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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: CLaNZeR on October 22, 2006, 02:16:08 PM

Title: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 22, 2006, 02:16:08 PM
Has anyone tried the design below as it reckons the steel bar will get pass the sticky point.
I cannot see this myself.

(http://www.cncdudez.com/stickypoint.jpg)

Regards

Sean.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: djancak on October 22, 2006, 06:44:21 PM
It seems like it is worth trying, at least. Anybody here have the tools needed to build the iron ramp?
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: Liberty on October 22, 2006, 06:58:09 PM
I would suggest that you consider the amount of eddy currents that will be present in the iron bar.  A laminated core built in sections with the core cut and separated by thin insulators might be helpful?  I would also be sure to include a thin insulator on the back end of the stator magnet so electric eddy currents won't conduct through the stator magnet. 

The stator magnet may have to be spaced away from the rotor to limit the repel field that is not shunted out.  This may limit motor torque power.  The shunt will have to cover over half of the stator magnet to get past the opposing repel field.  (I would guess).

Best wishes.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: FreeEnergy on October 22, 2006, 07:53:21 PM
hmmm reminds me of http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=751.0;attach=734

but yours looks more simple. thanks.

peace
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: thevorlon on October 22, 2006, 08:50:09 PM
I'm a newbie here, and learning. So please bare with me for a bit.

That motor in the picture at the start of this thread is very similiar to what I was considering in my mind except that in my imagination there was not an Iron magnetic ramp. Now, what would happen in such a device with the SAME magnet configuration, but NO Iron magnetic ram? What would be the result? It can't be that simple, because I believe there must be one of those "sticky" points that would be a big problem in such a setup.

Could someone please explain this to me?
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 22, 2006, 09:30:00 PM
Hi TheVorlen

I am new to this myself and only stocked up with magnets and started milling out different size wheels a few weeks ago.
I have been interested in the theory of it all for years but have at last decided that the only way to understand the problems and stumbling blocks is to do the Practical.

You will soon discover as soon as you start playing that it does not matter what configuration you choose you always hit this sticky point where the force of the magnet stops the wheel in its tracks.
You can configure the magnets at different angles and see the power/torque increase but at the same time so does the force of the sticky point when hit!.

It simple enough to get around all these sticky points if you want to introduce an electrical magnet as with a little bit of timing, just simply switching this on and off at the precise moment will indeed get over the sticky point, but that defeats the idea of using just permanent magnets.
This is the same as simply holding a magnet and moving it backwards when the sticky point. The wheels I have played with spin so fast that my human reactions cannot move the magnet out of the way in time!!!
Physics tell you, that you will use up more force than created by using a mechanical way of moving the magnet back and forth fromt he sticky point, so I have not gone down that road yet, I mean yet!
 
My conclusion so far is that it is not the design of the wheel that is a mystery, you can set up magnets in pretty well any configuration to get the effect of movement but eventually ya gonna hit that sticky point.
 
So my quest at the moment is how to get past this sticky point and I like the idea of the thread using a 180hz pulse to cancel out the magnet as this will take not alot of power compared to using a electrical magnet, will get around to knocking up a circuit when time allows.
I think there has to be a lot of materials out there that have not been tested regards magnetic shielding ( Or magnetic Divert), so this is an area that I am heading down at the moment.

To me it is a bit of fun and I do not look at it in a commercial gain way as others, but if it can be cracked then what a gift to this world that needs it more than ever at the moment.

Have fun and these forums are a great source of info. The outside world will think you are mad, but within these forum walls you will be the norm LOL

Regards

Sean.

I'm a newbie here, and learning. So please bare with me for a bit.

That motor in the picture at the start of this thread is very similiar to what I was considering in my mind except that in my imagination there was not an Iron magnetic ramp. Now, what would happen in such a device with the SAME magnet configuration, but NO Iron magnetic ram? What would be the result? It can't be that simple, because I believe there must be one of those "sticky" points that would be a big problem in such a setup.

Could someone please explain this to me?
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: thevorlon on October 22, 2006, 09:36:03 PM
Clanzer,

Thanks so much for your reply!

I think I am understanding the concept of what a sticky point is (literally a point where the magnets themselves cause the wheel to stop) but not the CAUSE or REASON sticky points do what they do.

For example, take the image in the start of this thread. If you removed the iron bar and just left the magnet on the stator and the magnet on the rotor would there be a sticky point? If so, where? What would be causing it?

The problem probably is that I have not expeirmented yet, but in my mind in the above setup there should be no sticky point. Both magnets should repel each other, cause the wheel to move, and in a complete setup the wheel would accelerate.

I'm just not understanding the sticky point in this device.

Also, could explain to me exactly what is a magnetic flux gate?
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: FreeEnergy on October 22, 2006, 09:46:32 PM
The outside world will think you are mad, but within these forum walls you will be the norm LOL

Amen my brother. lol
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: djancak on October 22, 2006, 10:00:30 PM
hmmm reminds me of http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=751.0;attach=734

but yours looks more simple. thanks.

peace

could you post the URL to the thread that you got this from please
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: FreeEnergy on October 22, 2006, 10:11:42 PM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,751.0.html
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 22, 2006, 10:15:28 PM
TheVorlen

Below is an example of one of my wheels cut out of Plexiglass.
I have a number of magnets in a 180 degree arc with each magnet moving in a little around the curve.
I should really counter balance it with a weight on the other half, but the bearing I am using is so loose it does not need it.
All the North Poles are facing outwards and the magnets are as close as I can get them
(http://www.cncdudez.com/arc1.jpg)

Next below I place a powerfull ring magnet towards it with North facing towards the north facing arc magnets.
It takes off with a lot of power and usually does 3 full rotaions before hitting the sticky point.
(http://www.cncdudez.com/arc2.jpg)

Below again you can see the approx sticky point, it is just before the beginning of the arc. The north against north repel is that great that it cannot get beyond it.

(http://www.cncdudez.com/arc3.jpg)

If I dip the magnet at this point and bring it back up just after the sticky point the wheel gains speed and power and flies at great speed.

Regards

Sean
 

Clanzer,

Thanks so much for your reply!

I think I am understanding the concept of what a sticky point is (literally a point where the magnets themselves cause the wheel to stop) but not the CAUSE or REASON sticky points do what they do.

For example, take the image in the start of this thread. If you removed the iron bar and just left the magnet on the stator and the magnet on the rotor would there be a sticky point? If so, where? What would be causing it?

The problem probably is that I have not expeirmented yet, but in my mind in the above setup there should be no sticky point. Both magnets should repel each other, cause the wheel to move, and in a complete setup the wheel would accelerate.

I'm just not understanding the sticky point in this device.

Also, could explain to me exactly what is a magnetic flux gate?
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 22, 2006, 10:26:47 PM
The outside world will think you are mad, but within these forum walls you will be the norm LOL

Amen my brother. lol

ROFL, when they start handing out the awards you got my vote mate!!!!

Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: Kator01 on October 22, 2006, 11:00:46 PM
Hello,

yes, it is clear, you initialize the rotation approaching from above with the ring-magnet. In this initializing situation you are not close enough that the opposing poles stop the rotation at this sticky point-coordinate.Then, if you have come down with the ringmagnet to a level of rest, with each full rotation of the three rotations it has to pass the sticky point. At first you hardly will notice it but it slows down a bit as it will do while passing this sticky point the second time, again slowing down and finally it has lost so much of the initial-energy it stops. See what I mean.
In the hamel-devices you find that there is a tumbling movement of the the conical cylinders. So you have to tilt the ringmagnet in an oscillatory manner. How much energy that costs in comparison of the spin-energy ? I don not know.

Kator

Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: thevorlon on October 22, 2006, 11:35:13 PM
Clanzer,

Thanks for the visuals. Let me see if I understand this and ask a couple questions.

If you move the ring magnet on the stator near the magnets on the rotor then the rotor will start moving, correct?

However, the rotor will only move far enough for the FIRST magnet on it to once again reach the RING magnet, and then it will stop moving, correct?

What happens if you put magnets *all* the way around the rotor? If it was one complete loop woundn't the rotor just keep spinning? Have you tried that before

Also, what happens when you have more than one magnet? Does that help or will it just create yet another "sticky point" that interferes and causes the rotor to stop?

Once again, thank you tremendously for your help. I sincerely appreciate it. I'm doing my best to try and understand what's happening here.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 22, 2006, 11:50:55 PM
As shown in the second picture as soon as you place the magnet in position, the wheel will take off and spin yes.
Because I am using strong magnets, the stator will spin atleast 3 full 360 degrees before hitting the sticky point, as Kator01 pointed out it slows down for each full revolution.

If you place the magnets in a closed loop 360 degrees all the way around, it does not seem to do alot.
As you can see the aluminium strip is a bit buckled as I had tried this and brought it around to a complete 100mm circle.
It does not do alot in this configuration without alot of hand movement.

In my experiments it seems you need the offset to get the motion.
So hence when you go for the 360 degree offset, you end up with the end of the spiral tucked up further into the center of the wheel and hence the sticky point seems to increase and reduces it to maybe 1 or 2 full revolutions.
By using the 180 degree arc you will maybe get 3-5 full revolutions before it stops.

I have placed a second wheel above the wheel with the arc, with magnets spaced evenly around and again it eventually stops.

I have tried many configurations from all angles and still the dreaded sticky point comes bacl to haunt you.

A side point to this, has anyone noticed that playing with strong magnets, after a few hours at a time seems to give you Sea Legs???
(Sea Legs is a effect that you get when you have been out on a boat all day and when you get off the boat to dry land, you stil feel like you are still rocking to the movement of the waves!!!)

Regards

Sean.


Clanzer,

Thanks for the visuals. Let me see if I understand this and ask a couple questions.

If you move the ring magnet on the stator near the magnets on the rotor then the rotor will start moving, correct?

However, the rotor will only move far enough for the FIRST magnet on it to once again reach the RING magnet, and then it will stop moving, correct?

What happens if you put magnets *all* the way around the rotor? If it was one complete loop woundn't the rotor just keep spinning? Have you tried that before

Also, what happens when you have more than one magnet? Does that help or will it just create yet another "sticky point" that interferes and causes the rotor to stop?

Once again, thank you tremendously for your help. I sincerely appreciate it. I'm doing my best to try and understand what's happening here.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: thevorlon on October 23, 2006, 12:04:08 AM
Clanzer,

I'm impressed! Three whole 360 degree revolutions is a great start!

One thing I will say is that I am going to consider the wheel as the rotor and the outside magnet as the stator just to keep things clear in my mind.

Have you considered changing the shape of the stator magnet or using a couple at different angles? One might point directly at the rotor magnets and another might point at an angle to give it a "push" from beside sort of.

By the way, do "mainstream" scientists have an official explanation for why there is always sticky points to deal with? Do they have another name for them? I would like to hear their official explanation because then we could perhaps know more about them and figure a way around them.

Also, do you believe having extra magnets on top (on another level) create additional sticky points? Do they too help at first but then become sticky points?

Keep up the great work! I am very, very tempted to purchase some magnets soon.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 23, 2006, 12:13:35 AM
Sorry TheVordon I am not a scientist or have any background in physics.
I am more of a practical guy who just sticks things together and see's why it does not work or try to get it to work.

There are plenty of other technical guys on these forums that may be able to help you with deeper explanantions, but I found if I kept trying to understand technical theories, then all my time was taken up with reading other peoples writings, rather than just trying for myself.

So my approach is try build it and hey if it works, then let the scientific sorts suss out the long words later!!!!
Science says it is not possible and if we all believe that then this forum and bunch of mad scientists in it would not exist!!!

Must admit I have filled a tube with iron filings this end, which is interesting to see the invisible magnetic fluxes and how they change with different configs. But that about my level of investigating Flux fields LOL

Back to nailing some bits of metal and magnets together this end!!!

Regards

Sean.

Clanzer,

I'm impressed! Three whole 360 degree revolutions is a great start!

One thing I will say is that I am going to consider the wheel as the rotor and the outside magnet as the stator just to keep things clear in my mind.

Have you considered changing the shape of the stator magnet or using a couple at different angles? One might point directly at the rotor magnets and another might point at an angle to give it a "push" from beside sort of.

By the way, do "mainstream" scientists have an official explanation for why there is always sticky points to deal with? Do they have another name for them? I would like to hear their official explanation because then we could perhaps know more about them and figure a way around them.

Also, do you believe having extra magnets on top (on another level) create additional sticky points? Do they too help at first but then become sticky points?

Keep up the great work! I am very, very tempted to purchase some magnets soon.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: thevorlon on October 23, 2006, 12:24:30 AM
Clanzer,

I sent you a private message. If you would, please respond to me by sending me another private message.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm not a scientist myself. The truth is I can understand the basic idea of many concepts, but the technical stuff and advanced concepts are way above my head. One reason why I'm interested in these motors now is because I have realized that just about anyone can tinker with them!

Once again, please respond to my private message.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: Gregory on October 24, 2006, 01:58:47 PM
thevorlon and others,

The experiments you're doing are all very useful in studying how magnets work.
However, if you think once you will be able to make a wheel which is simply spinning by statically fixed permanent magnets, you're on the wrong track. (IMHO)

Just look at an Electromagnetic motor, any DC or AC motor.

The fields must change, The magnets must move somehow in order to have only a chance for something new, or some success. With other words, How can you imitate dynamically changing magnetic fields with the use of permanent magnets only?
(This is the reason why the Torbay motor has some merit.)

If you fix them in position, and hope they will generate continous motive power, or always positive torque... In reality, simply this will never happens. (This is against the functioning and operation of the magnets.) You deal with permanent magnets, with static magnetic fields. When you fix them, they will be fixed, and in this case no practical motion will be possible. Really doesn't matter how you fix them, in what configuration, or in what positions.
I learnt this on the hard way! (by experimenting with my own ideas and setups, just like you.)

In the other hand I believe the thing we are looking for is exist, and it's possible to find it.
Just keep up the good work, continue your experiments and learn about them.
Every experiment can be useful.

Regards,
Greg
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: thevorlon on October 24, 2006, 04:03:26 PM
Greg,

Quite frankly, permanent magnet motors with static magnets do indeed work. They produce movement and force. However, sticky points get in the way. I'm no expert, but I believe with enough work various magnetic field configurations could be made that would help the rotor push past these obstacles. We just have to find a way to eliminate the sticky spots.

Apparently, Steorn already has gotten beyond this obstacle! We just need to figure out how we can adjust the magnets, add insulators, or manipulate the flux to get past the sticy points.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 08:07:42 AM
Any luck with your experiment clanzer? Did you use any of that shielding you purchased? Any updates for us?
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 25, 2006, 08:44:50 AM
Hi Thevorlon

The shielding will take a few days as UK this end and had to order it from the states.
No updates this end as busy doing daytime job to feed the kidz as well LOL!

Tend to push a couple of hours in here and there when I can like everyone else does. Best to treat it like a hobby or else mad scientist syndrome will definatly kick in!!

Spent a bit of time building a new Rig this week below though:

(http://www.cncdudez.com/newrig.jpg)

This now allows me to change the different wheels I have for playing with. Also added a spring loaded arm that can be easly changed for different designs.

Regards

Sean.
 

Any luck with your experiment clanzer? Did you use any of that shielding you purchased? Any updates for us?
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: thevorlon on October 25, 2006, 10:11:11 AM
Clanzer,

Thanks for the update. Could you share with us the size, type, and grade of magnets you are using in that setup?

By the way, my idea is to use a round piece of styrofoam as the base. Or, perhaps some of that material that people use when making flower arrangments. The green material that sits on the bottom of the vase and florists can stick their flowers in. That way it will be easy for me to insert my magnets in whatever pattern I want from the top of the rotor.

By the way, I have an important question I would like to ask you. I mentioned it in my other thread. Do you believe less energy is used getting past the "sticky point" than the energy gained after passing the sticky point? I think this is a critical question.

I have a few ideas to suggest about your setup, but would like to consider the above question first because it directly relates to them.

By the way, if you have the equipment could you make a video of you just playing around with what you have so far and post it to youtube or somewhere so we can look at it?

Seriously, thanks for all of your help and comments. I wish you luck and success! Hope to hear from you soon.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 25, 2006, 11:02:34 PM
Hi TheVordon

The Neodymium magnets I use are Grade N38 and the size varies as have purchased so many different types now LOL

Regards the energy being used before or beyond the sticky point, with the spring loaded arm on my latest Rig I can pulse the arm a fraction of a second before it hits the sticky point and release atleast 5% pass the initial magnets so the repel strength has enough power to continue.
Of course the spring helps to push the magnets back into the field as such and keep the momentum going.
What is noticable is that you start off on slow revolutions having to move the main magnet further away to clear the field, but as the unit speeds up, you only have to move the main magnet a couple of mm.

I will do a video when I have something exciting to report, but videoing every fail can be tedious LOL!

Did have an idea this end flash to mind and that was that, the whole idea of this is to get more on the output than the input and to use a electronic magnet to get past the sticky point actually uses more energy than you can create from the motion of the wheel, well the bright idea was to use maybe instead of a electronic magnet that pulls alot of current to do the pulling of armature, was to maybe use the new muscle wire that everyone is raving about?
The thin muscle wire pulls about 50ma to move a short distance. Apply a current and the wire shortens, release the current and it goes back to normal. Only problem I can see is maybe the speed that it does this.

Regards

Sean.

Clanzer,

Thanks for the update. Could you share with us the size, type, and grade of magnets you are using in that setup?

By the way, my idea is to use a round piece of styrofoam as the base. Or, perhaps some of that material that people use when making flower arrangments. The green material that sits on the bottom of the vase and florists can stick their flowers in. That way it will be easy for me to insert my magnets in whatever pattern I want from the top of the rotor.

By the way, I have an important question I would like to ask you. I mentioned it in my other thread. Do you believe less energy is used getting past the "sticky point" than the energy gained after passing the sticky point? I think this is a critical question.

I have a few ideas to suggest about your setup, but would like to consider the above question first because it directly relates to them.

By the way, if you have the equipment could you make a video of you just playing around with what you have so far and post it to youtube or somewhere so we can look at it?

Seriously, thanks for all of your help and comments. I wish you luck and success! Hope to hear from you soon.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 03:30:36 PM
Clanzer, you may want to consider non electrical methods of controlling the magnetic fields.


Steorn's patent for a LEMA is actually pretty easy to build... now it doesn't really turn off the magnet as the patent might imply, but it effectively allows you to shift a magnet some distance with little force required.. you can use this to pull a magnet far enough out of range that it will glide past the sticky point.

I have some design ideas using the LEMA, on the new steorn thread the thevorlon started.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: CLaNZeR on October 27, 2006, 03:45:34 PM
Hi Kent

All my designs I have tried so far do not use any electrical parts, The muscle wire was just one of those fleeting thoughts!

At the moment I am trying different methods from mechanical cams to shielding and have been following the Steorns thread and will be trying a few ideas of the back of it.

Wil post some pictures when I get there!

Regards

Sean.


Clanzer, you may want to consider non electrical methods of controlling the magnetic fields.


Steorn's patent for a LEMA is actually pretty easy to build... now it doesn't really turn off the magnet as the patent might imply, but it effectively allows you to shift a magnet some distance with little force required.. you can use this to pull a magnet far enough out of range that it will glide past the sticky point.

I have some design ideas using the LEMA, on the new steorn thread the thevorlon started.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 03:50:02 PM
great! definitely let me know how it goes, I'm wanting to try some ideas myself, but I don't have any parts yet.

I have some simple designs listed on the steorn replication thread you may want to take a look at, they are drawn horribly, but many of them are self evident.

If you have anything to offer regarding those i'd be interested in hearing as well..

There's a guy over there who says he's built a LEMA and it appears to function as designed with little force required..  the biggest issue I see though, is that even when the actuator is in the 'off' position, you're still going to have a magnet exposed below... maybe the solution resides in a very 'tall' LEMA with the shield covering 4 or 5 magnets, with 1 exposed above, or below, this allows the movement of the magnet a greater distance with little force.
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: Speedy23 on October 27, 2006, 06:23:39 PM
Quote" the biggest issue I see though, is that even when the actuator is in the 'off' position, you're still going to have a magnet exposed below... " .....not if you use an extended shield/magnet configuration  and separate the 2 magnetic circuits using mu-metal or similar...
Title: Re: Sticky point again
Post by: Kent767 on October 27, 2006, 07:02:23 PM
if your implying using the shielding between the rotor and the LEMA, then you'd still have magnetic attraction between the exposed magnet below the rotor and the shielding, which would add drag.. albeit less than the attraction to the next lema actuator 90 degrees down the rotation..


THat was basically the point i was trying to make, however Idon't know if shielding the rotor on the bottom would even be nessesary.