New theories about free energy systems => Theory of overunity and free energy => Topic started by: lancaIV on December 11, 2015, 10:14:38 PM

Title: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: lancaIV on December 11, 2015, 10:14:38 PM
Praeambel: Axiom
Energy can neither disappear nor arise of itself, it can only change its form. This is a physical law, defined by Robert Mayer in the year 1842nd From the beginning it was only a hypothesis, which has become over time without a thorough scientific analysis of a hardened dogma and was later declared as a law of physics. That was the stumbling block with historic consequences for the whole of physics.

A device for checking if electric power is destructible, characterized in that the calorimeter (10) accumulator (1) and an electric capacitor (4) and differential thermometer (11) are countersunk, and by means of the electrical lines (2, 3) arranged on the outside, the polarity-changing unit (14) are connected and that the calorimeter (10) is sunk in the thermostat (13), in which the water temperature is controlled with thermometer (16).

Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: gyulasun on December 12, 2015, 12:41:35 AM
Hi Lanca,

Very interesting, to say the least...  thanks for referring to his latest application.

So, when we charge up a capacitor from a previously charged-up battery and then we discharge the capacitor back to the battery with opposite polarities, then the energy stored originally in the battery "disappears' because there is no "trace" where it was dissipated in the process. I think this is what is stated.
The example cited in the text claims a previously charged up 24V battery (with known charge) was discharged in one hour by the switching process whereby a 100 uF capacitor was first charged up from the battery and then discharged by the same battery when the cap was connected back in parallel with the battery with opposite polarity.

quote: "With the apparatus shown in Fig. 2 many measurements have repeatedly been
performed, at various battery voltage and frequency as well as at various different
capacitance of the capacitor, with all measurements in the calorimeter temperature were always
constant. All acquired data have confirmed that the discharge energy in many thousands of Joule
heat energy has no equivalent in, say, in the words of Robert Mayer "the energy has disappeared."  unquote

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: conradelektro on December 12, 2015, 10:40:12 AM
The energy is mainly going into the recharging of the battery (accumulator).

- When the capacitor is charged the battery is discharged, a chemical reaction happens in the battery which frees energy (electricity is set free).

- When the capacitor discharges back into the battery, a reverse chemical reaction happens in the battery which consumes energy (electricity is consumed).

Very little heat is produced during both chemical reactions.

Equivalent: It is like lifting a weight from the floor and letting it drop back to the floor. Lifting the weight is equivalent to charging the battery (it consumes energy to lift the weight) and letting the weight drop back to the floor is like discharging the battery (energy is set free when the weight drops back to the floor).

The error in the strange patent is to disregard (or to overlook) the two chemical reactions in the battery. One reaction (discharging) frees energy and the other (charging) consumes energy. The net sum is close to zero, some small heat losses happen.

Does anybody really think that science has overlooked such a simple thing for two centuries? Come on, be real!

Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: gyulasun on December 12, 2015, 12:48:36 PM

Yes I understand all that and agree with what you wrote.  However, what I have been pondering is that actually when the charged-up capacitor is discharged through the same battery, the capacitor's polarity is opposite to that of the battery in those moments, this  cannot cause the same reverse chemical reaction like the case when we charge the battery with the correct polarity current.
If we replace the capacitor with a second battery and repeat the discharge process as if it was a capacitor,  a huge current would flow in the closed circuit as long as the two batteries would heavily heat up and get burnt if the switch is let ON for a certain time.  (This is the same when you short circuit two series connected batteries with a piece of wire via a switch.)

But in the case of the capacitor the huge current would flow for milliseconds only, (RC time constant defined by the inner resistances of the battery and ESR of the capacitor and the uF capacitor value)  till the capacitor (exponentially) discharges into the very low inner resistance of the (first) battery.

So the energy from the capacitor cannot cause the normal recharging of the battery due to the reversed polarity, in this respect the battery is a load which however does not show dissipated heat.

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: lancaIV on December 12, 2015, 12:52:02 PM
for me this here is not unknown : http://www.ultrabattery.com/ (http://www.ultrabattery.com/)

Hello Gyula ,
do  you mean something like this (instead the net-grid a battery-/condensator-grid ?)
Citating:
It is known as a capacitor behaves in the network. Although this apparently transmits electricity, it consumes no power. A capacitor takes during the amplitude rise to power and delivers exactly this current during the amplitude drop to the mains again. When the capacitor is charged but switched to Zustan during the amplitude drop to the network, the discharge takes place in the network, even if the charge was not originally comes from the network. At the zero crossing of the mains voltage of the capacitor must be disconnected from the mains again, because otherwise he would be recharged from the grid with opposite polarity. When the capacitor is thus charged before Amplitudenabfal from any power source, and is discharged during the amplitude drop in the power, power is supplied to the grid. If this makes this capacitor during the positive half-wave, a second capacitor, this may during the negative half-wave. However, this principle also works with only one half-wave.
Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: conradelektro on December 12, 2015, 05:28:06 PM
So the energy from the capacitor cannot cause the normal recharging of the battery due to the reversed polarity, in this respect the battery is a load which however does not show dissipated heat.

Gyula, you are right, I did not understand the circuit presented in this patent application correctly.

So, my explanation is wrong. The mystery remains, or the author of the patent application is not telling the truth.

May be I try it. I have a rather small led acid battery (5 Ah) and some old big electrolytic capacitors (25 V, 10.000 µF). I suspect that the switches create huge sparks and eventually burn through.

I will and can not do the temperature measurement. I just want to see whether the cap, the switches or the wires become hot as Gyula suggests. If they become hot, the patent application is nonsense.

Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: gyulasun on December 12, 2015, 07:32:06 PM

Okay, and in case you tend to test the circuit and happen to have 4 high current MOSFETs (or bipolar power transistors) of the same type, with at least 25-30 Amper drain (or collector) current ratings, then you may wish to use a H-bridge to do the switching.
A H-bridge just does exactly what the double switch in the patent application does: changes the polarity of the input supply voltage across the load at its output. The load here would be the capacitor and the supply voltage to the H-bridge would be your small lead acid battery.
Notice that electrolytic capacitors are not suitable in this circuit because of the polarity change across the capacitor. An AC type or a non-polar electrolytic would need to be used.
Alternatively, you may use two electrolytic caps in series (with 'steering' diodes in parallel with each) to protect them from the opposite polarity, see a possible solution: http://i.stack.imgur.com/UxfjU.png from this link: http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/21928/can-you-make-a-non-polar-electrolytic-capacitor-out-of-two-regular-electrolytic ).
Of course the resulting capacitor would be only half the value of any of the two identical caps. The current rating for the diodes should also be in the 20-30 A range, basically the peak current would only be limited in the circuit shown by the contact resistances of the switches and by the inner resistance of the battery and by the ESR of the capacitor(s). Estimating the sum of all these resistances to be under say 1 Ohm, from a 12V battery the current would be a minimum of 12 A or higher.

If someone is not familiar with H-bridges, here are some circuits:
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/H-Bridge/H-Bridge-1.html

Of course you can use a mechanical relay with two independent on-off contact pairs (double Morse if I recall correctly). Sparking would surely occur at the contacts but may not be as severe as would be with coil switching.
The use of heavy wires to handle the high peak currents is a must.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: conradelektro on December 13, 2015, 10:09:08 PM
Gyula,

combining two electrolytic capacitors is a neat idea. I also like the H-bridge for switching polarity.

I did a simple test with a 10 µF AC capacitor (see the attached photo).

- I touched the two poles of the battery with the leads of the capacitor. There was a spark.

- Then I turned the capacitor around (switching polarity) and touched the two poles of the battery again. There was again a spark.

And of course, one can do that over an over again.

I did not observe anything strange, all was as expected.

Before building an H-bridge and doing longer tests I will try some calculations:

I seems to be common knowledge that halve of the charge in the capacitor is lost in the resistance of the lead wires and the inner resistance of the capacitor (when charging it). I want to calculate or estimate the heat generated by that. Then I want to calculate the heat generated if a 5 Ah 12 battery is discharged through a 1 Ohm resistor.

I have a question for the experts:

Let's say the capacitor is charged to 12 V. And then when it is turned around (changing polarity) and connected to the 12 V battery, will there be needed the double charge to recharge it from -12 V to 12 V in comparison to charging it from 0 V to 12 V?

Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: gyulasun on December 14, 2015, 12:38:36 AM

Thanks for doing the simple test.

I am going to attempt an answer to your question on whether a double charge is needed?

Well, I think that the moment the charged up capacitor is switched onto the battery with reversed polarity, the capacitor would be the 'generator' and would pump current into the inner resistance of the battery. So the direction of the current flow would be towards the battery till the moment all the charge from the capacitor is "consumed".
So during this discharge process of the capacitor I do not think the battery would need to lose charge, at least not significant charge like the capacitor has just lost.

And just after this discharge process will the capacitor be able to take up the normal charge with the polarity equal to that of the battery and this now obviously consumes energy from the battery till the voltage level across the capacitor reaches that of the battery, the usual capacitor charge-up process takes place.
And then the process starts again by operating the double switch again.

Though I may be wrong, this is how I think and this would mean that a double charge would not be taken from the battery. I am not good in solving chemical formulas which may be needed to consider possible effects what the appearance of the opposite polarity voltage source would have on the materials of the electrodes and the acid liquid or gel in the battery. Of course the chemical formulas and the events taking place during the charge-up of a battery from a normal polarity source are known.

Regarding your wish to estimate the generated heat, is your LCR meter able to measure the ESR of capacitors? because that would be a good approach to know the loss in your capacitor. Of course a good estimation of the inner resistance of your 5 Ah 12 V battery would also be needed (by known resistor load tests) so that the max peak currents could be figured in advance before you consider the switching components of a H-bridge.

Maybe a series 1 Ohm or 0.1 Ohm current shunt resistor inserted in series with say the battery negative and monitor the voltage drop across it with your scope would be enough to evalute possible losses in the battery and the capacitor (and in the switches of the H-bridge) once the series loss resistances are known for them with a good approximation.

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: conradelektro on December 14, 2015, 06:08:47 PM
I did some research into applying a current with the wrong polarity to a lead acid battery:

Over-charging a lead acid battery is equivalent to applying the current with the wrong polarity and causes the formation of lead sulphate (as during charging), but this lead sulphate will be mainly hard lead sulphate which can not be reversed when discharging the battery.

So, when the capacitor in the patent is witched to the wrong polarity and connected to the battery the same chemical process happens as when charging the battery . This "charging" happens from -12 V till 0 Volt, then the capacitor will be charged to + 12 V.

It follows, that the energy stored in the capacitor during charging will be consumed "as charging energy" in the battery and will produce little heat.

What happens in the patent:

- Step 1: When the capacitor is charged from 0 V to +12 V, halve of the energy is lost as heat in the wires, the battery and the capacitor, the other halve is stored in the capacitor as charge.

- Step 2: When the capacitor "is turned around" and connected to the battery with the wrong polarity, this halve energy is consumed by the battery in the chemical process which generates lead-sulphate (but "hard lead sulphate" which is lost). This happens when the capacitor discharges into the battery from -12 V to 0V. Then from 0 V to 12 V step 1 happens again.

Note: step 2 does not charge the battery, but depletes it further because the created lead-sulphate is lost (it sinks to the bottom of the battery and can not be consumed as charge when drawing energy from the battery).

Conclusion: a lot of energy is lost in the chemical process which happens when "over-charging" the battery (creation of hard lead-sulphate) by connecting the "turned around capacitor" with the wrong polarity to the battery. This seems to be the mystery of the strange patent.

Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: lancaIV on December 15, 2015, 12:37:22 PM
Conclusion: a lot of energy is lost in the chemical process which happens when "over-charging" the battery (creation of hard lead-sulphate) by connecting the "turned around capacitor" with the wrong polarity to the battery. This seems to be the mystery of the strange  patent.

http://www.bticcs.com/pub.htm   (http://www.bticcs.com/pub.htm)
The battery life is extended to over 5000 cycles* without any consequential loss of battery capacity. This increases a NC's battery life span to more than 15 years, if charged daily.• The average charging time is 20 minutes**• Charging may start from any state of battery charge, just like filling up a gasoline tank. No discharge is required. On standby, a battery is ready at any time - with 100% full charge.•
No memory effect• The new technology can correct memory effect, battery faults, and reconditions deeply discharged, old, flat batteries.

This value is continuously monitored and evaluated by the CCS (see Fig. 3). It recognizes a characteristic trend change of the fully charged condition which is independent of battery type, number of cells, temperature, parasitic voltage losses, and external influences.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's about the Bedini charging process ?!

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Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: gyulasun on December 15, 2015, 09:52:03 PM

I find it strange that the inventor did not seem to care about actually ruining a battery with his suggested capacitor charge-discharge circuit applied, and dealt with only energy 'disappearance' in that process as "the sensation".
He should have considered the formation of lead sulphate, maybe he did and did not care... we will never know.
Thanks for your time to deal with this.

Hi Lanca,

Regarding your earlier reference (EP38218568) on the battery-/condensator-grid: I think its topic (due to the need for switching off the capacitor at zero crossing of the AC wave) is a bit different from what I thought on the Imris circuit and wrote in my Reply #3 but never mind, now it may not count.

Your link http://www.bticcs.com/pub.htm indeed shows an interesting product which is able to charge quasy any type of battery and extend their life time etc by the CCS technology (Computerized Charging System).
Maybe they would need to expand their marketing area to North America (of course I do not know their policy in this respect), because in this case your question on the Bedini charging process could be better answered by actual market demand and this latter would be driven by performance, presumably...   ;)

You mention the Menzer Lakhdar patent: are you aware of any practical tests done on the circuit proposed in it? What  performance it may have?

Gyula
Title: Re: Dr. Pavel Imris thesis about the "conservation of energy"
Post by: lancaIV on December 05, 2016, 09:20:09 PM

new:

and: