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Author Topic: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?  (Read 8472 times)

Offline nilrehob

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My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« on: November 14, 2015, 09:40:03 PM »
This took me by surprise!

Nine low-voltage coils in series are connected to a variac.
The sum of the EMF in the coils is ~5.5V
The yellow trace is the 10th unused coil.
The blue trace is the current measured across a 1 ohm resistor.
The purple trace is the output from the transformer.

When the output from the transformer is decreased below the EMF the current shifts and the rotor continues to run.

If You understand what’s going on please explain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RmqJ7X2dg

/Hob

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My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« on: November 14, 2015, 09:40:03 PM »

Offline tinman

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2015, 11:36:06 PM »
This took me by surprise!

Nine low-voltage coils in series are connected to a variac.
The sum of the EMF in the coils is ~5.5V
The yellow trace is the 10th unused coil.
The blue trace is the current measured across a 1 ohm resistor.
The purple trace is the output from the transformer.

When the output from the transformer is decreased below the EMF the current shifts and the rotor continues to run.

If You understand what’s going on please explain!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RmqJ7X2dg

/Hob

The magnets in your rotor is making it look like the current is shifting in phase. Your CVR is seeing two thing's-the voltage produced by the magnets on the rotor as they approach and leave the coil,and the current provided by the transformer. You can see this voltage/current relationship with the yellow trace that shows the back and forth swinging motion-this is your flywheel speeding up and slowing down.

Brad

Offline nilrehob

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2015, 09:08:47 AM »
Further details:

The four strands in each of the nine coils are in parallel.
The nine coils are in series.
The sum of the DC resistance in the nine coils is 2.8 ohm.
The sum of the inductance in the nine coils is 36 mH.
The coils have welding-rods as core.
The distance between coils-magnets is ~3mm.
There are 20 neo-magnets, all north.

The tenth coil is only connected to the scope as reference.

The sum of the EMF from the nine coils is 5.5V (3.9V RMS).

There is no Bedini circuit connected to any coil.

The variac secondary is connected to the nine coils.
The variac primary is connected to the grid.
The grid is 50Hz, the wheel spins at 150 RPM.

Since there are magnets and not a squirrel-cage there is no slip.
It is a synchronous motor/generator.
The wobbling is because the coils and the magnets are not that tightly coupled.
The motor has ceramic bearings.

When the variac is above EMF, the variac is running the wheel as a motor.
When the variac is below EMF, the wheel is a generator feeding the variac?

When the voltage from the variac is above the coils EMF there is positive torque.
When the voltage from the variac is below the coils EMF there should be negative torque.

Why does the wheel still run when the variac is at 2.5V RMS which is below the EMF of the coils?

/Hob

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2015, 09:08:47 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 06:17:31 PM »
Quote
When the variac is above EMF, the variac is running the wheel as a motor.
When the variac is below EMF, the wheel is a generator feeding the variac?

When the voltage from the variac is above the coils EMF there is positive torque.
When the voltage from the variac is below the coils EMF there should be negative torque.

Why does the wheel still run when the variac is at 2.5V RMS which is below the EMF of the coils?

I looked at the clip and you can see how it is a synchronous motor.  However, if the rotor turns at the same speed when the variac is at 2.5 VRMS then one must assume that it is still a synchronous motor.  So in both cases assume that there is positive torque.  I am assuming that at the lower drive voltage it is easier for the rotor to "slip out" of sync with the powerline frequency.  In contrast, you can see how the rotor "bounces back and forth" on the "walls" when the drive voltage is high showing that it is locked at the synchronous drive frequency.

The real answer to your question requires a precise analysis of the timing diagram.  You appear to have the correct information and all of the required information on your scope display already.  You just have to look at the timing diagram for a complete single rotor magnet pass and analyze when positive torque, no torque, and negative torque is applied to the rotor.  Do the timing analysis for both the higher drive voltage and the low drive voltage.  It's interesting because the timings are different for the two cases, and presumably in both cases the rotor turns synchronously with the AC mains excitation.

You don't have to be high tech here.  Just take a pencil and some graph paper and sketch out the recorded waveforms and then also sketch out waveform that shows the position of the passing rotor magnet and also sketch out a virtual waveform for the torque on the passing rotor magnet.  You may need to account for more than one rotor magnet and more than one drive coil in your timing analysis.  You need to analyze this yourself, step by step.

If you do this properly for both cases, you should arrive at the conclusion that in both cases there is a net positive torque on the rotor.

It's not a "self running generator."  You are getting carried away.  Presumably in both cases the setup draws power from your AC excitation voltage source?  In both cases, some of that power draw goes into applying positive torque to the rotor to overcome friction to keep it turning.

Offline nilrehob

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 06:24:19 PM »
It's not a "self running generator."  You are getting carried away.  Presumably in both cases the setup draws power from your AC excitation voltage source?  In both cases, some of that power draw goes into applying positive torque to the rotor to overcome friction to keep it turning.

Not carried away, just surprised & confused :-)

It is obvious that the motor consumes power, the voltage and the current have almost the same phase, but why/how does it work?
The variac has the same phase as the EMF but lower voltage, that’s my puzzle.

/Hob

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 06:24:19 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2015, 06:36:28 PM »
The magnets in your rotor is making it look like the current is shifting in phase. Your CVR is seeing two thing's-the voltage produced by the magnets on the rotor as they approach and leave the coil,and the current provided by the transformer. You can see this voltage/current relationship with the yellow trace that shows the back and forth swinging motion-this is your flywheel speeding up and slowing down.

Brad

What you are trying to say is that the CVR sees current, and that current is dependent on the EMF generated on the coils from the passing rotor magnets, and the applied voltage from the variac.  I have said this before, you need to start using the language of electronics properly.  We should not have to have a "Tinman decoder ring" handy to unscramble your words to get what you are really trying to say.

Look again at this sentence from you:  "Your CVR is seeing two thing's-the voltage produced by the magnets on the rotor as they approach and leave the coil."  You are stating that a current viewing resistor sees voltage.

Quote
You can see this voltage/current relationship with the yellow trace that shows the back and forth swinging motion-this is your flywheel speeding up and slowing down.

Nope, that is completely wrong.  Nilrehob clearly states in his video that the coil connected to the yellow trace is just a sensor coil with nothing connected to it.  Therefore that coil gives you two pieces of information: (1) the approximate amplitude and phase of the EMF generated in the drive coils due to the passing rotor magnets, and (2) the position of the rotor magnets as a function of time.  Knowing the position of the rotor magnets as a function of time is critical information that is needed to construct the two timing diagrams that I make reference to in my previous posting.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2015, 06:42:24 PM »
the voltage and the current have almost the same phase, but why/how does it work?
The variac has the same phase as the EMF but lower voltage, that’s my puzzle.

I will just repeat that the answer lies in constructing a proper timing diagram and analyzing that timing diagram.  The world of electronics is all about the timing of events, and the way to see those events and understand them is to construct a timing diagram.

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2015, 06:42:24 PM »
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Offline Void

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2015, 07:08:57 PM »
Nilrehob, it is not a self running motor/generator if you still have it connected to the variac. ;)
I suspect this may be why you got several thumbs down on your youtube video.
If it were self running you would be able to disconnect the variac and the motor/generator would still run.
Try disconnecting the variac and if it doesn't continue to run, then you will know for certain it is not self running. :)




Offline verpies

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2015, 07:15:40 PM »
It is obvious that the motor consumes power, the voltage and the current have almost the same phase
Can you graph that on your scope by creating a Math trace that multiplies Ch3 (voltage across your AC power supply - the variac) by Ch2 (voltage across your current sensing resistor) ?

As you speed up/slow down your rotor, the Math waveform excursions above the zero line will indicate electric energy flow from your variac to the motor ...and the excursions below the zero line will indicate energy flow from your motor back to the variac.  Their sum is the total power.

P.S.
Avoid the 500ns/div horizontal time base setting on your scope when you enable a Ch3*Ch2 math trace.

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2015, 07:15:40 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2015, 07:23:33 PM »
Nilrehob, it is not a self running motor/generator if you still have it connected to the variac. ;)
I think he is only wondering how the current can flow "uphill" when the instantaneous voltage generated by his AC power supply is lower than the EMF generated by his coils.

The most likely answer: The collective EMF of his 9 coils is not in phase with the EMF sensed across his 10th coil.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:39:02 PM by verpies »

Offline pulp

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2015, 07:52:04 PM »
Very nice and professional build, very impressive. You did allmost what i'm trying to build right now from few time but pitty i'm not so professional electrician like you so it is very hard to do even what you allready did.
Im working on this idea:
http://overunity.com/15885/the-mystery-of-teslas-369-and-freemasons-secret-finally-solved/#.Vkix-79c95Q
You are very close to self sustain just very little modification on your build will make the mirracle. You will defeat the Lenz effect and achieve infinity energy. You just have to connect some of the coils output to the input where the variac is. I mean like descriebed in my post - the 3,6 and 9 coils are not needed for the rotation of the rotor so they can be so called pick-up coils so they can collect energy and self sustain the system. You don't need variac or any transformer at all just this coils can be used for this. The system can be started by just turning the rotor by hand and then the anti-lenz will keep it self accelerate. Good luck friend.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2015, 07:52:04 PM »
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Offline nilrehob

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 09:32:37 PM »
Nilrehob, it is not a self running motor/generator if you still have it connected to the variac. ;)
I suspect this may be why you got several thumbs down on your youtube video.
If it were self running you would be able to disconnect the variac and the motor/generator would still run.
Try disconnecting the variac and if it doesn't continue to run, then you will know for certain it is not self running. :)

Yes, you're right, but they don't read very well, I did put a question-mark at the end, not an exclamation-mark ;-)

Offline nilrehob

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2015, 09:34:56 PM »
I will just repeat that the answer lies in constructing a proper timing diagram and analyzing that timing diagram.  The world of electronics is all about the timing of events, and the way to see those events and understand them is to construct a timing diagram.

I don't think timing has anything to do with it, the yellow trace shows that it has the same phase, or i misunderstand you.

Offline nilrehob

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2015, 09:37:21 PM »
Can you graph that on your scope by creating a Math trace that multiplies Ch3 (voltage across your AC power supply - the variac) by Ch2 (voltage across your current sensing resistor) ?

As you speed up/slow down your rotor, the Math waveform excursions above the zero line will indicate electric energy flow from your variac to the motor ...and the excursions below the zero line will indicate energy flow from your motor back to the variac.  Their sum is the total power.

P.S.
Avoid the 500ns/div horizontal time base setting on your scope when you enable a Ch3*Ch2 math trace.

I’ve done that, may do a video, i also have the area calculated, which is more or less constant.
But i still wonder how voltage from the variac "beats" emf from the coils.

Offline nilrehob

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Re: My 1st Selfrunning Generator?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2015, 09:38:45 PM »
I think he is only wondering how the current can flow "uphill" when the instantaneous voltage generated by his AC power supply is higher than the EMF generated by his coils.

The most likely answer: The collective EMF of his 9 coils is not in phase with the EMF sensed across his 10th coil.

Yes, that’s my question, but as far as i can see they are in phase.

 

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