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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: earthbound0729 on January 10, 2016, 06:18:15 AM

Title: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 10, 2016, 06:18:15 AM
Hello All,

I seem to be having a Bedini Transistor Problem.

A little history first:
Coil is 8 filar
Transistors used- TIP3055, SC5027
Battery- 12 volt 18ah


I have built the Bedini circuit described in the Bedini Beginner's Handbook. I have noticed that the transistor Collector-Emitter appears to be in an open state as soon as I connect the run battery. This is proven because of the light I have connected across the Collector and base. I am using a 12 volt car light merely to check to see if there is voltage available at anytime. The base is not even energized in the normal way.
This is very bizarre as I even checked it without the Trigger coil wires connected to anything on my second go round and the magnets are not being rotated.
This is being done via a breadboard.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
TY,
earthbound


I honestly cannot figure any other way that the circuit could be in an open state.
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: TinselKoala on January 10, 2016, 08:04:49 AM
Hello All,

I seem to be having a Bedini Transistor Problem.

A little history first:
Coil is 8 filar
Transistors used- TIP3055, SC5027
Battery- 12 volt 18ah


I have built the Bedini circuit described in the Bedini Beginner's Handbook. I have noticed that the transistor Collector-Emitter appears to be in an open state as soon as I connect the run battery. This is proven because of the light I have connected across the Collector and base. I am using a 12 volt car light merely to check to see if there is voltage available at anytime. The base is not even energized in the normal way.
This is very bizarre as I even checked it without the Trigger coil wires connected to anything on my second go round and the magnets are not being rotated.
This is being done via a breadboard.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
TY,
earthbound


I honestly cannot figure any other way that the circuit could be in an open state.

Please post the exact schematic you are using, including how you are testing it.

Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: citfta on January 10, 2016, 12:42:21 PM
Hello All,

I seem to be having a Bedini Transistor Problem.

A little history first:
Coil is 8 filar
Transistors used- TIP3055, SC5027
Battery- 12 volt 18ah


I have built the Bedini circuit described in the Bedini Beginner's Handbook. I have noticed that the transistor Collector-Emitter appears to be in an open state as soon as I connect the run battery. This is proven because of the light I have connected across the Collector and base. I am using a 12 volt car light merely to check to see if there is voltage available at anytime. The base is not even energized in the normal way.
This is very bizarre as I even checked it without the Trigger coil wires connected to anything on my second go round and the magnets are not being rotated.
This is being done via a breadboard.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
TY,
earthbound


I honestly cannot figure any other way that the circuit could be in an open state.

Please post the info TK asked for.  But an equally important question is "What do you mean by open?"  To those trained in electronics open means having no connection like an open knife switch.  Open in electronics also can mean the transistor is defective and cannot turn on.  To those not trained in electronics open means to many of them open like turning on a faucet.  So do you mean the transistor appears to be on all the time with no power to the base?  Or do you mean it will not turn on?  Also as TK asked how are you checking it?  If your bulb lights when you connect one end to the collector and the other end to the emitter then that is normal with no signal to the base.  The 12 volts is going from the battery through the coil to the collector.  With the transistor off you should see the light light.  When the transistor turns ON the transistor then grounds the end of the coil so current can flow through the coil.  I am not sure which circuit you are using but the SSG that uses a wheel and magnets has to be spun by hand to get it to trigger the trigger winding and start the machine.

These are just some of the things I have seen from those new to electronics and the Bedini circuits.  I have helped dozens of people get their Bedini circuits working so I am sure we can get yours to work also.  If possible please include an actual picture of your circuit.

Carroll
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: mscoffman on January 10, 2016, 02:13:48 PM
I haven't looked up the transistors you are using but the standard 2N3055 NPN is supposed to be open off
(leakage only) when there is no base drive. The bipolar transistor transfer equation is Iec = Beta * Ibe.
a current amplifier. There may be some small current in the circuit used to bias the transistor *towards*
the on state normally - but

This is consistent with what I know of how the Bedini Circuit works; The Magnet moving towards (or away) from
the trigger coil is what drives the transistor closer to being fully on. This is a magnetic mirror where the coil reflects
what the magnet looks like to the coil back to it in reverse polarity. Pushing or pulling depending on the polarity from
versus to. So that when the magnet is closest to the coil the transistor is most fully on.

To have it any other way would be to inefficient. You would be wasting energy turning the coil on when the magnet
is very far from the coil. The Bedini circuit is inherently efficient.

---

Change your 12V light experiment around, the bulb should be connect to the power supply plus terminal,
the other side of the bulb to the transistor collector and connect the emitter to the supply minus terminal.

Now if you touch the transistor base to the PS plus terminal the bulb should begin to light. If you use a low
value of resistor in series with base like 10 Ohms the bulb should still light, but a high value like 10KOhms
it won't. If you happen to have a current range DVM, you could validate the transistor transfer equation
above.   

Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 10, 2016, 03:24:27 PM
THank you all.

I will post this schematic data a little later today.

earthbound.
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: magnetman12003 on January 10, 2016, 11:17:39 PM
Hello All,

I seem to be having a Bedini Transistor Problem.

A little history first:
Coil is 8 filar
Transistors used- TIP3055, SC5027
Battery- 12 volt 18ah
 
Try a TIP35C TRANSISTOR.  I HAVE HAD GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. NEVER BURNED OUT.

I have built the Bedini circuit described in the Bedini Beginner's Handbook. I have noticed that the transistor Collector-Emitter appears to be in an open state as soon as I connect the run battery. This is proven because of the light I have connected across the Collector and base. I am using a 12 volt car light merely to check to see if there is voltage available at anytime. The base is not even energized in the normal way.
This is very bizarre as I even checked it without the Trigger coil wires connected to anything on my second go round and the magnets are not being rotated.
This is being done via a breadboard.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
TY,
earthbound


I honestly cannot figure any other way that the circuit could be in an open state.
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 11, 2016, 02:30:33 AM
Alright everyone.
Here are some pictures to see.

The first shows a complete topdown view of the entire project. Crude but everything is in order as far as I know. I built everything according to the plans.

The 2nd one shows only the small breadboard.
The SC5027 is an NPN with the 123 pins being Base, Collector and Emitter. I used this one because of the high voltages allowed. I also tried the TIP3055 which has the same pin configuration. Neither one worked in my setup.

Interestingly enough when I used these same transistors with the base being controlled by my Arduino and using much lower voltages across the Collector and Emitter, it lit an LED without incident.

The 3rd picture show only the 12 volt car light across the C-E junction.  The standard in the Bedini circuit, although has the voltage being 100 volts for a Neon bulb. I do have those as well, but didn't think to use them during this experiment as I was only interested in being sure the circuit is working at all, not in how much voltage is being generated.

Thanks to anyone who can help sort this out. I am all ears.
earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: citfta on January 11, 2016, 03:30:23 AM
Ok a couple more questions.  Do you have a meter?  Can you post the schematic for us to look at?  I am talking about the electronic drawing that shows how all the parts get connected together.  I see one thing that doesn't look right if this is supposed to be the 8filer version of the SSG.  You don't appear to have the one end of the trigger winding connected to ground.  At least as far as I can tell from following the clip leads around.  It also appears you only have some of the 8filer wires connected.  How did you decide which ones to connect?  You also need to know the neon is to protect the transistor from the high voltage spikes.  You do not want to run the circuit without the charge battery as then you will be flashing the neon bulb as it protects the transistor.  I can't really tell, so what kind of magnets do you have on the small wheel?  This whole circuit works much better with a small bicycle wheel and a few more magnets.  Those small wheels can be used but it takes some pretty good knowledge about how to tune things to get them working right.  One last question, have you built a simple bifiler SSG and gotten it to work?
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 11, 2016, 04:19:22 AM
hello citfta and all others,

Here is the circuit picture.

I do have a meter. How would you wish for me to try this?

I am only connecting a single Main coil wire to a single transistor. In this circuit the trigger wire is connected at one point as seen in the circuit drawing. In another attempt, The trigger coil is not connected at all. The point is, there is voltage coming through the Collector-Emitter without there being any input to the Base. That is why it appears to me that there is a closed connection through there.

I am purposely not using a charge battery and using the light to merely show the voltage coming off the Main coil, but as I have said, I get power right from the battery through the Collector- Emitter, and there is no reason to even attempt spinning the wheel rotor at this point because the circuit is not right in some way.

My magnets are 5/8" neodymiums. If I interrupt the power myself I can get the rotor to spin. Of course it is impossible to keep that up efficiently.

Quote
One last question, have you built a simple bifiler SSG and gotten it to work?
No I have not. I felt this would work the same way if I only used  1 of my 7 main coil wires and the trigger coil wires, as long as i could work out the kinks.

TY,
earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: citfta on January 11, 2016, 12:01:56 PM
I am going to suggest a few things to try.  First you should know that neos are not recommended as they are too strong for this circuit.  You only need a magnet strong enough to trigger the base of the transistor.  But we will see if we can get it running with what you have.  I am going to give you a set of steps to follow.  Please complete each step in order and if you have a problem then ask and we will solve that problem before going to the next step.

For the first step I want you to install the neon from the collector to the emitter to protect the transistor for when we get your circuit working.

From your description of your problem I am understanding that as soon as you try to run the circuit the coil energizes and and does not turn back off.  It that is correct then the coil should either be attracting a magnet and holding it so the rotor can't turn or it should be repelling the magnets away from the coil.  If the coil is attracting a magnet and holding it then you need to swap the ends of the power coil.  By that I mean to take the end that is connected to the battery and connect it to the collector and take the end that was connected to the collector and connect it to the battery.  After this connect power to the circuit and give the wheel a very hard spin.

If the coil when powered keeps pushing the magnets away then you need to swap the trigger coil ends and then try it again with a hard spin.  After you get it to work you need to replace the resistor with a pot (potentiometer) so that you can tune the circuit with a charge battery connected.

If those suggestions don't work then I need you to take some measurements with your meter.  With power to the circuit.  I want you to measure the voltage at the collector by putting one meter lead at the emitter and the other end at the collector.  I also want you to measure the voltage at the base by leaving one lead on the emitter and putting the other lead on the base connection.  Please post that information so we can work out what to try next.  I don't think we will need to do this as I think the above steps should solve your problem but I included this to give you some more help.

Let me know what happens and good luck.
Carroll

PS: I just realized something.  If you have not tried this circuit without the automotive bulb that is probably the cause of your trouble.  Connecting the bulb from collector to emitter creates a low resistance path the will turn on the coil and cause problems.  Do not connect the auto bulb to any part of the circuit and then test everything again.
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 11, 2016, 01:17:33 PM
Thank you citfta for these recommendations.

I will try these later today and get back with you this evening.

earthbound.
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 11, 2016, 01:23:00 PM
One other thing I noted when doing a continuity check with the CS5027 transistor and that is the collector pin is connected to the backing plate and therefore could be grounded easily. Since I'm not an electrically trained person I don't know about these things, just merely making a note. The reason I see this as important is because the positive from the battery runs through here via the Main coil and because this backing plate is often in contact with a heat sink.

TY,
earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 11, 2016, 08:04:54 PM
To mscoffman

Quote
.....This is consistent with what I know of how the Bedini Circuit works; The Magnet moving towards (or away) from
the trigger coil is what drives the transistor closer to being fully on. This is a magnetic mirror where the coil reflects
what the magnet looks like to the coil back to it in reverse polarity. Pushing or pulling depending on the polarity from
versus to. So that when the magnet is closest to the coil the transistor is most fully on.

To have it any other way would be to inefficient. You would be wasting energy turning the coil on when the magnet
is very far from the coil. The Bedini circuit is inherently efficient.

---

Change your 12V light experiment around, the bulb should be connect to the power supply plus terminal,
the other side of the bulb to the transistor collector and connect the emitter to the supply minus terminal.

Now if you touch the transistor base to the PS plus terminal the bulb should begin to light. If you use a low
value of resistor in series with base like 10 Ohms the bulb should still light, but a high value like 10KOhms
it won't. If you happen to have a current range DVM, you could validate the transistor transfer equation
above.   

In trying to understand your info I seem to see this:

I looked over the entire Bedini schematic and can now see clearly why MY setup is wrong. My 12 volt light bulb, even though connected properly, will continuously be lit simply because I am connecting the bulb straight to the positive and negative sides of the battery at the same time. I am not really going through the transistor circuit because I have bypassed it essentially.

It would seem that by using the higher voltage Neon as directed it would prevent the passage of that 12 volt energy through it, maybe acting as a resistor, and force the 12 volt energy to be directed through the transistor as intended when the base is energized by the Trigger coil and thereby activating the pathway from the collector to the emitter..

Any comments? I will definitely try this tonight after I get home and get back to the forum with my success.
TY,
earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 11, 2016, 08:08:23 PM
Additionally, I will put the 12 volt light bulb downstream on the emitter side and keep the Neon in the crossover state as mentioned last post. At least that way I will able to see the results of the energy going through the trasnsistor when the base actually energizes it.

earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 11, 2016, 11:03:05 PM
OK citfta. WE have contact. Hooray!

Now to share some data with the energizer spinning.
Voltages:
  a. Through the base - 1.56 volts without a resistor. Using the 470 ohm resistor. No go.
  b. Collector to ground- 9.10 volts
  c. Emitter to ground - ~200 mv

The neon never came on that I could see. I would have thought I would have some light pulsating based on expected values from the Main coil field collapse.
I heatsinked the transistor and it got very warm.

Your requested values. Will be very close as above.

Emitter to Collector--8.95
Base to Emitter - 1.76 - 1.805

I am not using caps or a charge battery yet off the charge circuit.

Looking forward to the next class citfta.

TY,
earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: citfta on January 11, 2016, 11:25:37 PM
Ok glad you got it working.  So now that the rotor is spinning we need to make some adjustments.  I am also surprised that the neon is not flashing.  To get things working correctly we need to have the charge battery connected in the circuit.  You also need to have a pot connected to the base.  If this circuit is working correctly the transistor should not be getting more than a little warm.  So you need to get the diode connected from the collector to the charge battery and a pot to the base installed and then try the circuit again.  Try the pot at a low resistance setting and gradually increase the resistance and see what the rotor does.  A word of caution.  The rotor may get up to a very high speed.  Be sure the magnets are epoxied into place or held securely so they do not come flying out.  People have been injured using those small wheels when the magnets have come loose.  The bicycle wheel version turns much slower and therefore is safer to work with.

The voltage on the base of the transistor is pretty high.  That is probably why it is getting hot.  With everything working correctly your meter will probably show around .7 to .8 volts or so.

Let us know how it runs with everything connected as it should be and tuned up.

Carroll
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 12, 2016, 05:35:58 AM
Update using caps - 2 each, 35 volt 2200 uF wired in series to give me 70 volts. This is my battery for the moment. When I get the time I'll add the second
 real battery and use some caps as the intermediaries, since I've read that the charge batteries can actually be ruined in the long haul by the radiant energy directly discharged from the Main coils.

After a short run using my single main coil I accidentally overcharged the caps to 85+ volts. I can only imagine having them all connected! Probably the switch that would be used to discharge the caps into the battery would have to be discharged many times per second.

The Transistor on the heatsink did stay cooler this time, but I didn't really run it a long time after noticing the overcharged condition on the caps.

And again, using the 470 ohm resistor, nothing worked. Using a 220 ohm resistor it did work for a little while (but was extremely hot to touch thereafter), then the machine ran out of gas. The 100 ohm resistor, acted the same. Again, only when taking off the resistor completely did it work again.  I am not able to connect a potentiometer in place of the resistor yet. Will try to work on that over the next few days. It would have to be a very low resistance type, which doesn't seem to be easily available at a good price.

I have noticed a significant amount of torque for such a small device.

After awhile I replaced the SC5027 Transistor with my TIP3055. My Base voltage reading is lower at 0.435 volts, but the transistor did warm up consderably.

 
Also, thanks for the advice on the centrifugal danger with the magnets. Mine are epoxied in, but prudence is always in vogue.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, especially citfta,
earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: TinselKoala on January 12, 2016, 07:11:04 AM
You may find this of interest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2yx-07r77s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyrupNcq4co
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 12, 2016, 01:46:32 PM
thank you TinselKoala,

I will review these today.

earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 13, 2016, 05:21:06 AM
To all involved. Thank you.

Update tonight:
I went out and got another 12 volt 18 amp hr battery as my charging battery. Then connected everything according to this schematic.

I was able to get up to a 220 ohm resistor but could not get to the 470 ohm ever. My system just wouldn't work.
I have not tried a variable resistor yet. Not enough time tonight.

Also, too, the transistor, TIP3055 heatsinked and doing great, not even getting warm. The resistor is not warm either, nor the coil wires.

All in all, fine tuning is in order. I have no scopes to test anything, but at this point in my experimentation, it is a nonissue and out of my budget range. A digital tachometer could be afforded though.

I did make voltage measurements between the run battery and the charge battery and can see that there is indeed a noticeable voltage increase compared to discharge between these 2 batteries. Now the thing that is most noticeable and interesting is that I am doing all this with only one single Main Coil wire connected. I can only guess that with all 7 connected and pumping energy into the system I should see a bigger increase in my voltage gain to the charge battery.

I did get the Neon to light once after everything was connected and running, I purposely disconnected the wire running from the charge battery positive through the diode towards the collector side of the transistor. I got a massive spike of energy that lit the neon and then totally shut down my system. It was strange, but cool. I was able to successfully get everything started again easily after that.

A couple of things in the near future.
1.  I definitely would like to build a unit with higher mass that might be able to produce more mechanical energy. One of the things I read in the Bedini manual is that increasing the diameter of the rotor (wheel) has a positive effect on energy output.
2. In the manual, getting the timing of the coil cycles is very important to maximizing energy output. TinselKoala shows that on the videos he linked earlier for me. I saw those today.
3. Also, adding in the capacitor(s) in front of the charge battery is high on my list to help protect the batteries being charged.

I am open for more suggestions and I appreciate everyone who has helped me here. It does pay to follow the instructions to the Tee.

TY,
earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: citfta on January 13, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
Very glad you are getting everything to work like it should.  And you have already learned a few things.  That is also good.  For now you need to just spend some time with the system and get used to how to tune it and see how things change as the charge battery gets charged and the run battery gets low.  And there are many other things to watch and learn from also.

When you are ready to move up a little then make a bigger wheel and get it to run and start learning some more.  By the way none of these energizers are really meant to be a motor.  The wheel is just a way to get the transistor to turn on and off.  As a motor they just have too low of torque to be very useful.  I know there are some on the internet that try to make them into a motor but according to John Bedini they are not designed to be a motor.

Have fun and learn a lot.

Carroll
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: TinselKoala on January 14, 2016, 12:41:31 AM
No-rotor MHOP (better-than-Bedini PM):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0sjqoshznU
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 14, 2016, 01:43:30 PM
TY citfta for the encouragement and kind words through your teaching style. Good for newbies and experienced alike. I will definitely be exploring more.

TinselKoala, thanks for the link for the MHOP data. I saw most of your vids on that subject yesterday and was very intrigued. Are there any clearer diagrams for the comparator circuit? It is very difficult to see some of the text at higher resolution. Everything tends to get a little blurry, pixelated. I would like to hear more about this setup.

Thanks to all for your help.

earthbound
Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: TinselKoala on January 14, 2016, 05:18:41 PM
Here's the latest schematic for the MHOP V.3. It's really not as complicated as it looks.

Not shown is the LED strobe circuit (4017 divide-by-four and 555 monostable pulse shortener).

Title: Re: Bedini Transistor Problem
Post by: earthbound0729 on January 14, 2016, 11:09:58 PM
Thank you for this sir. I can see. Nicely done.
I will download, make the circuit and get back to you.
I know I'll have to get some of these parts online so it might take a little while. There is no decent distributor around here. I am in coastal Texas.

earthbound