Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: nilrehob on November 14, 2015, 09:40:03 PM

Title: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 14, 2015, 09:40:03 PM
This took me by surprise!

Nine low-voltage coils in series are connected to a variac.
The sum of the EMF in the coils is ~5.5V
The yellow trace is the 10th unused coil.
The blue trace is the current measured across a 1 ohm resistor.
The purple trace is the output from the transformer.

When the output from the transformer is decreased below the EMF the current shifts and the rotor continues to run.

If You understand what’s going on please explain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RmqJ7X2dg

/Hob
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: tinman on November 14, 2015, 11:36:06 PM
This took me by surprise!

Nine low-voltage coils in series are connected to a variac.
The sum of the EMF in the coils is ~5.5V
The yellow trace is the 10th unused coil.
The blue trace is the current measured across a 1 ohm resistor.
The purple trace is the output from the transformer.

When the output from the transformer is decreased below the EMF the current shifts and the rotor continues to run.

If You understand what’s going on please explain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RmqJ7X2dg

/Hob

The magnets in your rotor is making it look like the current is shifting in phase. Your CVR is seeing two thing's-the voltage produced by the magnets on the rotor as they approach and leave the coil,and the current provided by the transformer. You can see this voltage/current relationship with the yellow trace that shows the back and forth swinging motion-this is your flywheel speeding up and slowing down.

Brad
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 15, 2015, 09:08:47 AM
Further details:

The four strands in each of the nine coils are in parallel.
The nine coils are in series.
The sum of the DC resistance in the nine coils is 2.8 ohm.
The sum of the inductance in the nine coils is 36 mH.
The coils have welding-rods as core.
The distance between coils-magnets is ~3mm.
There are 20 neo-magnets, all north.

The tenth coil is only connected to the scope as reference.

The sum of the EMF from the nine coils is 5.5V (3.9V RMS).

There is no Bedini circuit connected to any coil.

The variac secondary is connected to the nine coils.
The variac primary is connected to the grid.
The grid is 50Hz, the wheel spins at 150 RPM.

Since there are magnets and not a squirrel-cage there is no slip.
It is a synchronous motor/generator.
The wobbling is because the coils and the magnets are not that tightly coupled.
The motor has ceramic bearings.

When the variac is above EMF, the variac is running the wheel as a motor.
When the variac is below EMF, the wheel is a generator feeding the variac?

When the voltage from the variac is above the coils EMF there is positive torque.
When the voltage from the variac is below the coils EMF there should be negative torque.

Why does the wheel still run when the variac is at 2.5V RMS which is below the EMF of the coils?

/Hob
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: MileHigh on November 15, 2015, 06:17:31 PM
Quote
When the variac is above EMF, the variac is running the wheel as a motor.
When the variac is below EMF, the wheel is a generator feeding the variac?

When the voltage from the variac is above the coils EMF there is positive torque.
When the voltage from the variac is below the coils EMF there should be negative torque.

Why does the wheel still run when the variac is at 2.5V RMS which is below the EMF of the coils?

I looked at the clip and you can see how it is a synchronous motor.  However, if the rotor turns at the same speed when the variac is at 2.5 VRMS then one must assume that it is still a synchronous motor.  So in both cases assume that there is positive torque.  I am assuming that at the lower drive voltage it is easier for the rotor to "slip out" of sync with the powerline frequency.  In contrast, you can see how the rotor "bounces back and forth" on the "walls" when the drive voltage is high showing that it is locked at the synchronous drive frequency.

The real answer to your question requires a precise analysis of the timing diagram.  You appear to have the correct information and all of the required information on your scope display already.  You just have to look at the timing diagram for a complete single rotor magnet pass and analyze when positive torque, no torque, and negative torque is applied to the rotor.  Do the timing analysis for both the higher drive voltage and the low drive voltage.  It's interesting because the timings are different for the two cases, and presumably in both cases the rotor turns synchronously with the AC mains excitation.

You don't have to be high tech here.  Just take a pencil and some graph paper and sketch out the recorded waveforms and then also sketch out waveform that shows the position of the passing rotor magnet and also sketch out a virtual waveform for the torque on the passing rotor magnet.  You may need to account for more than one rotor magnet and more than one drive coil in your timing analysis.  You need to analyze this yourself, step by step.

If you do this properly for both cases, you should arrive at the conclusion that in both cases there is a net positive torque on the rotor.

It's not a "self running generator."  You are getting carried away.  Presumably in both cases the setup draws power from your AC excitation voltage source?  In both cases, some of that power draw goes into applying positive torque to the rotor to overcome friction to keep it turning.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 15, 2015, 06:24:19 PM
It's not a "self running generator."  You are getting carried away.  Presumably in both cases the setup draws power from your AC excitation voltage source?  In both cases, some of that power draw goes into applying positive torque to the rotor to overcome friction to keep it turning.

Not carried away, just surprised & confused :-)

It is obvious that the motor consumes power, the voltage and the current have almost the same phase, but why/how does it work?
The variac has the same phase as the EMF but lower voltage, that’s my puzzle.

/Hob
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: MileHigh on November 15, 2015, 06:36:28 PM
The magnets in your rotor is making it look like the current is shifting in phase. Your CVR is seeing two thing's-the voltage produced by the magnets on the rotor as they approach and leave the coil,and the current provided by the transformer. You can see this voltage/current relationship with the yellow trace that shows the back and forth swinging motion-this is your flywheel speeding up and slowing down.

Brad

What you are trying to say is that the CVR sees current, and that current is dependent on the EMF generated on the coils from the passing rotor magnets, and the applied voltage from the variac.  I have said this before, you need to start using the language of electronics properly.  We should not have to have a "Tinman decoder ring" handy to unscramble your words to get what you are really trying to say.

Look again at this sentence from you:  "Your CVR is seeing two thing's-the voltage produced by the magnets on the rotor as they approach and leave the coil."  You are stating that a current viewing resistor sees voltage.

Quote
You can see this voltage/current relationship with the yellow trace that shows the back and forth swinging motion-this is your flywheel speeding up and slowing down.

Nope, that is completely wrong.  Nilrehob clearly states in his video that the coil connected to the yellow trace is just a sensor coil with nothing connected to it.  Therefore that coil gives you two pieces of information: (1) the approximate amplitude and phase of the EMF generated in the drive coils due to the passing rotor magnets, and (2) the position of the rotor magnets as a function of time.  Knowing the position of the rotor magnets as a function of time is critical information that is needed to construct the two timing diagrams that I make reference to in my previous posting.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: MileHigh on November 15, 2015, 06:42:24 PM
the voltage and the current have almost the same phase, but why/how does it work?
The variac has the same phase as the EMF but lower voltage, that’s my puzzle.

I will just repeat that the answer lies in constructing a proper timing diagram and analyzing that timing diagram.  The world of electronics is all about the timing of events, and the way to see those events and understand them is to construct a timing diagram.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: Void on November 15, 2015, 07:08:57 PM
Nilrehob, it is not a self running motor/generator if you still have it connected to the variac. ;)
I suspect this may be why you got several thumbs down on your youtube video.
If it were self running you would be able to disconnect the variac and the motor/generator would still run.
Try disconnecting the variac and if it doesn't continue to run, then you will know for certain it is not self running. :)



Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: verpies on November 15, 2015, 07:15:40 PM
It is obvious that the motor consumes power, the voltage and the current have almost the same phase
Can you graph that on your scope by creating a Math trace that multiplies Ch3 (voltage across your AC power supply - the variac) by Ch2 (voltage across your current sensing resistor) ?

As you speed up/slow down your rotor, the Math waveform excursions above the zero line will indicate electric energy flow from your variac to the motor ...and the excursions below the zero line will indicate energy flow from your motor back to the variac.  Their sum is the total power.

P.S.
Avoid the 500ns/div horizontal time base setting on your scope when you enable a Ch3*Ch2 math trace.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: verpies on November 15, 2015, 07:23:33 PM
Nilrehob, it is not a self running motor/generator if you still have it connected to the variac. ;)
I think he is only wondering how the current can flow "uphill" when the instantaneous voltage generated by his AC power supply is lower than the EMF generated by his coils.

The most likely answer: The collective EMF of his 9 coils is not in phase with the EMF sensed across his 10th coil.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: pulp on November 15, 2015, 07:52:04 PM
Very nice and professional build, very impressive. You did allmost what i'm trying to build right now from few time but pitty i'm not so professional electrician like you so it is very hard to do even what you allready did.
Im working on this idea:
http://overunity.com/15885/the-mystery-of-teslas-369-and-freemasons-secret-finally-solved/#.Vkix-79c95Q (http://overunity.com/15885/the-mystery-of-teslas-369-and-freemasons-secret-finally-solved/#.Vkix-79c95Q)
You are very close to self sustain just very little modification on your build will make the mirracle. You will defeat the Lenz effect and achieve infinity energy. You just have to connect some of the coils output to the input where the variac is. I mean like descriebed in my post - the 3,6 and 9 coils are not needed for the rotation of the rotor so they can be so called pick-up coils so they can collect energy and self sustain the system. You don't need variac or any transformer at all just this coils can be used for this. The system can be started by just turning the rotor by hand and then the anti-lenz will keep it self accelerate. Good luck friend.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 15, 2015, 09:32:37 PM
Nilrehob, it is not a self running motor/generator if you still have it connected to the variac. ;)
I suspect this may be why you got several thumbs down on your youtube video.
If it were self running you would be able to disconnect the variac and the motor/generator would still run.
Try disconnecting the variac and if it doesn't continue to run, then you will know for certain it is not self running. :)

Yes, you're right, but they don't read very well, I did put a question-mark at the end, not an exclamation-mark ;-)
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 15, 2015, 09:34:56 PM
I will just repeat that the answer lies in constructing a proper timing diagram and analyzing that timing diagram.  The world of electronics is all about the timing of events, and the way to see those events and understand them is to construct a timing diagram.

I don't think timing has anything to do with it, the yellow trace shows that it has the same phase, or i misunderstand you.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 15, 2015, 09:37:21 PM
Can you graph that on your scope by creating a Math trace that multiplies Ch3 (voltage across your AC power supply - the variac) by Ch2 (voltage across your current sensing resistor) ?

As you speed up/slow down your rotor, the Math waveform excursions above the zero line will indicate electric energy flow from your variac to the motor ...and the excursions below the zero line will indicate energy flow from your motor back to the variac.  Their sum is the total power.

P.S.
Avoid the 500ns/div horizontal time base setting on your scope when you enable a Ch3*Ch2 math trace.

I’ve done that, may do a video, i also have the area calculated, which is more or less constant.
But i still wonder how voltage from the variac "beats" emf from the coils.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 15, 2015, 09:38:45 PM
I think he is only wondering how the current can flow "uphill" when the instantaneous voltage generated by his AC power supply is higher than the EMF generated by his coils.

The most likely answer: The collective EMF of his 9 coils is not in phase with the EMF sensed across his 10th coil.

Yes, that’s my question, but as far as i can see they are in phase.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: verpies on November 15, 2015, 09:45:55 PM
Yes, that’s my question, but as far as i can see they are in phase.
But, your video does not show that.
Perhaps you could show us scopeshots of the EMF across your 9 coils connected in series (without the variac connected) and the EMF across that 10th coil.

...or wire a DPDT switch into the wire supplying your 9 coils to do that change "on the fly".
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: verpies on November 15, 2015, 09:51:28 PM
I’ve done that, may do a video, i also have the area calculated, which is more or less constant.
..and you begrudged us such a treat ?!

But i still wonder how voltage from the variac "beats" emf from the coils.
It shouldn't ...if the EMF from the 10th coil is representative of the EMF from the other 9 coils connected in series.
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 15, 2015, 10:01:18 PM
..and you begrudged us such a treat ?!

I just did it a minute ago ;-)
But I’m out of time now, hopefully I have more time tomorrow night.

/Hob
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 16, 2015, 02:03:36 PM
Update first showing the EMF and then consumed energy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPs9Xa2jpG0

/Hob
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: verpies on November 16, 2015, 05:42:33 PM
Update first showing the EMF and then consumed energy:
Thanks for the power waveform.  I could not read the statistic from this math waveform but if it is an integral of it then the result is in Watt*seconds which are Joules (units of energy).
If the statistic displays the average of this waveform then it should be read as Watts (units of power).

However you video did not show us the phase difference between the EMF of the 9 coils and the EMF of the 10th coil, because I asked about this:
Perhaps you could show us scopeshots of the EMF across your 9 coils connected in series (without the variac connected) and the EMF across that 10th coil.
...and your video showed this:

"scopeshots of the EMF across your 9 coils connected in series (without the variac connected) and the EMF across that 10th coil, with the EMF of the variac added"
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 16, 2015, 07:16:35 PM
Thanks for the power waveform.  I could not read the statistic from this math waveform but if it is an integral of it then the result is in Watt*seconds which are Joules (units of energy).
If the statistic displays the average of this waveform then it should be read as Watts (units of power).

However you video did not show us the phase difference between the EMF of the 9 coils and the EMF of the 10th coil, because I asked about this:...and your video showed this:

"scopeshots of the EMF across your 9 coils connected in series (without the variac connected) and the EMF across that 10th coil, with the EMF of the variac added"

The rotor has 20 magnets and the stator has 10 evenly distributed coils, so all coils should have the same phase.

/Hob
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: verpies on November 16, 2015, 07:29:42 PM
The rotor has 20 magnets and the stator has 10 evenly distributed coils, so all coils should have the same phase.
Should...
Do you know what usually happens when you assUme ?
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: nilrehob on November 16, 2015, 09:10:38 PM
Should...
Do you know what usually happens when you assUme ?

:-)
Title: Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
Post by: Magluvin on November 17, 2015, 12:29:09 AM
Should...
Do you know what usually happens when you assUme ?

Well if everything was made and set perfect, they should all be in phase.  Hob can test each coil in comparison to the other ones individually to see if they are in phase with each other. Then if not, find the one that is most or least or in the middle, of out of phase group, and adjust the others to be in concert.  My Lasersaber like replication of his tiny motor that runs a long time on a 10uf cap, has issues with what we are talking about. Not just coil and magnet positions, but the strength and orientation of the magnet pole centers, of the magnets themselves, are off.

Had some n50 neo disks that one side of the radius had big problems with pole centers. Some were good. some off. some way off. screwed up everything.

Mags