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Author Topic: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)  (Read 198787 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Blast from the past from JLN and Steorn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqAF_c5ThoI

When you hear the big buzzing sound the coil is doing electrical-to-mechanical work to make that happen - it is exporting power to the outside world.

Note how the rise time of the current waveform increases significantly (the slope decreases) when the coil is doing real world work.   AKA, "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage."

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Offline poynt99

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Well, thats the problem with words, they can be explained differently as one had originally intended, if not selected carefully, like in this case.

What i was trying to say was that it looks like the magnets (fields) are inducing this "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage"
against the power needed to drive the coil.

So at that instance, this "negative-induced voltage" seems stronger then the driving power for the rotor (otherwise we would not "see" the effects
of this "negative-induced voltage"), but it does not mean that "the rotor seems to be putting more energy back into the system than it takes to run it"

Itsu

Thanks for clearing that up Itsu.  ;)

That makes sense.

Offline gotoluc

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Blast from the past from JLN and Steorn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqAF_c5ThoI

When you hear the big buzzing sound the coil is doing electrical-to-mechanical work to make that happen - it is exporting power to the outside world.

Note how the rise time of the current waveform increases significantly (the slope decreases) when the coil is doing real world work.   AKA, "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage."

Hi MH,

this is indeed an interesting demo and effect. However, I don't think it's relevant to what is being tested here as I'm quite sure the effect demonstrated in JLN video you posted is due to a rise in inductance which occurs when a magnet approaches the Finemet Nanocrystalline toroid cores which were used in the Orbo experiment.

So I don't think you have the answer.

Luc


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Offline MileHigh

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No, if anything, the presence of an external magnetic field should interfere with the core material's normal domain flipping and effectively reduce the inductance and therefore make the current waveform rise more quickly.

For some strange reason JLN states, "When the lag of the current is max, here is the angle where the coil must be energized by the controller."  He is looking for the best performance of that strange pulse motor demoed by Steorn, and to get that all that you would really want would be to energize the coil a smidgen before TDC so that it "disappears" for the second half of the rotor magnet fly-by.  So he seems to be off in the clouds, something that has happened before with him.

He is simply not realizing that the current is rising more slowly because of the motoring effect where the magnet is seriously vibrating due to the pulsing coil.  It takes power to make the magnet vibrate, and we can hear it in the clip.  That power is coming from the coil itself.

The moral of the story is this:  For any pulse motor where you are using a fixed pulse timing with a constant supply voltage, if the coil is going to push on a rotor to make it spin or do some kind of action that exports power to the outside world, then when that happens the average power consumption of the coil will go down, not up.  With no power being exported to the outside world, and ignoring the back spike, the coil does nothing except produce waste heat.  When the coil starts to do real work and export power to the outside world, and ignoring the back spike, then the average power consumption of the coil goes down, and that power is now split into useful work and waste heat.

Offline gotoluc

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No, if anything, the presence of an external magnetic field should interfere with the core material's normal domain flipping and effectively reduce the inductance and therefore make the current waveform rise more quickly.

Are you absolutely sure there is no possibilities of an increase in inductance when approaching a magnet to these kind of cores?

Luc

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Offline MileHigh

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Are you absolutely sure there is no possibilities of an increase in inductance when approaching a magnet to these kind of cores?

Luc

The whole point of that Steorn toroidal coil + core configuration was to be impervious to the effects of external magnetic fields and have a near-net-zero production of EMF from changing external magnetic fields.  I am not absolutely sure in the sense that you may be able to intentionally set up something that increases the inductance.  But then that is just loading the dice, right?  In a generic sense for a magnet approaching that toroidal coil + core configuration I can't see the inductance increasing.

What I am absolutely sure of is that that clip demonstrates a big honking vibratory motor powered by the pulsing toroidal coil + core.  When the current is off, there is attraction and the magnet gets pulled in.  When the current is switched on there is no attraction and the magnet goes back.  The tape/tire acts as a lossy elastic material that pulls on the magnet to keep it in place.  The bottom line is that the magnet does not vibrate for free, the power to make it vibrate comes from the coil and in the clip there is a direct correlation between the vibrating and the slower rise time of the current.  I am willing to bet you if the experiment was repeated but this time when the magnet was brought closer to the coil it did not vibrate at all, then the observed current waveform would not change or it would rise slightly faster.  It was a big honking motor effect and JLN was not aware of it.

Offline gotoluc

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In a generic sense for a magnet approaching that toroidal coil + core configuration I can't see the inductance increasing.

Okay, here is a generic test done by me demonstrating an increase of Inductance when approaching a magnet to a coil wound on a Finmet toroid core.

If you pulse a coil on a Finemet toroid and approaches a magnet the result will be a decease of current just as JLN  and myself have demonstrated.

Link to my demo done back in 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCYKChCFqk

Regards

Luc

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Offline tinman

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Well, thats the problem with words, they can be explained differently as one had originally intended, if not selected carefully, like in this case.

What i was trying to say was that it looks like the magnets (fields) are inducing this "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage"
against the power needed to drive the coil.


Itsu

Quote
So at that instance, this "negative-induced voltage" seems stronger then the driving power for the rotor (otherwise we would not "see" the effects
of this "negative-induced voltage"), but it does not mean that "the rotor seems to be putting more energy back into the system than it takes to run it"

As i said before,there is no work being done by the rotor during this !negative voltage! stage,as the circuit is open,and voltage alone is not power--as we are told often,and no power means no work being done. As the transistor or mosfet closes,then the voltage across the coil instantly becomes the same as the voltage across the supply battery--as your own test showed Itsu. With or without the rotor,the voltage across the coil remains the same during the on time.

What needs to be looked at is what can the induced magnetic field do to or change in that inductor as a whole that would lower the current required to maintain that voltage across the coil during the on time. Well one thing would be that some how(and i dont see how),the PM's field is raising the resistance of the coil,and so less current would be required to obtain the voltage across the coil-or the fact that the magnetic domains have already become some what aligned by the PM before current starts to flow through the coil. It take energy to align the domains within the core,and at the same time eddy currents are produced within the core. Without the rotor,this energy comes from your supply source,and with the rotor in place,some of this energy comes from the rotor in stead,and so less is required from the source.

Some times in life you have to make hard choices,and this is one of those times.
What i mean by this is,you now have to either believe in what you see on your bench,and work it out for your self--or you choose to believe in those that you deem apt in the art of  EEing.
I guess it's time to weigh up all the info and results presented on both sides of the fence,and start putting them into perspective,and start asking yourself questions-like
1-how can the rotor in some way reduce the P/in by more than is required to drive it in the first place?
2-How can the open circuit voltage across the battery/coil combo reduce the P/in,when the voltage across the coil remains the same with and without the rotor in play?
3- Why dose Poynts sim not show the same effect as we see with our DUT's-in that while he can show a reduction in P/in,he also gets a reduction in P/out,where as we get a reduction in P/in while maintaining or increasing the P/out when the rotor is in play. What is the one thing his sim dose not have that we do have?.
4- Why has no EE to date been able to recreate the effect without the use of PM's ?.
5- Is the inductance of the coil increasing or decreasing as the PM approaches it. This needs to be thought about very carfully,and what is taking place as the coil is switched on. The coil creates one pole at the end of the rotor,and the approaching magnet on the rotor is of the opposite pole. So is the core going to see an increase of magnetic flux at the rotor end,or a decrease-->remember,the coil has produced a magnetic field of one polarity,and the PM approaching it is of the opposite magnetic polarity. Also-will a coil with less inductance draw more current during that pulse,or less current during that pulse to that of the same coil that has a higher inductance value?.

Added
Here is something that MH wrote a few post back
Quote: No, if anything, the presence of an external magnetic field should interfere with the core material's normal domain flipping and effectively reduce the inductance and therefore make the current waveform rise more quickly.

It is interesting that we see the opposite to that,in where the current waveform rises slower when the rotor is in play.


Things to think about.

Brad

Offline tinman

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Okay, here is a generic test done by me demonstrating an increase of Inductance when approaching a magnet to a coil wound on a Finmet toroid core.

If you pulse a coil on a Finemet toroid and approaches a magnet the result will be a decease of current just as JLN  and myself have demonstrated.

Link to my demo done back in 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCYKChCFqk

Regards

Luc

Great demo Luc,and once again seems to show the opposite to what the EE guys say should happen. I will have to give this a go myself today,but use a ferrite toroid to see if the effect is the same.

Brad

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Offline MileHigh

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Okay, here is a generic test done by me demonstrating an increase of Inductance when approaching a magnet to a coil wound on a Finmet toroid core.

If you pulse a coil on a Finemet toroid and approaches a magnet the result will be a decease of current just as JLN  and myself have demonstrated.

Link to my demo done back in 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCYKChCFqk

Regards

Luc

I looked at your clip and it does appear that the inductance is increasing with the addition of the magnet.  However, it's highly unlikely that what you did in that test is directly comparable to the JLN test.  I don't get a sense that there is any motoring action in your clip, but it is a possibility.

So, motoring action will slow down the increasing current in a coil, which on the surface appears to look like increasing electrical inductance, but it's not really.  If anything, you can say that through the motoring action you have coupled to a mechanical inductor (the mass of the magnet) to the electrical inductor.  A mass in motion has the exact properties of inductance.

You apparently demonstrated increasing inductance wile adding a cylindrical magnet directly to the center axis of the toroid.  This is not directly comparable to the JLN clip.  The lesson is that you can't do one experiment and then apply the results of that experiment with a wide brush to all other situations.

In your clip, you need a schematic to allow people to make sense of what your scope display is showing.  I even made that comment on your clip in 2011.  What you are calling the back spike looks more like a damped LC resonance.  When you add the magnet, the frequency of the LC resonance decreases, which also supports the increasing inductance claim.  I hope that you learned from Verpies that going forward you need a schematic 100% of the time, no matter how simple the circuit is.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Great demo Luc,and once again seems to show the opposite to what the EE guys say should happen. I will have to give this a go myself today,but use a ferrite toroid to see if the effect is the same.

Brad

Nope, you have the same trait that Luc has where you do one experiment and believe that you have created a "rule" that applies to all other experiments and situations.  It doesn't work like that.

One more time, you think something might be amiss and the EE guys are stumped again but you apparently haven't put any serious thought into the whole thing before you made that statement.

For example, the magnet when placed in the tube could have been vibrating giving you motoring action just like in the JLN clip.  Is that increased inductance?  In a way it is, but not in the conventional sense that we are talking about.

You notice that there was a big piece of magnetic material attached to the back of the cylindrical magnet.  That may not have been saturated, just like the magnet itself may not have been saturated.  So it's possible that what was really going on was that the extra ferrite material was adding inductance through the "secondary magnetic field" path of the toroid.  That path is along the central axis of the toroid.  So you went from an "air core" to a "ferrite core" along the secondary magnetic path.  However, I think that unlikely because of the dramatic increase in measured inductance.  Nonetheless, it's still worth mentioning and putting under consideration.

For sure, the magnet may have increased the inductance because of the magnetic field influencing the domains in the crystalline core material.  However, from what I understand, "occupying" the domains in the core material normally decreases the effective inductance of the coil.  I am pretty sure that that subject has been discussed and covered three or four times over the past few years.  So, if what I am saying is indeed true, that seems to present a real problem and the mechanism would have to be properly understood and explained.

MileHigh

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Offline poynt99

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As i said before,there is no work being done by the rotor during this !negative voltage! stage,as the circuit is open,and voltage alone is not power
Someone provided an explanation about this a little while back. Guess you missed it? The "work" being done by the rotor is during the ON portion of the cycle.

Quote
With or without the rotor,the voltage across the coil remains the same during the on time.
Someone already provided an explanation as to the reason the measured voltage is the same in both cases. Did you miss that one also? Just in case, I provided a link. ;)

Quote
What needs to be looked at is what can the induced magnetic field do to or change in that inductor as a whole that would lower the current required to maintain that voltage across the coil during the on time.
Someone provided an explanation as to how and why the current is being reduced during the ON time. Surely you didn't miss that one too?

Quote
What i mean by this is,you now have to either believe in what you see on your bench,and work it out for your self--or you choose to believe in those that you deem apt in the art of  EEing.
Believe absolutely what you see on your bench. BUT! Don't just look at numbers_in_boxes and assume everything is as it seems, or try to make your observations or (mis)-interpretations fit into some esoteric pet theory of yours. Unfortunately, I see this happening more often than not here. Ask questions and figure things out. The only assumptions that you should be making about your results are that what you are observing is normal, and not extraordinary. This of course applies to observations that seem out of the ordinary. But keep your common sense and knowledge about you. For example, if the total measured capacitance of two parallel capacitors is not greater than the value of either one, then don't assume that is "normal".

Quote
1-how can the rotor in some way reduce the P/in by more than is required to drive it in the first place?
That is a false unfounded assumption. Where is your proof or evidence of this?

Quote
2-How can the open circuit voltage across the battery/coil combo reduce the P/in,when the voltage across the coil remains the same with and without the rotor in play?
Again, a false assumption or faulty analysis, particularly disappointing when it has already been explained.

Quote
3- Why dose Poynts sim not show the same effect as we see with our DUT's-in that while he can show a reduction in P/in,he also gets a reduction in P/out,where as we get a reduction in P/in while maintaining or increasing the P/out when the rotor is in play. What is the one thing his sim dose not have that we do have?.
Already explained. Do you read my posts? The sim requires tweaking to match the effect, which is often the case when dealing with non-linear cores. My sim has no magnets and no rotor, but provides a good emulation of both.

Quote
4- Why has no EE to date been able to recreate the effect without the use of PM's ?.
Why have you not attempted to recreate the effect using a non-rotor method already provided to you? Would that not be one way to "check" your theory about the magic being in the magnets?

Quote
Things to think about.
Indeed

Offline gotoluc

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Great demo Luc,and once again seems to show the opposite to what the EE guys say should happen. I will have to give this a go myself today,but use a ferrite toroid to see if the effect is the same.

Brad

Dear Brad,

to date Finemet tape cores are the only cores I've ever seen that inductance of a coil wound on them increases when a magnet approaches the core.

Ferrites are the worse, complete opposite. Transformer steel laminations are not affected very much by a magnet.

If we can prove there's a benefit to a coils increasing in Inductance between the on and off time, then Finemet cores are the way to go.

Luc

Offline tinman

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Indeed

Quote
Someone provided an explanation about this a little while back. Guess you missed it? The "work" being done by the rotor is during the ON portion of the cycle.

The explanation provided has not been proven to be correct--and that is a fact.

Quote
Someone already provided an explanation[/url] as to the reason the measured voltage is the same in both cases. Did you miss that one also?

Once again,that explanation is not backed up with proof.

Quote
Someone provided an explanation as to how and why the current is being reduced during the ON time. Surely you didn't miss that one too?

No-once again i did not miss it,and no proof has been provided to back up the explanation.

Quote
Believe absolutely what you see on your bench. BUT! Don't just look at numbers_in_boxes and assume everything is as it seems, or try to make your observations or (mis)-interpretations fit into some esoteric pet theory of yours. Unfortunately, I see this happening more often than not here. Ask questions and figure things out. The only assumptions that you should be making about your results are that what you are observing is normal, and not extraordinary. Then figure out why.

I am yet to see this !normal! reproduced,and every explanation given has not been backed up with proof.

Quote
1-how can the rotor in some way reduce the P/in by more than is required to drive it in the first place?
That is a false unfounded assumption. Where is your proof or evidence of this?

Quote Poynt:
Quote
The "work" being done by the rotor is during the ON portion of the cycle.

So i ask once again--how can the rotor do more work,or return stored energy back to the coil during the ON portion of the cycle,when it is during the ON portion of the cycle that the rotor receives it's energy from the coil?. So my assumptions are not unfounded at all !thank you very much!. And this is the reason your explanations make no sense. You have clearly stated that the rotor is doing work,or returning energy back to the system during the ON part of the cycle. But it is during the ON part of the cycle that the rotor receives it's energy from the coil. So when i ask you to explain as to how (at the same time) the rotor returns more energy to the coil than it received from it,i mean exactly that. If it did not return more energy than it received,then we would see an increase in P/in,or a reduction in P/out.

Quote
Again, a false assumption or faulty analysis, particularly disappointing when it has already been explained.

There has been no explanation that fits what is happening,and when it is happening. Like your statement that the stored energy,or work being done by the rotor is during the ON time-->no it is not,as during the ON time is when the rotor receives it's energy to store,if it was not,then the rotor would not spin. When the rotor syncs up with the coil,the magnet on the rotor is at TDC when the coil switches off,so there is no point in time during the ON time that the rotor can return any of it's energy to the system,as at that ON time period is when the rotor is receiving energy--not giving it back.

Quote
Already explained. Do you read my posts? The sim requires tweaking to match the effect, which is often the case when dealing with non-linear cores. My sim has no magnets and no rotor, but provides a good emulation of both.

Once again-yes i read your post,but i guess you missed my reply to your post?. If you didnt miss my reply,then you would not be asking me if i read your post.

Quote
Why have you not attempted to recreate the effect using a non-rotor method already provided to you? Would that not be one way to "check" your theory about the magic being in the magnets?

Why would i waste my time doing that,when you your self have been unable to recreate the effect without the use of PM's. So the method provided dose not resemble or show the same effect as seen with the rotor and PM's.

If you are going to post !! theories !! about what is happening and why,then have the evidence to back it up. At this point in time,my theory of the magnets doing the work to align the magnetic domains within the core is more credible than what you have provided so far.


Brad

Offline poynt99

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There has been no explanation that fits what is happening,and when it is happening. Like your statement that the stored energy,or work being done by the rotor is during the ON time-->no it is not,as during the ON time is when the rotor receives it's energy to store,if it was not,then the rotor would not spin. When the rotor syncs up with the coil,the magnet on the rotor is at TDC when the coil switches off,so there is no point in time during the ON time that the rotor can return any of it's energy to the system,as at that ON time period is when the rotor is receiving energy--not giving it back.
For a fellow that supposedly has an open mind to possibilities, you appear to be having problems thinking outside the box.

Has it occurred to you that the rotor and coil are exchanging energy at the same time? Apparently not.

Wish there was, but I see no reason to continue my discussion here.

 

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