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Author Topic: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.  (Read 118632 times)

Offline tinman

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Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« on: December 14, 2015, 03:08:53 PM »
I posted a quick video showing how having a rotor with alternating magnetic field passing a pulsed inductor can improve the efficiency of that inductor as far as the inductive kickback output go's.

Tonight i through together a quick pulse motor type setup that is close to the bedini SSG-only triggered by my FG. I was quite surprised at just how much the P/in increased,and the P/out decrease just by removing the spinning rotor with the magnets in it.

How is it that the pulsed inductor provides the energy to spin the rotor,but the efficiency of the system also increases.

Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVhYGiJFRFY


Brad
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 12:18:24 AM by tinman »

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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's an Inductors.
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 07:31:02 PM »
I posted a quick video showing how having a rotor with alternating magnetic field passing a pulsed inductor can improve the efficiency of that inductor as far as the inductive kickback output go's.

Tonight i through together a quick pulse motor type setup that is close to the bedini SSG-only triggered by my FG. I was quite surprised at just how much the P/in increased,and the P/out decrease just by removing the spinning rotor with the magnets in it.

How is it that the pulsed inductor provides the energy to spin the rotor,but the efficiency of the system also increases.

Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVhYGiJFRFY


Brad

The title of your clip is "Proof that Magnetic Fields Increase Efficiency in Pulse Motors" and you have proved nothing of the sort.  The only thing that you have done is lead yourself down a garden path.

I am basically giving up on all of this circuit analysis stuff and I watched your clip but it's a rare thing for me to do these days.  Just like you saw some frustration expressed on the pulse measurement clip I feel the same frustration.

I must have stated hundreds of times over the years that understanding electronic circuits is all about understanding the timing analysis of the circuit.  I have said the same thing over and over about pulse motors because they are nothing more than very simple electronic circuits in action - they are a class of circuits called pulse circuits.  In pulse circuits timing is king.

Yet you barely pay any attention to the timing of the circuit which is right there on your scope display.  Instead you just look at the average reading on your scope display and then look at your multimeters and read the numbers.  You use the numbers to arrive at a bogus conclusion and ignore the timing diagram.

I did two screen caps and they are attached.  All the answers to explaining what is going on is arrived at by looking at the timing diagrams first and the numbers second.

Your conclusion is dead wrong.  See if you and your peers can figure it out.

Offline tinman

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's an Inductors.
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 11:53:47 PM »
The title of your clip is "Proof that Magnetic Fields Increase Efficiency in Pulse Motors" and you have proved nothing of the sort.  The only thing that you have done is lead yourself down a garden path.

I am basically giving up on all of this circuit analysis stuff and I watched your clip but it's a rare thing for me to do these days.  Just like you saw some frustration expressed on the pulse measurement clip I feel the same frustration.

I must have stated hundreds of times over the years that understanding electronic circuits is all about understanding the timing analysis of the circuit.  I have said the same thing over and over about pulse motors because they are nothing more than very simple electronic circuits in action - they are a class of circuits called pulse circuits.  In pulse circuits timing is king.

Yet you barely pay any attention to the timing of the circuit which is right there on your scope display.  Instead you just look at the average reading on your scope display and then look at your multimeters and read the numbers.  You use the numbers to arrive at a bogus conclusion and ignore the timing diagram.

I did two screen caps and they are attached.  All the answers to explaining what is going on is arrived at by looking at the timing diagrams first and the numbers second.

Your conclusion is dead wrong.  See if you and your peers can figure it out.

MH

What are you talking about???
The timing never changes,as the transistor is being triggered by my function generator at 37 hZ.
What are the two screen shots suppose to represent?. You have taken one screen shot from the middle of the scope screen,and one to the right hand side of the scope screen.

Are you sure you watched the video?-->sure dosnt seem that way.

The only thing i did,was removed the rotor with the magnets--nothing else was altered within the DUT. So how about having another go at explaining as to why removing the spinning magnets changed the efficiency so much?.

Below is two screen shots from the video. The first with the rotor and magnets in place,and the second without the rotor and magnets in play. Both scope shots now show the vertical center line of the scope screen. So now,please show us where the timing has changed,and !how! the timing could have been changed when the transistor is being triggered by the FG?.

I often wonder who is leading who up the garden path ::)


Brad

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's an Inductors.
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 11:53:47 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's an Inductors.
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 12:06:10 AM »
Ya know MH,, this is one of the many reasons I am not so much into "electronics",, way to much math :)

But if "I" were to look at the two pics you posted then I would assume the upper pic has less draw and a higher return than the lower pic,, it is all about what is under the graph,, right?

So the ripple in the yellow trace while the voltage is off is part of the return, and the spike at the end of the voltage on time is also part of the return,, the very short constant (the peak of the blue trace) on time means less than the other one with a flat top,, right?? and then you are supposed to multiply the yellow trace by the blue trace for each point,, right?? something like that anyway I am guessing.

So that then would be if the step down in current for the bottom trace over the longer time at the higher voltage is more or less  for the bottom pic than the top pic,, but the return is more with than without simply due to the induction process of the rotating magnets.

I am also guessing that taking the average readings over time in the same way for both does not then reflect on the power dissipated over the time of observation,, I would of thought that if the draw were higher then the averaged reading would be higher as well,,

While these things are not all twisted up I try to follow and learn,, but they get real deep real fast and I then just blow over them,,

Webby

Do not just let this pass you by due to MH mistake.
Think about what is taking place within the DUT. The inductors magnetic field is the source of energy that drives the rotor. This !should mean that either the input should rise,or the output should fall,as some of the available energy should be used to spin the rotor. But as you can clearly see,that is not the case,the spinning rotor with magnets decreases the P/in while increasing the P/out.

MH just got it all wrong,as there is no timing adjustment in the DUT-the timing remains the same-->an apples for apples test,where the apples are bigger with the spinning rotor and magnets in play. The video and DUT is not about efficiency--it is about the increase and decrease of efficiency with and without the spinning magnets.

The data from the scope is telling us that the efficiency of the DUT without the spinning magnets is around 14.38%,and with the spinning magnet(the !only! change made to the DUT),the efficiency is around 22.59%. Our spinning magnets raised the efficiency by 8.21%.

Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's an Inductors.
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 12:22:29 AM »

Takes a big person to admit that he may have prematurely dismissed something.  It really is good to see the old Tinman at work.  Now if I could only convince you to put your damn scope, meters, the need for making comparisons between input and output, and finally the need for proving a case  away for a month or two so that we can begin brainstorming.   Of all the talented folk out there, you seem to have a pretty good idea of what you want, but, I have yet to hear you voice what it is that you want. 


It's time for voicing what we want Tinman, all of us.  From that point, we can discuss possibilities.....how we plan on accomplishing the tasks we set for ourselves.  This has to happen, without reference to measuring instruments.


Refreshing video.




Regards

Hi Erfinder.

I use my equipment to see what effect changes i make have on the DUT,and also to show those that choose to see the magic behind the permanent magnets magnetic field. It's also to show the guru's,as it gives them something to try and explain away.

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's an Inductors.
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 12:22:29 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 12:43:56 AM »
I was actually taking the opportunity to see if my understanding of what to do with the scope information is reasonable.

While it is not getting all that involved with 2 pics and not a lot of math,, I figure that eventually I might get a "feeling" for the electronics,, I am kind of all thumbs with it right now and I have a nice little scope to use someday,, I would not want to blow it up like my other test equipment or misunderstand what it is showing,,  TK's stuff is educational,, but until I have a "feel" for it all I am useless :)

Have you tried rotating the poles of your PM's? that is so that they chase each other nose to tail around the circumference but with a large gap between the PM's? at low speeds it creates a nice little dual voltage thing,, stuff like this is what I play with when I do,, not so much with the circuits and scopes and all that.  I had a version of that running one day on a constant DC feed using the snap field when crossing over the PM to allow the rotor to pass,, not overly impressive but it was fun for the day.

The rotor has 8 N52 neo's in it,and they are alternating poles.

Brad

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 12:59:56 AM »
Brad:

If you were wise, you would take it as a given that I am right.  Or you can even operate on the basis of assuming that I am right just for the sake of argument and then find out where that leads you and what happens in the end.

Because right now you are balking and therefore not putting any thought into it.  So if you aren't going to try to think, then there is no point.  Then you can expect yet another experiment that fades into obscurity with no proper analysis and no proper conclusion.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 12:59:56 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2015, 02:55:14 AM »
Brad:

If you were wise, you would take it as a given that I am right.  Or you can even operate on the basis of assuming that I am right just for the sake of argument and then find out where that leads you and what happens in the end.

Because right now you are balking and therefore not putting any thought into it.  So if you aren't going to try to think, then there is no point.  Then you can expect yet another experiment that fades into obscurity with no proper analysis and no proper conclusion.

MileHigh

MileHigh,

You and I had a few discussions a few years ago.  At that time I mostly agreed with the things you posted.  What happened to you?  Your posts in this thread don't make any sense.  You allude to some kind of error about timing and never explain what that has to do with anything.  When Brad says there is no timing change you ignore that and in a very condescending way tell him he should always know that you are right.  Huh?  Say what?  None of us are ALWAYS right.  If you really have a technical explanation for what he is seeing then please explain.  Otherwise posting nothing at all would be a better option.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Offline citfta

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 03:13:02 AM »
Hi Brad,

I really enjoyed that video.  It is interesting.  I can think of one thing that might explain some of the effect you are seeing.  I do believe the moving magnets are playing an important part in what you are seeing.  I think because they are alternating they are helping to put some power back into the coil.  I also think the presence of the magnet when the coil is turned on probably affects the impedance of the coil causing it to use less current.  Just some random ideas from working with coils and magnets.  Keep up the good work.

Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 03:13:02 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 03:20:53 AM »
If you were wise, you would take it as a given that I am right. 
That attitude would be contrary to the principles of the scientific method.

Brad should rebutte your statements with logical arguments and experimental data.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 03:24:00 AM »
MileHigh,

You and I had a few discussions a few years ago.  At that time I mostly agreed with the things you posted.  What happened to you?  Your posts in this thread don't make any sense.  You allude to some kind of error about timing and never explain what that has to do with anything.  When Brad says there is no timing change you ignore that and in a very condescending way tell him he should always know that you are right.  Huh?  Say what?  None of us are ALWAYS right.  If you really have a technical explanation for what he is seeing then please explain.  Otherwise posting nothing at all would be a better option.

Respectfully,
Carroll

I clearly am not saying that I am "always right" and what I am saying makes perfect sense.  I am not going to explain anything, I would just be repeating stuff that I have already said 50 times before.

It's time for the experimenters to figure out things for themselves, to challenge themselves.  Working on the problem and arriving at the proper conclusion would be the best thing that could happen here.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 03:24:00 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's an Inductors.
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2015, 03:25:20 AM »
What are you talking about???
The timing never changes,as the transistor is being triggered by my function generator at 37 hZ.
The word "timing" does not only mean frequency and the time when a pulse begins (like the timing of a spark in a gasoline engine) - in electronics it also means how the entire signal varies in time and how it varies in time compared to other signals.

I am sure MH meant the above.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 03:38:23 AM »
That attitude would be contrary to the principles of the scientific method.

It's just another method at arriving at a proper conclusion, an exercise in deduction.  I arrive at conclusion "A" and then someone tells me that I am totally wrong and there is another conclusion.  If I am going to assume for the sake of argument that what this person told me is correct, then I can start over and try to reason things out.  If my reasoning results in my arriving at the same conclusion "A" then I have developed an argument to back up my statements.  However, if I follow a new path that takes me to a totally different conclusion that refutes my original conclusion and my peers agree with me and we have a consensus, then that is a very worthwhile exercise for myself and my peers.  The new conclusion may also be in accord with the unmentioned conclusion that the other person has.

In summary, I will have developed a completely new line of reasoning that hopefully is correct and refutes my original conclusion, and I hopefully will have learned something at the same time.

That's the point.

Offline citfta

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 03:46:24 AM »
Hi Brad,

Looking at the still scope shots you can see that the applied voltage going to the coil does not cause the current to reach the saturation point  when the magnets are in use.  If you look at the same shot without the magnets you can see the top of the curve start to flatten just before the voltage is cut off.  This indicates the coil current has almost reached the saturation point.  So this does confirm the magnets are affecting the inductance of the coil.  You can also see the discharge time is longer when the magnets are spinning past the coil.  Hope these ideas help some as we learn about magnets and coils.

Carroll

Offline verpies

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Re: Rotating Magnetic Field's an Inductors.
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 04:14:01 AM »
I am also guessing that taking the average readings over time in the same way for both does not then reflect on the power dissipated over the time of observation
In a general case you are correct.
Mean current and mean voltage are useless for general power calculations ...yet that is what most multimeters display.

However, in the special case, when the DUT is supplied by a constant voltage (v), then the instantaneous input powers are:
v*i1 ,  v*i2 ,  v*i3 , ...... ,  v*iN
where i1 ,  i2i3 , ...... ,  iN   represent the successive input current samples.

...and the mean input power is:
(v*i1 + v*i2 + v*i3 + ...... +v*iN) / N
or
v*(i1 + i2 + i3 + ...... +iN) / N

Note, that the term:
(i1 + i2 + i3 + ...... +iN) / N
is the arithmetical mean of the current. Let's call it iMEAN

so we can write, that the mean input power is:
PMEAN = v * iMEAN
...as long as v is constant.

This formula works even when the current is negative.  Positive voltage and negative current mean that energy is returned to the power supply (C.V. source).

Note that this formula does not work when the DUT is supplied from a variable voltage source (e.g. PDC, AC, DC+AC)
For those other cases, these methods of power measurement and calculation should be used.

 

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