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### Author Topic: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)  (Read 27663 times)

#### MileHigh

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2016, 11:38:56 PM »
mh,

could you create such a timing diagram that you mentioned to the best of YOUR knowledge of what is happening in this video? I would love to see your comment in a way that builds constructively.

Fausto.

How can I possibly create a timing diagram when it's not my experiment?  The timing diagram would likely help explain the observed phase shift between the pancake coil and the movable coil.

The closer the movable coil is to the rotating magnet the more flux passes through the coil.  In other words the coupling coefficient between the rotating magnet and the movable coil improves the closer they are together.  Since the movable coil drives a resistive load let's assume that it is purely a resistive load relative to the rotating magnet.  There is a phase shift issue which is not fully explained, but at least we can say that the resistance of the coil wire and the load resistor itself look like a purely resistive load at these low frequencies.  When the movable coil is far away from the rotating magnet then a lot of stray flux leaks out the the sides of the shaft which should look like a reactive load to the rotating magnet.  So as the movable coil moves back and forth there is an interplay between a reactive and resistive load from the perspective of the rotating magnet.

When you see a speed up in the Dremel when you add a load, all that you really have to do is make the measurements and calculate the total resistive power dissipation before and after the load is applied.  Almost certainly, you will find that the total resistive power decreases when the load is added.  You can't forget that when the total load resistance is very low, like this case where the coil resistance is 6 ohms plus the load resistor is 0.1 ohms, there may be an impedance mismatch.  Assuming this is the case, then there is an impedance mismatch with the Dremel on the low side - and therefore the resistive power dissipated in (and transferred to) the load goes down and as a result the Dremel speeds up.

Several people are suggesting "exotic" explanations before the most basic number crunching is done - make measurements and calculate how much total resistive power is being dissipated in the load and relate that back to the observed RPM of the Dremel.  You also have very good power consumption data for the Dremel itself which should not be ignored.

In the final analysis "acceleration under load," really "increased final RPM under load," is most likely because when you "add a load" you actually end up decreasing the mechanical load on the Dremel.  Therefore the Dremel speeds up.  If you can figure this out to your satisfaction you will realize that nothing special is happening and there is no "coil magic" taking place.

#### Magluvin

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2016, 11:54:08 PM »
You can't forget that when the load is only 0.1 ohms, let's assume that the coil resistance of 6 ohms plus the load resistance of 0.1 ohms results in an impedance mismatch with the Dremel on the low side - and therefore the resistive power dissipated in (and transferred to) the load goes down and as a result the Dremel speeds up.

Luc did say his coil resistance was so low it was not measurable with his equipment. Most meters go to .1 ohm.  I have a coil that looks similar and is .53ohm reading with a meter that goes to .01ohm. His may have larger wire and fewer turns than mine.

Mags

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2016, 12:39:11 AM »
Luc did say his coil resistance was so low it was not measurable with his equipment. Most meters go to .1 ohm.  I have a coil that looks similar and is .53ohm reading with a meter that goes to .01ohm. His may have larger wire and fewer turns than mine.

Mags

Yes Mags, the coil I showed in the video (but did not demonstrate) has too low of a resistance to measure.
I'm quite sure mine has finer wire then yours as I used the same gauge (23AWG or 0.6mm) wire, which is same gauge as the coil demonstrated. It's just wound in the most unusual way.
Using a wire resistance chart I was able to calculate the coil to be 0.00135 Ohm.
It has 16uH Inductance (on core)

With an amazingly low magnet rotor frequency of 45Hz and coil position at the furthest position on the rod core, 2.3 in. or 58mm away from magnet rotor, when shorting the coil with its own 10AWG 12 inch long wire leads = 0.002 Ohm load resistor,  the magnet rotor goes to 46Hz and 37mV RMS is maintained across the coil = .685 Watt
Open coil voltage at 45Hz is 106mV

Luc

#### Magluvin

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2016, 02:36:36 AM »
Yes Mags, the coil I showed in the video (but did not demonstrate) has too low of a resistance to measure.
I'm quite sure mine has finer wire then yours as I used the same gauge (23AWG or 0.6mm) wire, which is same gauge as the coil demonstrated. It's just wound in the most unusual way.
Using a wire resistance chart I was able to calculate the coil to be 0.00135 Ohm.
It has 16uH Inductance (on core)

With an amazingly low magnet rotor frequency of 45Hz and coil position at the furthest position on the rod core, 2.3 in. or 58mm away from magnet rotor, when shorting the coil with its own 10AWG 12 inch long wire leads = 0.002 Ohm load resistor,  the magnet rotor goes to 46Hz and 37mV RMS is maintained across the coil = .685 Watt
Open coil voltage at 45Hz is 106mV

Luc

Well I just wanted to make it clear that your coil was no where near 6ohms along with your resistor. Wasnt a clear comparison.

Funny so far with using the magnet to bias the core that Im working with at the moment, there doesnt seem to be much of a change at all in voltage output of the coil but has less drag on the rotor, when it is set up right. This seems to be a positive thing. Now to check while loaded. And readjust, etc.

Mags

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2016, 03:56:38 AM »
That's a pretty good experiment.

I did it because I know many cannot build things but they like to see these effects.

Note that the conductive rod core constitutes a shorted 1-turn coil that always brakes the rotor.
It is possible for the slidable multiturn coil to interfere with this braking action.

Yes, a real bad core isn't it!... again, it was quick and dirty, just to show the effect.
I may build a better version using Metglas cores... will see if the time permits.

So for a clean experiment you'd need to use a non-conductive core.
Note that "non-conductive" does not mean "without magnetic hysteresis", which is an unrelated property of a material.

Yes, of course

P.S.
Do you have a non-inductive low ohm resistor to use as an input current sensor instead of the clamp-on current sensor ?

Again, quick and simple. When the real time measurements come the input will most likly be DC which is easy to measure. I should of just used DC since that Dremel is a universal motor.

Luc

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2016, 04:00:43 AM »
Very interesting video Luc.  Thank you kindly for sharing it with us.

So what we think is happening is the magnetic field is propagating through the core material similar to dominoes falling and like any wave, there are nodes and valleys.  When the coil is positioned in the proper location it creates a reflection back to the prime mover that is exactly in tune with its rotation.

This makes me think the coil and core is behaving somewhat like a transmission line and with a transmission line we also have impedance that must be matched.  Gets a little confusing because we have magnetic properties as well as electrical properties both in play here.

Your demonstration certainly provides a lot of food for thought.  Thanks again.

Thanks, you seem to understand it very well!

Luc

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2016, 04:08:36 AM »
@gotoluc

Son of a gun. I just saw this thread and your video. hahahahaha Life is just so great sometimes when things just start falling into place.

Here is what I think needs to done next.

To simplify things, since the coil is showing an AC sine wave maybe consider just using a small rheostat and a bulb instead of your resistors. That will give you infinite load adjustment.

What you really want to know here is what is going on in that sliding coil. Taking a differential reading is like calling New York, then calling Los Angeles and then saying "I know what's happening in the USA". Very deceiving.

What we need to see is what is happening on each added layer of that coil. We think that the core to coil impress is making "electrons flow" (using regular terms here for now) through all of that coil which is a multi layer, mag wire type with tight turns and "no space between layers". I have just posted on this and such a situation I see know as producing what I call Coil Bypass. I think that is what you are seeing there.

If you can drill small holes on one side of that plastic coil spool up to the end turns of the coil and just send one pointy probe and scope it and see the difference from one layer or a few layers to the next few layers, this will give you so much more information then you ever had. hahaha

The other experiment is you take two lengths of identical wire and identical spools. You wind one length on one spool as usual, layer after layer, tight. The other you wind same way but you add a spacer between layers so the layers cannot touch each other. Then you do comparison studies of these two and this will again tell you a lot more then you knew before. Remember old transformers with paper between layers. WHY do we not see that anymore? Was is to efficient? hahaha

The point is this. There is technical process and there is reality process. We technically think the impress is "flowing" through that whole coil. But the coil really has three parts. First layer, mid layers and outer layer. The the coil has first layer starting near the magnet passage or far from the magnet passage. These are all important variables, but in most cases, regardless if you put the coil one way or the other you get the same result. WHY? ? It is because the copper atoms don't care about layers. If the impulse on layer 1 can jump direct to layer 2 without going through the actual windings of layer 2, and then jump to layer 3 without going through the windings of layer 3 and so on, because there is more "resistance" in the winding of those layers then for the impulse to simple jump a few layers, this I call Coil Bypass. So I have found that pulse driven coils suffer from Half Coil Syndrome and pick up coils "may" suffer from Coil Bypass. Copper atoms are way smarter then us for now but if we can find their secrets, we will never wind coils the same way again. hehehe

The other thing is this. We need to develop a sure way to scope our devices with only the probe, while leaving the ground open to the atmosphere or connected to a floating coil of an accepted type to make the ground reference the same for all experimenters. If this can be done, then you will be able to see the direct waveform and not this damn differential wave form that says nothing but "Overall, things work like this or that". We cannot advance with overall, we need precise.

Great work as usual and sorry if this post is not the norm.

wattsup

Okay wattsup,

I don't know how much I'm going to work on this. It was a quick slap together so some who can't build can see this effect.
Also, to test a special super low impedance coil I've been thinking of building for this effect ,which I built and tested and posted the results.

I may or may not build something better. My priority is still the Motor with flyback assist motor. I'm just waiting for the last parts to come in.

All the best in your research

Luc

#### plengo

• Hero Member
• Posts: 962
##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2016, 10:03:17 PM »
...There is a phase shift issue which is not fully explained,...

Thanks MH.

Can you expand on this comment? You mean not fully explained scientifically or on the experiment itself?

Fausto.

#### plengo

• Hero Member
• Posts: 962
##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2016, 10:11:28 PM »
@All,

what measurements and experiments would you guys propose to measure this at a provable point? Whatever is the point. Sometimes I see people arguing about the "no free energy" on the apparatus and other times it is just implied. In this experiment I did not see or hear the words "free energy" but only "more efficient motor".

MH presented a possible explanation but it is too vague to conclude anything. Gotluc did an amazing job in nailing this effect down into a very simple experiment that we all can replicate (I am about to do it too).

I think we NEED a set of tests and measurements that can scientifically be explained into a MODEL, whatever that model is, so it becomes very clear the whats and hows.

Ideas?

Fausto.

#### MileHigh

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2016, 11:45:27 PM »

Thanks MH.

Can you expand on this comment? You mean not fully explained scientifically or on the experiment itself?

Fausto.

I mean that it is not explained in the experiment itself.  Luc stated that it was just a quick demo of the "effect" and he would not be doing any more for this testing.

About one or two years ago ConradElectro wanted to see "acceleration under load" and quickly reproduced the effect.  But we went one step further, we actually measured the power being dissipated on the load side - the pick-up coil and the load resistor.  We measured the initial power dissipation and then the power dissipation after the "acceleration."  The second measurement showed less power was being dissipated and therefore that's why the rotor sped up.

You can expect the same thing would happen in this clip with the Dremel.  The only rational reason for the Dremel to speed up is if there is less of a mechanical load on the motor.  You can determine the mechanical load by measuring the total electrical load.  So it's not "acceleration under load" it's actually "acceleration under less of a load."  I am sure that you can find dozens of clips of "acceleration under load" and I bet you that you will not find anyone actually measuring the power dissipated in the total load before and after.  The entire concept is not true.  In effect, what's happening is an inversion of what the expectation is:  People think that they are adding a load, but in fact what they are really doing is reducing the load.  So the whole thing is a mistake that took on a life of it's own.

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2016, 01:47:39 AM »
Okay, we can stop this now, it's gone far enough.
MH is mostly right. I must admit the reality of AUL effect is not as good as it looked in my video demo, which I purposely did to demonstrate what many are seeing in their tests and as a learning tool for those who play around with this stuff.
I know better not to use a solid steel rod, a bolt, welding rods, or even for that matter transformer laminations. Unless you want to show or demonstrate this effect just to waste power
Core Hysteresis is exactly what causes AUL and it comes at a cost to the prime mover.

When you use quality cores like Metglas, 90% or more of AUL goes away. So MH is right about that.
However, the phase shift you saw in the video by sliding the coil further away on the core still remains and I would suggest this is what needs to be further tested (obviously with the right cores) to see if this has any advantages.

I will post a new video demonstrating the reality of AUL when using Metglas core compared to a solid steel core.
Some of you will be surprised of how drastic the change is.

I'm sorry if this has caused some people grief or trouble. My intention is to bring awareness on the subject which has been highly debated over the years.

Stay tuned for the comparison test

Luc

#### plengo

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2016, 03:37:49 AM »
However, the phase shift you saw in the video by sliding the coil further away on the core still remains and I would suggest this is what needs to be further tested (obviously with the right cores) to see if this has any advantages.

Thanks for the note gotluc. I see MH point and your emphasis on the phase shift which is very significant since this is the area between apparent power and real power manifestation (usage). Removing load (MH argument) is logical but does not explain indeed the phase shift which seams to be the main variable here.

Fausto.

#### MileHigh

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2016, 06:59:18 AM »
Luc:

If you claim core hysteresis is the main cause of "AUL" and if you one day choose to pursue this further then you have back up that claim with solid data.  Right now I am not smelling that at all, and it would probably not be trivial to measure core hysteresis losses and it would only be one part of the load on the prime mover.

My feeling is that the electrical load due to the coil + resistor in any before/after configuration analysis is the main agent that is causing a mechanical load on the prime mover, and hysteresis losses would be secondary.  It's just a feeling with no measurements to back it up.

It's hard to say where the phase shift is coming from exactly because I don't know exactly how to model the setup.  The model might be as simple as a coil (stray inductance) and a resistor (pickup coil driving resistive load) in series.  Without being sure, it would at least appear there is a decent chance that the stray inductance leaking out of the core when the movable coil is far away is the main cause of the phase shift.  I seriously doubt the phase shift is having a large impact on the final RPM but one more time you never know.  Like I said before, the best way to approach that would be to do a timing diagram analysis where you plot the estimated back-torque on the prime mover during a full revolution.

The real moral of the story for the people that this was being presented to is to make proper measurements and do your best to properly interpret your measurements and analyze them.  Full schematics, measurements, interpretation and analysis, and then trying to draw the proper conclusions.  That's the way for experimenters to properly share data and work together in a synergistic manner.  However, a good first start would be to simply measure the electrical power dissipated on the coil + load resistor for the "before" and "after" configurations.  If the power dissipation data is leaping out at you as an explanation for the "effect" then that should be sufficient.  People can still work on measuring the core losses if they want to see where that leads them.

It may all sound like a big pain in the ass but this is real electronics.  Taking shortcuts is too dangerous and can lead to improper conclusions.

MileHigh

#### wattsup

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2016, 12:52:13 PM »
@gotoluc

OK but listen,

you already did the experiment right and at around 13 min you showed the cogging. So the cogging proves you found a good slide position on the core no matter the material, cogging is a good sign. So what is the cogging saying to you? Maybe it's saying "Hey man, I want to give you some good amps and all you want with that fat single coil is volts."

Now how could you increase amps instead of volts? Maximum output has always been a dance between volts and amps. Is it possible that you can output more watts when working to output more amps? Or a mix of both that come together parallel. These are not bad questions to answer again regardless of the core if you are getting cogging on the drive motor that becomes a base.

wattsup

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2016, 04:55:34 AM »
Okay everyone, I made the video as promised but like TinMan says, better make some popcorn cause it's a long one. Actually the longest video I have ever made!... 45 minutes of boring measurements

Hope this helps bring a better understanding on this effect.