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Author Topic: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?  (Read 125089 times)

Offline d3x0r

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #240 on: July 06, 2016, 07:15:42 AM »
And true... low voltage at the end may be less useful in certain applications so they can only take the top 10%


I don't really know the full rating of power on laptop batteries... do they exclude a minimum margin?


My Chevy Volt only uses the top 60% of the charge as 100% of what it can use to drive distance... so if they say the Amp-Hours for that is that the 60% used/useful?  Or the 100% of the battery?


Even giving a margin of limiting to useful range.... it's pretty good. 


and if in a process it can be stacked thinner yet, it might have potential... and yes; maybe RMS does present an overly energetic excitement?  Maybe he IS that excited? Maybe just easily excited?  It's certainly more enterintaining to learn his progress from that than a dull somber monotone voice.


------------
edit: I hear echos ' but it's not supposed to be entertaining, if it's valid scientific presentation submitted for peer review' which it can't be; and should be?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #241 on: July 06, 2016, 07:22:29 AM »

Ended after several edits with...

You've got the gift of gab don't you?  Somehow you find the longest way to put the fewest words together?  Maybe they become numb like glancing over paragraphs in a book that drones on? *shrug*  Just taking shots in the dark, nothing personal, I don't even know you.[/size]


*Shrug*


-------------
Edit : Uhmm... he takes the high current and high voltage and low current and low voltage and makes a trapazoid and yes it's a better guess because there is a dip in the middle... but with just a few subdivisions it's pretty close to the integral even minus a chunk, which is missing less in that sum than what he's chopping off the end of it would fill....

No he doesn't make a trapezoid in the clip I am talking about.

Here is the clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-aOPQ9_MyM

"A Perspective On The B Type EESD"

My comments:

Robert Murray-Smith In your clip <A Perspective On The C type EESD> you encourage your viewers to make a proper energy measurement by multiplying the current times the voltage times the time slice. In your clip <A Perspective On The B type EESD> You make the totally unbelievable error of measuring the current but not measuring the voltage output of your cell over time and then calculating the total energy output and then converting that into equivalent ampere-hours at 3.8 volts to put yourself on a level playing field with the lithium-ion battery.

You actually have not made a case for a higher energy to weight ratio for your compounds as compared to the compounds in a lithium-ion battery.  Your measurement error for the weighing of your materials is roughly +/-25%.  You have exaggerated the amount of measured energy in your cell by perhaps 5X to 8X.   Combine the exaggeration in the energy content with the error tolerance in your weight measurement and you have nothing.   You make the almost unbelievable error of not measuring the voltage output of your cell over time and then calculating the total energy output and then converting that into equivalent ampere-hours at 3.8 volts to put yourself on a level playing field with the lithium-ion battery.  So your clip is no good and you should take it down and redo it properly this time.

-----------------------------------------------------

So why don't you take the time to watch the clip and tell me if Robert Murray-Smith is making a mistake or not.  I would like to hear your opinion.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #242 on: July 06, 2016, 07:35:23 AM »
No he doesn't make a trapezoid in the clip I am talking about.

Here is the clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-aOPQ9_MyM

"A Perspective On The B Type EESD"

My comments:

Robert Murray-Smith In your clip <A Perspective On The C type EESD> you encourage your viewers to make a proper energy measurement by multiplying the current times the voltage times the time slice. In your clip <A Perspective On The B type EESD> You make the totally unbelievable error of measuring the current but not measuring the voltage output of your cell over time and then calculating the total energy output and then converting that into equivalent ampere-hours at 3.8 volts to put yourself on a level playing field with the lithium-ion battery.

You actually have not made a case for a higher energy to weight ratio for your compounds as compared to the compounds in a lithium-ion battery.  Your measurement error for the weighing of your materials is roughly +/-25%.  You have exaggerated the amount of measured energy in your cell by perhaps 5X to 8X.   Combine the exaggeration in the energy content with the error tolerance in your weight measurement and you have nothing.   You make the almost unbelievable error of not measuring the voltage output of your cell over time and then calculating the total energy output and then converting that into equivalent ampere-hours at 3.8 volts to put yourself on a level playing field with the lithium-ion battery.  So your clip is no good and you should take it down and redo it properly this time.

-----------------------------------------------------

So why don't you take the time to watch the clip and tell me if Robert Murray-Smith is making a mistake or not.  I would like to hear your opinion.

"by perhaps 5X to 8X. "  you have presented no basis of that[/size]

ya until back at the math... https://youtu.be/W-aOPQ9_MyM?t=20m11s  ... "that allows us to make a straight line at the top" which makes it a trapazoid.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #243 on: July 06, 2016, 07:42:45 AM »
"by perhaps 5X to 8X. "  you have presented no basis of that[/size]

ya until back at the math... https://youtu.be/W-aOPQ9_MyM?t=20m11s  ... "that allows us to make a straight line at the top" which makes it a trapazoid.

Watch the clip properly.  That graph where he does the trapezoid approximation is for the current only, and he is ignoring the voltage.

The basis for my estimate that he is exaggerating the energy content by 5X to 8X is that he ignores the voltage completely and the voltage is continuously decreasing.  When the voltage is low the power output is low and he completely ignores this fact.

Offline d3x0r

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #244 on: July 06, 2016, 09:19:55 AM »
Watch the clip properly.  That graph where he does the trapezoid approximation is for the current only, and he is ignoring the voltage.

The basis for my estimate that he is exaggerating the energy content by 5X to 8X is that he ignores the voltage completely and the voltage is continuously decreasing.  When the voltage is low the power output is low and he completely ignores this fact.


voltage decreases linearly with the amperage; exactly proportionate to R ... so I'm sure there's jsut ..


E = I R
P = I E
P = I I R
and I2-I1




------------
Ya okay well...


Way late now; but ya... mAh is a a rating only when you can say it's at X voltage.  Your 'b-type' EESD iddn't maintain a voltage curve very long, and fell of very linear with the current...   so you end up with a sqrt(I) on the output...  think you're about breaking even; sorry I'm not very clear....

E = IR
P = IE
P = IIR

but your R is a motor that's variable resistance depending on RPM (contact time of the brush determins time current can flow; windings have their own limitation, plus the work lost to charge and discharge the magnetic field; so definatly a variable resistance.

But you have E and I so... it's forget R

1.5 * 178  on the start (instantanous power of 267mw)
0.3 * 31 at the end (instantanous power of 9mw at the end)
138mw average...

138mw at 1.5V would be great and would give you 92mAh  ( I = P/E)
but 138mw at 0.5V is  276mAh

but in any case not sure how you would get 697mAh (at what voltage by the way? 0.3? )


(and some more musings)
(end power over end voltage to give end mah oh- right it's 31...)
9mw / 0.3V  = 30mAh

-------------
so ya pretty high estimate... but is it even if it was also 100mAh ; it's 1/45'th the sample weight?

Offline itsu

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #245 on: July 06, 2016, 12:03:00 PM »
Come on guys, grow up.

Allthough MH never will win a price for being the most diplomatic communicator, what he 99% of the time is putting down in the forums is sound.

I know it hurts when you are told in an unambiguous manner that your measurements or way of thinking is flawed, but MH almost always backs it up with
references and his knowledge he gained in his many years working in the industry.

Off course he can and will be wrong sometime, but sooner or later that will be straighten out by similar knowledgeable people who will point this out in a civiliged way.

Please take note of what he is saying and use it in your advantage instead of feeling attacked all the time.
 

Regards itsu
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 04:47:31 PM by itsu »

Offline tinman

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #246 on: July 06, 2016, 01:04:01 PM »
Brad:

You are FOS, 100%.  You are still in a state of shock because you have been given the real deal by me and it has therefore slanted what you say about me.  On the Joule Thief thread you almost went nuts because of it.

You can't deal with what I say above, and the ironic twist is when I first mentioned to you that RMS did something unbelievable you agreed with me - he discharged a capacitor and measured the current but did not measure the voltage to measure the so-called "energy" in the capacitor.   You agreed with me that that was ridiculous and went and posted on his YouTube clip to that effect.

I am no troll, and there is no such thing as the "Edison Electric car," by Edison Power and Sunvault Energy, it's preposterous nonsense.  You clearly don't know how to qualify a company, and I do.

http://www.sunvaultenergy.com/sunvault-energy-and-edison-power-company-to-build-electric-supercar/

My ass, it's total horseshit, just like what you are saying about me is total horseshit.

So you need to get over the chip on your shoulder and if this is your hobby, then work at it.  You have learned more about electronics in the past three months than you learned in the past six years and you damn well know it.  And I am one of the primary reasons for that happening.

MileHigh

MH,it dose not matter if your wrong or right,the way you go about things-it's like your on the hunt for another victim.
Everything you !think! you know,must not be argued against--we seen such in the JT thread.

For instance,the schematics below.
You say !your! JT circuit(1) is the most efficient,and i say circuit 2 is more efficient
I give you a very sound reason as to why circuit 2 is more efficient,and all you say is--crap,circuit 1 is more efficient--even though you have,on several occasions in other thread's,say including a battery in a circuit is a loss,when current from another source flows through that battery,and then to the load. The latest of this example,was your explanation on the 3 battery system Dave is sharing. But even when you are wrong,you insist you are right--and your latest on the IDEAL coil thread,where apparently now voltage leads current in charging a capacitance :o
Then there was your fiasco about the JFET,after i mentioned that it would be a good way to make a ultra low voltage JT-and the list go's on. Every thing i say,your right there to try and disprove it,whether you are wrong or right. You just jump straight onto everything i say,without giving any thought as to whether you are wrong or right--it's just the automatic !wrong! button pushed by you,and then you try and deal with your mistakes later on down the track,by some how turning into some one elses mistake ::)

Others can say what they like about you,but most of us here are aware of the way your work.

I have given you the opportunity to back up your claim that you could out do me on a bench,and your knowledge is far greater than mine,and every time you back down,and we hear that famous call--I dont build ;D

If all your knowledge on the way coils react and work is correct and spot on,and your circuit knowledge is far greater than mine,then take me on--a simple JT is well within anyone's means--stop being lazy,and back up your claim.



Brad

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #247 on: July 06, 2016, 02:48:24 PM »
d3xOr:

Okay, I take it from your comments that you now agree that Robert Murray-Smith made an unacceptable mistake because he completely ignored the voltage when he was supposedly making an energy measurement.  Honestly, it's beyond belief but it is the case.  I will repeat to you again, I am no troll and you should retract your statement.

itsu:

Thank you for your comments.  For sure I am not perfect but with this RMS business I started out by trying to give him some sound advice and he rejected everything I said to him.  So I looked at a few more of his clips and simply stated to him that he was wrong.

Brad:

Get over it.  It turns out that you have been more or less deceiving yourself for years and I brought some reality into the picture for you.  You are benefiting from that, and the more you spin, the more you ultimately hurt yourself.

And you are still deceiving yourself.  The nonsensical "Edison electric car" does not exist but you won't acknowledge that.  Now you are saying "apparently now voltage leads current in charging a capacitance" with respect to me which is not what I said at all.  I said to you that when you charge a capacitor with a pulse then the concept of current leading or lagging voltage does not apply.  The fact that you would mention the bloody JFET for the 30th time is both sad and comical.  Stop deceiving yourself and others like some hapless spin doctor trapped in a vortex.

I am no troll and you should retract your statement.  I yanked you out of your electronics stupor and I saw Robert Murry-Smith doing something wrong and I had the conviction to state it.

MileHigh

Offline memoryman

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #248 on: July 06, 2016, 11:05:26 PM »
My 5 cents (inflation).
I also commented on RMS's video, similar to MH. RMS replied that he agreed but did not think it mattered. 
If you think that the message is less important than the way it is delivered, than you will lose out on a lot of good info.

Offline minnie

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #249 on: July 06, 2016, 11:15:49 PM »



   I too PM'd RMS and disappointingly he didn't seem to "get it" about the
  declining voltage.
   I really like the fellow and he's done some inspiring videos.
         John.

Offline memoryman

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #250 on: July 06, 2016, 11:43:18 PM »


   I too PM'd RMS and disappointingly he didn't seem to "get it" about the
  declining voltage.
   I really like the fellow and he's done some inspiring videos.
         John.
My opinion of RMS is a lot lower now.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #251 on: July 06, 2016, 11:58:11 PM »
I will just repeat what I already said for the sake of dramatizing the point:  If you try to measure the energy content in a capacitor and you fail to measure the voltage during the discharge cycle you become the laughing stock of your class and any astute 12-year-old science fair nerd would also point out the same mistake.

It's so outrageous that you have to wonder.  It's simply unacceptable and the non-technical RMS sycophants that comment on his YouTube clips seem to be blissfully unaware.

I think I know the genesis for him making the video.  Note he made the video about a month ago.  Well, about two months ago a Disquis poster named "redrooster" stepped in to defend Robert Murray-Smith on the article "EESD: Robert Murray-Smith" on the Revolution Green web site.

http://revolution-green.com/eesd-electronic-storage-device/

I strongly suspected that RMS made himself a sock puppet named "redrooster" and at least one other person agreed with me.  So I had a debate with "redrooster" two months ago and simply repeated the same points that I had made to RMS on his YouTube clips seven months ago.  I can hypothesize that that steamed him up and he got mad and made the clip about me a month ago.  It's only a guess.

Sample of "redrooster:"

Quote
Its a commercial product that he is making and just because you think he should divulge everything to you,you go and throw a tantrum.lol Ive been making these graphene EESDs from RMS videos and If you had the brains to make some yourself you would see that they are indeed a breakthrough in battery technology.Robert made a video pointing out your unreasonable demands for info on his commercial product. Why dont you hassle NASA with the same augument and see how far you get. He has deleted all the comments and banned you for being an unreasonable idiot.

My response:

Quote
What you are saying is nonsense and I would not be surprised if you are an RMS sock puppet.  I did not ask him to "divulge everything" that is a ridiculous thing for you to say.  I asked him to show credible measurements to back up his claims, which would divulge nothing at all. Don't give me your "if you had the brains" crap, that's the same MO that I have seen from RMS before and that's why I suspect that you are RMS.  You have not shown any kind of breakthrough whatsoever because you have not convincingly demonstrated any increased energy density by weight or by volume that I am aware of.  I did not make any unreasonable demands at all, I simply asked for measurements to back up your data. And of course we both know the clip where you made the "measurement" where you measured current but did not measure any voltage is an embarrassing farce that would get you laughed out of any kind of academic presentation of your results.  It's so bad that one suspects your motivations.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.  To appropriate an expression from black culture, I am giving him the side-eye.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #252 on: July 07, 2016, 12:44:46 AM »
Just for fun, this is the clip that started the "beef."

"Edison Power - Tap Charging The EESD"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMiny6uma58

Not the clip is only 1:42 so it is very short.

In the clip RMS "tap charges" his capacitors by briefly connecting them to a 37-volt power supply.  For another device he "tap charges" it by connecting it to a 50-volt power supply.  I am no expert in supercapacitors but I do know that a typical maximum voltage for a supercapacitor is somewhere around three or four volts.  If the voltage is higher than that you damage the device.

So I politely posted on his YouTube clip that he might be at serious risk of damaging his devices by over-voltaging them.  I got a very rude reply.  I posted again saying that I thought that he would risk damaging his device by "punching a hole" though it because the output capacitor in his bench power supply would be at 37-volts and it would "fight" with the discharged supercapacitor at nearly zero volts.  I just got more rude and ugly comments from him and then he deleted the entire conversation.  He never discussed anything technical.  I was very surprised, and honestly bewildered.

There are two bizarre exchanges in the comments on the clip:  (possibly more)

1) zeropointfuel:  I've been working with pulse charging for many years I wonder how well your capacitors would work  in series up to 160 volts or so do you think it could handle this through current in series. most of the loss I deal with in a pulse motor configuration is due to the internal resistance of the battery. :) 
Robert Murray-Smith:  +zeropointfuel the little device you saw was tested to 120 volts mate
My comments:  "Tested to 120 volts" makes no sense at all.  What is going on?

2) Abdulla Qasem:  +Robert Murray-Smith Really impressive , how much current can the credit card (2000F eesd) provide ? . I hope all goes well with your project.
Robert Murray-Smith:  +Abdulla Qasem it has a voltage of 2.15 - so you can work out the coulombs and joules mate and from that get current flow
My comments:  What?  No, in fact you cannot work out the maximum current flow from the coulombs and joules.

And this guy is supposed to develop a virtual electric car?

Offline tinman

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #253 on: July 07, 2016, 01:31:49 AM »
I will just repeat what I already said for the sake of dramatizing the point:  If you try to measure the energy content in a capacitor and you fail to measure the voltage during the discharge cycle you become the laughing stock of your class and any astute 12-year-old science fair nerd would also point out the same mistake.

It's so outrageous that you have to wonder.  It's simply unacceptable and the non-technical RMS sycophants that comment on his YouTube clips seem to be blissfully unaware.

I think I know the genesis for him making the video.  Note he made the video about a month ago.  Well, about two months ago a Disquis poster named "redrooster" stepped in to defend Robert Murray-Smith on the article "EESD: Robert Murray-Smith" on the Revolution Green web site.

http://revolution-green.com/eesd-electronic-storage-device/

I strongly suspected that RMS made himself a sock puppet named "redrooster" and at least one other person agreed with me.  So I had a debate with "redrooster" two months ago and simply repeated the same points that I had made to RMS on his YouTube clips seven months ago.  I can hypothesize that that steamed him up and he got mad and made the clip about me a month ago.  It's only a guess.

Sample of "redrooster:"

My response:

That's the way the cookie crumbles.  To appropriate an expression from black culture, I am giving him the side-eye.


Quote: What you are saying is nonsense and I would not be surprised if you are an RMS sock puppet.

And there you go,that is the attitude that gets you into hot water all the time MH.
There is no !Mr nice guy! with you,it's just all out war on those trying to better the world.

It is always the automatic !bullshit! button  with you,when some one presents something that dose not conform to !your! way of doing thing's,or go's against your beliefs.
Thats pretty ironic coming from some one who dose nothing but talk.

You think you have taught me better than what i find through experiment's,then prove it-->how are you going to do that?.
You cant--all you have is words.


Brad.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #254 on: July 07, 2016, 04:26:44 AM »

Quote: What you are saying is nonsense and I would not be surprised if you are an RMS sock puppet.

And there you go,that is the attitude that gets you into hot water all the time MH.
There is no !Mr nice guy! with you,it's just all out war on those trying to better the world.

It is always the automatic !bullshit! button  with you,when some one presents something that dose not conform to !your! way of doing thing's,or go's against your beliefs.
Thats pretty ironic coming from some one who dose nothing but talk.

You think you have taught me better than what i find through experiment's,then prove it-->how are you going to do that?.
You cant--all you have is words.

Brad.

No you don't Brad.

At this point I am sick of this bullshit from you.  I approached RMS very politely and right away he started calling me an "idiot" and "stupid."  Those are the facts.  You get that chip off your shoulder.  If you kept on making mistakes all the time, then it was damn good medicine for you to tell you the truth.

And you are too scared to respond to what I have told you several times now; you learned more about electronics in the past three months that you have learned in the past six years - mostly due to me.   You have had more interesting discussions on here in the past three months than the past six years, because of me.

And with respect to RMS, I clearly have the moral high ground.  Do you get that?  If you had any guts you would say that too.

To be brutally honest, and RMS deserves some brutal honesty, it looks like he just might be another guy that wouldn't be able to answer an electronics question about a circuit that consists of a power supply and one single component.  His electric supercar is a bloody joke.  Only to be a fly on the wall when the half-dozen company directors were in a meeting discussing generating that press release.

And the pen is mightier than the bench - it is.  Suck on that and stop sounding like a miserable sourpus.

MileHigh