what the mass is. Not only that,but your earth quake theory is utter rubbish-provable beyond any doubt here on earth where greater impacts are made--due to the greater weight ;)

After i have put PW's theory in the bin,i suspect you will return to your earth quake theory ::)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2016, 01:52:33 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2016, 02:02:52 PM »
Tinman,

That is an optical property of thin films.  Think soap bubbles and oil films on water...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin-film_interference

PW
This explanation dose not fit the picture supplied. The photographs i supplied from the apollo mission show clear and decisive edges of each different color on each piece of tape. The examples you supplied by way of the link you posted show merging colors with undefined blurring transitions.
Below -the first picture shows the effect you are talking of,and the second picture shows the defined color differences between each piece of tape.

Offline Nink

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2016, 02:06:33 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNWs-vlIhdM
 ;)

Nice this guy did the timing for each event comparing known earth (3 seconds for 10 drops), feather hammer(11 seconds for 10 drops) and the accidental rock drop (4 seconds for 10 drops)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dW5rzhtMI


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2016, 02:06:33 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2016, 02:12:36 PM »
MH-you have finally flipped your lid.
Equal and opposite forces MH. You cannot get more out than you put in.
Fact-less energy is required to lift the same mass to the same height than is required here on earth.
Fact-less energy is returned upon impact on the moon,than it is here on earth.
Fact-the reason for this is,although the mass remains the same,the weight dose not
Fact- The mass equivalent in KG's on the moon is 21.45
!NASA! fact--the hammer and feather fall at the same speed,but the hammer will impact the ground with more energy-Why?--the feather is lighter.
Fact-dropped from the same height,the hammer will impact the ground with more force than it will dropped from the same height on the moon.

You have completely lost the plot if you think that the weight changes nothing,regardless of what the mass is. Not only that,but your earth quake theory is utter rubbish-provable beyond any doubt here on earth where greater impacts are made--due to the greater weight ;)

After i have put PW's theory in the bin,i suspect you will return to your earth quake theory ::)

Let me translate this for you Brad into something more coherent.

You are basically stating that the final velocity will be less because you are on the moon.   I already told you that I don't care about the final velocity.

A quote from you, "The mass equivalent in KG's on the moon is 21.45."

Let me translate that for you, "The weight equivalent in KG's on the moon is 21.45."

Can you understand how you have an issue?

The earth quake theory is not "utter rubbish."   If you drop a mass of one kilogram onto the surface of the moon from a height of one meter, where does that energy go?

Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2016, 02:19:48 PM »
I watched the video.  I believe the flag moved due to being hit by the exhaust from the spacesuit sublimator.

In the video, if you can stand listening to the sound track, you will hear NASA say "coming up on water".  The astronauts are being told there EVA must come to an end because the portable life support system (PLSS) is running out of water.

The PLSS used a rebreather and CO2 scrubber.  Oxygen, as a consumable, was rarely the limiting factor regarding EVA time.  However, the suits used a "sublimator" for cooling which consumed water and it was that water which was typically the EVA limiting consumable.

Somewhat simplified, the sublimator forces water thru very tiny pores on the inside of a cylindrical metal plate.  The water freezes.  Warm water from the suits garment layer needing to be cooled is run thru tubes in contact with the plate.  This "melts" and "boils off" (actually, "sublimates") the water (which does so at a lower temp in a vacuum).  A fan is used to purge (blow out) the water vapor from the inside of the cylindrical sublimator.

If I recall correctly, the exhaust for the sublimator is thru a relatively large circular opening in the left side of the PLSS hard shell.

PW

Here are the two reasons it can not be the ejected water from the sublimator unit.

First-in the video,we see the astronaut bouncing past the flag. We clearly see the flag waver as he just passes the flag. If it was the ejected water(now turned into extremely small ice particles due to the rapid expansion of the water mist entering an extreme vacuum hitting the flag,then the flags first motion would be away from the astronaut. As can be clearly seen in the video,the first motion of the flag is toward the astronaut. This reaction is exactly as it would be here on earth.

Second- The pump and fan you speak of is between the middle and left side of the back pack unit. The sublimator units cooling plates run across the top of the PLSS unit. The waste vent is on the right hand side of the unit. On the left side of the PLSS unit,there was provision for an extra bag/luggage storage sack. The first two pictures below show the left side of the PLSS pack,and as can be seen in the first picture,there is no waste vent on the left side. The second picture show the extra luggage sack fitted that would cover any vent. The third picture shows the vent on the right side of the PLSS unit. So this also means that it was no ejected water from the pack that makes the flag waver,as it is on the wrong side.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2016, 02:19:48 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #144 on: January 27, 2016, 02:29:06 PM »
Brad:

Here is a little bonus round that will throw a monkey wrench into the experiment that was locked up inside your head this whole time.

Suppose you are on the Earth and you do a straight jump up from a standing position.  Let's say you put a moderate amount of effort into it and you jump up six inches and then land.

Now, just imagine everything stays the same but the gravity is decreased to the moon's gravity.  This is just a thought experiment.

You jump up with the same amount of effort.  Naturally you will jump up much higher and you have more air time.

So what about the landings in both cases?

The answer is that in both cases you will land with the same speed and therefore you will experience the same force and the energy will be the same.

Now, going back to the moon, we see an astronaut jumping past the flag.  He is hitting the ground with the same amount of force if you imagine him doing the same thing on Earth.

In both cases, the landing back down to the ground is just as hard as the amount of effort you put into making the jump up in the first place.  Except on the moon you have more air time.

The moral of the story is that the jumping astronaut will hit the moon just as hard as if he was jumping on the Earth.

Offline Nink

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #145 on: January 27, 2016, 02:30:33 PM »

I simply said that an astronaut and his space suit hitting the surface of the moon could create a localized tremor in the surface material and that could make the flag move.


A large thump from an astronaut in a space suit on the moon can cause a lot of problems
https://youtu.be/kFAZoVGxqY4?t=108

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #145 on: January 27, 2016, 02:30:33 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #146 on: January 27, 2016, 02:42:41 PM »
A large thump from an astronaut in a space suit on the moon can cause a lot of problems
https://youtu.be/kFAZoVGxqY4?t=108

Yes, the moon conspiracy theorists take simulation footage and dress rehearsal footage and use that as "evidence."

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #147 on: January 27, 2016, 02:44:03 PM »
Sublimation is the transition of a substance directly from the solid to the gas phase without passing through the intermediate liquid phase. Sublimation is an endothermic phase transition that occurs at temperatures and pressures below a substance's triple point in its phase diagram.

Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #148 on: January 27, 2016, 02:44:57 PM »
Let me translate this for you Brad into something more coherent.

You are basically stating that the final velocity will be less because you are on the moon.   I already told you that I don't care about the final velocity.

A quote from you, "The mass equivalent in KG's on the moon is 21.45."

Let me translate that for you, "The weight equivalent in KG's on the moon is 21.45."

Can you understand how you have an issue?



Dear MH

Here on earth we calculate mass using KG's.
As i said-the mass equivalent in KG's on the moon  is 21.45--what part of that do you not understand?. If something weighs 21.45 kg's on the moon,it ruddy mass here on earth will be 130kg's. Is it really that hard for you to understand MH.

The earth quake theory is not "utter rubbish."   If you drop a mass of one kilogram onto the surface of the moon from a height of one meter, where does that energy go?

It is dissipated into the moon.
Your earth quake theory is rubbish--the proof is in the video MH--it staring you right in the face ;)
Did you see any of these earth quake vibrations that were strong enough to make a flag wave,also create even the slightest vibration on the camera that the astronaut was holding ?--didnt think so.

While your at it,work this one out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNWs-vlIhdM

Offline tinman

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Re: Moon Walkers.
« Reply #149 on: January 27, 2016, 02:56:46 PM »
Brad:

Here is a little bonus round that will throw a monkey wrench into the experiment that was locked up inside your head this whole time.

Suppose you are on the Earth and you do a straight jump up from a standing position.  Let's say you put a moderate amount of effort into it and you jump up six inches and then land.

Now, just imagine everything stays the same but the gravity is decreased to the moon's gravity.  This is just a thought experiment.

You jump up with the same amount of effort.  Naturally you will jump up much higher and you have more air time.

So what about the landings in both cases?

The answer is that in both cases you will land with the same speed and therefore you will experience the same force and the energy will be the same.

Now, going back to the moon, we see an astronaut jumping past the flag.  He is hitting the ground with the same amount of force if you imagine him doing the same thing on Earth.

In both cases, the landing back down to the ground is just as hard as the amount of effort you put into making the jump up in the first place.  Except on the moon you have more air time.

The moral of the story is that the jumping astronaut will hit the moon just as hard as if he was jumping on the Earth.

Bull shit MH.
Do the astronauts look like there jumping any higher than they would on earth?.
The fact is MH,if you drop a ball that weighs 1kg here on earth from a height of 1 meter,the impact energy will be far greater than if you dropped that same ball from the same height on the moon--thats a fact MH that you cant seem to comprehend. The energy needed to lift that ball one meter here on earth is 6.5 time greater than on the moon. The energy of the impact here on earth when that ball hits the ground is then 6.5 times greater than on the moon-minus air resistive losses here on earth.

While your at it,explain as to why the astronauts and lunar vehicles motions are in slow motion-or appear to be. For what reason do they rise so slowly when they bounce around?
If i weighed say 100kg's,and i then lost say 70kg's .Would i appear to move in slow motion,or would my motion now appear faster with the weight loss.

 

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