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Author Topic: Sticky point again  (Read 14780 times)

Offline thevorlon

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2006, 12:04:08 AM »
Clanzer,

I'm impressed! Three whole 360 degree revolutions is a great start!

One thing I will say is that I am going to consider the wheel as the rotor and the outside magnet as the stator just to keep things clear in my mind.

Have you considered changing the shape of the stator magnet or using a couple at different angles? One might point directly at the rotor magnets and another might point at an angle to give it a "push" from beside sort of.

By the way, do "mainstream" scientists have an official explanation for why there is always sticky points to deal with? Do they have another name for them? I would like to hear their official explanation because then we could perhaps know more about them and figure a way around them.

Also, do you believe having extra magnets on top (on another level) create additional sticky points? Do they too help at first but then become sticky points?

Keep up the great work! I am very, very tempted to purchase some magnets soon.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2006, 12:04:08 AM »

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2006, 12:13:35 AM »
Sorry TheVordon I am not a scientist or have any background in physics.
I am more of a practical guy who just sticks things together and see's why it does not work or try to get it to work.

There are plenty of other technical guys on these forums that may be able to help you with deeper explanantions, but I found if I kept trying to understand technical theories, then all my time was taken up with reading other peoples writings, rather than just trying for myself.

So my approach is try build it and hey if it works, then let the scientific sorts suss out the long words later!!!!
Science says it is not possible and if we all believe that then this forum and bunch of mad scientists in it would not exist!!!

Must admit I have filled a tube with iron filings this end, which is interesting to see the invisible magnetic fluxes and how they change with different configs. But that about my level of investigating Flux fields LOL

Back to nailing some bits of metal and magnets together this end!!!

Regards

Sean.

Clanzer,

I'm impressed! Three whole 360 degree revolutions is a great start!

One thing I will say is that I am going to consider the wheel as the rotor and the outside magnet as the stator just to keep things clear in my mind.

Have you considered changing the shape of the stator magnet or using a couple at different angles? One might point directly at the rotor magnets and another might point at an angle to give it a "push" from beside sort of.

By the way, do "mainstream" scientists have an official explanation for why there is always sticky points to deal with? Do they have another name for them? I would like to hear their official explanation because then we could perhaps know more about them and figure a way around them.

Also, do you believe having extra magnets on top (on another level) create additional sticky points? Do they too help at first but then become sticky points?

Keep up the great work! I am very, very tempted to purchase some magnets soon.

Offline thevorlon

  • Jr. Member
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  • Posts: 85
Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2006, 12:24:30 AM »
Clanzer,

I sent you a private message. If you would, please respond to me by sending me another private message.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm not a scientist myself. The truth is I can understand the basic idea of many concepts, but the technical stuff and advanced concepts are way above my head. One reason why I'm interested in these motors now is because I have realized that just about anyone can tinker with them!

Once again, please respond to my private message.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2006, 12:24:30 AM »
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Offline Gregory

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2006, 01:58:47 PM »
thevorlon and others,

The experiments you're doing are all very useful in studying how magnets work.
However, if you think once you will be able to make a wheel which is simply spinning by statically fixed permanent magnets, you're on the wrong track. (IMHO)

Just look at an Electromagnetic motor, any DC or AC motor.

The fields must change, The magnets must move somehow in order to have only a chance for something new, or some success. With other words, How can you imitate dynamically changing magnetic fields with the use of permanent magnets only?
(This is the reason why the Torbay motor has some merit.)

If you fix them in position, and hope they will generate continous motive power, or always positive torque... In reality, simply this will never happens. (This is against the functioning and operation of the magnets.) You deal with permanent magnets, with static magnetic fields. When you fix them, they will be fixed, and in this case no practical motion will be possible. Really doesn't matter how you fix them, in what configuration, or in what positions.
I learnt this on the hard way! (by experimenting with my own ideas and setups, just like you.)

In the other hand I believe the thing we are looking for is exist, and it's possible to find it.
Just keep up the good work, continue your experiments and learn about them.
Every experiment can be useful.

Regards,
Greg

Offline thevorlon

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2006, 04:03:26 PM »
Greg,

Quite frankly, permanent magnet motors with static magnets do indeed work. They produce movement and force. However, sticky points get in the way. I'm no expert, but I believe with enough work various magnetic field configurations could be made that would help the rotor push past these obstacles. We just have to find a way to eliminate the sticky spots.

Apparently, Steorn already has gotten beyond this obstacle! We just need to figure out how we can adjust the magnets, add insulators, or manipulate the flux to get past the sticy points.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2006, 04:03:26 PM »
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Offline thevorlon

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2006, 08:07:42 AM »
Any luck with your experiment clanzer? Did you use any of that shielding you purchased? Any updates for us?

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2006, 08:44:50 AM »
Hi Thevorlon

The shielding will take a few days as UK this end and had to order it from the states.
No updates this end as busy doing daytime job to feed the kidz as well LOL!

Tend to push a couple of hours in here and there when I can like everyone else does. Best to treat it like a hobby or else mad scientist syndrome will definatly kick in!!

Spent a bit of time building a new Rig this week below though:

(http://www.cncdudez.com/newrig.jpg)

This now allows me to change the different wheels I have for playing with. Also added a spring loaded arm that can be easly changed for different designs.

Regards

Sean.
 

Any luck with your experiment clanzer? Did you use any of that shielding you purchased? Any updates for us?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2006, 08:44:50 AM »
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Offline thevorlon

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2006, 10:11:11 AM »
Clanzer,

Thanks for the update. Could you share with us the size, type, and grade of magnets you are using in that setup?

By the way, my idea is to use a round piece of styrofoam as the base. Or, perhaps some of that material that people use when making flower arrangments. The green material that sits on the bottom of the vase and florists can stick their flowers in. That way it will be easy for me to insert my magnets in whatever pattern I want from the top of the rotor.

By the way, I have an important question I would like to ask you. I mentioned it in my other thread. Do you believe less energy is used getting past the "sticky point" than the energy gained after passing the sticky point? I think this is a critical question.

I have a few ideas to suggest about your setup, but would like to consider the above question first because it directly relates to them.

By the way, if you have the equipment could you make a video of you just playing around with what you have so far and post it to youtube or somewhere so we can look at it?

Seriously, thanks for all of your help and comments. I wish you luck and success! Hope to hear from you soon.

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2006, 11:02:34 PM »
Hi TheVordon

The Neodymium magnets I use are Grade N38 and the size varies as have purchased so many different types now LOL

Regards the energy being used before or beyond the sticky point, with the spring loaded arm on my latest Rig I can pulse the arm a fraction of a second before it hits the sticky point and release atleast 5% pass the initial magnets so the repel strength has enough power to continue.
Of course the spring helps to push the magnets back into the field as such and keep the momentum going.
What is noticable is that you start off on slow revolutions having to move the main magnet further away to clear the field, but as the unit speeds up, you only have to move the main magnet a couple of mm.

I will do a video when I have something exciting to report, but videoing every fail can be tedious LOL!

Did have an idea this end flash to mind and that was that, the whole idea of this is to get more on the output than the input and to use a electronic magnet to get past the sticky point actually uses more energy than you can create from the motion of the wheel, well the bright idea was to use maybe instead of a electronic magnet that pulls alot of current to do the pulling of armature, was to maybe use the new muscle wire that everyone is raving about?
The thin muscle wire pulls about 50ma to move a short distance. Apply a current and the wire shortens, release the current and it goes back to normal. Only problem I can see is maybe the speed that it does this.

Regards

Sean.

Clanzer,

Thanks for the update. Could you share with us the size, type, and grade of magnets you are using in that setup?

By the way, my idea is to use a round piece of styrofoam as the base. Or, perhaps some of that material that people use when making flower arrangments. The green material that sits on the bottom of the vase and florists can stick their flowers in. That way it will be easy for me to insert my magnets in whatever pattern I want from the top of the rotor.

By the way, I have an important question I would like to ask you. I mentioned it in my other thread. Do you believe less energy is used getting past the "sticky point" than the energy gained after passing the sticky point? I think this is a critical question.

I have a few ideas to suggest about your setup, but would like to consider the above question first because it directly relates to them.

By the way, if you have the equipment could you make a video of you just playing around with what you have so far and post it to youtube or somewhere so we can look at it?

Seriously, thanks for all of your help and comments. I wish you luck and success! Hope to hear from you soon.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2006, 11:02:34 PM »
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Offline Kent767

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2006, 03:30:36 PM »
Clanzer, you may want to consider non electrical methods of controlling the magnetic fields.


Steorn's patent for a LEMA is actually pretty easy to build... now it doesn't really turn off the magnet as the patent might imply, but it effectively allows you to shift a magnet some distance with little force required.. you can use this to pull a magnet far enough out of range that it will glide past the sticky point.

I have some design ideas using the LEMA, on the new steorn thread the thevorlon started.

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2006, 03:45:34 PM »
Hi Kent

All my designs I have tried so far do not use any electrical parts, The muscle wire was just one of those fleeting thoughts!

At the moment I am trying different methods from mechanical cams to shielding and have been following the Steorns thread and will be trying a few ideas of the back of it.

Wil post some pictures when I get there!

Regards

Sean.


Clanzer, you may want to consider non electrical methods of controlling the magnetic fields.


Steorn's patent for a LEMA is actually pretty easy to build... now it doesn't really turn off the magnet as the patent might imply, but it effectively allows you to shift a magnet some distance with little force required.. you can use this to pull a magnet far enough out of range that it will glide past the sticky point.

I have some design ideas using the LEMA, on the new steorn thread the thevorlon started.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2006, 03:45:34 PM »
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Offline Kent767

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2006, 03:50:02 PM »
great! definitely let me know how it goes, I'm wanting to try some ideas myself, but I don't have any parts yet.

I have some simple designs listed on the steorn replication thread you may want to take a look at, they are drawn horribly, but many of them are self evident.

If you have anything to offer regarding those i'd be interested in hearing as well..

There's a guy over there who says he's built a LEMA and it appears to function as designed with little force required..  the biggest issue I see though, is that even when the actuator is in the 'off' position, you're still going to have a magnet exposed below... maybe the solution resides in a very 'tall' LEMA with the shield covering 4 or 5 magnets, with 1 exposed above, or below, this allows the movement of the magnet a greater distance with little force.

Offline Speedy23

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2006, 06:23:39 PM »
Quote" the biggest issue I see though, is that even when the actuator is in the 'off' position, you're still going to have a magnet exposed below... " .....not if you use an extended shield/magnet configuration  and separate the 2 magnetic circuits using mu-metal or similar...

Offline Kent767

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2006, 07:02:23 PM »
if your implying using the shielding between the rotor and the LEMA, then you'd still have magnetic attraction between the exposed magnet below the rotor and the shielding, which would add drag.. albeit less than the attraction to the next lema actuator 90 degrees down the rotation..


THat was basically the point i was trying to make, however Idon't know if shielding the rotor on the bottom would even be nessesary.

 

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