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Author Topic: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)  (Read 19940 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« on: January 16, 2016, 05:08:32 AM »
Hi everyone,

I'm starting this topic as some of you may be interested in this video demo I made for a topic presently going on at the Energetic Forum http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20366-your-basic-coil.html on what causes a Generator Coil to Accelerate Under Load. I know this been discuss at this forum many times and I don't care to discuss it further or even at the EF topic for that matter.
This is mostly an information topic which I will moderate, so be careful what you post if you chose to do so.

This effect is far from being new as I found out from user Erfinder that The Great Nikola Tesla had developed this in 1894 and was granted a patent (see attached).

The effect can be tuned with the core distance between the magnet rotor and the coils.

A few years back when I finally understood the AUL effect was not just about the coil geometry but also had to do with the core length.
Since then, I've been wondering what's going on in the core that is assisting this effect.

So I built a test device to further study it with all the rest of the stuff I'm doing ::) , LOL

Here's the link to the video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3x0xTqM_k

The coil used in the demo has 5.3 Ohms dc resistance and between 26 to 27mH at any point on the 1/2" round rod core.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline gotoluc

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2016, 07:01:40 AM »
Update,

most who have been experiencing this AUL (acceleration under load) effect may of noticed it's easier to achieve it with a higher impedance coil (more turns) then a low impedance coil and also using higher rotor rpm = higher frequencies.
Many, including myself (2 years ago) would of thought the coils Inductance was part of the effect seeing it happened with higher impedance coils.
I have now confirm (to myself anyways) that the effect is not based on the coils Inductance by testing the super low impedance coil I showed in my video.
It's inductance is 16uH with a resistance that's so low, it's unmeasurable.
With this special wounding geometry coil I can achieve AUL with the magnet rotor as low as 35Hz which is a new record for me.
The great thing about being able to achieve AUL at a lower frequency is, drastic reduction of core losses caused by eddy currents and hysteresis.

Just thought I would share my new findings

Luc

Offline Dog-One

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2016, 12:50:35 PM »
Very interesting video Luc.  Thank you kindly for sharing it with us.

So what we think is happening is the magnetic field is propagating through the core material similar to dominoes falling and like any wave, there are nodes and valleys.  When the coil is positioned in the proper location it creates a reflection back to the prime mover that is exactly in tune with its rotation.

This makes me think the coil and core is behaving somewhat like a transmission line and with a transmission line we also have impedance that must be matched.  Gets a little confusing because we have magnetic properties as well as electrical properties both in play here.

Your demonstration certainly provides a lot of food for thought.  Thanks again.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2016, 12:50:35 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2016, 01:32:02 PM »
So I built a test device to further study it with all the rest of the stuff I'm doing ::) , LOL
Here's the link to the video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3x0xTqM_k
That's a pretty good experiment.

Note that the conductive rod core constitutes a shorted 1-turn coil that always brakes the rotor.
It is possible for the slidable multiturn coil to interfere with this braking action.

So for a clean experiment you'd need to use a non-conductive core.
Note that "non-conductive" does not mean "without magnetic hysteresis", which is an unrelated property of a material.

P.S.
Do you have a non-inductive low ohm resistor to use as an input current sensor instead of the clamp-on current sensor ?

Offline romerouk

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2016, 02:55:12 PM »
For every type of coil there is an ideal point where you can get acceleration under load. It can be done without the additional coil.
The best way is to maintain the same speed under load while the power generated is of a considerable amount.
This can be done using  a small amount of power from an external source providing voltage while the coil itself will add the amperage resulting a magnification process.
This process can also be used in a solid state configuration.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2016, 02:55:12 PM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2016, 03:49:53 PM »
The patent office .?
Never give a man a stick to beat you with !

Respectfully
Chet

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2016, 04:04:39 PM »
Quote
This can be done using  a small amount of power from an external source providing voltage while the coil itself will add the amperage resulting a magnification process.

It simply doesn't work like that and there is no "magnification process" taking place.  Plus the language being used does not make sense, coils don't "add amperage."

Every one of these setups needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.  There is no generic "advice" on how to see a rotor increase in speed when the configuration is changed.

And "configuration is changed" is the key phrase.  I make a change to my system by adding a load.  Therefore there are two configurations to analyze, without the load and with the load.  All off the voltages and currents need to be measured and a complete power audit has to be done for each configuration, never forgetting to account for the waste heat.  Countless times experimenters have been thrown off and they confuse "increased output" for what is really less waste heat.

If you really want to understand a setup then you should construct a timing diagram with as much information as possible incorporated in the timing diagram.  All of the answers explaining the how and why and when of the setup are revealed in the timing diagram.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2016, 04:04:39 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2016, 04:37:38 PM »
MH

Sorry, but I think you are beginning to wander far off course.   What possible connection does a composite video signal have to do with a coil causing or allowing a rotor to accelerate under a load?

Carroll

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2016, 04:45:56 PM »
It's just an example of a timing diagram for illustrative purposes.

I found a more interesting timing diagram showing an operating mode for a 555 timer.  A picture is worth a thousand words and the timing diagram for the 555 timer in conjunction with a schematic and a text description provides the reader with a complete understanding of what is going on.  A pulse motor is typically more complicated than a 555 timer circuit and therefore you need a timing diagram, schematic, and text description to understand what is going on.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2016, 04:45:56 PM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2016, 06:05:26 PM »
@gotoluc

Son of a gun. I just saw this thread and your video. hahahahaha Life is just so great sometimes when things just start falling into place.

Here is what I think needs to done next.

To simplify things, since the coil is showing an AC sine wave maybe consider just using a small rheostat and a bulb instead of your resistors. That will give you infinite load adjustment.

What you really want to know here is what is going on in that sliding coil. Taking a differential reading is like calling New York, then calling Los Angeles and then saying "I know what's happening in the USA". Very deceiving.

What we need to see is what is happening on each added layer of that coil. We think that the core to coil impress is making "electrons flow" (using regular terms here for now) through all of that coil which is a multi layer, mag wire type with tight turns and "no space between layers". I have just posted on this and such a situation I see know as producing what I call Coil Bypass. I think that is what you are seeing there.

If you can drill small holes on one side of that plastic coil spool up to the end turns of the coil and just send one pointy probe and scope it and see the difference from one layer or a few layers to the next few layers, this will give you so much more information then you ever had. hahaha

The other experiment is you take two lengths of identical wire and identical spools. You wind one length on one spool as usual, layer after layer, tight. The other you wind same way but you add a spacer between layers so the layers cannot touch each other. Then you do comparison studies of these two and this will again tell you a lot more then you knew before. Remember old transformers with paper between layers. WHY do we not see that anymore? Was is to efficient? hahaha

The point is this. There is technical process and there is reality process. We technically think the impress is "flowing" through that whole coil. But the coil really has three parts. First layer, mid layers and outer layer. The the coil has first layer starting near the magnet passage or far from the magnet passage. These are all important variables, but in most cases, regardless if you put the coil one way or the other you get the same result. WHY????? It is because the copper atoms don't care about layers. If the impulse on layer 1 can jump direct to layer 2 without going through the actual windings of layer 2, and then jump to layer 3 without going through the windings of layer 3 and so on, because there is more "resistance" in the winding of those layers then for the impulse to simple jump a few layers, this I call Coil Bypass. So I have found that pulse driven coils suffer from Half Coil Syndrome and pick up coils "may" suffer from Coil Bypass. Copper atoms are way smarter then us for now but if we can find their secrets, we will never wind coils the same way again. hehehe

The other thing is this. We need to develop a sure way to scope our devices with only the probe, while leaving the ground open to the atmosphere or connected to a floating coil of an accepted type to make the ground reference the same for all experimenters. If this can be done, then you will be able to see the direct waveform and not this damn differential wave form that says nothing but "Overall, things work like this or that". We cannot advance with overall, we need precise.

Great work as usual and sorry if this post is not the norm.

wattsup


Offline gotoluc

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2016, 06:08:11 PM »
 This was posted on my youtube video and though of posting it here as it is the way I see the effect at this time.

Posted by deslomeslager    3 hours ago 
First of all: nice build as usual! And thank you for sharing. I watched it with pleasure, and hope to see the next one soon. I think of the rod as a piece of elastic band. And the prime mover as an up-down shifting device as an analogy). The coil is the 'closed end'  for the standing waves. As you move the coil you are actually shortening the piece of elastic band (or cord, perhaps it should not be elastic at all). I hope the analogy stands for a bit. What it does not explain or what is not in proportion is about the phase shift. There will be a point where the emf will help rotating the prime mover. On the other hand, if the closed end of  a cord is changed in an open end, the amplitude can go to twice it's maximum value since there is a returning wave which adds up. Is this a bad comparison?

My reply:
I'm thinking of the core more like water. The magnet flux, like a wave on the water. The wave is first created by the magnets movement which moves through the core like a wave on water. The coil represent an obstacle to the wave. So if it's close to the beginning of the core the coil reflects the wave back to the magnet which happens to be the same pole the wave was created causing a braking effect to the magnets movement (Lenz Law). Now move the coil back far enough on the core and by the time the wave hits the coil and reflected back to the magnet, the magnet may have had enough time to rotate to the next pole (opposite) which will cause an attraction (acceleration) which is the reverse of Lenz.
As for why different coils cause different result is caused by the coils time constant (charge time) which will dictate on how much time it take for the wave to be reflected back the magnet.

Also, another variable is, If the coil is under load at the same time, this will dictate on how much of the waves force will be reflected back to the magnet, hence reducing its capability of assisting.

I would tend to think the most efficient energy transfer (using this effect) would be to adjust it so the time constant and load completely absorbs the wave and nothing is returned which will cause no lost in magnet movement and no gain.
Now, to say there are no losses to the magnets movement would not be completely correct, as we know Eddy currents in water cause losses and are also present in the core material. However,  using the newest technology in thin core material will alleviate much of these losses.

Hope this helps.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2016, 06:08:11 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2016, 07:55:54 PM »
When I read Lucs posts last night it all reminded me of Romeros thread. 

Glad to see you chime in Romereo.   ;)

Its good to see this come back to life. ;D

Going to shop to build some things.  ;)


Mags

Offline plengo

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2016, 07:59:41 PM »
mh,


could you create such a timing diagram that you mentioned to the best of YOUR knowledge of what is happening in this video? I would love to see your comment in a way that builds constructively.


Fausto.


It simply doesn't work like that and there is no "magnification process" taking place.  Plus the language being used does not make sense, coils don't "add amperage."

Every one of these setups needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.  There is no generic "advice" on how to see a rotor increase in speed when the configuration is changed.

And "configuration is changed" is the key phrase.  I make a change to my system by adding a load.  Therefore there are two configurations to analyze, without the load and with the load.  All off the voltages and currents need to be measured and a complete power audit has to be done for each configuration, never forgetting to account for the waste heat.  Countless times experimenters have been thrown off and they confuse "increased output" for what is really less waste heat.

If you really want to understand a setup then you should construct a timing diagram with as much information as possible incorporated in the timing diagram.  All of the answers explaining the how and why and when of the setup are revealed in the timing diagram.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2016, 08:04:58 PM »

The best way is to maintain the same speed under load while the power generated is of a considerable amount.


Well said.  Getting output current 'without' affecting the speed of the driven rotor. Meaning that you get output without loading the rotor motion, thus not an increase in input to the rotor. :o ;D


Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Study of Generator Coil Acceleration Under Load (moderated)
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2016, 10:55:22 PM »
Just a week or so ago I had posted that I went and read some of the beginning of the Muller Dynamo thread where Romero was putting his motor together. And I said it was still inspiring. Well today makes it even more. 

Been playin with my motor setup and fiddling with magnet biasing the core to reduce cogging and it works well. Depending in the core used, magnet used and distances adjusted.  Was just getting into rearranging those as the pickup coil is loaded. So it doesnt have to be a long core with a sliding coil to find the same effect. Just sayin there is more than one way to skin that cat, as Romero had shown some time ago. ;)



Mags

 

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