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Author Topic: Sticky point again  (Read 14259 times)

Offline CLaNZeR

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Sticky point again
« on: October 22, 2006, 02:16:08 PM »
Has anyone tried the design below as it reckons the steel bar will get pass the sticky point.
I cannot see this myself.

(http://www.cncdudez.com/stickypoint.jpg)

Regards

Sean.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Sticky point again
« on: October 22, 2006, 02:16:08 PM »

Offline djancak

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2006, 06:44:21 PM »
It seems like it is worth trying, at least. Anybody here have the tools needed to build the iron ramp?

Offline Liberty

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2006, 06:58:09 PM »
I would suggest that you consider the amount of eddy currents that will be present in the iron bar.  A laminated core built in sections with the core cut and separated by thin insulators might be helpful?  I would also be sure to include a thin insulator on the back end of the stator magnet so electric eddy currents won't conduct through the stator magnet. 

The stator magnet may have to be spaced away from the rotor to limit the repel field that is not shunted out.  This may limit motor torque power.  The shunt will have to cover over half of the stator magnet to get past the opposing repel field.  (I would guess).

Best wishes.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2006, 06:58:09 PM »
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Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2006, 07:53:21 PM »
hmmm reminds me of http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=751.0;attach=734

but yours looks more simple. thanks.

peace

Offline thevorlon

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2006, 08:50:09 PM »
I'm a newbie here, and learning. So please bare with me for a bit.

That motor in the picture at the start of this thread is very similiar to what I was considering in my mind except that in my imagination there was not an Iron magnetic ramp. Now, what would happen in such a device with the SAME magnet configuration, but NO Iron magnetic ram? What would be the result? It can't be that simple, because I believe there must be one of those "sticky" points that would be a big problem in such a setup.

Could someone please explain this to me?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2006, 08:50:09 PM »
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Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2006, 09:30:00 PM »
Hi TheVorlen

I am new to this myself and only stocked up with magnets and started milling out different size wheels a few weeks ago.
I have been interested in the theory of it all for years but have at last decided that the only way to understand the problems and stumbling blocks is to do the Practical.

You will soon discover as soon as you start playing that it does not matter what configuration you choose you always hit this sticky point where the force of the magnet stops the wheel in its tracks.
You can configure the magnets at different angles and see the power/torque increase but at the same time so does the force of the sticky point when hit!.

It simple enough to get around all these sticky points if you want to introduce an electrical magnet as with a little bit of timing, just simply switching this on and off at the precise moment will indeed get over the sticky point, but that defeats the idea of using just permanent magnets.
This is the same as simply holding a magnet and moving it backwards when the sticky point. The wheels I have played with spin so fast that my human reactions cannot move the magnet out of the way in time!!!
Physics tell you, that you will use up more force than created by using a mechanical way of moving the magnet back and forth fromt he sticky point, so I have not gone down that road yet, I mean yet!
 
My conclusion so far is that it is not the design of the wheel that is a mystery, you can set up magnets in pretty well any configuration to get the effect of movement but eventually ya gonna hit that sticky point.
 
So my quest at the moment is how to get past this sticky point and I like the idea of the thread using a 180hz pulse to cancel out the magnet as this will take not alot of power compared to using a electrical magnet, will get around to knocking up a circuit when time allows.
I think there has to be a lot of materials out there that have not been tested regards magnetic shielding ( Or magnetic Divert), so this is an area that I am heading down at the moment.

To me it is a bit of fun and I do not look at it in a commercial gain way as others, but if it can be cracked then what a gift to this world that needs it more than ever at the moment.

Have fun and these forums are a great source of info. The outside world will think you are mad, but within these forum walls you will be the norm LOL

Regards

Sean.

I'm a newbie here, and learning. So please bare with me for a bit.

That motor in the picture at the start of this thread is very similiar to what I was considering in my mind except that in my imagination there was not an Iron magnetic ramp. Now, what would happen in such a device with the SAME magnet configuration, but NO Iron magnetic ram? What would be the result? It can't be that simple, because I believe there must be one of those "sticky" points that would be a big problem in such a setup.

Could someone please explain this to me?

Offline thevorlon

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2006, 09:36:03 PM »
Clanzer,

Thanks so much for your reply!

I think I am understanding the concept of what a sticky point is (literally a point where the magnets themselves cause the wheel to stop) but not the CAUSE or REASON sticky points do what they do.

For example, take the image in the start of this thread. If you removed the iron bar and just left the magnet on the stator and the magnet on the rotor would there be a sticky point? If so, where? What would be causing it?

The problem probably is that I have not expeirmented yet, but in my mind in the above setup there should be no sticky point. Both magnets should repel each other, cause the wheel to move, and in a complete setup the wheel would accelerate.

I'm just not understanding the sticky point in this device.

Also, could explain to me exactly what is a magnetic flux gate?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2006, 09:36:03 PM »
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Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2006, 09:46:32 PM »
The outside world will think you are mad, but within these forum walls you will be the norm LOL

Amen my brother. lol

Offline djancak

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2006, 10:00:30 PM »
hmmm reminds me of http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=751.0;attach=734

but yours looks more simple. thanks.

peace

could you post the URL to the thread that you got this from please

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2006, 10:00:30 PM »
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Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2006, 10:11:42 PM »

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2006, 10:15:28 PM »
TheVorlen

Below is an example of one of my wheels cut out of Plexiglass.
I have a number of magnets in a 180 degree arc with each magnet moving in a little around the curve.
I should really counter balance it with a weight on the other half, but the bearing I am using is so loose it does not need it.
All the North Poles are facing outwards and the magnets are as close as I can get them
(http://www.cncdudez.com/arc1.jpg)

Next below I place a powerfull ring magnet towards it with North facing towards the north facing arc magnets.
It takes off with a lot of power and usually does 3 full rotaions before hitting the sticky point.
(http://www.cncdudez.com/arc2.jpg)

Below again you can see the approx sticky point, it is just before the beginning of the arc. The north against north repel is that great that it cannot get beyond it.

(http://www.cncdudez.com/arc3.jpg)

If I dip the magnet at this point and bring it back up just after the sticky point the wheel gains speed and power and flies at great speed.

Regards

Sean
 

Clanzer,

Thanks so much for your reply!

I think I am understanding the concept of what a sticky point is (literally a point where the magnets themselves cause the wheel to stop) but not the CAUSE or REASON sticky points do what they do.

For example, take the image in the start of this thread. If you removed the iron bar and just left the magnet on the stator and the magnet on the rotor would there be a sticky point? If so, where? What would be causing it?

The problem probably is that I have not expeirmented yet, but in my mind in the above setup there should be no sticky point. Both magnets should repel each other, cause the wheel to move, and in a complete setup the wheel would accelerate.

I'm just not understanding the sticky point in this device.

Also, could explain to me exactly what is a magnetic flux gate?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2006, 10:15:28 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2006, 10:26:47 PM »
The outside world will think you are mad, but within these forum walls you will be the norm LOL

Amen my brother. lol

ROFL, when they start handing out the awards you got my vote mate!!!!


Offline Kator01

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2006, 11:00:46 PM »
Hello,

yes, it is clear, you initialize the rotation approaching from above with the ring-magnet. In this initializing situation you are not close enough that the opposing poles stop the rotation at this sticky point-coordinate.Then, if you have come down with the ringmagnet to a level of rest, with each full rotation of the three rotations it has to pass the sticky point. At first you hardly will notice it but it slows down a bit as it will do while passing this sticky point the second time, again slowing down and finally it has lost so much of the initial-energy it stops. See what I mean.
In the hamel-devices you find that there is a tumbling movement of the the conical cylinders. So you have to tilt the ringmagnet in an oscillatory manner. How much energy that costs in comparison of the spin-energy ? I don not know.

Kator


Offline thevorlon

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2006, 11:35:13 PM »
Clanzer,

Thanks for the visuals. Let me see if I understand this and ask a couple questions.

If you move the ring magnet on the stator near the magnets on the rotor then the rotor will start moving, correct?

However, the rotor will only move far enough for the FIRST magnet on it to once again reach the RING magnet, and then it will stop moving, correct?

What happens if you put magnets *all* the way around the rotor? If it was one complete loop woundn't the rotor just keep spinning? Have you tried that before

Also, what happens when you have more than one magnet? Does that help or will it just create yet another "sticky point" that interferes and causes the rotor to stop?

Once again, thank you tremendously for your help. I sincerely appreciate it. I'm doing my best to try and understand what's happening here.

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: Sticky point again
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2006, 11:50:55 PM »
As shown in the second picture as soon as you place the magnet in position, the wheel will take off and spin yes.
Because I am using strong magnets, the stator will spin atleast 3 full 360 degrees before hitting the sticky point, as Kator01 pointed out it slows down for each full revolution.

If you place the magnets in a closed loop 360 degrees all the way around, it does not seem to do alot.
As you can see the aluminium strip is a bit buckled as I had tried this and brought it around to a complete 100mm circle.
It does not do alot in this configuration without alot of hand movement.

In my experiments it seems you need the offset to get the motion.
So hence when you go for the 360 degree offset, you end up with the end of the spiral tucked up further into the center of the wheel and hence the sticky point seems to increase and reduces it to maybe 1 or 2 full revolutions.
By using the 180 degree arc you will maybe get 3-5 full revolutions before it stops.

I have placed a second wheel above the wheel with the arc, with magnets spaced evenly around and again it eventually stops.

I have tried many configurations from all angles and still the dreaded sticky point comes bacl to haunt you.

A side point to this, has anyone noticed that playing with strong magnets, after a few hours at a time seems to give you Sea Legs???
(Sea Legs is a effect that you get when you have been out on a boat all day and when you get off the boat to dry land, you stil feel like you are still rocking to the movement of the waves!!!)

Regards

Sean.


Clanzer,

Thanks for the visuals. Let me see if I understand this and ask a couple questions.

If you move the ring magnet on the stator near the magnets on the rotor then the rotor will start moving, correct?

However, the rotor will only move far enough for the FIRST magnet on it to once again reach the RING magnet, and then it will stop moving, correct?

What happens if you put magnets *all* the way around the rotor? If it was one complete loop woundn't the rotor just keep spinning? Have you tried that before

Also, what happens when you have more than one magnet? Does that help or will it just create yet another "sticky point" that interferes and causes the rotor to stop?

Once again, thank you tremendously for your help. I sincerely appreciate it. I'm doing my best to try and understand what's happening here.

 

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