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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 04:37:45 AM

Title: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 04:37:45 AM
Hello Everyone,

I have decided this is the thread that will be utilized for the attempted replication of Steorn's Permanent Magnet Motor.

I think to get started we need to do do three things.

1) Set some rules. No spamming or skeptical naysaying slandering on this thread. Honest skepticism is indeed allowed and encouraged, but NOT attacks or statements that show someone has an absolute closed mind.

2) We need to decide what we know so far about Steorn's technology. Basically, we know that one version of their technology is compsed of a wheel attached to a rotor. On this wheel there are four permanent magnets. On the stator there is a permanent magnet. When the wheel is moved in one direction energy is gained and the device with self-power itself. When the wheel is moved the other way the wheel will lose energy.

3) We need to find a source of cheap magnets that should be suitable for such an experiment and define the basic parameters of our attempts. Since Steorn claims that their device is scalable from the very small scale to the very large scale (while saying the effect works slightly better on the small scale or packs more punch so to speak) we should focus on smaller devices. Smaller devices would require smaller magnets and less materials. This would equal less cost and less expense for those of us with very, very limited financial means. Also, if we are successful it would mean making kits would be much cheaper.

---

So who is interested in joining me!

Anyone know a source of very cheap neodymium magnets?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: energyman8 on October 25, 2006, 05:24:37 AM
Nice babcat, err vorlon

Should be interesting to see what kind of interest picks up here. 8)
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: supersam on October 25, 2006, 05:31:12 AM
ok vorlon,

do you really want to build a magnet motor or learn about marketing?

i did like your idea of varying flux magnets.  but this bull caca about steorn isn't going to pay the bills i'm afraid.  i've seen em come and iv'e seen em go as the sayings would have it.  but i still like the idea! 

when you order your new magnets to start experimenting with, i would definitealy order alot of different sizes.  i think that is one thing i or anybody else i ever heard of tried.  see if you can get some idea of the sizes of the fields and some rational way to make them just push an object around a continuos 360 before you spend even that much.  it looks like you have the internet.  not saying that experimentation is a bad thing but it can't hurt you to look if your down to the wire.  been there and done that already.

lol
sam
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 05:42:55 AM
First of all, I'm not in this to market anything at all. I want to build one of these motors or have someone build one. I want an overunity device to be built, period. The world I want to live in cannot happen unless we obtain new clean, cheap, and abundant energy sources. And the reason I said anything about kits is not to really *sell* anything, but once we get something working (if that happens) to make sure people will WANT to replicate it. If it cost an arm and a leg or took a lot of work to replicate no one would be that interested.

I'm investigating the best place to order magnets or obtain some locally. The only local option I am aware of are the toy kits called Magnetix, but for the number of small magnets you would obtain an individual could get more per dollar from any internet vender. I'm honestly pretty much down to the wire financially and I'm going to have to figure out exactly how I can get the most for my money.

I also agree on getting various shapes and sizes of magnets. Steorn has said that their technology is moving permanent magnets through magnetic fields they have created with permanent magnets. To try and replicate this I need to obtain many different shapes and sizes of magnets, but since I'm going to work on a small device I will generally look for smaller ones.

Also, I will need to do research into how magnetic fields work and how they can be manipulated by other magnets and various materials.

Of course, I want to be honest. I don't know how fast I am going to get the materials and magnets to start this, but I'm working on it now. My honest hope is this thread will take off like the lifters replication page on JLNLabs with a ton of people working, posting pictures, posting setups, etc. Quite frankly, I don't care if any of my setups ever work or not. It would be nice, but that's not the point. I want SOMEONE to make a working setup anyone can replicate. That should be our goal.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: giantkiller on October 25, 2006, 05:58:07 AM

http://www.mullerpower.com/index2.php
and
google Perendev motor

--giantkiller
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 06:16:21 AM
Giant Killer,

Thank for the link and the information. Apparently, that guys motor used a combination of various methods to achieve overunity. However, Steorn is doing it with only permanent magnets. In my opinion, that allows experimentation by the laymen and individuals who are not educated or skilled enough to build complex circuits or complex mechanisms. What I'm hoping is that we will find a way to produce a configuration of magnets either on the stator or rotor or both that allow us to produce self sustaining motion.

My ultimate hope is that we will be able to post plans online with the exact magnets and materials someone would need to purchase. Hopefully, the parts would be affordable enough so that the average person could build one and we will get tons and tons of replications. Once that happens, if it happens, the world would change forever.

However, I'm going through that page and certainly seeing what that man had to say. Anyone that can build something that complex and something that achieves overunity deserves respect.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: supersam on October 25, 2006, 06:43:21 AM
REVLON,

perindev hasn't done it yet either, YOU CAN STILL BE THE FIRST!!!!!
that is all i am going to say for now.

lol, keep up the good work,
sam
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: dean_mcgowan on October 25, 2006, 06:59:32 AM
you could start by posting a picture of the current steorn device .. i havent seen it yet ???
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 07:57:41 AM
We really don't have a picture of the Steorn device. We have pictures of a few test rigs in that there are additional arms for measuring various forces. But I cannot determine anything from them. All we really know is that when one set of permanent magnets on a rotor go through a magnetic field created by permanent magnets on the stator that the rotor will gain power when moving in one direction and lose power in the opposite direction. In one example of their technology there are four magnets on the rotor and only one on the stator, according to the claims of an individual who visited their lab.

Basically, the thing we need to do is see if we can get a rotor spinning by placing magnets on it and on an external stator. It's going to be a challenging task, but hopefully along the way we will get help from Steron. It was recently said on their website that the next part of their flash presentation would deal with the device and that it will be made clear then.

Does anyone here know of any retail outlets that sell neodymium magnets? Would there be any in common hardware stores for sale?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 08:33:22 AM
I have a serious question I want to ask that is important in my opinion.

To push past a sticky point requires a certain ammount of energy.

Lets say we had a magnet on a rotor with north facing out and a magnet on the stator with north facing in so we have a repulsive force.

The key question is this.

Does it take less kinetic energy to push past the sticky point than the ammount of kinetic energy given after making it past the sticky point?
I think this is a KEY and CRITICAL question we need to answer.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 25, 2006, 10:48:06 AM
Guys, you're WAY off the track on getting started. I am not with Steorn at all, but I am building a demo model.

The reason I say you are off the track is because you are hung up on the magnets. They are no big deal. Like one article said, magnets arranged in a circle is nothing new. Correct. Don't get hung up on that. It could use 4 magnets, 2, 10, 20, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that they be placed equidistance from each other on an a spinnable axis. Why, because the damned wheel would be out of balance and fly apart even at low rpm if they weren't. Simple physics, the placement and number of magnets has nothing to do with Steorn's motor.

So what is new, what is it they discovered? You will NOT find the answer to that by reading articles on the web. You will not find that on the forum at steorn.net (not yet anyhow). But you will find it in their patent application.
http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2006035419&F=0&QPN=WO2006035419
Read it. This is the central component to the concept. Read it once, twice, three times. Let it rattle around in your head for a day in between each reading. There is something new and revolutionary in that application. And if you don't get it from that application, you'll never get it. Remember what Sean keeps saying - it is incredibly simple, but it is a revolutionary concept. And, the application is very well written, the preferred embodiment fully supports the claims, but does not explain the concept in straightforward fashion - you've got to figure out what it is that is new and unique. This patent is for a device that can "toggle" a permanent magnet's magnetic field on and off - and do it with an amount of energy considerably less than the strength of the magnet's magnetic field.

Instead of concentrating on the magnets, concentrate on the magnetic shield. Understand how a magnetic shield works. It's actually a misnomer, it makes one think that a shield repells a magnetic field. Instead a shield works because it absorbs a magnetic field and DEFLECTS it in a path around the magnet so space beyond the shield is considerably free of the field. But, because a shield absorbs so much of the field, the shield is attracted to the magnet and it takes exactly as much energy to move the shield away from the magnet as the shield deflects. And yet, to toggle the field on and off, the shield has to move. That's the genius of the Steorn discovery. Hint, hint, hint - understand the meaning of the word BALANCE in the application. What is being balanced?

Also, here's a little on how patents work - they are only granted to the first persons to have the idea, not the first to apply for it. And, once the idea has been published in a form that someone skilled in the art can deduce how it works, the inventor(s) have only one year in which to file for the patent, after that year it is public domain. Steorn has filed for patents but has remained cagey about giving out too much info. Why? Because they are not sure why this thing even works! They are being prudent, perhaps the work of the jury will give them new insights into the claims they should be making. Remember, a patent is not about the THING, it is about the IDEA, and the claims to that IDEA. (that's why the THING in a patent is referred to as only the "preferred embodiment")

Don't get the idea that you're going to build a demo cheaply. I've got between 150 to 200 USD in parts and tools headed my way this week......  I'll keep you all uptodate.

wizard@steornquest.com
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: gyulasun on October 25, 2006, 11:31:45 AM
Hi,

I think if you attach a permanent magnet on the side of a refrigerator and then you would like to remove it, you have to use a relatively strong lifting force with your fingers THAN you have to use to push/shift the magnet sideways (in any direction on the surface of the fridge).
And the smoother the surface of the fridge and that of the magnet, the less force you have to use for pushing the magnet sideways.

Is not the same fact used in the patent with the shield on the linear bearing in front of three magnets? Here the magnets are fixed and the shield is moved with a small force.

Gyula
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 02:47:16 PM
I am going to read that patent, but Steorn has stated that their permanent magnet technology does NOT use shielding and is about a fixed permanent magnet. From what I understand, there are no other mechanical parts. It's simple a rotor, magnets on the rotor, and a configuration of magnets on the stator.

Also, they must know they are correct, because according to their claims their devices already self power and keep spinning and spinning. If that happens, then their technology works and they can be confident that it works.

Oh, I just checked out that patent link you provided.

They have already clearly said that is NOT related to their core technology.

If you can explain otherwise, then please do so.

Also, thank you for talking with us and for keeping us updated on your experiments.

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 03:06:13 PM
Cache,

Now, I'm pretty confused. I read that patent in detail and it does seem like the device could indeed be used to create a permanent magnet motor, but at the same time Steorn has said that their core technology does not use shielding and that this patent is not part of that technology. So do they have a completely different technology that is not patented yet which does NOT require this device, and *also* have a patent on this device which *could* create a magnetic motor, but is NOT part of their current technology?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Jdo300 on October 25, 2006, 03:11:32 PM
Hi Everyone,

To get a better idea of how to gain energy using permanent magnets, check out this article I wrote here:

http://www.fdp.nu?free_energy.asp?book=90 (http://www.fdp.nu?free_energy.asp?book=90)

God Bless,
Jason O
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 03:41:26 PM
I have posted this question on the moderated section of the Steorn forum. I would appreciate it if all of you in a polite, respectful, and non-hostile way would go on the forum and ask Steorn to provide us with an answer.

Dear Steorn,

I have carefully read your patent on the Low Energy Magnet Actuator at the following URL

http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO2006035419&F=0&QPN=WO2006035419

I had not read the patent previously due to the fact that your company stated it was not part of your core technology.

"Hi, the patent refered to (the low energy magnetic actuator) is not a patent on the core steorn technology."

That statement made me believe that your over-unity magnetic motor did NOT use the above device or at least it was not critical to your devices function. However, what's unique is the above device could indeed be critical for the function of a permanent magnetic motor even if you are not using it for such a purpose at the present.

Unless I am mistaken, I believe (if I am wrong please correct me and I will publically confess my mistake and apologize) you have stated that your technology that allows for your overunity magnetic motor to function does not use shielding and only uses stationary permanent magnets.

Basically, the concept I have had in my mind of how your technology functions is that you have a rotor with a wheel attached. On this wheel are some number of fixed permanent magnets. On the stator is one or more fixed permanent magnets. There are no shielding occuring or mechanical devices such as the Low Energy Magnet Actuator involved. Quite simple, the bare magnetic fields on the rotor created by permanent magnets interact with the magnetic fields on the stator created by another set of permanent magnets to gain energy when moved in one direction. Nothing else is needed.

I have gathered the above from reading the information on this site, your comments on this forum, and from statements on the internet.

However, I cannot help but be perplexed by the fact you have a patent on a Low Energy Magnet Actuator which could create an overunity magnet motor. I'm not saying you have been anything but completely and totally honest with us. Hearing you speak in various interviews you sound like a man of integrity and character. But at this point I cannot help but be perplexed by the connection between the Low Energy Magnet Actuator and your technology.

If possible, I would like for you to answer a question. Because it's critical to many of us who are trying to understand your technology, attempt replicating your technology, and sharing the news of your companies discovery with other people. The following is a very important question and I am sincerely hoping you will answer, because I am literally desperate to understand your technology due to it's EXTREME importance to the future of all our lives and the lives of every human on this planet.

Does your over-unity permanent magnet motor simply utilize permanent magnets in one or more configurations creating magnetic fields to provide for the gain in energy (without any type of shielding or mechanical device such as the Low Energy Magnet Actuator being involved) or is some type of mechanism providing shielding or switching of magnetic fields such as the L.E.M.A or other device involved?

Thank you Sean for your time. Please consider answering the above question.
 

----


Cache,

This is an issue I want to get cleared up so we can all be like minded about how we need to go about replicating their technology and also importantly what we know about their technology. On the faq on their very website they claim that they do NOT use magnetic shielding and that the patent for the Low Energy Magnet Actuator is not related to their technology. I'm going to trust whatever response they give to my question, because honestly if they say their overunity magnet motor technology is not using shielding or the LEMA then (even if the LEMA could be used for over-unity) we must respect that and recognize it's not used in their device.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 05:41:08 PM
I'm going to check again very carefully to make sure it is not an artifact of my web browser or I'm just losing my sanity, but it appears that Steorn deleted the thread I made asking the above question. I really, really hope they did not delete it, because it was a very valid question.

Ok. It seems like it was deleted. But in another post on a seperate thread this is said.

Quote
Hi Folks,

It has nothing to do with the OU technology.

Thanks,

Sean


I guess we need to just assume at this point it has nothing at all to do with their technology whatsoever. Nothing means zero so I'm going to trust Sean in that their technology has absolutely NOTHING to do with that device.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 06:09:03 PM
gyulasun,

That sounds logical to me. Basically, what I'm trying to think about in my mind is how we can configure a rotor so that at every sticky point there is enough force being produced by another arm/stator to push past them. It's all about making sure that we can generate a pattern of "pushes" at the right time so that in every cycle at the right moment there is enough force to push past the sticky points.

But for any of my ideas to work the KEY must be that more force is produced after getting past the sticky point than is taken to overcome the repulsion to get to the point a pushing force is generated.

For example.

Lets say this line represents the length of motion of a magnet traveling to a sticky point while facing resistance from it's magnetic field.

_________

The X will represent the sticky point at which the magnet stops.

________X

The Y will represent the exact point that must be reached for a propulsive force to take over.

________X Y

The elevated line will represent the

The elevated line represents the length of motion when the magnet is being repelled away.

_______X Y ------------

Ok, now let me ask a few questions.

1) Do you get more or less energy after hitting the Y point than you do getting to the Y point?

2) How much further do you have to push past X to reach the Y point for acceleration to occur? Does acceleration occur if you push a tiny, tiny bit past X or is there a significant ammount of physical space between X and Y?

3) What is the resistance curve like pushing through X until you hit the Y point? Is the ammount of resistance steady, increasing, or does it start to decrease as you get closer to Y? Is there a curve of resistance?

I have some ideas of how to get past the sticky point in my mind, but really need to solve the above before I progress any further.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 06:43:50 PM
I just noticed something. Go to this video on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFYRuYn__Ro&mode=related&search=

Go to second number 17.

Could those be the magnets on the rotor and the stator magnet? Please tell me what you think?

Here is another video with some pictures... can you make anything out of them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNDIWY19gqA&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: FredWalter on October 25, 2006, 10:03:22 PM
Hint, hint, hint

I'm not trying to rebuild the Steorn device, but for those people that are, rather than saying "hint, hint, hint", why don't you come right out, help everyone that doesn't get it, and directly explain your point?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: canam101 on October 25, 2006, 11:33:14 PM
Take a look at the Steorn forum and the thread at http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=22133&page=1

a1trips and Feynman pretty much spell out what the 'secret' of Steorn's overunity is,
in their opinion.

The remaining bit is something that Feynman (Frank Grimer) said a month ago: that,
according to his gamma-atmosphere theory, OU should occur if a rotor magnet
approaches a stator magnet quickly, and pulls away slowly.

Maybe that implies that pulling away a shield as the rotor magnet approaches
the stator magnet is equivalent to a quick approach.

I don't really know; but the people here seem to include a lot of talented builders.
Check out the Steorn link above and see if you can put it all together.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: gyulasun on October 26, 2006, 12:14:25 AM
gyulasun,

That sounds logical to me. Basically, what I'm trying to think about in my mind is how we can configure a rotor so that at every sticky point there is enough force being produced by another arm/stator to push past them. It's all about making sure that we can generate a pattern of "pushes" at the right time so that in every cycle at the right moment there is enough force to push past the sticky points.

But for any of my ideas to work the KEY must be that more force is produced after getting past the sticky point than is taken to overcome the repulsion to get to the point a pushing force is generated.

For example.

Lets say this line represents the length of motion of a magnet traveling to a sticky point while facing resistance from it's magnetic field.

_________

The X will represent the sticky point at which the magnet stops.

________X

The Y will represent the exact point that must be reached for a propulsive force to take over.

________X Y

The elevated line will represent the

The elevated line represents the length of motion when the magnet is being repelled away.

_______X Y ------------

Ok, now let me ask a few questions.

1) Do you get more or less energy after hitting the Y point than you do getting to the Y point?

2) How much further do you have to push past X to reach the Y point for acceleration to occur? Does acceleration occur if you push a tiny, tiny bit past X or is there a significant ammount of physical space between X and Y?

3) What is the resistance curve like pushing through X until you hit the Y point? Is the ammount of resistance steady, increasing, or does it start to decrease as you get closer to Y? Is there a curve of resistance?

I have some ideas of how to get past the sticky point in my mind, but really need to solve the above before I progress any further.

Hi,

Thanks for asking but I am afraid your questions can only be answered by considering a practical setup/arrangements of magnets and experience the forces at the crucial points. Usually at a sticky point the unwanted flux can be reduced by shielding, by electromagnet (whose coil has got air core) but unfortunately in most of the cases these points can be shifted away only and they will still exist elsewhere. A good solution to ease the effect of a sticky point is to use a robust rotor which can utilize flywheel effect with its appropiate mass.
Perhaps the combination of all these 'tricks' is still not enough, sorry for this but I am not a wizard unfortunately.
If there were a definite answer for your question(s), we would all have a working pm motor already...

The shielding method by the Steorn patent you refer to is a very clever one because in that arrangement the shield INHERENTLY needs very little force to move it back and forth due to fact I mentioned with the fridge example.
If Steorn really deleted your letter with your question, it may also mean it is a 'sticky' topic for them... obviously they have to cover things.  Anyway, I think if someone could find a clever mechanical setup for building the shielding principle of the patent, it would bring a working overunity motor. I think this is what 'cache' is trying to point out.  And this OU motor can be either the one Steorn has now or be a completely different one, we can have at least one of them (or I say both) and this is a promising situation.

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 26, 2006, 12:38:58 AM
And what makes you think that the "device" in the youTube videos have anything to do with the Steorn device? Those were news broadcasts. The images are probably stock "clip art" from a library under the category - mechanical devices.

I know Sean has said at http://www.steorn.net/en/faq.aspx?p=4 that

1) "The technology does not use a magnetic shield." That was in reference to a question about the Cheng device. lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/museum/unwork.htm#cheng and the answer is technically correct.

2) Question: "Is the patent for magnet shield relevant to your invention?" Answer: "No". Technically again Sean is correct. Why? Because the claims in application WO 2006/035419 A1 are too narrow. Once you understand the role of the balancing magnet in the claims, anyone skilled in the art can see how to "design around the claims". This is a common error inventors make, they zero in on what they've discovered, design claims to cover only the scope of what they saw wearing those blinders, and then stand by helplessly while industry "designs around their narrow claims". Sadly that is the fate of most patents. If the claim says you use a red blot to connect the molenshrig to the frebenzabble then anyone using a green bolt is not infringing on your patent rights. My guess is, that within a couple of days of the Economist Challenge someone brought the deficiency of their claims to light and they have now amended the application - so technically application WO 2006/035419 A1 is not relevant to the invention, probably WO 2006/035419 A2 IS but we wont see that for months.

The L.E.M.A. patent is NOT about magnetic shielding. It is about the balancing magnet in the drawing. Read the claims. Patents are granted only on the claims made. Steorn is not claiming to having invented magnetic sheilding, their claims are centered on the balancing of magnetic fields between a multiplicity of magnets contained within an enclosing environment, not necessarily a "magnetic shield". The term "magnetic shield" technically refers to a mu-metal, which is not necessary to their claims, any substance which is measurably permeable to a magnetic field could be substituted and remain within the scope of the claims. That's just one (the least important) deficiency in that application, there's more.

The day that Steorn published their challenge in The Economist it used the URL steorn.com. Five days later the steorn.com website disappeared and became a redirect to steorn.net. The two sites were similar EXCEPT all reference to the L.E.M.A. patent was missing in the Our Technology section. On the missing steorn.com site they not only made reference to that patent, you could view the patent application on the site. There was also a link to an article published in a newspaper in India in March where the reporter even referred to a company in Ohio as the source for Steorn's magnetic shield in the device he saw at Steorn's offices in Ireland.



Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 26, 2006, 01:13:27 AM
The shielding method by the Steorn patent you refer to is a very clever one because in that arrangement the shield INHERENTLY needs very little force to move it back and forth due to fact I mentioned with the fridge example.

Wrong. Let's take your fridge magnet. It takes less force to slide the magnet accross the fridge than it takes to pull the magnet off the fridge because you are not escaping the magnetic attraction by merely sliding the magnet around. We need to escape the magnetic field.

Look at their drawing in the patent application. There are TWO magnets, but the shield is only wide enough to cover one magnet at a time. Consider, as the shield moves far enough to expose 1/4th of magnet 1 it simultaneously moves enough to cover 1/4th of magnet 2. Throughout the entire motion from covering magnet 1 to instead covering magnet 2 the attraction of one magnet is replaced by the attraction of the other "balancing" magnet. Long story short, the magnetic attraction exposed to the shield remains constant while it is moved from magnet 1 to magnet 2. The result, it takes less energy to move the shield to expose magnet 1 than magnet 1 exerts in attracting the shield.

This url explains the concept. http://www.steornquest.com This url was on steorn.net's forum for a few days before they removed the posts containg the url. An enterprising poster there named Spartane0 posted the url with spaces between the letters to keep Steorn's censor from finding it. Don't take my word for it, go to http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13112&page=3 it's the 6th post from the bottom of that page. Spartane0 claimed they wiped out two other posts he made before he tricked them with the spaces.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: pinestone on October 26, 2006, 02:09:37 AM
Yes. It takes the same amount of force to 'get past' the 'sticky part'. You will always have 'zero'.

A couple of ways to avoid 'stick-sion' is to rotate or shunt the fields.

Remember folks, people have been trying to make OU with magnets for a hundred years or more.
The key to discovery is to make your own rules and not follow in the footsteps of others.
(you will just find the 'crumbs' they dropped).

Think 'out-of-the-box' and try everything ! (even if someone says you're crazy).

∞
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: capeguy on October 26, 2006, 02:32:36 AM
what is the sheild made out of?? another magnet, metal, non metallic, plastic???

these guys sell magnets...some powerful ones at that... a description below of 1 of them.
It weighs 17.34 oz's and has a pull strength of 640 lb's ...dam

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BZX0Y08


# Dimensions: 4" x 2" x 1/2" thick
# Material: NdFeB, Grade N42
# Plating/Coating: Ni-Cu-Ni (Nickel)
# Magnetization Direction: Thru Thickness
# Weight: 17.34 oz. (491.7 g)
# Pull Force: 640.50 lbs
# Surface Field: 5120 Gauss
# Brmax: 13,200 Gauss
# BHmax: 42 MGOe
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 03:00:11 AM
Cache,

If what you are saying is true Steorn is flat out lying with us when he says the device in that patent has nothing to do with the overunity technology. Also, technically the patented device does use magnetic shielding in at least one aspect. I sincerely hope that Steorn is not lying to us. They have boldly claimed their technology has nothing to do with that patent at all.

I have an alternate proposal. I'm willing to listen to anything you have to say, but let me get this out there. Steorn has repeatedly said they have a variety of versions of this technology. What if an EARLIER version of the technology (out of more than one) used the patented device, but others and the current implementation does not and simply uses permanent magnets alone?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: lancaIV on October 26, 2006, 05:50:10 AM
US3895245

S
  dL
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: pinestone on October 26, 2006, 06:52:12 AM

There are good people that try here.

All things here are great ideas, but nothing is working.

You're so right.
But we can't stop trying. What's the alternative?

Even if Steorn is full of shit, they have managed to stir the minds of thousands-
bringing to light one of the most basic powers of the universe, and yet nobody has ever managed to 'unleash' its potential.

I believe our collaboritive efforts will eventually change our reality.




sorry for the wild-cat post earlier. I removed it.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: canam101 on October 26, 2006, 12:03:32 PM
The key, supposedly, is Frank Grimer's remark that you get OU when the magnets approach quickly and separate slowly. The actuator is used to do that - to make the fields come together quickly.

The other pieces are in this thread.
http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=22133&page=1

It's speculation, but at least makes sense of steorn's patenting the actuator. Even though Sean McCarthy said it had nothing to do with the OU, that can probably be taken as a bit of misdirection.

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Speedy23 on October 26, 2006, 02:30:20 PM
Just a quickie -  can anyone with access to a model railway track and a truck, some mu-metal , 3 magnets and a spring balance verify that the main principle of the LEMA (i.e. that the force required to move the shield is much lower when balancing magnets are used) is in fact true, and if so, what order the difference is. I am wondering if the reason that the prototypes are described as generating "mechanical power" is that the motion generated is RECIPROCAL rather than ROTARY. Think steam engines.......also, how any form of mechanical cam is used to set the timing of the shields and/or magnet rotation thus achieving slow approach/rapid recession...might this  also be governed by shaping the shields appropriately. Is the significant bit in the interview the mention of "six fields"...... ???
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 03:45:57 PM
Well, I'm going with the idea that the LEMA has nothing to do with producing overunity. That is what Steorn is saying and according to this project we have to try and replicate what they claim to have made.

Actually, I'm glad of this. Honestly, for the laymen building a simple arrangment of magnets is indeed possible, but switching and more complicated circuits might be out of our league.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: JackFrost on October 26, 2006, 03:55:18 PM
The LEMA has EVERYTHING to do with it.

Trajectory is BS.  You have to shield - period.  Otherwise, the field vectors won't allow it to run continuous.  Shaun has his balls in the skillet an he's trying to get them out by throwing some BS variables into the equation.

Shaun's original response to the patents question:
"Hi, the patent refered to (the low energy magnetic actuator) is not a patent on the core steorn technology. Due to the fact that the US patent office does not allow patents with this claim we have filed a sequence of patents wich describe various aspects of the technology.

The patent refered to is at the PCT stage and hence is available to the public. Our other patents are currently pre-PCT and will move to the PCT phase (and hence be available to the public) in the near future.

Thanks,

The Steorn Team "

Here is the link to this thread:
http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=41&Focus=131#Comment_131

(EDIT) "Cache" - is close but hasn't built one or he would have it nailed down.  By the way, the images on Steornquest.com (same as the ones on simplemotor.com) will not work as shown.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: gyulasun on October 26, 2006, 05:27:07 PM
"Cache" - is close but hasn't built one or he would have it nailed down.  By the way, the images on Steornquest.com (same as the ones on simplemotor.com) will not work as shown.

Dear JackFrost,

Would you be so kind as to enlighten us what modifications are needed to make them work?

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 05:31:31 PM
Steorn has said that the LEMA has NOTHING to do with their overunity technology. Also, they have said they are not using magnetic shielding.

However, can't you manipulate the flux of one magnet with another magnet's flux? Could it be that by now they have found ways of manipulating the flux to eliminate the sticky points rather than using the LEMA?

My hope is that they are not lying to us. Sean McCarthy sounds ike an honest and trustworthy person to me, and I don't want to think he would mislead us.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Speedy23 on October 26, 2006, 07:21:21 PM
How about this: mechanism consists of 2 pairs balancing magnets and shield at either end as per LFMA patent, 2 reciprocating connecting rods each terminating in S & N pole magnets as shown below, con rods to be  linked together by rachet or escapement "X"  and  suitable linkages from ratchet to move shields from (a) to (b).  (I= shield, <- or -> = force direction and conrod/magnet assembly motion )

(a)

N           S------------------N I S     F and motion = <-
                     X
N I S------------------N           S     F and motion = ->


(b)
then switch the shield position by a linkage from "X"  so:

N I S-------------------N           S    F = ->
                      X
N             S------------------N I S    F = <-


Question: would this "hang"?.....or by timing the insertion/shaping of the shield and using a suitable flywheel on the rachet could this be overcome?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 26, 2006, 08:13:21 PM
thevorlon - your comment that Steorn may have used a shield in the past but do not use it on their current desiogn is possible. But, if that is true, Sean is still not being honest by saying it has nothing to do with it. Quit trying to defend Steorn. They are trying to validate and defend their invention, give them the space to do what they must to accomplish those goals. At the end of the day it matters not to the world or Steorn whether you or I got mislead along the way.

That said, suppose you're right, suppose they used a shield in an earlier design but now do not. Why chose to replicate one over the other. If we can replicate either we have proof of over-unity. Steorn has given us no clues at all on how to build without a shield. On the other hand, if we try to replicate a shield type design Steorn has given us clues to work with. There have been hundreds of serious proposals for non-shielded motors, none of which work. The best way to start building a non-shielded motor (absent any clues from Steorn) would be to cook up one more design that is different from all of the hundreds that do not work. The starting point for building a shielded motor is to review the two or three serious past proposals for a sheilded motor and isolate what is unique about Sterorn's LEMA clue.

We are not trying to re-invent the wheel here pal, we're just trying to re-invent Steorn's wheel.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 08:16:15 PM
Speedy,

That sounds like an interesting setup.

I do have a question I would like to ask about magnets. I was going to order some magnets last night, and spent about five hours looking up information about them online. However, I have never handled a neomydium magnet before. Just how strong are they? I need some idea before I make an order or at least further consider what I'm going to try and build.

How far away is the repulsive force for smaller neomydiums lets say one half to three quarters of an inch in diameter and about one eighth inch thick? I mean, what is the maximum distance that they will interact with one another? What about for a full one inch diameter and eighth inch thick magnet?

Also, does the field extend further out when you have more surface area?

Also, does anyone here know of some free flux mapping software which will map the various shape of flux of various shapes/sizes of magnets?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: JackFrost on October 26, 2006, 08:23:01 PM
Gentlemen,

Don't be so gulible.  The word trajectory wasn't being tossed around two months ago - was it?  Steorn was not flat-out denying that the LEMA had anything to do with the OU device.  Now - "mums" the word and deny, deny, deny.

USPTO already has at least a dozen other patents for PMM's that require no input power and run continuously (at least that is what they claim).

Why complicate something that works with fancy trajectories.  Shaun stated that the trajectory results in a velocity hit on the way in and a plus on the way out - and the plus out is larger than the hit in.  Then you have to balance it, yada yada yada...

With a shield (properly called a "shunt") you get a plus on the way in AND on the way out.

The only thing unique about the LEMA is the method in wich the shield is allowed to move - i.e. on a rail (linear bearing) .  There must be at least 20 other ways to do this without the rail.

Software?!?!? Never held a magnet?!?!?  I'm waisting my time....
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 08:24:24 PM
Cache,

I'm trying to defend Steorn simply because (not accusing YOU of being this way) so many people have bashed and attacked them recently in a ruthless sort of way. I can understand honest but open minded skepticism. That's a good thing. But downright closed minded, hateful, and spiteful slander is quite something else. I'm sick of it.

Your right in one thing. We can try to both replicate the technology with the LEMA design and some of us can try with just permanent magnets. And your right, if either one gets built and becomes truly over-unity the goal has been accomplished.

However, what I'm hoping is that we can build a device where we don't have to use batteries or electrical means to move some shield around. People will then jump up and attack us by saying that we are using more energy moving the shield than what we are getting. Even if some of us use shielding in our attempts I hope we can build something where you place the magnets and shields in certain positions and the device starts to work.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 08:28:31 PM
Jack Frost,

Please don't leave us. We need all of our minds working together on this.

Are you trying to say that by having a gain in one part of the rotation and a loss in the other that it means the LEMA is not being utilized, because the LEMA would allow for just one spot that always gives accleration? That makes perfect sense to me. Actually, I hope this is true because it means we might not need some type of mechanical moving stator. Is this what you are trying to say Jack Frost?

By the way, I have held a magnet. But never a neomydium magnet. I am trying to think of various magnetic configurations in my mind, but I'm just trying to get an idea of the kind of force these much more powerful magnets produce.

I'll admit I'm not an engineer, scientists, or even self-educated expert in this. I'm a novice, but I'm facinated, curious, and willing to learn.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 26, 2006, 09:25:38 PM
You dont need electricity to power the LEMA..

here's a concept I was thinking of... easy to build probably, but I think there may be a flaw, (the magnet that comes out the bottom of the LEMA would still exert a force, maybe there should be 2 rotors... here's a starting idea... sorry for the crappy drawing.

everything you see is gear driven... the movement of hte shield is controlled by the gears..

consists of 5 gears, a rotating arm(or plate), and a crank shaft, 4 LEMA, and 1 additional magnet on the plate.

the only NON gear part (other than the magnets/LEMAs)  here is the long verticle rectangle (thats the crank shaft)
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/138/awh9.jpg)

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 26, 2006, 09:58:24 PM
sorry for double post...

as a followup... all gears would need to be of equal size, or timing would be wrong, as such the scale of my drawing is off...
(the bottom gear that drives the LEMA gears would need to be the same size as the lema gears)
hopefully its at least somewhat clear enough for someone to get an idea..

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 26, 2006, 11:18:49 PM
I think steorn is full of it- the LEMA is his core technology, his patent is all over the net and he is trying to confuse people. He isn't smart enough to make a complicated patent so he patents the core technology, he regrets his actions because everyone and there dog is going to build one-not buy one. So he starts spreading dis-information to confuse people which from reading this web page he seems to have done. I think the steorn Quest site has it bang on- only the actuator on the motor should have 3 magnets,the shield covering 2 of them at a time. So one magnet is exposed alternately on the ends of the actuator, so why not have 2 rotors-each rotor interacting with the end magnet being exposed then covered.Then the shield balances on the three actuator magnets=small input, the rotor has a large force because the rotor magnet approaching the non-covered magnet has a greater pull force than the other rotor magnet attracted to the closed shield but moving away from it. And why use a solenoid? If this apparatus produces more power than is used to move the shield then you put a cam on the rotor to move the shield at the right time,which is way more efficient and easier to build.As well, someone mentioned a linear track-the steorn patent shows one and this verifies there limited engineering ability,this is a useless idea- how many machines do you know of that use a linear track? exactly my point, they are good for slow heavy machinery nothing else. Im going to build the better motor I explained and I will let you know what happens.
best of luck
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 11:31:59 PM
Alright. It seems we have two camps. One camp that believes the LEMA is the key to their over-unity device and another that does not believe it's the key to making their device work. Basically, we have the LEMA camp, another group who thinks the timing of bringing magnets closer and then apart, and others who think it's just a configuration of permanent magnets.

Of course everyone should be free to try and replicate whatever they want.

All I'm hoping for is that one of these methods will work, create overunity, and the world will unlimited clean abundant energy.

However, let me ask you this. In the LEMA setup at www.steornquest.com would the shielding of the actuator eventually become magnetized and useless? I know that ferramagnetic materials can become magnetized if exposed to a magnetic field for long enough. Are there any materials that could be used that would not become magnetized and lose their effectiveness?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 26, 2006, 11:33:31 PM
To the best of my understanding, no

the whole point of the shielding would be defeated at that point ;)

The idea is that it can interfere with the magnetic fields by becoming magnetized easily in the proximity, but it does not take permanent magnetization... unless someone more qualified can correct me?

that said, I don't think that a solenoid method needs to be used as on steornquests' design... I think the shielding can be done purely mechanically... thus avoiding the whole issue of having to plug in your free energy machine :P ( A more impressive machine should run with no wires)
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 11:43:39 PM
Kent,

If the Steorn overunity devices uses the LEMA (saying maybe because Sean McCarthy denies it) then I hope that a mechanical way of moving the shield can be found.

However, I would like to know if such a shield would lose it's effectiveness after a period of time. I have heard that Neomydium magnets can keep their strength for a long period of time (thousands of years) but how long would various materials for the LEMA remain functional and un-magnetized?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 26, 2006, 11:53:23 PM
Nostradom,

Yes, that is what he said. But if no LEMA device is being used and only permanent magnets then that arrangment is just not going to work, because it's obviously been tried before. The problem is that in such a configuration you can indeed create a force to move the rotor/wheel forward. But then at some point when the magnet attached to the rotor comes back around the whole thing stops. This is due to a sticky point.

Basically, there are two possibilities. Either the LEMA is used for OU or some special configuration of magnets that allows the rotor to get by the sticky point. It's one or the other.

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 26, 2006, 11:54:08 PM
Vorlon,
Don't quote me on it :P but afaik the shielding will last a long time,  if it didn't, then the shield wouldnt be a shield.  


Nostradamus:
That diagram is a good way to show the sticky point people talk about... My belief is that steorn uses the LEMA to allow momentum to carry the magnet past that point.. (block magnetic fields so that it can get past that point where its moving opposing to the field lines), then open the shield once movement is again in line with the magnetic field lines.

The diagram I showed earlier, follows the same principal, using lemas, and 1 magnet, the 4 gears control the LEMA similarly to the solenoid shown, timed such that only 1 is 'open' fully at any point in time, the other lema's open and close as the magnet moves around..

Not sure if i'm totally off base though may have to build it at some point..

The lema itself wouldnt be too hard to build.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 26, 2006, 11:56:05 PM
Kent I think if the shield never leaves the magnetic field of the actuator it does not matter if it is magnetized. The shield rediects the field it does not block it. If the shield becomes magnetized you flip the magnetic array every 20 minutes, put the magnets on a spindle or shaft-problem solved.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 26, 2006, 11:58:32 PM
allcanadian, it redirects the field such that they direct back towards itself i believe... so afaik there should be no need to rotate anything... shielding is stypically used in stationary objects to stop a permanent magnet (such as for stereo / sound equipment) from interfering with other electronic parts...
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 12:01:28 AM
yes the shield is "c" shaped in the patent,the north pole lets say enters the inner portion of the C and exits to the south pole through the legs of the "c' shield.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 12:03:55 AM
BTW I don't think the design on steornquest is quite right...

If you rotated the solenoid so it was perpendicular to the rotor , it would probably be better off...

As it is, the magnetic field will still exit from the bottom magnet when the shield is in the 'off' position... the only way that I see is to move down rather than back..

This will even still have a magnetic attraction against the rotor, which is why I had  4 LEMA's in my design, in order to provide a more direct attraction towards the next quarter rotation.

*EDITED* 4 LEMAs
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 27, 2006, 12:07:16 AM
Hmm... I am going to re-read the patent. If we are not talking about magnetic shielding but just re-directing the flux then cound't another permanent magnet be positioned somewhere near the stator magnets to allow for the same effect?

I'm just trying to work out something in my mind that allows for the concept of the LEMA (redirecting the flux) to mesh with Sean's statements that the overunity technology has nothing to do with the LEMA.

Of course, even if they have advanced beyond the LEMA and are using another setup with only permanent magnets it would still be a good idea to build and test the LEMA ourselves.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 12:10:56 AM
I actually tried the actuator setup, three neo magnets 1" round -1/2 " apart on 4" x 2" metal strip-"C" shaped shield over the center magnet-shield attached to wood disc on ball bearings. So Im not making this up, when the magnets are all north or south face up and the right distance apart the shield moves from one magnet to the other with very little force, if however you try to move the shield away from the magnets there is a strong attractive force. that is the secret just as wesly gary said 50years ago, do not remove the switching element from the magnetic field.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 12:13:50 AM
basically.. from what I gather...

the magnetic attraction is stronger the further you move from a magnet... this is due to the flux (the amount of field lines travelling through a surface),  

By adding the 'balancing' magnet, the shield can be moved without altering the flux
no matter where the shield moves, the amount of covered magnetic material averages out to being 1 magnet)..  Thus the only force to move the shield, is due to the friction on the rails, gravity.  The friction is probably still pretty high, as the attractive force between 1 magnet and the shield ( the force its attracted to the shield at ANY position ) is normal to the movement...  but its better than just moving directly away from the magnet... ( like your sliding a magnet on the fridge analogy)
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 12:16:54 AM
great to know allcanadian.. thats reassuring..

This might actually work then, ill have to see if i can get some magnets....

the problem still exists that the bottom magnet ( when the shield is in the 'off' position ) will still exert a force on the other magnets on the rotor...

another magnet needs to exist (from what I can see) to overcome this... I came up with 4 magnets on the outside each at 90degrees of the rotors rotation... I'm not sure if thats ideal or not..
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 12:29:13 AM
Maybe I can explain the setup better, let's say the actuator is laying horizontally, three magnets on a metal plate on a table. The shield is "C" shaped-free to move along the magnets on a rail or arrange the magnets in an arc so the shield can move over the magnets in an arc, because the shield is mounted to a thin disk.If you mounted a rotor with magnets on it over one of the end magnets of the actuator. then as the shield is moved the end magnet under the rotor is covered then uncovered moving the rotor. the question is you are still only using half of the actuator. what about the other end magnet not used? there are 3 magnets in the actuator why not use both end magnets that are covered then uncovered? so you use 2 rotors,one over each end magnet, the magnets on the rotor are offset so as the shield is moved back and forth one magnet on the rotor is always being attracted. the middle magnet just sits there and balances the forces on the shield so it moves easily.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 12:40:55 AM
Here is another twist on this,why use a rotor at all? If in fact the shield can be moved back and forth with very little effort,which I have verified it does. Then why not mount a "C" shaped coil around both end magnets. When the end magnet is covered it's field does not enter the "C" shaped coil,when the shield is moved the magnet is uncovered and the field enters the "C" coil.One of the coils on one end charges a capacitor that switches a solenoid that moves the shield, the other coil you pull power off of for use elsewhere. Why bother with a motor/generator setup at all,if you just want electricity?
just a thought
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 12:46:45 AM
Interesting Idea, but its getting away from the steorn design.. and I think it may be worht looking into, however to stick to the thread topic,

I think that having 2 rotors could cause wierd field interraction 

I think our designs are similar though, (mine and the steornquest site), whereas mine uses 4 lema, with 1 magnet on the rotor, and steornquest uses 2 magnets on the rotor and 1 LEMA,

both should be easy to build, but sticking to steorn's description we shouldn't need a solenoid or any other electrical components..


Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 12:50:09 AM
I think if we're going to do this we should get a small list of design ideas and try them independently.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 27, 2006, 12:54:12 AM
I'm trying to understand exactly what the LEMA is doing. It would have been nice if the patents included a quick video or diagram of the rotor in relation to the magnets and shield of the LEMA.

Basically, we all know to get past the sticky spot in a magnetic motor you either have to do something not yet discovered (or discovered and suppressed) to get the rotor past that spot or you have to use some type of shielding. So the function of the shield to block one of the magnets is logical. However, what I don't understand is how this setup is creating the magnetic rail to slide so easily back and fourth. What is going on with that? Let me ask a few questions.

1) When used to power a rotor is the rail supposed to be bolted down or the the shield and base of the LEMA? What I'm trying to ask is what exactly moves and what stays still.

2) Everyone is saying the LEMA is used to balance magnets. That is a concept I don't yet have my mind around. What do you mean by balancing? Does this relate to making it easy (low energy) to move the shield and/or rail (which one moves by the way?) back and fourth?

3) Could someone post a simple diagram of how the LEMA would position itself next to a rotor?

---

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Perhaps Steorn has two major inventions. The LEMA and whatever technology they are using now that has nothing to do with the LEMA.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 01:00:53 AM
sure....

1. Really either part can move, the shield can move up, or the magnet can move down, 6 one half a dozen the other..

2. The idea of balancing magnets gets back to this 1 point.  The flux needs to remain constant, if the flux decreases then the magnetic attraction between the shield and the magnet become stronger, (The balancing is done like this) Imagine the shield in the off position, (Shield positioned to cover hte top magnet), now move it 1/4th to the 'on' position, the shield would cover 3/4's of one magnet and 1/4th the other, flux hasn't changed, shield moves smoothly.  This process can continue, imagine the shield covering half of each magnet, flux still hasn't changed, the shield can move easily)

The basic idea is that the lema allows you to do the effect of moving the magnet from 1 position to the other (its a seperate magnet, but the field strenght is equal) without the difficulty of overcoming magnetic attraction in the process...

3.  I'll try to draw something up for you very soon.

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:04:50 AM
I really do not care about steorns design, He "borrowed" it from someone else,that's how evolution and invention works. Im not sure your getting this at all,read steorns patent, if you actually read it- on page 8 section 0030 it reads as follows-
"The drive mechanism(not shown)for the shield is provided by an external force such as a solenoid,linear motor or the like"
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:07:21 AM
I have the patent right in front of me if you want to understand what he is doing?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 01:10:33 AM
I've read the patent as well, and I don't doubt that it has been developed before...

there's nothing specifically wrong with using a solenoid or linear motor, but there's also no reason it couldn't be driven mechanically, that I know of.. unless speed is paramount to the operation of the motor (I don't know I haven't built one)


Vorlorn, I can't seem to draw very well, so I also suggest looking at the patent...

what you need to look for is the fact that in any position of the actuator, the shield is going to cover the equivalent of 1 magnet.

I hope that makes sense, because that is the basic idea behind why its 'low energy',
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:16:20 AM
I think you have it explained pretty well kent, what I would like to know is does the actuators magnet field (1)repel another magnet (2) attract another magnet or (3) attract an aron core on a rotor?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:18:55 AM
I have the actuator built and it works,now the hard part anyone want to take a guess 1,2,3?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 01:19:52 AM
Depends on what you put on te other side of the actuator :P

In my design, it would attract another magnet...

if it was designed to repel another magnet, it'd simply spin the other way.. (but the shields would also have to work backwards to my design)



3rd option is not good IMO, you risk magnetising a piece of iron, and the thing would not work after a while..


The crux of the issue here is timing... when to turn on and off the shield... and how quickly must it be done?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 27, 2006, 01:22:34 AM
I'm basically understanding this partially a little better now. So since the shield only covers one magnet the that magnet's flux is not really blocked, but just re-directed since the three magnets together form one big field there is no attraction between the shield and the magnet it's covering?

Ok. I *think* that I understand that part. Please correct me if I'm incorrect or add anything that I should know.

Now, what I need to understand in my head is the pattern of moving the shield related to the magnets on a rotor. Could someone explain this concept to me? I'm re-reading the patents again as we speak.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 01:23:39 AM
IN follow up.. to my last post..

the way i imagined it..

For a repelling design..


immediately after the magnet passes the shield, the shield would open, forcing the rotor to spin, when the rotor is at around 179 degrees, the shield covers the magnet again


this could be accomplished with a cam...


for an attractive version its similar, at 181 degrees, the magnet opens, causing attraction, just before the magnet crosses the shield, it covers it again, allowing momentum to carry the rotor past..
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:25:10 AM
You have that right, the issue I have as well is if you have a magnet on the rotor then the rotor magnet has an effect the shield, will the rotor magnet pull on the shield, it would have to be at right angles to avoid drag. Im going to try magnets in attraction first, I don't like repulsion it weakens magnets,then soft iron plates on the rotor.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: JackFrost on October 27, 2006, 01:28:52 AM
I already stated that the shielded magnet will attract another magnet even if the poles are opposing.  But when you pull the shield off - wham! Just like that.

Here, try this:
Get a couple of identical magnets and a piece of steel large enough to cover the entire face plus enough to hang off the side so you can slide it off with your fingers.

Mark the "like" poles with a marker, and wave the like face past each other and you can fell the push before and after the faces are aligned.

Cover this pole face of one of the magnets with the steel.  If the steel is thick enough - the faces will now "attract" - don't get too excited - devices using that little feature date back to the 1800's.

Now cover half of the face of the one magnet and wave the other past it.  You feel a pull on the shield side, a flat spot in the middle, and a push at the uncovered side.

You will always have the flat spot in the middle unless you can shape the field to only go one-way.  Covering the face of fixed magnet allows the rotating magnets to face the opposing magnet without being pushed away.  Once the magnets are facing each other, the shield is moved to expose the face and the repulsive force pushes the rotating magnet away.

The tricky part is to find a way to time the shield and to move the shield with very little force.


A word about "trajectory" - if you bring the magnets close with the opposing faces at and angle that minimizes the opposing force and then rotate the on coming in or push it out at a different angle - you'll get what Shaun is talking about.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:28:19 AM
kent i just read your post- maybe I do like repusion? the rotor magnet would be attracted to the shield first,the shield opens, then repulsion.The attraction gives it the extra pull, but will the magnets weaken?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 01:32:32 AM
yeah I imagine the magnets would weaken,

I'm trying to draw up another design, using attraction.. but the only Idea I have would involve 4 magnets, all poles facing together at the center point of the rotor (this would also weaken the 4 magnets.. so i'm trying to come up with a 1 magnet attraction method)
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:40:32 AM
I just remembered I have done the experiment Jack is talking about-there is one problem with repulsion and shielding you can't get around.
- when the shield is leaving from between two magnets in repulsion-the attractive force is double when the shield is about half way out-hence you gain nothing.
- if the magnets are not perfectly centered with the shield one magnet will repel the other magnet through the shield.
I have done this many times and cannot come out ahead, but I think this "C" shaped shield and the steorn configuration might work. It's always about millimeters, everything has to balance perfectly.It's a bitch in every sense of the word.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 27, 2006, 01:42:42 AM
I have heard someone say that opposing magnets will keep their magnetisim without significantly weaking for thousands of years (at least about neodymium magnets). Is this true or not.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 01:46:39 AM
I'm not sure which one weakens the magnetic field, that should be determined :P IF you're looking for an attraction method, this may work.

There maybe some issues with my drawing regarding how harsh the cam should be.. but i'm bad with paint :P
its just a basic idea...
***EDIT***
The side view has an error, the LEMA w/ shield shown needs another magnet inside, (this is inline with the design on the patent, I just forgot to draw the other magnet)
TOP VIEW

(http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6277/1be9.jpg)



SIDE VIEW

(http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9812/2el7.jpg)

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:49:21 AM
Honestly I do not know, It's a 50/50 split from what I have read, some say yes ,some no. On the quantum mechanics end they say yes, the magnets will weaken, the domains get disoriented over time, I tend to believe this theory more than the others,my neo's are getting weaker the more I experiment. They are 1" round x 1/2" thick N40 and I can tell they are getting weaker in just 6 months of playing around.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: JackFrost on October 27, 2006, 01:53:05 AM
unshield when the rotating magnet is slightly passed the fixed magnet.

Pull shield perpendicular to rotation (not tangential) and the motor will run either direction

Helps to have fixed magnet larger than rotating magnets.

You must use opposing fields.

Demagnetization is a funstion of the distance between the magnets and the amount of demagnetizing force - all magnet mfg's (the large ones) give demag curves/data.  The shunt helps correct demagnetization - just like on the old horseshoe magnets.

Long magnets are more resistant to demag as are the rare-earth magnets.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 01:56:02 AM
yeah JackFrost and I are on the same page here... this is (IMO) much better than the method steornquest is going with...

I used a cam on my previous design ( page 8 ), but gear driven would work well here too..(easier to build), where the gear replacing the cam is the same size as the gear controlling the shield...

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 27, 2006, 01:56:09 AM
Alcanadian,

Would you tell me how much force (just a guess or explanation) your magnets give? I'm trying to get a handle on the strength of various sized magnets so I will no what to order. How far away will one of your magnets repel another? How far away will they attract? I just want to get a feel for the power of neomydium because I have never played with one before.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:58:40 AM
I guess if my 2 cents count for anything I would say try to stick with magnetic attraction. It's interesting steorn is quoted as saying the machine will not deteriorate over time and he is using magnets, so my best guess is saying that he is using magnets in attraction or I think iron cores on the rotor. He does not specify anywhere how he makes power only how he switches the magnetic fields - hence the LEMA patent.
As well I ran a machine in repulsion briefly and it seemed to get weaker fast, no measurements so im guessing here.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 01:59:18 AM
I guess if my 2 cents count for anything I would say try to stick with magnetic attraction. It's interesting steorn is quoted as saying the machine will not deteriorate over time and he is using magnets, so my best guess is saying that he is using magnets in attraction or I think iron cores on the rotor. He does not specify anywhere how he makes power only how he switches the magnetic fields - hence the LEMA patent.
As well I ran a machine in repulsion briefly and it seemed to get weaker fast, no measurements so im guessing here.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 02:02:24 AM
Magnets will repel or attract as a function of the square of hte distance they are seperated.. so the short answer is infinitely :P

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 02:03:39 AM
allcanadian, can you try to do something similar to the design on page 8?  I dont have any magnets..

A cam would be hard to construct quickly, but perhaps using 2 gears instead... 1 gear isntead of a cam, and the actuator tied to the wheel of another gear perpindecular to the cam
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: capeguy on October 27, 2006, 02:09:24 AM
@vorlon

is there any consensus on what the shielding material is?? iron, mumetal, plastic??

could it be another permanent magnet as the shield

----------------------------------------------
some really powerful PMs on on this page...
pull force of 640 lbs with a weight of 17.34 oz...

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BZX0Y08


# Dimensions: 4" x 2" x 1/2" thick
# Material: NdFeB, Grade N42
# Plating/Coating: Ni-Cu-Ni (Nickel)
# Magnetization Direction: Thru Thickness
# Weight: 17.34 oz. (491.7 g)
# Pull Force: 640.50 lbs
# Surface Field: 5120 Gauss
# Brmax: 13,200 Gauss
# BHmax: 42 MGOe
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 02:11:00 AM
My neo's have around 35 lbs pull each, attraction is felt at about 1 foot, repulsion the same.
All I can say is they are absolutely insane, you cannot pull 2 of them apart with your hands, big strong men have tried and none have done it. If they are loose and come together even an inch apart you will understand these are serious dangerous magnets. They are really cool you just have to be very careful. don't let children anywhere near them whatever you do.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: JackFrost on October 27, 2006, 02:11:02 AM
cheap neo magnets and holding cups:

leevalley.com

Look under "hardware"...

Cups shunt the opposite pole and make the magnets stronger - see this:
http://www.leevalley.com/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=54198

Can't use another magnet as a shield.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 02:15:00 AM
I think its pretty well accepted that they are using a mu-metal shield or something similar.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 02:27:22 AM
Sorry Kent im on my work network that filters all pictures, I am done work in a couple hours so I will take a look later-i got serious lag here too. As far as building something goes here's the deal- I just want to make something work-I post it on the net for everyone-I sell some to my friends and family and im happy. but after building 60 or so crude experimental machines I have come to the conclusion that it has to show serious potential and be well though out. I run it on vizimag then the sim, then build it right the first time,I think that is what is comes down to-a precision machine,not something thrown together.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 27, 2006, 02:30:06 AM
So Jack you have a working repusion motor then? Im not being sarcastic but you make it sound as if you have one.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 27, 2006, 05:35:00 AM
It's looking like with the LEMA it's not too hard to make an overunity device if you can create a device to use the motion of the rotor to move the shield of the LEMA at the exactly correct moments. For example, to me it's curious that Steorn has banned the link to the SteornQuest website. I in no way want to go so far as to say that Steorn is lying to us, but I think we at least know that at some point they were wanting to use the LEMA for overunity even if they have moved onto a method now that does not utilize it.

Anyone here building a simple rotor and putting a LEMA next to it? I would be interested if someone can describe how little effort it takes to move the shield manually to make the rotor move. If that takes very, very little effort the next step would be to build a mechanism to use the motion of the rotor itself to move the shield.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 27, 2006, 08:54:02 AM
repulsion or attraction? Do not worry that one method could drain the magnetic field.

If that was true the opposite would also have to be true. If repulsion could drain the magnetic field then attraction would have to conversely increase the magnetic field. Imagine the result, you could put a permanent magnet on your fridge and come back in a few days and find your fridge would now be one big magnet. Load up your fridge and haul it down to the Eiffel tower and stick it to the tower and in a week the Eiffel tower would start pulling cars off the steet. By the end of the month it would be pulling iron ore out of the ground in Maharashtra. By Christmas time they'd hang all of us guys for triggering this mess that sucked all of the ferromagnetic substances in the solar system into Paris.

Magnets don't work that way. The answer is "repulsion".
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 02:44:01 PM
It's looking like with the LEMA it's not too hard to make an overunity device if you can create a device to use the motion of the rotor to move the shield of the LEMA at the exactly correct moments. For example, to me it's curious that Steorn has banned the link to the SteornQuest website. I in no way want to go so far as to say that Steorn is lying to us, but I think we at least know that at some point they were wanting to use the LEMA for overunity even if they have moved onto a method now that does not utilize it.

Anyone here building a simple rotor and putting a LEMA next to it? I would be interested if someone can describe how little effort it takes to move the shield manually to make the rotor move. If that takes very, very little effort the next step would be to build a mechanism to use the motion of the rotor itself to move the shield.

I agree... The reason I suggested 4 LEMA with 1 on the rotor, is that the distance the rotor has to move towards the next LEMA is only 90degrees, this would increase teh attractive strenght at any lema that it would move towards. (or away from in a repulsive version), also, with 4 using repulsion you have the added benefit ( from what I' can see) that you don't have to use a solenoid or any other device to instantly close the shield... having 2 partially open will still be fine up until the rotor is at 180 degrees from the first LEMA, this allows the actuator to be less on and off, and more throttled,  using this concept, the easiest way to construct is to either use a cam to control the shields of 4 lema, or even simpler using gears perpindicular to the rotor a shield actuating rod. (basically a plastic arm attached to the bottom of the gear which then connects to a shield), the whole process then is quite simple from what I can see..

Kent
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 28, 2006, 06:20:33 AM
Has anyone here tried to replicate the LEMA itself yet and build a rotor to see if it's possible to use the LEMA by HAND (moving the shield back and fourth) to make the rotor rotate?

I think that is the first step. The second step would be going from that to having a device using some of the rotor's force to move the shield.

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 28, 2006, 09:02:25 AM
Hey - where did everybody go? Have we got a group of guys that have dates on a Friday, or a group of guys that are all trying to get from the theoretical to the practical stage?  :P

thevorlon, I finally got some co-netic & netic shielding today from http://www.magnetic-shield.com/products/lab-kit.html . I built my first rough LEMA and "tried it by hand". Well, this puppy is going to probably run faster than 600rpm. With two magnets on the rotor that's 1200 LEMA shuttles per minute. Can't tell much when I'm only moving about 30 shuttles per minute. But here's what I did find.

Even if you completely surround the magnet with shielding at least 20% of the field still gets through. The documentation sent by magnetic-shield.com confirms that. This means that a design will need to use repulsion instead of attraction. Here's why....

With attraction the actuator magnet has to be exposed while the rotor magnet approaches because that is when all of the work gets done. But, since magnetic fields dissipate their strength rapidly over distance, 20% is probably all that is going to be available through out the 1/4 arc that the rotor magnet is moving. Once the two magnets are facing each other you then shield the actuator. At that point you still have 20% attraction bleeding through. All you've done is attract the rotor magnet with a small portion of the magnetic force, and you're stuck at that point.

With repulsion the actuator magnet is shielded while the rotor magnet approaches. 20% of the repulsive force is bleeding through to act as a break on the rotational torque. But, when the two magnets are facing each other you remove the shield and 100% of the repulsive force now is applied to the rotational torque as acceleration. As the rotor magnet moves past the actuator the shield is closed - once again 20% bleeds through, but this time the rotor is past dead center so this bleed through accelerates, cancelling the earlier breaking effect.

Also, I think that the sheild has to move ONLY when the two magnets are dead center to each other, not before or after. Take a look at a motor using an electromagnetic actuator. The reed switch closes the circuit that energizes the electromagnet. You can adjust how long the reed switch is closed (and how long the electromagnet is energized) by moving the reed switch closer or further away from the magnet that is closing it.  If you increase the length of time, you decrease the speed of the motor. Maximum speed is achieved with the shortest pulse, not the longest. But, if you lengthen the pulse, and also adjust the position of the reed switch so it closes exactly at dead center and remains closed until the rotor magnet has cleared the circumference of the actuator magnet then you can slightly increase speed.

This observation is why I prefer using something like a reed switch to activate the shield shuttle on a LEMA. I don't see how yopu can get that kind of timing using gears or cams. I totally agree with your point that having an external power source involved just totally messes things up for demonstration purposes. But, I have a couple of ideas for doing that with power from the device itself. The device's rotating shaft is a good place to mount a second set of magnets within a coil producing a dynamo-type electric current.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that hearlds the most discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny,,,' " ISSAC ASIMOV (1920-1992)
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 28, 2006, 10:23:11 AM
Cache,

Let me see if I understand this, because I would love to try and build one of these LEMA's.

We will have magnet A and magnet B in this example. Both of of these are the magnets of the LEMA. The X will represent the rotor magnet.

Lets say the magnet sweeps in and passes what would be the sticky point of magnet B moving clockwise..

          X
        ___

   A     B

Obviously, you would want to move the shield out of the way quickly so that magnet B can give the rotor magnet "X" a push. The shield moves over magnet "A".

          X
___

  A      B

Then it's obvious the rotor magnet would move forward.

     X
___

A       B

My question to you is if you believe you could then move the shield BACK over magnet "B" fast enough to give the rotor magnet "X" an additional "push" of energy from magnet "A".

X
       ___
   
 A      B

Basically, I'm trying to figure out what movement of the shield of the LEMA is most efficent at producing the most repulsive energy and of course what is actually possible. Would it indeed be possible to move the shield back and fourth that fast?

Now, one other question.

You gave the figure 20% for the leakage of flux from the magnet. My question to you is about another figure. The design of the LEMA is supposed to allow the shield to move easily with low energy. What percentage of energy do you think moving the shielding of the LEMA takes compared to a typical conventional motion of moving a piece  of shielding away from the same magnet?

In my opinion, that has to be the key to the LEMA. Because otherwise anyone could have created a system to simply move a shield back and fourth infront of a magnet. The principle of the LEMA must be that it's VERY efficent at moving the shield.

Could you say how much enegy is saved in the LEMA setup?

By the way, thanks for the information and update!

Do they sell small samples of the shielding material for the general public (enough to build one or two LEMAs?


Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: gyulasun on October 28, 2006, 01:41:26 PM
Hi,

I have just seen a reference to a Russian magnet motor here on the Forum
( http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1621.msg16034.html#msg16034 )

and seeing the picture animation (I attached it below) it immediatly cries for perhaps the simplest and still a good mechanical solution to combine it with the LEMA.
I would replace the top magnet in the picture with the three magnets of the LEMA in an appropiate way and everything else can remain the same! 
For more shaft torque you can place several such arrangements next to each other on the same shaft.
I don't think any exotic shielding material would be needed: just the good old transformer laminations can be used, experimenting / testing for the correct thickness. Another material of interest is ferrit, but it is probably more expensive than lamination.  The mass of the rotor can also be of significance of course.

Regards
Gyula

   
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 28, 2006, 03:31:27 PM
..... I don't see how yopu can get that kind of timing using gears or cams.

Nonsense... Cams drive the timing of the internal parts of the motor on your CAR!

which run at RPMs up to  the 5000+ rpm range.

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: pinestone on October 28, 2006, 03:57:58 PM
...But, I have a couple of ideas for doing that with power from the device itself. The device's rotating shaft is a good place to mount a second set of magnets within a coil producing a dynamo-type electric current...

Could you incorporate the magnet(s) into a flywheel somehow?
Mount an inductive pickup near the circumference and use the induced pulse to compensate for the 20% that gets through the shielding.

Another coil (feed-forward) near the 'sticky' point could provide the inductive kick you require. see attachment
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 28, 2006, 07:16:03 PM
Gyulasun

Interesting design... at its current drawing it wont work as the force to remove the shield shown would be proportional to the magnets attracted to it...

But with Lema tech that could work... the rail sliding a magnet in and out of the 'piston', however when the lema pulls back you're still going to get fields leaving from the balancer magnet, which i think would greatly hinder performance...
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: pinestone on October 28, 2006, 08:14:59 PM
Gyulasun

Interesting design... at its current drawing it wont work as the force to remove the shield shown would be proportional to the magnets attracted to it...

But with Lema tech that could work... the rail sliding a magnet in and out of the 'piston', however when the lema pulls back you're still going to get fields leaving from the balancer magnet, which i think would greatly hinder performance...

I don't show the shields. I was just indicating how you could add a 'feed-forward kick coil' to your existing motor.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 28, 2006, 10:38:14 PM
was replying to gyulasun :P

still trying to wrap my head around yours :P
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: gyulasun on October 28, 2006, 11:14:09 PM
Gyulasun

Interesting design... at its current drawing it wont work as the force to remove the shield shown would be proportional to the magnets attracted to it...

But with Lema tech that could work... the rail sliding a magnet in and out of the 'piston', however when the lema pulls back you're still going to get fields leaving from the balancer magnet, which i think would greatly hinder performance...

Hi Kent767,

Yes I agree with your notice on the original design, though Anatoliy, the inventor, wrote here ( http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,880.msg5513.html#msg5513 ) that he has had some manufacturing secrets...   ???

Regarding the usage of LEMA in place of the upper magnet, I was thinking on putting 3  cylindrical magnets vertically in a line instead and the shield would never go beyond the middle and the right side magnets but would cover or uncover only the left side magnet (and the one on the right side but it would not matter much, being further away) and only this latter would be really positioned just above the piston and repel it down when in the uncovered state, the other two would be mounted further to the right (but the distances between the three magnets would be equal just like in the LEMA patent).

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 29, 2006, 02:25:21 AM
Ok. What is the cheapest set of materials needed to build a LEMA (close to Steorn specs) by itself without a rotor?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 29, 2006, 05:17:14 AM
Ok. What is the cheapest set of materials needed to build a LEMA (close to Steorn specs) by itself without a rotor?

Here's my schema:

1) Get two 1/2 in. disk magnets

2) Get one piece of plastic .10 in. thickness, 3/4 in. wide, 1 in. long, a second piece same thickness and width but 3 in. long. If necessary buy a small sheet of Lexan plastic at Home Depot and cut to size. The .10 should be the max. thichness, if you have some rigid plastic sheet that is thinner, use it. You really only need 3 or more molecules minimum thickness.

3) wax paper or thin card board

4) a 4in. X 1 ft. of Cat. # A276-4 magnetic shielding at http://www.lessemf.com/mag-shld.html. This is not the highest grade sheilding but it will do. It is a foil and you can cut it to size with scissors. The 1ft. costs 4.95 but shipping is 10.00. If you buy 2 ft. shipping is 20.00. There used to be a lot of places online that sold small quanities of foil but this is the only one I know of that is not "out of stock" right now. (Yeah, we aren't the only ones trying to build a PMM, and these guys think they've found Perpetual Money Machines).

5) a few drops of super glue.

First of all, aluminum, copper, tin, lead, and most plastics have the same permeability (1) as air - they can all be glued to a magnet with no effect on the magnetic field. So, glue one of magnets to the 1 in. sheet of plastic. Then glue the other magnet next to it with both of them having the same pole up. Notice that the plastic is wider than the magnets - center the magnets so 1/8 in. sticks out past the magnets on each side and the magnets are flush with the top and bottom edge of the plastic. Now, glue the other piece of plastic to the other side of the magnets. This is the 3 in. piece - center it so 1 in. is above and 1 in. is below You should now have a plastic-magnet-plastic sandwich, like so:

      -------
      xxx xxx
---------------

The purpose of the plastic sandwich. A magnetic sheild is highly magnetized when it is wrapped around a magnet. If the shield touches the magnet the surface tension between the two breaks down and they will share electrons in the surface molecular layer. This adds to the friction resistance in sliding the sheild. If you now wrap the shielding around the plastic this is avoided and the friction is metal shielding to plastic.

Wrap two thicknesses of a 1/2 in wide strip of wax paper around the assembly side to side so it envelops one of the magnets.

Now cut a 1/2 wide strip of the shielding foil. Wrap the foil strip over the wax paper. Make cornors crisply 90 degrees as you wrap. Wrap three layers - super glue the last layer to the previous layer.

Slide the shield and wax paper off the assembly - discard the wax paper, it's only purpose was to guarantee clearance. Slide the shield back over the assembly to cover one magnet.

The 1 in. "ears" sticking out of the assembly on the one piece of plastic can be used for mounting the assembly. Glue another piece of plastic, or popsickle stick, or what have you, to the shield to move it from one magnet to the other.

Notice that this design has a major difference with Steorn's patent application. We wrapped the shield around both poles of the magnet. Their drawing only covers 1 pole and the 2 sides of the magnet, but not the opposite pole. I'm sure that after working with shields for 3 plus years they knew better and the drawing was done as a decoy for people attempting to build Steorn devices. A shield is not an insulator, it does not deflect a field. Instead it absorbs and captures the field. In doing so the shield become a magnet too. What is unique about magnets is they always have two poles - there is no such thing as a mono-polar magnet (Fred Flinstone would have created a PMM is there was). The magnetic shield has to serve as a path of least resistance conducting the field from one pole to the other, it can not do that efficiently if the shield does not completely envelope the magnet from pole to pole.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 29, 2006, 05:23:15 AM
Nonsense... Cams drive the timing of the internal parts of the motor on your CAR!

Thanks for the sarcastic response Kent. It worked! It made me look at the problem from right to left for the first time, and from that perspective, you're right! I'm going with cams.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 29, 2006, 06:54:08 AM
This sounds great. We have a plan for a functioning LEMA and we are thinking about a cam to use some of the power from the rotor to move the shield. You know what? If we keep on working on this together we could have a working PMM before long!

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 29, 2006, 07:48:32 AM
Cache,

X
       ___
   
 A      B
I think you're right, the balancing A magnet could give an extra boost at that point. But, remember that X will be moving in an arc and will have moved away fom that plane so the boost may not be much. Also, Steorn claims they are getting 250+ percent efficiency. That's 250% of the external power they use to actuate the LEMA. If we were trying to design the device that will put Con Edison out of buiness that extra boost may be really valuable. But at this point were just trying to get to that "It Works!!" momemt so I don't know if a lot of the things we worry about - extra boost, friction, precision timing, etc are that important. There seems to be an abundance of energy available once the relationships of parts is made.

I believe you and I have the same idea. We're looking for a design that validates the concept, continuing to run and produce some demonstrable excess work. Something people can build from instructions, even if we have to provide some basic milled parts. Now that the world knows about Steorn's claims it will be hard for university department heads to deny it works if every highschool science fair has one. So, simple is better. That's the main reason why I've changed over to a cam design (even though electronic ignition does work better than the old cam/gear driven rotor). That high school kid has got to be able to explain it.


My fear is that the jury thing will backfire. That it will be a hung jury, or that the jury will affirm it and unleash a scientific fundamentalist backlash. There are "scientists" who still don't believe in evolution or global warming for religious and political reasons. Worse, it's almost impossible to get a scientist to admit that Newton had to invent a supernatural force called "gravity" to explain why things fall down with no ideas about how gravity even works (or why it travels faster than light).


In my opinion, that has to be the key to the LEMA. Because otherwise anyone could have created a system to simply move a shield back and fourth infront of a magnet. The principle of the LEMA must be that it's VERY efficent at moving the shield.

I agree. The boys at Steorn did not have more than one discovery that produced over-unity. They discovered this by chance and mathematically they could not have had two unique discoveries at one instance. So I've assumed from the beginning that the key is in finding the one thing they did that was unique. I haven't even considered how much lower the Low Energy Magnetic Actuator is compared to the High Energy Magnetic Actuator or even the Medium Energy Magnetic Actuator.   I just assume it is lower than not using it, since there are dozens of proposals for sheilding PMM that have failed that didn't use it. And since the guys who did use it claim their PMM works enough to put their money where their mouth is, I assume it was low enough.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 29, 2006, 09:42:34 AM
Cache,

First of all, I think we need to test the LEMA because if it's truly over-unity that is amazing all by itself. If we can get an over-unity magnet motor then suddenly it's then possible to have one. The truth will be out that magnets are indeed gushing out energy from the vacumm (in this case at least part of is their magnetic field) that is just waiting for us to tap into. If we can prove the LEMA technology is indeed over-unity then tons of other permanent magnet motors will follow.

But at the same time I don't want to think that this is Steorn's only technology or discovery. I know your sick of me defending them, but they have specifically said repeatedly that the LEMA has nothing to do with their *current* over-unity device and their current device does not use shielding. Without going over all their statements they have basically told us their current technology only involves permanent magnets in special configurations using specific trajectories that may not be simple circles. In one part of the cycle energy is gained and in the other it's lost. Also, if you move the rotor backwards for a whole cycle energy is lost, but if you move it forward it's gained.

To be honest, their explanation of their technology with permanent magnets does not sound like the LEMA. The LEMA would not need any special configuration of permanent magnets, would not lose energy by going the opposite direction (because you could spin the LEMA in either direction and make it work), and does not lose energy in any part of the cycle because there is only one part of the cycle at the LEMA where energy is given.

Now, I'm excited about the LEMA because quite frankly it's something that's pretty simple to understand and it's something we have details about. But at the same time I'm still curious about the other technology they might have.

I'm not trying to be stubborn here. I'm just don't like the idea that they are lying to us and hope that they are telling the truth.

Anyway, back to the LEMA.

What is the simplest CAM design you can think of to move the LEMA back and fourth? In my opinion, we need to move it back and fourth to get the MAXIMUM ammount of propulsion from both magnets. You see, we need it to have enough power to spin, keep spinning, and turn the CAM to move the shield. The more efficent we can make the device the more likely it's to work.

If we can get one simple self-running LEMA based permanent magnet motor working then it's going to stun the world.

Honestly, I don't think scientists would be able to criticise it for too long. For example, at worst I think some of Steorn's jury members will probably drag it on and on rather than admit to positive results. But in the end if you have a permanent magnet motor running for weeks on end right infront of you that's totally self powered it's kinda hard to deny reality.

Also, it's going to make it harder for them if we can get Steorn's technology self-running. Of course the LEMA might not be Steorn's only technology, but just the fact any PMM is running and being replicated by thousands of people would certainly encourage them to admit the truth that it's real.

What we really need is a plan that anyone could follow to build the simplest LEMA based PMM possible.

What we need to do obviously get one working first. But then we need to be able to list specific part numbers from various companies down to the very last screw, magnet, gear, shielding material, and bottle of glue. Then we need precise step by step instructions.

This must be so simple that an amateur (like myself) could build it.

If we can get to that point the replications will take off like wild fire!
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 29, 2006, 01:02:51 PM
What is the simplest CAM design you can think of to move the LEMA back and fourth? In my opinion, we need to move it back and fourth to get the MAXIMUM ammount of propulsion from both magnets. You see, we need it to have enough power to spin, keep spinning, and turn the CAM to move the shield. The more efficent we can make the device the more likely it's to work.

The CAM is used for timing and actuating the actuator (heh), so the setup of the LEMA / Rotor will determine that.


I'll draw up some examples.. but the important thing to note here, (IMO) we need the lema to actuate orthogonal to the rotor, any movement going side to side or back and forth will require more effort than moving up and down ( assuming the rotor is horizontal)


Also to Cache:
  Thats why we meet here so we can throw ideas around :)

BTW I'm not convinced this will be pulling energy from some imaginary source.  There is another claim by Steorn that I do find hard to swallow.  That all this occurs without the magnet degrading in strength.  I'm more curious hwo much we can get out of a magnet.  But we'll see :)
Kent
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: smarthousesys on October 29, 2006, 02:26:44 PM
The Russian magent motor reference is interesting. In the transaltion on that thread on March 22 there is the following

------------------
RECOMMENDATIONS ON MANUFACTURING

The practical effect of the magnetic field turned out to be quite an important feature in manufacturing. It was found that the shade must be sufficiently large so that less of its sides cross the magnetic field. (see Fig. 3). Best if it is on, that is, the one which covers the magnets. The form of the bounds is best to match the form of the magnet. My shade is rectangular.
I found a practical solution for overcoming the attracting force of the upper magnet field. It is necessary to increase the sirface area of the magnet so that the shade will always be in the magnetic field when it moves. The simplest is to place one more magnet in the path of shifting the shade, which I actually did in my model.
------------------------

This is obviously a reference to the same principle used by Steorn in the LEMA patent. Does it predate the issued patent?

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: gyulasun on October 29, 2006, 04:28:24 PM
...But, I have a couple of ideas for doing that with power from the device itself. The device's rotating shaft is a good place to mount a second set of magnets within a coil producing a dynamo-type electric current...

Could you incorporate the magnet(s) into a flywheel somehow?
Mount an inductive pickup near the circumference and use the induced pulse to compensate for the 20% that gets through the shielding.

Another coil (feed-forward) near the 'sticky' point could provide the inductive kick you require. see attachment

Hi Pinestone,

I think you show an interesting idea in your attachment, thank you. I am trying to digest it though but let's discuss it.  You placed the magnets on the flywheel with alternating poles but the diode is able to switch on and pass current by one specific pole only: when the opposite pole comes to induce, the diode is closed, isn't it?  Hence why for the need of 4 magnets?   Possibly I am missing something here, could you explain?   
I understand that the diode is also good for preventing current coming FROM the other (existing) motor, this seems a great idea.

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 29, 2006, 07:46:28 PM
The Russian magent motor reference is interesting. ... The simplest is to place one more magnet in the path of shifting the shade, which I actually did in my model.
------------------------
This is obviously a reference to the same principle used by Steorn in the LEMA patent. Does it predate the issued patent?

You are quite right smarthousesys, that describes the LEMA configuration and the reason for using it. Anatoliy's verifiable date of conception will determine whether that predates Steorn's date of conception. If it does it invalidate their patent. However, the dates on Anatoliy's website are Jan 2005. Steorn made their first discovery 3 years ago. If the LEMA effect was what the discovered back then, they probably have claim to priority.

What's important is that Anatoliy seems to validate the LEMA effect. What's discouraging is Anatoliy is not claiming his Nobel winning Eureka moment yet.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: cache on October 29, 2006, 09:01:01 PM
Clockwise rotation

(http://www.steornquest.com/thesite/discrotor.gif)

gotta go mulch leaves --- later...
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: smarthousesys on October 29, 2006, 09:20:09 PM
I really wonder if you can use a lema in any scheme that has magnets on the rotor. Basically the shielding takes effect blocks off the magnets in the lema and then the rotor magnets are simply attracted to the shielding and you are back where you started- sticky point.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 29, 2006, 09:44:02 PM
I urge all of you to read the following statements from Sean McCarthy on the Steorn forum. It directly relates to the LEMA.

It seems to me that he is trying to say that you could not get more energy out of a PMM using the LEMA than you would put in moving the shield back and fourth. Apparently, the repulsive magnet would come into play and cause a problem if I am understanding this correctly. 

Quote
Hi Folks,

I know that a lot of people have been asking if LEMA part of our OU technology and if not what is it and why did we design it?

The answer is no, it is not part of the OU technology. As previously stated we have developed several anti-counterfeit technologies in the past, these technologies where developed for a client FraudHalt (you can see a quick overview of the technologies at http://www.fraudhalt.com/demos/)

As you can see both of these technologies have a very heavy optics involvement. Anyone who works with optics will know that you typically build prototypes on an optical bench.

So? Well optical benches use magnetic clamps - these type of clamp are turned on and off by moving a shield in front of the clamping magnet. LEMA was a concept to help reduce the force that the person using the clamp has to apply in the camping/unclamping of these types of devices.

Thanks,

Sean


Hi bobcat,

Lets take an objective view of LEMA. It is in essence designed to reduce the force required to actuate a magnetic field (as noted above). However it is interesting to take an energy view of what is happening.

Assume the LEMA unit is standing upright. If you remove the top magnet and move the shield up and down (excluding friction) you will get a net zero energy balance. Why? Because the energy you put into moving the shield up will be regained when the shield is pulled back into its original position. Adding the second magnet does not change the net zero energy sum, just the level of forces (and hence energy) involved.

So in a friction free world you have the ability to create a machine with a LEMA type device that gives you a fluctuating magnetic field for no energy. So if LEMA can be used to develop an OU device then you need to be able to harness this field without substantially changing the net energy profile of LEMA.

Thanks,

Sean


Hi bobcat,

The key issue is what is the energy equation when you switch the shield in the presence of another magnetic field? The best thing to do would be to test this
(a force meter would be required). I think that you will find that the net energy equation for such a system will sum to zero.

Thanks,

Sean

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: gyulasun on October 29, 2006, 11:44:05 PM
I really wonder if you can use a lema in any scheme that has magnets on the rotor. Basically the shielding takes effect blocks off the magnets in the lema and then the rotor magnets are simply attracted to the shielding and you are back where you started- sticky point.

Hi,

Basically you are right BUT by carefully selecting the thickness of the shield, the distances between the shield and both the rotor / stator magnets you can get a setup where the following should happen: as the rotor magnet approaches the shield there will be a small attraction force between them (the thickness of the shield can be a bit higher at the entering side than at the leaving side for instance this is one trick) and the attraction force diminishes to nearly neutral when the rotor magnet is facing the still just covered stator magnet.

I included my drawing on how I think to use the LEMA concept in a permanent magnet motor.
I prefer using longer magnets of either cylindrical or rectangular shape (the length is chosen to minimize the effect of the opposite poles).
The position of the arms operating the shields is shown just before the moment the shields are about to move: the upper shield will be shifted to the left, the lower shield will be shifted to the right when the arms are activated by the rotor.  Several refinements are still needed.  AND much experimenting with the thickness/shape of the shield is also needed.
I will try to build such a setup I drew in the next couple of weeks as my free time lets it.

Comments are welcome.

Regards
Gyula
     
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: pinestone on October 30, 2006, 03:21:08 AM
[\quote] Gyulasun       ...Hence why for the need of 4 magnets?   Possibly I am missing something here, could you explain?[/quote]

Thanks for pointing that out.

OK I'll elaborate a bit:

You can use the magnets in what ever configuration you require.
I don't know how your motor is built. I was just trying to show a method of 'kicking past' the 'sticky spot' where opposing polarities meet.

If you need an N pulse, then the flywheel magnet should be north polarity at the point at which it passes the pickup coil. If you need a S pulse, just flip it around.

You may need to reverse the polarity on the diode, too for your individual application.

It wasn't ment to be an exact diagram, but only a mechanical/electrical concept drawing.

I haven't had the time to read the entire thread, but I did notice you folks talking about getting 'stuck'.

∞

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 30, 2006, 03:54:28 AM
I really wonder if you can use a lema in any scheme that has magnets on the rotor. Basically the shielding takes effect blocks off the magnets in the lema and then the rotor magnets are simply attracted to the shielding and you are back where you started- sticky point.

That is what I think Sean McCarthy is trying to say in the following posts. He seems to think that there would not be an energy gain at all.

Quote
Hi Folks,

I know that a lot of people have been asking if LEMA part of our OU technology and if not what is it and why did we design it?

The answer is no, it is not part of the OU technology. As previously stated we have developed several anti-counterfeit technologies in the past, these technologies where developed for a client FraudHalt (you can see a quick overview of the technologies at http://www.fraudhalt.com/demos/)

As you can see both of these technologies have a very heavy optics involvement. Anyone who works with optics will know that you typically build prototypes on an optical bench.

So? Well optical benches use magnetic clamps - these type of clamp are turned on and off by moving a shield in front of the clamping magnet. LEMA was a concept to help reduce the force that the person using the clamp has to apply in the camping/unclamping of these types of devices.

Thanks,

Sean


Hi bobcat,

Lets take an objective view of LEMA. It is in essence designed to reduce the force required to actuate a magnetic field (as noted above). However it is interesting to take an energy view of what is happening.

Assume the LEMA unit is standing upright. If you remove the top magnet and move the shield up and down (excluding friction) you will get a net zero energy balance. Why? Because the energy you put into moving the shield up will be regained when the shield is pulled back into its original position. Adding the second magnet does not change the net zero energy sum, just the level of forces (and hence energy) involved.

So in a friction free world you have the ability to create a machine with a LEMA type device that gives you a fluctuating magnetic field for no energy. So if LEMA can be used to develop an OU device then you need to be able to harness this field without substantially changing the net energy profile of LEMA.

Thanks,

Sean


Hi bobcat,

The key issue is what is the energy equation when you switch the shield in the presence of another magnetic field? The best thing to do would be to test this
(a force meter would be required). I think that you will find that the net energy equation for such a system will sum to zero.

Thanks,

Sean
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Kent767 on October 30, 2006, 05:41:22 PM
i've read that message vorlorn, but the issue is, without a LEMA, there's nothing else to seperate an attempt at creating a stoern deice from any other number of failed permanent magnet machines here on this forum...

THere's no use in replicating it if there's not something to distinguish it... not saying that they are using LEMA, but if we dont have that, then we dont have anything, just someone claiming that they've gotten it to work..

Kent
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: gyulasun on October 30, 2006, 05:59:15 PM
Hi,

@Thevorlorn, I agree with Kent, and may I add that there is no use pondering on whether Seorn uses LEMA or not, or whatever they say on that.
Don't forget that allcanadian already experienced in practice that the shield can be moved using very little force so this the first crucial fact we can base on.
Steorn probably uses indeed another tecnology that does not include LEMA and it is even more revolutionary,,,  we shall hopefully learn sooner or later.
All we can do now is continue tinkering and discussing the experiences.

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 30, 2006, 06:11:07 PM
If you do replicate the LEMA I hope that it does indeed allow for an overunity device despite Sean McCarthy's claims. I honestly would like to see an attempt.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: JackFrost on October 30, 2006, 06:21:43 PM
As I mentioned before, Steorn did not claim that the LEMA was not part of the OU device until recently.  Also, in Sean's posts from this same time period, he stated that they felt they would have a lot of competition.

IF the device used a special trajectory - they could patent the trajectory path (shape), but they applied for a patnet on the LEMA.

BTW - The device does not have to be "radial" - it can be "axial" and still work.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: thevorlon on October 31, 2006, 03:49:13 AM
Sean McCarthy of Steorn has posted several comments about the LEMA on the Fizzx Steorn Replication Forums at the following address...

http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?t=34

I feel very torn here. In one sense he is saying that the LEMA provides almost free magnetic switching, but then he doubts it could be used in a PMM due to the balance of the LEMA's magnetic fields being changed by the rotor magnet.

However, then he mentions that the LEMA might be used to (possibly) to induce a current in a wire.

He explains his statements much better than I am, so please check out.

http://fizzx.com/viewtopic.php?t=34

Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 31, 2006, 11:41:27 AM
Hello again excellent links!
Did you read the part about energy balance? that is the big hurdle I think, Have you heard of the wesley Gary magnetic motor and generator, it is near the same thing. I built all of wesley gary's machines and they show big potential but it is always the same thing, the balancing of magnetic fields(magnetic strength vs distance vs magnetic shield size/thinkness.....)there is nothing simple about these simple machines.
When steorn mentioned that the shield would interact with any magnet on a rotor he was right, it's pretty much a given. But as I mentioned in an earlier post if the rotor had iron cores on it, it would then interact with the actuator magnets but be partialy neutral as far as influencing the shield. In fact im not sure that flat iron pieces on the rotor would have any influence on the shield.That's the direction Im going- 1 three magnet actuator (LEMA) I know works, two rotors with 1" square metal pieces around each rotor the spacing equal to the length of the actuator plus 1", and a cam setup to move the actuator, that was a sweet cam setup posted by the way.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: JackFrost on October 31, 2006, 02:28:15 PM
@allcanadian,

You might take a look at the work of Alan Francoeur (aka Al Francoeur).  Last I heard he had recreated Wesley Grey's motor, invented an "interference disk generator", invented a fuel vaporizer, and finally invented a self-running motor.  He made a goodbye post and then "poof"...
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: allcanadian on October 31, 2006, 04:02:23 PM
I had looked at everything Alan Francoeur had on the net and liked his designs very much, I think his interference generator was "off" though, his shield elements were thin and the flux went through them instead of being redirected. As well his design still did not allow for backdrag- or magnetism induced in his coils pulling back on his shield elements. I was sure he would be one of the persons to nail a concrete design and put it on the net,I wonder what happened? maybe he took a lump sum settlement and left us out here in the cold, and it is cold here!
Anyways hopefully I can get some time to do more actual experiments and post them here. As I said I think iron cores on rotors with the LEMA might fly,that is my next step and really the only thing that will not create backdrag between the shield and rotor.If that does not fly my next guess is magnets on the rotor in repulsion. Im doing alot of guessing as usual, maybe I'll get lucky?
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Craigy on November 22, 2006, 01:49:15 AM
Hi all,

I have been playing with the Torbay, with limited success, but i am thinking of adding shields to it after reading all about the steorn stuff. I have a couple of linear bearings on order to try and copy the patent.,

i'm gonna make the bloody thing work if it kills me..LOL

Craig
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Craigy on July 16, 2009, 10:59:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME6dnwtbBE4

I replicated this a long time ago ,thought i would post this vid here as it shows it working nicely..
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Xaero_Vincent on July 16, 2009, 11:40:56 PM
I can't say that I'm impressed by the video.

"Hand-powered" magnet motors are guaranteed to work unless the energy in the hand/arm cannot surmount the magnetic forces (in which case I recommend eating more protein). The design can be much more simplified since permanent magnet motors don't really need magnets, only a hand.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Craigy on July 16, 2009, 11:50:16 PM
You have totally missed the point. Its about the lema from steorn not my attempt at getting a rotor to spin.
Title: Re: The Steorn Permanent Magnet Motor Replication Project: It's FLUX time.
Post by: Xaero_Vincent on July 17, 2009, 12:49:19 AM
I see.

Well from the video it appears to be an actuating stator for a magnet rotor. I've already tried such a design. The energy required to move the stator is greater than what you get from the spinning of the rotor.

The Steorn project has been debunked by scientists.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0624/1224249416758.html

Spending any time on any aspect of this motor is akin to trying to replicate Mylow's motor after it was proven a fraudulent.

Just my 2 cents.