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Author Topic: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?  (Read 36675 times)

Offline Jimboot

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JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« on: November 04, 2015, 03:53:20 AM »
Interesting vid from Lidmotor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ob914aCKw I see Coule Joule has also done a build.
Here is JB build from last week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQzcYZk9MWA

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Offline synchro1

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2015, 06:52:50 AM »
This is a copy posting from the "Sine Wave" thread:

The picture below from JLN is just to help visualize the concept. Look at the rings inside the core of the coil form. Imagine a bearingless tube magnet spinning inside the center of the rings where coils would be positioned as the rings are; One coil a bifilar Bedini power coil wired as Lidmoter's SSG, and the remaining seven, output coils, all "Lenz Free"!

The coil poles form on the perpendicular to the permanent magnet field, so they can't cause trouble like they would if they were facing the magnet spinner.

Offline minoly

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 06:53:38 PM »
Interesting vid from Lidmotor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ob914aCKw I see Coule Joule has also done a build.
Here is JB build from last week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQzcYZk9MWA


check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdQ7uBrSuuM


I commented on Lidmotor's youtube:


"I'm always amazed how long you can run your builds off of a supercap.
So, sorry to say this and please correct me if I misunderstand you someplace, but this is not JB's Zero Force Motor. I'm not talking about the build or some little idiosyncrasy that I'm getting hung up on.
There is one reason this is not Zero Force. hint - if it was Zero Force, you would not be able to run it on that circuit you have there.
cheers - Patrick"
and he muted me - lol


I guess I was too secretive on my comment? Anyway, the zero force if you understand it does not make a significant wave, that is you should not be able to trigger a transistor hence you can not run it that way. this is why JB is using a reed switch. We can just as well use a hall sensor. The timing is also important which is another reason to get the "trigger" out of the coil...
Cheers - Patrick (my real name!)


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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 06:53:38 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 10:08:23 PM »
I'm baffled as to why it's called "zero force" considering that it requires force to make the rotor spin and that force comes from the repulsion or attraction between the rotor magnets and the magnetic fields produced by the two drive coils.  I suppose that you could call it a "marketing term."

Putting the drive coils sideways still results in a magnetic force on the rotor magnets.  The reduced coupling between the magnets and the drive coils will reduce the EMF induced in the coils when the rotor magnets pass, but so what?  EMF induced in the drive coils has no really significant effect on the operation of the motor.  I believe in JB's clip he is also referring to this as "counter-EMF."

JB says, "The motor is running in a neutral zero field."  It's not hard to visualize the field produced by the drive coils and that's certainly not a "neutral zero field."  He says that the motor "does not have a counter-EMF while it is rotating."  The truth is that it does, although it is reduced like I state above.  All that you have to do is scope a disconnected drive coil and spin the rotor by hand and you will clearly see the EMF (a.k.a. "counter-EMF") induced in the drive coils by the passing magnets.  There are some gentle slopes that you see on the scope display which may be due to the induced EMF.  But keep in mind, this induced EMF has no real effect on the operation of this pulse motor, so it is meaningless.  In his clip he talks about a "figure-eight loop" and "spins" for the magnetic fields generated by the drive coils which is nonsense.

A month ago on his YouTube channel AaronM made this comment about this type of motor, "The novelty of this motor is that there is no back emf. Lenz's law is avoided."  What "back emf" is he talking about?  What Lenz's Law is he talking about I wonder.  Perhaps someone can educate me because I see no back-EMF and no Lenz's Law associated with this pulse motor.  I suppose it depends on how you define it.  More importantly, what tangible effect is he talking about?  He also says this, which is almost comical, "Anything that needs some good torque or speed with less electricity than it normally takes. Without Back EMF, it is way more efficient than conventional motors."  It's a pulse motor, the torque is abysmal.  Again, what "back-EMF?"  It's not "way more efficient than conventional motors."  For every pulse of the drive coils, that takes a certain amount of battery energy.  Where does that energy go?  A small amount of it goes into pushing on the rotor to make it spin.  A big chunk of it goes into subtending the magnetic field produced by each drive coil.  Most of the battery energy required to produce that pair of subtended magnetic fields does no useful work.  When the transistors switch off, you get the big high voltage spikes you see on the scope display.  That's the stored energy in the magnetic fields collapsing and slamming current through the transistors that are in the process of switching off.  It's safe to say that probably much more supplied battery energy goes into heating the transistors than goes into actually making the rotor run.  So Aaron's statement that "Without Back EMF, it is way more efficient than conventional motors." is dead wrong.

It's a fun build I am sure, and it is interesting looking from an aesthetic viewpoint.  However, it will not be more efficient than a conventionally built pulse motor.  And not to be picky, but you have to define what "efficiency" means.  You absolutely have to do this.  So by several metrics for efficiency, you can expect that a conventional pulse motor will be more efficient than the "Zero Force" motor.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 03:22:03 AM »
Here's a picture of my Marinov Slab motor that I built in 1999. The photo here was taken in 2005. I used a Hall effect sensor for the "triggering" a power mosfet but a reed switch and bipolar transistor would work just as well and would allow even lower voltage operation. This motor is an analog of the Marinov "warlock's wheel" or Siberian Coliu which has the stator structure and the armature both turning in the _same direction_. In my case of course the stator coils are fixed to the frame, but since they want to turn in the same direction as the rotor, not the opposite direction .... well, you can figure out just what that means.

Nearly _sixteen years_ ago I  made this !!

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 03:22:03 AM »
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Offline minoly

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 04:35:52 AM »
Here's a picture of my Marinov Slab motor that I built in 1999. The photo here was taken in 2005. I used a Hall effect sensor for the "triggering" a power mosfet but a reed switch and bipolar transistor would work just as well and would allow even lower voltage operation. This motor is an analog of the Marinov "warlock's wheel" or Siberian Coliu which has the stator structure and the armature both turning in the _same direction_. In my case of course the stator coils are fixed to the frame, but since they want to turn in the same direction as the rotor, not the opposite direction .... well, you can figure out just what that means.

Nearly _sixteen years_ ago I  made this !!
I would love to see that in action, very cool!

Offline synchro1

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 05:05:50 AM »
Lidmotor's latest "Zero Force Bedini":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6h5kK8zUog

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 05:05:50 AM »
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Offline seychelles

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 07:14:59 AM »
no new news nothing to wounder in awe here move on please,
move on lol good on you tk..best new news is my new post on
tinman shorting post.. check it out and let me know if it works.
i will classify it as electrical lamination..

Offline Jimboot

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 11:55:59 AM »
Here's a picture of my Marinov Slab motor that I built in 1999. The photo here was taken in 2005. I used a Hall effect sensor for the "triggering" a power mosfet but a reed switch and bipolar transistor would work just as well and would allow even lower voltage operation. This motor is an analog of the Marinov "warlock's wheel" or Siberian Coliu which has the stator structure and the armature both turning in the _same direction_. In my case of course the stator coils are fixed to the frame, but since they want to turn in the same direction as the rotor, not the opposite direction .... well, you can figure out just what that means.

Nearly _sixteen years_ ago I  made this !!
Yeah but you didn't give it a cool name. Dig up the vhs tapes and put it on YT otherwise it's not real :)
I'm not that impressed with a 5ma current draw as lid motor reported. Geez even I can get a pulse motor running at 6000 rpm on 5ma

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 11:55:59 AM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 03:25:23 PM »
Assuming the parts were foraged from back alley fry grease trash barrels, it might be more aptly named the Marinov "Slob" motor.

Offline tinman

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 03:30:31 PM »
Yeah but you didn't give it a cool name. Dig up the vhs tapes and put it on YT otherwise it's not real :)
I'm not that impressed with a 5ma current draw as lid motor reported. Geez even I can get a pulse motor running at 6000 rpm on 5ma

well i just had to go and build one Jim lol.

Video up soon-->what a crap motor lol.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 03:30:31 PM »
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Offline minoly

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 05:32:56 PM »
Lidmotor's latest "Zero Force Bedini":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6h5kK8zUog


The timing on that build is still wrong - Have to watch JB's vid and slow it down frame by frame.
I was able to get my toroidal build down to microAmps. Still, I have many a build that will run on low watts like that including the "dollar store solar begging cat"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDiaiKzWx2Q
In his video JB actually states where the timing is as well.

Offline Lidmotor

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2015, 06:23:09 PM »
 I am most anxious to see detailed plans and videos showing how this motor can run on micro amps and produce torque.  I must be missing something.  I just see a curious inefficient motor. 
  Tk I would really like to see that 'slab motor' in action.  That might be my next fun build.
--Lidmotor

Offline MileHigh

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2015, 07:19:23 PM »
In Lidmotor's clip you can see that he has the reed switch positioned so that the drive coils are energized when the rotor magnets are approximately in the middle of the drive coils.  This is what JB stipulates so I am not sure why you have an issue with the timing.  We can't see the duty cycle.

In the JB clip there is a double-pulse that energizes the coils.  That seems strange considering he is using magnets and (presumably) a single reed switch on a timing wheel.  It would be worth investigating if you has his build.  Assume the rotor magnets are approximately in the middle of the drive coils when the drive coils are energized.  We can see the duty cycle is about 40% ON time.  I am going to guess that that's too high a duty cycle and he is wasting energy.  However, because of the way his timing wheel and the magnets and reed switch are arranged, he can't really move the reed switch in and out and adjust the duty cycle easily.

For your build, if you make a full toroidal core with no air gaps then it's very likely that the motor won't run at all.  Almost all of the flux will be contained in the core and none will be available to provide attraction/repulsion to the rotor magnets.  It looks like the reason it runs is because you are "saved" by the little white plastic gaps at the top and (presumably) bottom of the two halves of the core.  It goes right back to the main problem with this design, you are getting very little bang for your buck when it comes to using the available magnetic energy that you put in the drive coils.  I will post a superior design that makes use of more of the energy that you put in the drive coils.

I think that Lidmotor is paying lip service to JB when he says, "this point in a magnet where the flux goes to zero" and he is pointing at the center of one of the drive coils.  He is fully aware that the flux does not go to zero at the center and there is no Bloch wall at the center of a magnet or at the center of an energized coil.  That's a foolish myth that needs to be corrected.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: JB Zero Force Motor - anyone building?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2015, 08:29:28 PM »
Well here is the kick-ass pulse motor that I am calling the "figure-eight" pulse motor.  It uses both ends of the drive coil, and there is a pair of drive coils, hence the "figure-eight."

The drive coils I made have a "C" form, but that's just because I was using Paint and I can't be bothered to do anything fancier than that.  They could just as easily be nice smooth curves if you wanted.

Since this motor is using both ends of a pair of drive coils, and if you went with full pull-then-push double pulses, it would be a screamer and use a fair chunk of the energy that you put into the drive coils to actually make the rotor turn.  With pull-then-push timing you can energize the pair of drive cols eight times per revolution.  Considering that there are four sources of driving torque on the rotor, that's almost like having thirty-two "pulses per revolution."  However, the timing here is very tricky, because if you are going to fire the drive coils every 1/4 turn, then you have to alternate the polarities for energizing the coils every 1/4 turn.  That requires some sophistication in the timing and coil energizing circuit.  The easiest way to get the design going would be to fire the drive coils every 1/2 turn.  Then you can forget about the alternating polarities business.

The main design and build challenge is developing a system to implement the pulse timing.  You could use a "dumb" pick-up coil that is coaxial with one of the ends of one of the drive coils a la standard Bedini SG motor.  But then you are a victim of the double-pulse problem because when the drive coil energizes it feeds back into the pick-up coil and switches the transistor off.  Then the transistor switches on again and so on.  You have limited control over the pulse timing with that solution.  The MHOP design is not really going to work either because you don't have a "clear" space to add the sensor coil for the op-amp that is aligned in time with where you want to energize the drive coils.

To solve the problems associated with the timing circuit when you want to fire the pair of drive coils four times per revolution, you can see how I added four "button" magnets that are 45 degrees away from the main rotor magnets.  They also alternate north-south to be in accord with the way the rotor magnets are arranged.  If you put only two button magnets instead of four, the you can use a "dumb" pick-up coil or a "dumb" reed switch or the basic MHOP circuit to control the firing of the drive coils only twice per revolution.  You still will have quite a bit of control over the timing because you can move the pick-up coil or the reed switch, play with the value of the base resistor, etc.  If you want much better timing control and sharp ON-OFF switching, use the MHOP timing circuit and then you are laughing.  One of the biggest advantages of the MHOP design is the razor-sharp ON-OFF switching.

With four button magnets and the MHOP timing circuit, then you can have a very flexible control for the timing of the energizing pulses.  However, you still have the problem of making sure that you are in sync with the north-south-north-south arrangement of the rotor magnets.  Since the button magnets alternate north-south in theory you have all of the information you need to know which direction to energize the drive coils every 1/4 turn.  However, the devil would be in the details.  For example, you could use a CMOS 4000 series Set-Reset Flip-Flop to get the sequencing of the energizing of the drive coils properly synchronized with the rotor magnets.

The "Cadillac" design would fire the rotor eight times per revolution, with the fancy alternating polarities and the pull-push on the rotor, and also have full pulse timing flexibility like the MHOP design.  It would be a real challenge for the average experimenter to design and build, but that's supposed to be part of the fun.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 10:30:20 PM by MileHigh »

 

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