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Author Topic: Homopolar Generator Revisit.  (Read 13502 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2015, 02:50:05 PM »
I have not yet located my old setup,as i spent most of my weekend building my new toroid transformer,and today was also Bathurst race day-the biggest car race in Australia,so the television got most of my attention today.

@ Poynt and Vortex
Have you guys given this any more thought?

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2015, 02:50:05 PM »

Offline antijon

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2015, 08:59:58 PM »
Hey guys, just had a couple of postulations about this.

Everyone brings up good questions and points, and this is definitely a paradoxical machine. I think one of the big questions it brings up is, does the magnetic field rotate with the magnet, or is it stationary even when the magnet is rotating?

We all know that a magnetic field is made up of lines of magnetic force, so they should rotate with the magnet because they emanate from the magnetic domains.

To prove this, we can:
1. rotate the magnet but leave the disc stationary. Of course, the brushes would also have to move with the magnet.
2. spin the disc and the magnet in opposite directions. If the voltage increases, this proves that the magnetic field spins with the magnet.

The question here, though, is why are the brushes required, or can attached wires produce current. I also say, no attached wires cannot produce current, yes stationary brushes are required. But I'll also suggest a test with brushes that should not produce current.

We know that when the disc is moving relative to stationary brushes, current is developed. This is due to the fact that the disc is behaving as a single conductor, or wire, between the brushes. An analogy would be wires emanating from the axis, like a bicycle wheel with spokes. Because a wire moving in a magnetic field creates current, so does the disc (between the brushes).

The first image demonstrates a current carrying wire in a uniform magnetic field. Two important principles to understand here is that,
1. the section of the disc between brushes produces a magnetic field similar to a single conductor, and
2. Lenz law is in effect when the disc is generating.

First, about Lenz law, whenever a current is induced, the magnetic field created by the current will always be in opposition to the inducing magnetic field. Therefore, when the disc is generating, back-torque is produced in the disc, whether the magnet is moving or not. Simply, the current is trying to motor in the opposite direction that you are spinning it, and it has no effect on the brushes because it happens in the disc.

Now the complex part of the HPG. Because it is a single conductor, a disc, current cannot flow without brushes. This is because there is no individual point for the current to traverse. As the entire disc produces current radially, the produced magnetic fields (in the disc), cancel each other out and prevent current movement.

The final image is the test I propose.
A dome shaped conductor with it's edge in a trough of mercury. It's exactly the same as a disc with brushes except for one difference, the entire edge of the disc is touching the brush simultaneously. I speculate that this design cannot generate current or motor for the same reason as above. The generated current cannot produce a non-uniform magnetic field, and therefore cannot have current flow.

Offline MagnaProp

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2015, 09:44:20 PM »
...We all know that a magnetic field is made up of lines of magnetic force, so they should rotate with the magnet because they emanate from the magnetic domains...
Not sure I agree. I think the magnet is just the tip of an ether hose. If you rotate the black tip of a water hose, shown in the image, the water running out of the hose will not start to spin. Even if you put a wire mesh on that spinning tip, the water will not start to spin.

If you want to say the tip of our hose has little water jets, then you might have a point at relatively slow spin and if our water jet tip and the disk were very close together. If you spun such a water tip fast enough the water should never reach our disk since it would just fly out 90 degrees from centrifugal force. I think having a magnet on both sides of the disk straightens out the magnetic lines and they travel fast enough and through any object easily enough, it's as if the magnetic isn't even there as far as the field it pumps in concerned.

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2015, 09:44:20 PM »
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Offline MagnaProp

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2015, 10:17:38 PM »
Just to clarify. I do think permanent magnet fields have spin. Tinman has shown this in the water experiments. But I think it is very weak. Between two magnets, the spin or curved field lines get straightened out very quickly. They are also easily cut and reattached. So if the magnetic domain it emanates from is spinning, the flux line may just detach and quickly reattach to the next nearest one, essentially keeping the flux line in place. So if the straightened field lines rotate, they are essentially uncoupled from the magnet and may spin relatively slowly depending on where the next domain is that the straightened flux line reattaches to. 

When you have two magnets, the flux acts like the either hose I posted previously.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2015, 01:34:21 AM »
So, has someone tried to rotate the brush at the edge of the disc, instead of rotating the disc? Rotating the brush should take much less energy than rotating the disc, because it has much less mass, and less friction due to that.

In my mind, rotating the brush should rotate the electrons. Which then get some radial force because of the radial sum of the vectors of the force of every magnetic dipole near it. An no lenz law should work against that radial force component.

So just thinking that maintaining these electrons on orbit around the atoms with a constant speed contributes a part of the force, and this comes free for us (except zero point energy perhaps), then this supposed to give some additional energy. Just as i think about it now, i cannot be sure that my understanding of what happens is exactly accurate.

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2015, 01:34:21 AM »
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Offline MagnaProp

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2015, 01:39:15 AM »
So, has someone tried to rotate the brush at the edge of the disc, instead of rotating the disc?...
At 2:04 he rotates only both brushes and gets a voltage.

He doesn't rotate the outer one and leave the inner one stationary if that's what you meant. He also doesn't rotate the brushes and the disk together.

Interesting that the same direction of rotation gives different voltage polarity from the stator or rotor. If the stator was free to spin, would you get free extra rotation in the opposite direction from the stator while the disk/rotor is spinning?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gduYoT9sMaE

Offline tinman

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2015, 02:29:49 AM »
Hey guys, just had a couple of postulations about this.

Everyone brings up good questions and points, and this is definitely a paradoxical machine. I think one of the big questions it brings up is, does the magnetic field rotate with the magnet, or is it stationary even when the magnet is rotating?



To prove this, we can:

The question here, though, is why are the brushes required, or can attached wires produce current. I also say, no attached wires cannot produce current, yes stationary brushes are required. But I'll also suggest a test with brushes that should not produce current.



The first image demonstrates a current carrying wire in a uniform magnetic field. Two important principles to understand here is that,



Now the complex part of the HPG. Because it is a single conductor, a disc, current cannot flow without brushes. This is because there is no individual point for the current to traverse. As the entire disc produces current radially, the produced magnetic fields (in the disc), cancel each other out and prevent current movement.

The final image is the test I propose.
A dome shaped conductor with it's edge in a trough of mercury. It's exactly the same as a disc with brushes except for one difference, the entire edge of the disc is touching the brush simultaneously. I speculate that this design cannot generate current or motor for the same reason as above. The generated current cannot produce a non-uniform magnetic field, and therefore cannot have current flow.

Quote
We all know that a magnetic field is made up of lines of magnetic force, so they should rotate with the magnet because they emanate from the magnetic domains.

No-there are no magnetic lines of force-->the field is uniform like the vacuum of space.

Quote
1. rotate the magnet but leave the disc stationary. Of course, the brushes would also have to move with the magnet.

If the brushes move regardless of what the magnet is doing,and EMF will be produced across the center and outer brush.

Quote
2. spin the disc and the magnet in opposite directions. If the voltage increases, this proves that the magnetic field spins with the magnet.

Spinning the magnet will make no change to the EMF across the disc.

Quote
We know that when the disc is moving relative to stationary brushes, current is developed. This is due to the fact that the disc is behaving as a single conductor, or wire, between the brushes. An analogy would be wires emanating from the axis, like a bicycle wheel with spokes. Because a wire moving in a magnetic field creates current, so does the disc (between the brushes).

An EMF is produced across a conductor when the magnetic field varies with time. The magnetic field in a HPG dose not vary with time.

Quote
1. the section of the disc between brushes produces a magnetic field similar to a single conductor.

I have heard this many times before,but ask yourself this. How was a current flow produced in the first place that creates this magnetic field between the brushes.

Quote
2. Lenz law is in effect when the disc is generating.

First, about Lenz law, whenever a current is induced, the magnetic field created by the current will always be in opposition to the inducing magnetic field. Therefore, when the disc is generating, back-torque is produced in the disc, whether the magnet is moving or not. Simply, the current is trying to motor in the opposite direction that you are spinning it, and it has no effect on the brushes because it happens in the disc.

This is not true,as the brushes are the only reference frame that is different from the rest of the HPG,and so the backtorque must come from the brushes being fixed-right  ???. Well this is what most will have you believe,but i do not think this is the case. Has anyone actually measured any force on the brushes when a HPG is loaded-a current drawn from the rotating disc?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2015, 02:29:49 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2015, 03:21:51 AM »
Poynt & Vortex

Below is a quick!paint! drawing of a HPG design. In this design i have series connected two HPG's via way of a stainless steel drum,to carry the current from one to the other HPG. I have maintained the fixed brushes to give us our stationary point of reference-in case the magnetic field cannot be seen as that stationary point of reference. Tesla had a similar design where he used a conducting belt to series connect the two HPG's,but i believe the flaw in that design is the fact that the belt it self has a different point of reference to that of the disc's,and would cause the back torque. In my design bellow,the conducting drum has the same point of reference as the two copper disc's and magnets-all rotate together. The two brushes are placed so as they make contact with the center of each half shaft. The brushes maintain the different point of reference to that of the rotating mass,and thus the system should still produce a current flow-->but where would back torque be produced ?.

This design should also double the available voltage.

Offline Liberty

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2015, 03:25:37 AM »
No-there are no magnetic lines of force-->the field is uniform like the vacuum of space.

If the brushes move regardless of what the magnet is doing,and EMF will be produced across the center and outer brush.

Spinning the magnet will make no change to the EMF across the disc.

An EMF is produced across a conductor when the magnetic field varies with time. The magnetic field in a HPG dose not vary with time.

I have heard this many times before,but ask yourself this. How was a current flow produced in the first place that creates this magnetic field between the brushes.

This is not true,as the brushes are the only reference frame that is different from the rest of the HPG,and so the backtorque must come from the brushes being fixed-right  ??? . Well this is what most will have you believe,but i do not think this is the case. Has anyone actually measured any force on the brushes when a HPG is loaded-a current drawn from the rotating disc?

My theory is that the brushes create a circuit or a "virtual wire" across the magnetic generating surface.  Therefore as long as there is velocity/movement between the generating surface and the virtual wire across the surface, the wire in effect, passes through the magnetic field, and a voltage/current is realized across the virtual wire circuit created by the brushes.  The back torque is between the "virtual wire" and the surface conductor. (with it's counter magnetic field formed when current flows to the load)  (formed by the two contact brushes).  The current flow across the magnetic surface will always take the path of least resistance between the brushes.

The "virtual wire" when in motion, creates a difference in charge across the wire, because the magnetic field is changing across the virtual wire at a different rate from the inside to the outside of the generating surface.  The inside will always pass through less magnetic field as compared to the outside of the virtual wire.  So a constant difference in charge occurs across the virtual wire while in motion.  Current only flows and back torque occurs when a load is applied to the brushes to complete a circuit.  The magnetic field from the virtual wire is a circular field, and repels the conductor surface magnetic field like an eddy current type of magnetic drag.  Similar to dropping a cylindrical magnet down a copper pipe.

Just wanted to pass on a different theory/perspective.  I'll jump out and wish you all a good day/evening.

Liberty.

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2015, 03:25:37 AM »
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Offline antijon

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2015, 07:30:15 PM »
@MagnaProp
Good points, however, wouldn't it be plausible to assume that the magnetic lines themselves are spinning, causing the entire magnetic field spin? I mean, the spin of many small things induces the spin of the whole. Just like if we put 5 tornadoes in a circle, all spinning the same way, the entire air mass would also spin in that direction. This view allows the effects you describe and also shows that magnetic lines do emit from magnetic domains.

Quote
No-there are no magnetic lines of force-->the field is uniform like the vacuum of space.
Tinman, I'll have to reference Eric Dollard here, who says that there are magnetic lines. I believe that the lines follow the aether like strings. Magnetic lines extend, can be compressed or expanded, connected or snapped apart. He describes moving a magnet over a coil connected to headphones. He says it makes a crackling sound, due to the field lines snapping together or breaking as they pass the inductor. I haven't tried this, but I expect it to be true... it is Eric Dollard after all.

Quote
Spinning the magnet will make no change to the EMF across the disc.
Let me rephrase that. If the disc is spinning, and producing a voltage. Say 1 volt. While the disc is spinning, spin the magnet in the opposite direction. If the voltage increases that proves that the field spins with the magnet.

Quote
I have heard this many times before,but ask yourself this. How was a current flow produced in the first place that creates this magnetic field between the brushes.
In normal operation ( disc spinning) known laws of induction can be applied. Conductor moving in magnetic field. But this doesn't apply when only the brushes move and current is generated. For that I can only say that the magnet induces an electrical stress on the disc.
Quote
This is not true,as the brushes are the only reference frame that is different from the rest of the HPG,and so the backtorque must come from the brushes being fixed-right
This is a video link from Jorge Guala-Valverde... http://www.andrijar.com/homavi/motor.avi
 He shows that a current carrying wire produces a torque in space. The torque also drags the magnet. Because the force is so small it's hard to say that it's not acting against the brushes, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the last experiment. It appears to react against the surrounding space, or the magnetic field in that space.

In generator mode, I'm inclined to believe that backtorque would develop on the shaft, but if that isn't the case, Lenz law would still manifest and show itself, possibly by low efficiency at high power outputs.

Offline MagnaProp

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2015, 10:45:29 PM »
Sorry about my previous image. I had the S spinning in the wrong direction but it's corrected in this image.

... if we put 5 tornadoes in a circle, all spinning the same way,...
I think they don't all spin the same way. S spins the opposite way that N spins. In your scenario I would say we have only 4 tornadoes with two spinning clockwise and two spinning counterclockwise ending up in no net rotation.

Lets say we have two fans. N is a fan that blows our tornado up and S is a fan, spinning the opposite direction, that sucks our tornado in. A house sucked into such a system would basically travel in a straight line if each fan is equal in strength and if the house is traveling very fast. So between opposite poles you get opposite spin which I think straightens out flux lines. With the straightened flux lines, you get ether flow along these flux lines similar to that of water out a garden hose. Spinning the tip of a garden hose doesn't cause the water coming out of it to spin as well.

Tinman says "there are no magnetic lines of force" so I'll defer to him.


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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2015, 10:45:29 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2015, 12:05:18 AM »
Tinman,

I like the design because it defines the third state of the homopolar generator.
That is the state of simply rotating only the magnet, which we know will not generate any power, but it's the reason it does not generate power that is important.


The uniform field can slip around the face of the magnet and never cut the conductor by simply sliding around with the conductor.
To generate power in a uniform field the field must be forced across the conductor as can be done by another conductor cutting the field in the opposite direction at the same time.

You will need to add another set of drum and disks that is stationary or rotates in the opposite direction to force the field to cross one or the other and not simply slide around the magnets.



Offline lumen

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2015, 02:56:54 AM »
Ok, now that you made me think about this again, that design makes me think a homopolar generator can be built without any brushes!

Suppose like your drawing there is a copper tube with the inner set of magnets inside of it with copper caps on the ends like the disks shown, but there is also a copper rod down the center of the tube shorting any current produced.

Now there is another copper outer tube with end caps just outside the inner tube. This outer tube will be stationary with the output coming off near the center shaft and only the center cylinder rotates.

The center cylinder cuts the field and generates a back emf that causes the field to slide around the magnets, but the outer cylinder (when under load) would generate a back emf also trying to prevent the field from slipping.

So in the end you would have a brushless homopolar generator. The bad news is that it would have increased drag as the load increases like all generators.


Offline antijon

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2015, 04:27:29 PM »
@MagnaProp,
I understand what you mean. If North and South spin in different directions then they must do as you say.

I don't know about Tinman's experiments with magnetic spin, but I have seen a video of electrolysis being performed in the vicinity of a permanent magnet. In this case it must be considered that the electric current is causing the water's rotation. This can be proven by flipping the voltage polarity. I also remember a thread here by someone that was trying to promote his E-book about magnetic spin, but from I saw his tests showed no reason to believe it was inherent, nor useful.

I still don't understand the concept of a uniform magnetic field. It certainly makes the operation of a homopolar generator easier to understand, along with a rotating field, but is that the case? If a perfectly created magnet was used, that appeared to have a balanced magnetic field, then I can understand uniformity and magnetic rotation. But magnets are made perfectly. If a magnet was created imperfectly, which can be done, and was weaker on the left side of the pole face than on the right, it could still produce current in an HPG. So how can a magnet with a lop-sided field be uniform, or how does a non-uniform magnetic field rotate?

I'm sorry that I'm questioning something that many of you believe in, but considering that electron spin, and electron procession, are the cause of magnetic fields, I don't understand how a magnetic field can be uniform. Electrons can be quantified and positioned in space. The produced magnetic fields should inherently be quantified and positioned in space.

Offline minnie

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Re: Homopolar Generator Revisit.
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2015, 04:56:33 PM »



  I came across this. Unipolar generator demonstration of special relativity, RE Berg.
           John.

 

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