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Author Topic: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight  (Read 24781 times)

Offline itsu

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2016, 09:24:16 PM »

Hi null-points,

thanks for the nice little diagram, its indeed a nice weekend project.

I put it together with what i had laying around and it worked straight away.

Toroid is a little yoke, coils 40:120, 0.5mm wire, 2n2222 transistor, 2x 1N5819 diodes, 10K potmeter, 2200uF cap, 2x 2000mAH rechargeables, bright 10mm led.
Yoke has one side isolated with a mylar sheet so there is a gap.

Running for about 12hours now, still going strong (well, the rechargeables are powerfull), i will see how long it goes on.
Screenshot shows the voltage over (yellow), current through (green) and the power (red) in the LED.


Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbWvCAH1aFc&feature=youtu.be


Thanks,  regards Itsu

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Offline nul-points

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2016, 12:02:11 AM »
...,
thanks for the nice little diagram, its indeed a nice weekend project.

I put it together with what i had laying around and it worked straight away.

Toroid is a little yoke, coils 40:120, 0.5mm wire, 2n2222 transistor, 2x 1N5819 diodes, 10K potmeter, 2200uF cap, 2x 2000mAH rechargeables, bright 10mm led.
Yoke has one side isolated with a mylar sheet so there is a gap.
...
Thanks,  regards Itsu

Hej Itsu!

That's a verrrrry nice setup you have there - and i see from your videos that you take your experimentation very seriously!

Thank you for taking the time to make & post a video about my little circuit - i hope that other experimenters, such as youself, find it as interesting (and hopefully useful) as i have

There have been a couple of occasions now, starting with well-rested cells/batteries, where it appeared that after 1 discharge/recharge cycle the 2 terminal voltages had both increased slightly!   I was in the middle of other tests so i just made a mental note to revisit that scenario and be a little more careful in my study of it

I realise that you constructed the circuit with parts to hand - if you decide to spend any time with the circuit, you might be able to make a couple of changes which may improve efficiency slightly

Firstly, some of the 1N58xx Schottky diodes have a fairly significant reverse-leakage current (a characteristic which i've used in some very low-power oscillator circuits) - when it comes to reducing any possible leakage paths around charging circuits, i try to use diodes like these BAT42s

Secondly, the 2N2222 is a dependable workhorse for many circuits, but to maximise gain & switching speed (again, for improved efficiency) i try to use high-gain, high-frequency, higher breakdown voltage devices such as BC547 (i had to settle for BC337 here - i must have eaten all the 547s!)

I'm interested that you picked up on the air-gap - if i remember correctly, Harold claimed that the energy stored increased with gap size, so i've folded some insulating tape to create a gap of approx 2mm  - of course, this creates an angle of contact at the opposite side of the toroid halves, too

My tests, so far, appear to show that the circuit can extend the useful operation for the input charge on the cells/batteries, but it takes a long time to turn results around for each particular test - hence my initial trials using a single 750mAh AAA cell for i/p and for o/p

I've moved on to use a slight variant of the circuit, combining an idea from some earlier work, using an 8 LED head from a commercial flashlight

This latest setup uses a 3 cell battery of NiMH AAAs for i/p (& also for o/p obviously) - current draw for this setup is 65 mA, which will help me get more tests completed per week

I'll be interested to hear your observations, but i hope that this doesn't detract from your other investigations

All the best with your experiments

hej
np
 
(Edit)  PS  my variant circuit is running at approx 40kHz but my intial circuit, which you show, runs at 500kHz - a smaller yoke may give you higher frequency operation, if this can improve efficiency
 

Offline itsu

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2016, 11:04:07 AM »

Hi NP,

thanks for the tips, i have most of the components you mentioned, so will change them after i know how long the present setup will last.

It does not take much efforts to set it up, the toroid is the most time consuming part to build.

This morning (so after again 8 hours) the LED was still on, but the supply battery was at 0.5V  :o , so i switched again and now its at 1.2087V, mostly
recovered by its natural chemical process i guess.   The now run battery is at 1.278V

By the way, the both rechargeables where almost drained when i started, so i am already surprised they last this long.

 
Regards Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2016, 11:04:07 AM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2016, 01:49:50 PM »
@ nul-point and itsu:

May be you have two super caps instead of the two rechargeable batteries. The tests would be much shorter.

I attach the photo of a suitable super cap, but any similar type would work, more or less capacitance, even the 5 Volt types would be good.

The 1 F type super caps are low cost.

With a laboratory power supply or with a 1.5 V battery the super caps should be charged to 1.5 Volt before the test.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline nul-points

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2016, 03:18:15 PM »
@ nul-point and itsu:

May be you have two super caps instead of the two rechargeable batteries. The tests would be much shorter.

I attach the photo of a suitable super cap, but any similar type would work, more or less capacitance, even the 5 Volt types would be good.

The 1 F type super caps are low cost.

With a laboratory power supply or with a 1.5 V battery the super caps should be charged to 1.5 Volt before the test.

Greetings, Conrad

hi Conrad

thanks for thinking around the project!

actually, i made my first tests of the circuit using 2 supercap stacks, and last night i started testing with a 1F capacitor as 'B2' - you're correct, the run times are considerably shorter!

thanks for reading & for the suggestions

all the best
np

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2016, 03:18:15 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2016, 07:10:19 PM »
@ nul-point and itsu:

May be you have two super caps instead of the two rechargeable batteries. The tests would be much shorter.

I attach the photo of a suitable super cap, but any similar type would work, more or less capacitance, even the 5 Volt types would be good.

The 1 F type super caps are low cost.

With a laboratory power supply or with a 1.5 V battery the super caps should be charged to 1.5 Volt before the test.

Greetings, Conrad

Conrad - you're a Genius!!

When we next meet at the Bierkeller, i owe you a large beer ...and a big kiss!  ;-) 

The supercaps are a perfect demonstration for two reasons:-

a)  you can run 2 tests with the same starting energy each time, one with the full circuit, swapping i/p & o/p and one with just the regular i/p, no o/p storage;

b) you can show clearly that there is no extra charge in the output cap, when you start

and of course the 2 tests only took a total of about 30 minutes, as you implied

I have to go to band practice now, but i hope to upload the 2 graphs later, if not now

I'll explain the details later, for sure, but the graph data shows that the same i/p energy only illuminates the LED for approximately half the time without the output storage swap system - approx 6 minutes compared to approx 12.5 minutes using the full circuit

More later, all the best
np
 

So - here is the result of your suggestion

Offline conradelektro

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2016, 07:32:49 PM »

The supercaps are a perfect demonstration for two reasons:-


Nul-Points you give me too much credit.

It was repeatedly suggested by multiple persons in the past to demonstrate OU with a big electrolytic capacitor or a super cap instead of using batteries, because one can see the result within minutes (instead of many hours or even days).

See for instance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNBi6qoW5SI&feature=youtu.be, Laserhacker runs a pulse motor on a 1000 µF capacitor.

The capacitance of the super cap (1 F, 10 F or 100 F) will define the duration of the test. The smaller the capacitance the shorter the test. Things happen too fast if the test only lasts a few seconds. About two to  five minutes would be practical. Of course one usually does not have man different super caps at home or does nor want to spend too much money buying many different ones.

A OU set up must be able to run from a relatively small super cap (may be 10 F) or one suspects that the OU feature is in the battery (which would be chemistry not electronics).

Many experimenters can not imagine that a Joule Thief type circuit with one LED can run for months with a AA battery. I have a Joule Thief which runs up to 6 months with an AA battery. Of course the red LED is not very bright, but sufficient during the dark to be seen clearly from 10 meters away (in order to give directions).

I am looking forward to your explanations of the graphs.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2016, 07:32:49 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2016, 01:28:38 AM »
No, i would have continued with my 1 battery, 1 supercap testing, Conrad, if you hadn't suggested replacing both batteries with supercaps

I agree that there are certain aspects of a system which it is easier to quantify using just 'charge', rather than chemistry - and as i was thinking about the possibility of extending the work of which one battery was capable, i moved away from my initial curiosity about the behaviour of the circuit with capacitor storage on both i/p & o/p

So  - i'm very grateful that you made that suggestion ...and that i was also able to get the results so promptly because of it

The upper graph shows the terminal voltages of the i/p & output capacitors (both 1F); in this case the cathode of the LED 'load' is connected to circuit ground, or common, instead of the o/p capacitor, so the o/p current is only used to illuminate the LED - no storage occurs, so the output & input storage cannot be swapped as the test progresses

The blue trace shows the input capacitor get charged to approx 4.9V and as it discharges to 4.6V i connect it to the input of the circuit; the oscillator starts; the LED illuminates; and the input capacitor discharges down to approx 0.6V

At the point when the LED is no longer illuminated, i disconnect the input capacitor and start discharging it, to identify tbe end time of the test run - the duration of LED illumination, without the full circuit, is approx 6 minutes

The lower graph, then, shows the results achieved when the whole circuit is in operation  - the output is also a 1F capacitor, like the input, and the cathode of tbe LED is connected to its positive terminal

As before, the input capacitor gets charged to approx 4.9V and then connected to the input of the circuit when the voltage discharges to 4.6V; the oscillator starts; the LED illuminates; and the input capacitor discharges down to approx 0.42V, whilst the same current passing through the LED charges the output capacitor

At the point when the LED is no longer illuminated, approx 6 minutes after the start of the test run, i toggle switch S1 which swaps the input & output capacitors - the LED now re-illuminates, powered by the charge which has just been received by what was the output capacitor

This second amount of 'charge' illuminates the LED for an extra 4 minutes approximately, and whilst it does this the LED current is now charging the new output capacitor

When the LED is again no longer illuminated, i toggle S1 once more and the capacitors are now back in their original connection; the input capacitor has received some extra charge during the previous swap, the LED re-illuminates and the input capacitor discharges down to 0.6V approx

At this stage, the LED illuminates for a further 2.5 minutes approx  - the total duration of LED illumination, therefore, with this circuit arrangement is 6 + 4 + 2.5 = 12.5 minutes approx

So, this flashlight circuit is capable of extending the useful 'work' done by an input charge of up to 100% approx

Interesting!

Tests continue
np




Offline conradelektro

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2016, 02:37:53 AM »
So, this flashlight circuit is capable of extending the useful 'work' done by an input charge of up to 100% approx

Interesting!

Nul-Points, now I understand. Really nice this second graph, it shows the story very well. And it looks and sounds plausible. I have never seen before such a clear demonstration of a "battery (or cap) swapping circuit".


I would like to know:

Does the LED shine brighter in case "the cathode of the LED is connected to circuit ground, instead of the o/p capacitor" (first graph) in comparison to the the situation when the "whole circuit is in operation (second graph)?


I suspect:

You could make the circuit (first graph or second graph) run longer by dimming the LED a bit by setting the variable resistor VR1 to a higher resistance. And on the other hand, you could make it run shorter by letting the LED shine a bit brighter by setting the variable resistor VR1 to a lower resistance. All of course only works within certain limits.


Under normal circumstances I would replicate your "flash-light", but at the moment I am very busy with "electrostatic experiments" based on the electrophorus principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophorus, which is known since 1762. The electrophorus is the intellectual root of all "electrostatic machines". The best web site about electrostatic machines I found is this one: http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/electrostatic.html .

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2016, 02:37:53 AM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2016, 09:00:57 AM »
...
I would like to know:

Does the LED shine brighter in case "the cathode of the LED is connected to circuit ground, instead of the o/p capacitor" (first graph) in comparison to the the situation when the "whole circuit is in operation (second graph)?

I suspect:

You could make the circuit (first graph or second graph) run longer by dimming the LED a bit by setting the variable resistor VR1 to a higher resistance. And on the other hand, you could make it run shorter by letting the LED shine a bit brighter by setting the variable resistor VR1 to a lower resistance. All of course only works within certain limits.


...at the moment I am very busy with "electrostatic experiments" based on the electrophorus principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophorus, which is known since 1762. The electrophorus is the intellectual root of all "electrostatic machines". The best web site about electrostatic machines I found is this one: http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/electrostatic.html .
...

Good question Conrad, difficult to answer objectively!  I'll set up a little DIY illumination tester and get back to you on that


This circuit, in common with most oscillators i suspect, will discharge a battery or capacitor source more or less quickly depending on the drive conditions of the active device - in this case i attempted to adjust the drive to produce the brightest output (since it is nominally a 'flashlight' application), so in one respect the operating conditions are 'optimum', rather than arbitrary

I think that the reported behaviour probably addresses your theory: both tests complete a discharge of the input capacitor (to the point of extinction of the LED) in a period of 6 seconds - i think that this tells us that both tests are having the sane effect on the input energy supply

The difference between the two tests is that in the 2nd test the energy being drawn from the input is diverted into another store and can then be re-used (and this process is repeated a couple of times)

Your own investigations sound interesting - i've seen mention of 'electrophorus' a few times recently so i will extend  my education and read up from those links which you provide - many thanks!

I'll report back if i can get a quantitive answer for you, about the relative illumination levels betwen the 2 tests

All the best
np

Offline itsu

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2016, 11:03:19 AM »

Interesting guys, indeed a good suggestion Conrad about the supercaps.

I stopped my circuit when the NiMH batteries were around 0.6V / 0.9V, but the led was still on.
It had run for about 30 hours (almost depleted batteries to start with).

I have changed the 2n2222 for a BC547 which cleaned up the oscillation signal and its now running with 2 fully charged 750mAh NIMH's
I had to order the BAT42's as i did not have them, so will redo the test when they arrive.
I will also incorperate the supercap setup as i have 10 10F / 2.7V supercaps, so i will split them in 2x 5 (50F) parallel.

One thing i noticed is that it seems that the led pulled 16mW, while neither battery was supplying that amount of power.
But it is difficult to make accurate measurements with such low voltage/current levels so will need to redo that to.

Another interesting thing would be to check if the resonance frequency has any influence on the workings of the used yoke/toroid.
Maybe at a certain resonance frequency it will co-resonante and lower the losses even further.

 
Thanks,  itsu

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2016, 11:03:19 AM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2016, 02:33:50 PM »
i think that extending operation/increasing efficiency of a circuit using battery energy is a good long-term goal (which is why i initially moved to the 2 battery setup) - however, it's looking like we need to start getting a better measure of the quantities of energy being transferred & converted, to see if & where any gains are being made

i was very encouraged to see the results of the 2 capacitor tests to get some clear indication that the general principle works - and works well

pleased to hear that a BC547 has given you improved switching over the 2N2222, the BAT42s may not make such a visible difference but they should reduce any leakage currents you may have had from the 1N58xx devices

the supercaps will be a good move i think - i've started to experiment with battery i/p & supercap o/p and i think we can still achieve similar efficiency gains with this method (and therefore not need to double up the number of batteries/cells we're using)

i've also been using the circuit at higher voltages (more cells - more LEDs) - a move like this may help you, too, with power measurements

for higher supply voltages i've added a BAT42 between base & common (cathode to base) of Q1, to clamp the drive voltage swing to the base, to avoid any zener breakdown effects - this seems to have improved efficiency at these increased voltages, too

another small change has been to reduce the buffer capacitance and split its location - i reduced the 1500uF electrolytic cap to a 100uF Tantalum and placed it in parallel with D1 & the input supply, and i now only have 0.33uF of non-polar capacitance decoupling the supply to the oscillator on the T1 side of L1

these values may well be suited to my particular L1 & T1 values, so you may need to 'select-on-test', if you wish to try these mods - your comments about resonance are very relevant here, and i suspect that in general the higher frequency of the oscillator will be better

interesting about the LED power measurements - as a *very* approximate rule-of-thumb, your scope traces show the flyback current/voltage spikes as a right-angle triangle so the average E & I values will be (50% of their height x duty cycle), if that helps you double-check the scope power values?

thanks to all you guys reading & experimenting with this circuit, for feedback, ideas & shared results
np


Offline nul-points

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2016, 08:41:20 AM »
Responding to your earlier question about comparative illumination levels of the LED between the two tests, Conrad:

I had to make a visual comparison because i haven't yet found the parts i've used  before to compare LED light levels between pulsed and DC operation a few years back - so - visually there doesn't seem to be a marked difference between the tests

Its difficult to give a more useful visual comparison because of course in both cases the supply voltage gradually decreases through the duration of each test anyway - in the case of the swapped devices circuit, the LED becomes brighter again as each swap is made, then decreases as before

Of course, the test conditions are quite artificial, because in normal use as a flashlight the battery supply voltage only decreases very slowly by comparison with the test capacitor


I realised on re-reading your post just now, to answer your illumination question, that i misunderstood your comment about run duration - i originally thought you were referring to the test conditions but i think now that you meant in general - so, yes, i plan to make the variable resistor available as a control - the user can then choose to make the illumination/duration trade-off to suit the needs of the moment

I looked up your electrophorus link to the examples site - very interesting!   I think that there are more connections between 'contact voltage', Galvanic voltage, and electrostatic behaviour than is widely known or accepted in mainstream science.  It seems to me that these are just another way of tapping into the inherent energies which bind matter together, and which we also see becoming accessible through LENR type processes (eg our own Prof Steven Jones, Rossi, and Fleichmann & Pons)

So - cool- electrostatics -  a  very interesting area of study, and not too far separated from the radiant energy collector device of Tesla - kudos!

All the best with your investigations, Conrad
np


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2016, 08:55:56 AM »
Re the issue of judging LED brightness...

I've recently been making some electricity-to-light efficiency tests and it's surprising how much actual brightness change has to happen before the eye can detect it purely visually.

I'm using an Extech LT300 light meter and a box which keeps the light sensor and the light source under test separated by a fixed, standard distance and excludes other light.  Here's the "unboxing" video I made when I first received the Extech meter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iulxcqg5USk
(I don't show any efficiency tests in this video, it's just unboxing and testing the meter for operation.)

My experience with this meter and the LED efficiency tests I've been doing have really made me realize that it is absolutely essential to use sensitive instruments, rather than "eyeballing", to measure brightness of LEDs, whether pulsed like with a JT or with steady DC. This is also true of incandescent filaments. The eye is incredibly "non-linear" in response to brightness. Sometimes I've seen 30 percent difference in actual measured brightness when to the eye the brightness levels can look nearly the same.

Offline conradelektro

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Re: "...that's not a knife - THIS is a knife!!!" ...er, OU flashlight
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2016, 02:18:42 PM »
I had to make a visual comparison because i haven't yet found the parts i've used  before to compare LED light levels between pulsed and DC operation a few years back - so - visually there doesn't seem to be a marked difference between the tests

I realised on re-reading your post just now, to answer your illumination question, that i misunderstood your comment about run duration - i originally thought you were referring to the test conditions but i think now that you meant in general - so, yes, i plan to make the variable resistor available as a control - the user can then choose to make the illumination/duration trade-off to suit the needs of the moment

@Nul-Points

My argument concerning LED brightness is the following: if one stores some energy for later use (by swapping the batteries) the LED will shine dimmer. In other words, the total light output is about the same whether on has the LED shine brighter for a shorter time (your test without energy storage) or one has it shine less bright for a longer time (your test with battery swapping).

May be one can just as well forget "battery swapping" by just having the LED shine less brightly (by setting the variable resistor at the base to a higher value or by making the ON-pulses shorter by help of some circuitry at the base of the transistor). I got very good results by carefully switching the transistor with a microprocessor (adjusting pulse frequency and pulse width to some optimum). This only made sense when driving CFLs (compact fluorescent lamps) or many LEDs. This principle is used in modern LED drivers which adjust the Voltage over the LEDs to adjust the light-colour temperature (which changes when the LEDs warm up) and pulse frequency and pulse width are changed  to allow for dimming. So, to optimally drive LEDs one best uses a microprocessor.  http://www.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?baseLiteratureNumber=snvy001

Yes, my comment about the variable resistor was meant "generally". The variable resistor at the base of the transistor defines (within limits) the switching, mostly the length of the ON-pulses and as such the amount of energy flowing through the LED (which is the brightness).

Greetings, Conrad

 

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