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Mechanical free energy devices => Reactive Power usage => Topic started by: penno64 on September 12, 2015, 11:18:54 PM

Title: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 12, 2015, 11:18:54 PM
Hi all,

Does anyone have suggestions regarding Brad's coil shorting circuit?

From the videos, we see the coils are feed into the circuit and on the top of vero board,
one transistor, one diode and a resistor seem to make up the coil shorting.

Total output is then feed into a larger smoothing/buffer cap.

Any diagram suggestions are welcome. I am happy to build and test.

Regards, Penno

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 13, 2015, 01:09:01 AM
Hi Penno,

I drew these two schematics to someone but it was in early July and then tests have been suspended, I have no further info yet.

I also noticed the diode in the veroboard and I thought it is the diode Tinman also showed in his schematic in series with the switch S1. 
If the diode on the vero board is not that one, then the diode shown on the board could be in series with the drain pin of the MOSFET to defeat the effect of the body diode but I did not show this possibility in my schematics.
I may be wrong but I assume in my schematics that the body diode of the MOSFET (shown between drain-source) has no unwanted shorting effect on the induced voltage of coil B when the MOSFET is in the off state. 
Normally for coil shorting when done with MOSFET, two seriesly connected MOSFETs are used (their source pins tied together and the two drains short the coil when both FETs are driven from the same control signal) so that their body diodes block conduction for any AC polarity.  Tinman may have not used two MOSFETs because there is only one shown (I do not assume there are hidden components under the vero board, though it occurs to me he mentioned he did not include in his schematic all the components he used).
So in case two MOSFETs were used for coil shorting, then later I can draw such schematic too.

The reason for drawing two schematics shown below was to show the polarity for the gate-source control signal is important, meaning to choose the connection version which brings a positive gate pulse with respect to the source pin from coil A.
Tinman did not probably use a potmeter to reduce the spike amplitude below 20V (I use R2 as a adjustable voltage divider with R1, this latter is between the gate-source). Tinman did mention the need for reducing the control spikes to the gate (not to burn the gate-source of the MOSFET), maybe he just used R1 in parallel with gate-source to prevent this,  not sure. Zener diode can also be used in parallel with gate-source.

Gyula
 
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 13, 2015, 02:25:30 AM
Hi Gyula,

Thanks for that.

I understood that the diode was for rectifying only.

The mosfet mentioned was the irf540

The resistor unknown.

It just seems simpler.

Regards, Penno
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on September 13, 2015, 10:47:00 AM
Penno64, Thanks for starting this thread.
Gyula, I thought that the little circuit board that penno64 showed was the right side of the of the circuit Brad showed in the attached diagram.
In his he has the shorting  shown as just a block.
Where do the spikes go into the cap?
I'm totally useless with electronics, I've been trying mechanical shorting but with no luck.
Can it be that simple , a diode, mosfet, and resistor?
Creating spikes is easy the hard part is catching them and storing .
Thanks artv
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 13, 2015, 03:23:21 PM
Hi Penno,

Yes, the diode on the vero board can be the one connected in series with switch S1 and this diode may steer the spikes into the puffer capacitor placed also onto the board.
It may be simpler but we do not know about components Tinman referred to that he has not shown.

Hi Art,

It is very possible that the right side of the circuit Brad showed in his diagram is the little circuit board Penno showed from the video but in Brad's diagram there is no MOSFET on the right side. Of course the circuit board could host the MOSFET and the wires could lead to the left side where Brad indicated the shorting circuit as a block.
On your question: The spikes can go to the puffer capacitor first by induction and then via the diode when switch S1 is on. Remember that the two stator coils share a common magnetic core and when you short and unshort coil B, the spikes appear across coil A by normal transformer induction. With closing S1, the spikes are steered into the capacitor. Also remember that the rotor is brushed and also part of the magnetic circuit so spikes from the rotor coils should also induce voltage and current in the stator coils.
On your other question whether it can be that simple, a diode, MOSFET and resistor: well, basically it could but experiments can tell this, together with knowing what components are not shown, especially in the shorting circuit block. This block may include two MOSFETs connected in series to do AC shorting where the body diodes cannot shunt any AC cycle but the controlled drain-source channels can.

Gyula
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 14, 2015, 12:05:23 PM
Trying to get some electronic schematic drawing tool to post my take on it.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 15, 2015, 12:14:26 AM
My guess -

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 15, 2015, 01:03:46 AM
Hi Penno,

In your drawing the gate-source of the MOSFET is biased via the left side stator coil by the DC voltage stored in the puffer capacitor, and if I figure correctly the bias is positive for the gate so that the MOSFET is ON all the time except for any induced peak AC voltages that are able to switch it off by defeating the DC bias. But this is not neccessarily wrong, of course, I think this would also be a possible schematic. 
Did you place (insert) the switch (named as S1 by Brad) into the gate wire where you drew two red squares with the question mark?
The gate-source of the MOSFET should be protected against overvoltage (especially when there is no load across the puffer capacitor) but I think you know that.  I would not consider this drawing a simpler one than I proposed though.  8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 15, 2015, 11:02:14 PM
Thanks Gyula.

Using just the components we can see -
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 15, 2015, 11:14:10 PM
Hi Penno,

Okay, thanks too. 

When attempting to build, you may wish to consider some further components protecting the gate-source agains overvoltage (this is why I indicated the potmeter and the resistor as simple means.  Brad mentioned the unloaded DC voltage in the puffer capacitor went up to several tens of Volts or higher (cannot recall at the moment correctly), that is too high for the MOSFET gate-source.
Do you happen to have the main components for the setup?

Gyula
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Jimboot on September 16, 2015, 12:41:37 AM
This is the sort of question I wish MarkE was still around for :( If we are shorting the output are we doing it to collect the collapse? If so why is that better than just taking the AC? Is it to change the polarity of the gen coils to aid rotation?
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 16, 2015, 01:03:53 PM
Maybe Brad might like to throw us a bone
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 17, 2015, 12:03:28 AM
...
If we are shorting the output are we doing it to collect the collapse?
...

Hi Jimboot,

Your question was answered by Brad in June if you go back to his posts. See his reply to woopy (Reply #3782 on: June 22, 2015, 12:48:14 PM, page 253) for instance  where he explains that a shorted coil in the right moment works as an electromagnet and he bucks its field with the rotor field, this is what gives some extra torque in the first place and the collection of the collapsed field takes place also and steered to the puffer capacitor.  So Brad shorts stator coil B in the first place to get an increase in rotor torque.

Further quotes from Brad from his other posts:

So here is where im at with V3 of the rotary transformer. Adding the bucking coil setup did indeed increase the overall output of the system-both mechanical and electrical. When  i say bucking coil, i mean a coil that acts as a magnet that can be switched on and off at the right time.  As it is a coil that is being shorted,and thus becomes an electromagnet that pushes against the rotors collapsing field just at the right time. This field also travels around the stator core,and boost the field within the secondary(generating)coil that provides the power for the globe.
So we do have a coil that is bucking both against the rotor's field and also the field of the generating coil.
-----------------------
I am using a bucking field effect between the rotor and coil B,not between coil B and coil A.

Coil B's current can flow into the cap along with coil A's current for a brief period of time,but coil A's current cannot flow into coil B at any point.
-----------------------
Question:    "Shorted to What exactly? Shorted back on itself? Because the Built in Diode will do this Half Cycle on the Fet anyway!"

No it wont,if the current flow in the coil is opposite to what it needs to be,due to a magnetic field that is opposite to that of the rotors field.
-----------------------
Question:  "Tinman says he shorts one of his coils at a particular time in his generator's cycle."

Yes,coil B is shorted for part of the rotor segments induced time.
-----------------------
Yes,there is a conduction path from coil B to the load,but no path from the load to coil B.
Coil B dose nothing until Coil A is producing a current flow,and thus S1 must be closed in order for coil B to provide current to follow that conduction path.
Without a load,coil A will lift the voltage in a cap to over 130 volts,but with coil B in operation the mosfet will blow at around 45-50 volts,as it is triggered by the reverse voltage of coil A.
-----------------------

@penno64    I put the above two lines in bold because the maximum gate - source voltage specified for the MOSFET is +/-20V, this is why I indicated the resistors in my schematic as simple means for protection.  Will you attempt some tests with your schematic?

Gyula
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 17, 2015, 01:41:23 AM
Hi Jimboot,

Your question was answered by Brad in June if you go back to his posts. See his reply to woopy (Reply #3782 on: June 22, 2015, 12:48:14 PM, page 253) for instance  where he explains that a shorted coil in the right moment works as an electromagnet and he bucks its field with the rotor field, this is what gives some extra torque in the first place and the collection of the collapsed field takes place also and steered to the puffer capacitor.  So Brad shorts stator coil B in the first place to get an increase in rotor torque.

Further quotes from Brad from his other posts:

So here is where im at with V3 of the rotary transformer. Adding the bucking coil setup did indeed increase the overall output of the system-both mechanical and electrical. When  i say bucking coil, i mean a coil that acts as a magnet that can be switched on and off at the right time.  As it is a coil that is being shorted,and thus becomes an electromagnet that pushes against the rotors collapsing field just at the right time. This field also travels around the stator core,and boost the field within the secondary(generating)coil that provides the power for the globe.
So we do have a coil that is bucking both against the rotor's field and also the field of the generating coil.
-----------------------
I am using a bucking field effect between the rotor and coil B,not between coil B and coil A.

Coil B's current can flow into the cap along with coil A's current for a brief period of time,but coil A's current cannot flow into coil B at any point.
-----------------------
Question:    "Shorted to What exactly? Shorted back on itself? Because the Built in Diode will do this Half Cycle on the Fet anyway!"

No it wont,if the current flow in the coil is opposite to what it needs to be,due to a magnetic field that is opposite to that of the rotors field.
-----------------------
Question:  "Tinman says he shorts one of his coils at a particular time in his generator's cycle."

Yes,coil B is shorted for part of the rotor segments induced time.
-----------------------
Yes,there is a conduction path from coil B to the load,but no path from the load to coil B.
Coil B dose nothing until Coil A is producing a current flow,and thus S1 must be closed in order for coil B to provide current to follow that conduction path.
Without a load,coil A will lift the voltage in a cap to over 130 volts,but with coil B in operation the mosfet will blow at around 45-50 volts,as it is triggered by the reverse voltage of coil A.
-----------------------

@penno64    I put the above two lines in bold because the maximum gate - source voltage specified for the MOSFET is +/-20V, this is why I indicated the resistors in my schematic as simple means for protection.  Will you attempt some tests with your schematic?

Gyula

What the hell.
After the turn of recent event's,everything is shot to hell anyway.
So here you go. Im sure you can work out the circuit needed from the schematic below.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Jimboot on September 17, 2015, 01:56:52 AM
Hi Jimboot,

Your question was answered by Brad in June if you go back to his posts. See his reply to woopy (Reply #3782 on: June 22, 2015, 12:48:14 PM, page 253) for instance  where he explains that a shorted coil in the right moment works as an electromagnet and he bucks its field with the rotor field, this is what gives some extra torque in the first place and the collection of the collapsed field takes place also and steered to the puffer capacitor.  So Brad shorts stator coil B in the first place to get an increase in rotor torque.

Further quotes from Brad from his other posts:

So here is where im at with V3 of the rotary transformer. Adding the bucking coil setup did indeed increase the overall output of the system-both mechanical and electrical. When  i say bucking coil, i mean a coil that acts as a magnet that can be switched on and off at the right time.  As it is a coil that is being shorted,and thus becomes an electromagnet that pushes against the rotors collapsing field just at the right time. This field also travels around the stator core,and boost the field within the secondary(generating)coil that provides the power for the globe.
So we do have a coil that is bucking both against the rotor's field and also the field of the generating coil.
-----------------------
I am using a bucking field effect between the rotor and coil B,not between coil B and coil A.

Coil B's current can flow into the cap along with coil A's current for a brief period of time,but coil A's current cannot flow into coil B at any point.
-----------------------
Question:    "Shorted to What exactly? Shorted back on itself? Because the Built in Diode will do this Half Cycle on the Fet anyway!"

No it wont,if the current flow in the coil is opposite to what it needs to be,due to a magnetic field that is opposite to that of the rotors field.
-----------------------
Question:  "Tinman says he shorts one of his coils at a particular time in his generator's cycle."

Yes,coil B is shorted for part of the rotor segments induced time.
-----------------------
Yes,there is a conduction path from coil B to the load,but no path from the load to coil B.
Coil B dose nothing until Coil A is producing a current flow,and thus S1 must be closed in order for coil B to provide current to follow that conduction path.
Without a load,coil A will lift the voltage in a cap to over 130 volts,but with coil B in operation the mosfet will blow at around 45-50 volts,as it is triggered by the reverse voltage of coil A.
-----------------------

@penno64    I put the above two lines in bold because the maximum gate - source voltage specified for the MOSFET is +/-20V, this is why I indicated the resistors in my schematic as simple means for protection.  Will you attempt some tests with your schematic?

Gyula
Thanks Gyula. I've been looking closely at the Alexander patent which does not short the output. Thanks for the references.

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Jimboot on September 17, 2015, 02:07:15 AM
Thanks Brad, very interesting design.

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: poynt99 on September 17, 2015, 02:35:29 PM
Why shot to hell?
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: verpies on September 17, 2015, 02:44:42 PM
After the turn of recent event's,everything is shot to hell anyway.
What happened?
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 17, 2015, 05:03:37 PM
Why shot to hell?

Im not going to go into details,so we will leave it at that.

I have given what i have given,and the terms that go with it are very simple.
If you do not think there is anything in it,dont bother with it-dont build it.
I am not going to be like many others and try and convince you of anything-->it is a !take it or leave it! situation.

Brad
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Vortex1 on September 17, 2015, 08:56:58 PM
Thanks Brad

I have retyped the text of the jpg that Brad posted so that we can pull out and discuss each line item and put together a timing diagram and later hopefully a schematic.

Be sure to properly quote Brad when using these statements.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Per Brad)
Quote
Operation as follows:

Current through stator winding is induced by magnetic field of rotor.

BTDC- Stator and second inductor are shorted together so as they act as one winding,

Second inductor's current flow must be so as the magnetic field induced is the opposite to that of the PM

ATDC- second inductor becomes open from stator winding and back EMF is sent to load.

Stator B's induced current flowing is also sent to the load.

At this point (ATDC) the rotors field is the same field  as that of the PM and gives rise to rotational torque due to repulsion forces.

This torque gives the RT the torque required for the power generated at stator A and also the torque increase seen in the videos when driving a load such as the fan..

Note: When the second inductor has current flowing through it the field produced in the  steel / iron core neutralises the PM's field enough so as the rotor can be pulled towards the steel stator core and not repelled by the PM's field.

Stator A acts purely as a generating stator and the current flow through the stator is from the increasing and decreasing magnetic field of he rotor segments.

This power output is additive to that of stator B and the second inductor contained in stator B.

The Rotor segment at stator B is always a North field and at stator A, the rotors field is always a south field.

(drawing) Action:  Current  flow through rotor-magnetic field is built

(drawing) Reaction: Magnetic field induced into  stator core causing a current to flow through windings and load.

Quote EMJ Counter Reaction: Repulsion force between rotor and stator causes rotation of rotor.

The Rotary Transformer effect

(drawing) Stator face on view

Stator core

Stator windings
------------------------------------------------
In the center of the stator core is as follows:

Permanent magnet

Nylon or plastic sleeve 3mm thick

Steel or iron tube - 4mm thick

Second inductor windings

Nylon or plastic sleeve 3mm thick
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me know of any typo's that need fixing.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 17, 2015, 09:53:25 PM
......
Let me know of any typo's that need fixing.


Hi Vortex1,

Thanks for typing the text, I put in bold where a typo occured if you do not mind:


"ATDC- second inductor become open from stator winding and back EMF is sent to load."   =   "becomes"

"This torque gives the RT the torque required for the power generated at stator Aand also the torqu increase seen in the videos when driving a load such as the fan."      =   "A and"  and   "torque"   

"In the center of the stator core is as folows:"   =   "follows"

I agree with discussion and creating a timing diagram and a schematic.  Maybe a bit early to ask but I am curious and would like to know where Brad may have meant the center of the stator core?
I copied a photo of a 2 pole stator core of an universal motor from one of Brad earlier videos to help visualize what kind of stator core may be under this discussion (if he means similar here of course). Do we have to drill a hole in the stator and embed a magnet?  If so, where is the center of  the stator core I wonder and sorry if this question sounds trivial...   8)

Thanks,
Gyula

EDIT:  in the meantime I figured the magnet is perhaps to be embedded into one of stator poles' center?
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Vortex1 on September 18, 2015, 01:56:43 AM
Hi Vortex1,

Thanks for typing the text, I put in bold where a typo occured if you do not mind:


"ATDC- second inductor become open from stator winding and back EMF is sent to load."   =   "becomes"

"This torque gives the RT the torque required for the power generated at stator Aand also the torqu increase seen in the videos when driving a load such as the fan."      =   "A and"  and   "torque"   

"In the center of the stator core is as folows:"   =   "follows"

I agree with discussion and creating a timing diagram and a schematic.  Maybe a bit early to ask but I am curious and would like to know where Brad may have meant the center of the stator core?
I copied a photo of a 2 pole stator core of an universal motor from one of Brad earlier videos to help visualize what kind of stator core may be under this discussion (if he means similar here of course). Do we have to drill a hole in the stator and embed a magnet?  If so, where is the center of  the stator core I wonder and sorry if this question sounds trivial...   8)

Thanks,
Gyula

EDIT:  in the meantime I figured the magnet is perhaps to be embedded into one of stator poles' center?

Thanks gyula, I made the corrections (I was in a hurry and out the door to the doctors when I posted that) but no excuses for my bad English.

Brad called the view a "face view" which means to me that if you were in place of the rotor and were facing the stator, then the hole would be dead center of the stator face.

This is where I drilled the hole on my first test motor., but from the outside drilling into the face.

I will have to make the hole a bit bigger to accommodate the extra coil and sleeves.

Thank you for your contributions.

PS to all: please be sure to credit Brad with the phrases and not me should you cut and paste them. This seems to have created a problem for somebody on the other forum.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 18, 2015, 08:30:32 PM
Hi Vortex1,

Thanks for your explanation, now it is clear for me where the magnet (with its iron tube and extra coil)  is to be placed.
I suspect the material for the steel or iron tube may matter from eddy current point of view, even though this second inductor winding (sitting on the outside of the iron tube) seems to have a pulsed operation. Of course this eddy current issue is my early speculation on this.   Should it matter, a ferrite bead could be used instead (though it may be difficult to find a suitable size).

Regarding the timing, first I think we should figure out whether the pulsed operation or rather the effect of it what the brushes insure for the rotation of the rotor (to work in an attraction mode) is just good for controlling the MOSFET switch or not.
As Brad wrote there is a Before and then an After TDC position for the rotor with respect to the second coil where the MOSFET is to be switched on and then off.
Question is whether a Hall or opto sensor should be used or the needed "control info" manifests in the normal change of the induced stator voltage from which we could derive the gate-source control voltage instead. From Brad's earlier writings in June I figure the latter case seems to work (i.e. no need for a Hall or opto sensor, I may be wrong here of course).

It is fortunate you already made a hole for a magnet earlier in a stator core, I assume it was for another test/project.
Unfortunately, I have no means in my home (in a block of flats) to build such setups due to lack of a lab, and I am now in pension. 

PS I hope your health is okay as per the doctors.  8)
Gyula
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on September 19, 2015, 11:24:22 AM
Hi Guys, In the original discussion , I don't recall any talk about drilling holes and inserting magnets.
Brad said that the only thing he wouldn't reveal was the circuit for the shorting, hence the block in his schematic.
If there were a magnet inserted in the stator core why is it not shown?
It seems like we keep getting steered away from the original set-up.
artv
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Vortex1 on September 19, 2015, 03:17:44 PM
Hi Guys, In the original discussion , I don't recall any talk about drilling holes and inserting magnets.
Brad said that the only thing he wouldn't reveal was the circuit for the shorting, hence the block in his schematic.
If there were a magnet inserted in the stator core why is it not shown?
It seems like we keep getting steered away from the original set-up.
artv

You are correct, we can never fully know if we have information or disinformation until a successful replication is accomplished. Indeed talk of the magnet came later, and there was no mention of a second coil at that particular time.

I often wondered if all of Steven Marks ramblings to Lindsay Mannix kept his gov't check to seed disinfo coming in the mail , so I often discount those email exchanges in favor of the videos for first hand info when researching the TPU.  Some of those exchanges have truth, some are fiction.

Each must decide for himself what is truth and what is fiction and choose the appropriate path of action.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: energy1234hope on September 19, 2015, 04:06:11 PM
Hi brad (tinman)
 We all would like to thank you for all your efforts over the years. You are a bloody genius at what you do. Im sorry people don't appreciate all that you have given, but being an old fart that is incapable of building bugger all, like a lot of people who have been following these sites for five or ten years in the hope of someone that is a genius will help the release of motors or transformers that will change the world. i have the greatest respect for gotoluc and i am sure you do to with knowing him for years as well, if you could just go that one step further and get him to do a replication of your rotary transformer to shut up the noise that seems to have taken over this forum over the last few years with my deepest respect to you and yours ron
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 19, 2015, 11:47:34 PM
Hi Guys, In the original discussion , I don't recall any talk about drilling holes and inserting magnets.
Brad said that the only thing he wouldn't reveal was the circuit for the shorting, hence the block in his schematic.
If there were a magnet inserted in the stator core why is it not shown?
It seems like we keep getting steered away from the original set-up.
artv

Hi Art,

While I think Brad can defend himself, please read here what he exactly said on his setup to reveal (I put in bold the text) because he deserves correctness:

"As was clearly explained right from the start. I only posted the test results and a basic schematic for measurement points only, as MH requested that i back up my claim with evidence.  I had no intention of disclosing the device and the completed schematics as a whole, but only the results shown by the device."

The quote comes from his Reply #XXXX   June 25, 2015, 12:22:24 PM    see link here:

http://overunity.com/15395/partnered-output-coils-free-energy/msg453754/#msg453754 (http://overunity.com/15395/partnered-output-coils-free-energy/msg453754/#msg453754) 

Gyula

EDIT  I erased the Reply # above I gave last night   becasue it changes at random depending on whether you are logged in (#3855 or #3857) or you are a visitor only (#3862).  The link I gave is ok and leads you to Brad's quated post.   This seems to be a forum glitch...
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Vortex1 on September 20, 2015, 04:24:57 PM
Look closely at the RTv4 schematic from Tinman's post that you referenced. Npw ask yourself this: how is critical timing information to the FET provided when the gate drive is shown coming directly from and across the very large storage capacitor.

The best we will see across this capacitor is a very slowly changing DC potential which will drop when the load is applied. This will turn the FET on or off depending on the voltage threshold achieved, but the resulting coil shorting of coil B will not be meaningfully timed to rotation, but will lag by many seconds any critical timing required.

So maybe someone can clear this up because in light of all the talk of timed shorting of coil B, the schematic supplied does not seem to be supplying that requirement.

Some of us have reasoned that the schematic may be wrong and the signal to the FET comes directly from coil A, which would make more sense as pulses are available at that point in the circuit that are somewhat timed to rotation. We have not had this issue cleared up to date.

Also at that time there was no mention of a "second coil"

Attached is Tinman's original schematic.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 20, 2015, 10:18:32 PM
Dear Vortex1,

Unfortunately, this term that Brad used: 'basic schematic for measurement points' can easily bare the lack of some wires that may have brought timing info from coil A, or can bare the lack of a second coil I think.

I agree that no critical timing info could come from the storage capacitor which normally filters out AC fluctuations. This is why I re-edited Brad"s schematic to remedy this issue and also showed MOSFET switch control possibilities in previous page when member penno64 posed the question on Brad's coil shorting circuit.

Penno64 showed his own schematic version in which the gate-source of the MOSFET is also biased by the stored DC voltage in the capacitor but it is biased via one of the stator coils i.e. a DC source and a pulsed AC source superposed would control the MOSFET switch. I wrote about this in Reply #7, previous page. 

Of course, now that Brad mentioned a second coil, we have to consider it and devise a new schematic proposal.

Of course, I understand the frustration Brad's incomplete "basic schematic" causes,  I have also been frustrated.

The problem is that Brad (who could be the first person to clear the issues up) wrote what he wrote recently in his Reply #18.

So we have to depend on his latest description that includes the so far "hidden" magnet, the iron tube, their position and a second inductor winding and all the previous info he gave mainly in June in the 'Partnered output coil' thread, plus his videos. This is from where we have to restart to "crack" this setup.

I wrote some thoughts in my Reply #22 above.  To continue the 'cracking', I would need opinions on how the two coils are meant to be connected,  based on what Brad wrote I quote:

"BTDC- Stator and second inductor are shorted together so as they act as one winding."

Does this mean that the two coils are in series connection and the MOSFET shorts both of them as if they were a single coil?

(Another possibility would be that the two coils gets parallel connected when  the MOSFET is on  i.e.  say the second coil "shorts" the stator coil via the switch, this would be a strange meaning for sure.)

Knowing this correctly helps better figure out a new shematic.

Gyula
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on September 21, 2015, 02:19:44 AM
Wouldn't they have to be paralleled , to act as one?
Series , the first is always different than the ,2nd.
artv
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Vortex1 on September 21, 2015, 03:02:30 AM
Dear Gyula

I am in agreement with your thoughts in your last post. The schematics you and penno64 offered look viable and are somewhat similar to what I posted elsewhere. In light of the new info of the second coil, I am working on a few new schematics which I will post when I am satisfied that they seem reasonable.

Another thing to ponder is Brad's use of the words BTDC and ATDC. These are terms used for IC engines to denote timing, but how do they apply to a universal motor when each small angular advancement of the rotor to a new commutator contact represents a new reset of conditions, unlike an IC engine?

 As an example, a rotor with six poles would achieve magnetic TDC every 60 degrees of rotation, while an IC engine achieves mechanical TDC every 360 degrees of shaft rotation.


 It would be better to speak of a timing diagram based on degrees of rotation, unless the terms "Before top dead center" and "after top dead center" can be made meaningful to us.

If the terms BTDC and ATDC refer somehow to one complete revolution of the shaft as in an IC engine, then how  is the timing alignment point to be understood with respect to the stators and rotor?
 
Kind regards, Vortex1 / ION
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: poynt99 on September 21, 2015, 02:30:59 PM
I'm pretty sure he means this:

BTDC=before top dead center
ATDC=after top dead center

"TDC" being when the magnet and armature are in alignment.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gotoluc on September 21, 2015, 05:55:58 PM
I also understand it like poynt has posted above but would explain TDC as below.

"TDC" would be where each rotor core section locks to the stator magnet.

Luc
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Vortex1 on September 21, 2015, 06:23:03 PM
Just wanted to clear that issue up, I also agree that TDC is when the rotor flux for a given rotor segment is in complete alignment with the stator flux.

This occurs X times per one shaft revolution, x being the number of rotor poles (or commutator segments).

Thanks for your input guys. We are on the same page so now it's back to getting the timing for the shorting transistor and the actual shorting circuit.

I'll attempt a few schematics that might address what was meant by "shorting" i.e did Brad mean "connecting " one coil to another at a specific time (with an FET) or did he mean providing a low resistance path (FET) for the induced voltage in one or both coils at a specific time.

With only one FET switch as seen in the videos, it could get tricky.

Here is a first cut schematic which just shorts the "second coil" to stator B coil.

I straightened out some of the "tangle" to make the schematic more readable from an electronic schematic conventional viewpoint.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 22, 2015, 12:34:51 PM
Hi Vortex1,

Thanks for the schematic, looks good to me.  This version connects the second winding in parallel with stator coil B   i.e. I would say the second coil quasi shorts stator coil B because I assume the second coil has less L inductance in practice than stator coil B (winding space for the second coil is limited).  Nevertheless the 'short' does not represent a really low impedence like a MOSFET's on channel would insure for instance but this may not be a drawback.
Of course, some protection means are to be provided for the gate-source electrodes of the MOSFET to limit any control voltage within +/- 20V (spec for most MOSFETs including the IRF540 Brad used),  though these means are not needed to include in the first cut schematic.  8)

Gyula
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Vortex1 on September 22, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
Hi Vortex1,

Thanks for the schematic, looks good to me.  This version connects the second winding in parallel with stator coil B   i.e. I would say the second coil quasi shorts stator coil B because I assume the second coil has less L inductance in practice than stator coil B (winding space for the second coil is limited).  Nevertheless the 'short' does not represent a really low impedence like a MOSFET's on channel would insure for instance but this may not be a drawback.
Of course, some protection means are to be provided for the gate-source electrodes of the MOSFET to limit any control voltage within +/- 20V (spec for most MOSFETs including the IRF540 Brad used),  though these means are not needed to include in the first cut schematic.  8)

Gyula

Agreed. The first component  I always solder in is a protection Zener gate to source.. I also keep some aluminum foil shorting the leads of the FET until I'm ready to fire up the circuit and after the protection Zener is installed.. I can't remember the last time I destroyed a FET. I left the protection Zener off for clarity, but it is always installed in my tests.

Note that the right hand side of the circuit can be flipped, putting the diode and switch at the top + of the capacitor and it will be electrically equivalent to the original. (for additional clarity and convention, but not necessary.) It does give a solid ground line across the circuit for probing with the scope.

With 3 coils we have many possible combinations of coil phasing. I usually name the stator leads that came from the brushes as "Stator Brush lead A" and "Stator Brush lead B" to convey this phasing  information to others, but did not put it on the drawings at this time since we have not been given any phasing info by Brad.

Regards, Vortex1 / ION
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 22, 2015, 10:38:07 PM
Hey guys,


Thanks for the input and ideas.

Please consider only the components from Brad's videos.

Will be getting a look at that type of veroboard to see which way the pcb tracks run if any.

I have spent hours with only the components shown in the videos, trying all combinations and connections, with no success.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 22, 2015, 11:40:45 PM
Hey Brad,

Thanks for the bone, but it was  ............

Guys, the videos clearly show only two stator coils wired directly to the PCB with no other connections. I see no other coil ?

Also, in one of the videos, Brad says that the only mod to the motor was to ease off the spring
tension to the brush.

Is it possible to use the voltage from one coil to turn on OR off the mosfet used to short the other coil?

Penno

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: poynt99 on September 23, 2015, 02:10:57 AM
penno,

There are hidden components under the pcb and in the motor.

It's unfortunate you've wasted so much time on this thinking all has been revealed.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Magluvin on September 23, 2015, 07:48:22 AM
From the little I know about this subject, something is strange.

What I find interesting is the fact that the motor runs at all with just input to the armature.

How is it that the armature induces the stators and have motor action???

Like when we have a rotor with mags and when we load the stator coils, the rotor should be dragged down, not keep going. ???

Mags

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Jimboot on September 23, 2015, 08:33:19 AM
From the little I know about this subject, something is strange.

What I find interesting is the fact that the motor runs at all with just input to the armature.

How is it that the armature induces the stators and have motor action???

Like when we have a rotor with mags and when we load the stator coils, the rotor should be dragged down, not keep going. ???

Mags
Well myself and others inc TK , Luc, Slider can all get it to spin by only powering the armature as well as reduce Pin when powering a load. We didnt have the the mag in the stator with the extra coil though.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 23, 2015, 12:37:47 PM
Hey Brad,

Thanks for the bone, but it was  ............

Guys, the videos clearly show only two stator coils wired directly to the PCB with no other connections. I see no other coil ?

Also, in one of the videos, Brad says that the only mod to the motor was to ease off the spring
tension to the brush.

Is it possible to use the voltage from one coil to turn on OR off the mosfet used to short the other coil?

Penno

The circuit i provided and the components you see were only put forward to show the measurement points-->this was explained many many times on the thread the measurements were carried out on. At no point in time(and i also made this very clear) was i going to provide the full workings or schematic for my setup. Piece by piece threw a period of a couple of years,i have shown my progress on the RT,and the effects i was finding as i went along.

Not much interest was shown until it all came together. Then it all went south,so that is where i left it as far as public display went. I am happy with what i have,but there is not much i can do with it ATM,and in the turn of resent event's,things just got that bit harder-but shit happens.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 23, 2015, 01:07:56 PM
Hey Brad,

Thanks for what you have given and shown. It was my bad assuming what was shown in the vids was all there was. No problem.

I do hope things turn around for you.

I think the time has come to give this free energy stuff a big rest.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 23, 2015, 01:10:20 PM
From the little I know about this subject, something is strange.

What I find interesting is the fact that the motor runs at all with just input to the armature.

How is it that the armature induces the stators and have motor action???

 

Mags

Quote
Like when we have a rotor with mags and when we load the stator coils, the rotor should be dragged down, not keep going. ???

Much like walking down steps while gaining altitude at the same time.

people just will not spend enough time to try and answer these questions-they like it all handed to them on a silver platter. The first part of the operation is simple-the magnetic field on the rotor is attracted to the steel cores of the stator. The part no one can answer is this-why dose the RT speed up when a load is placed across the stator winding's?. This should cause an apposing magnetic field,and the rotor should stop. Thing is,it dose, if the current is drawn from the stator coil in one direction. But if the current is drawn from the stator coil in the other direction,then the RT speeds up<-- this is the part no one can answer-why. The answer is quite simple if you take a close look at what is happening within the workings of the RT.

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 23, 2015, 01:19:16 PM
Hey Brad,

Thanks for what you have given and shown. It was my bad assuming what was shown in the vids was all there was. No problem.

I do hope things turn around for you.



Quote
I think the time has come to give this free energy stuff a big rest.

It's not so much  !time to give it a rest!,it's more a case of who had what,and where has it gone now?.

Anyway,some one will make it work,and that some one will be the one who takes the time to work out why we can draw power from the stator coil that shows the opposite effect that the lorentz force should dictate.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: verpies on September 23, 2015, 03:59:16 PM
From the little I know about this subject, something is strange.
What I find interesting is the fact that the motor runs at all with just input to the armature.
How is it that the armature induces the stators and have motor action???
You should not find it strange because it is a simple case of an electromagnet (rotor) attracting some soft iron (the stator).
If you have ever seen a magnet attract a steel nail, then you're familiar with this effect.

Take a look at a diagram of the rotor electromagnets below.  Half of the segments produce south poles and the other half - north poles.
Imagine a radial line that separates the south poles from the north poles.  The position of this line is determined by the angular position of the brushes and the way the rotor is wired (with an angular offset or without).  In Fig.2 this is the blue line.

Now if there is a soft steel stator pole anywhere nearby then the rotor will be attracted to it in such a way that the middle of the group of e.g. south poles is the closest to it.
The middle of the pole group lies on another radial line, that is perpendicular to the aforementioned line dividing the south and north poles.  Let's call it the "middle line".  In Fig.2 this is the orange line.

Depending on the position of the brushes, the middle line will be at an angular offset to the soft steel of the stator pole and then the rotor will experience a torque that will attempt to align that middle line to the center of the stator pole. If the brushes are positioned so that the middle line is aligned with the stator pole then the rotor will not rotate, because it will be already aligned for maximum attraction to the soft steel of the stator pole.

Tinman's variation on the scheme adds an embedded magnet* inside one of the stator poles.
This magnet is polarized in such a way as to counteract the attraction of the rotor to the soft steel of the rotor's pole, in other words the magnet is polarized in such way as to repel the rotor's middle line.


* Tinman's scheme also adds a soft iron tube and an additional embedded winding which generates magnetic flux opposite to the magnet's flux.
AFAIK both stators windings are not powered externally and the embedded winding inside one of the stator poles is not powered either.  Instead all 3 windings act as generator windings, which constitute electric energy output of this device, from the point of view of external terminals.
Only the rotor is powered externally.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Magluvin on September 25, 2015, 01:21:02 AM
Much like walking down steps while gaining altitude at the same time.

people just will not spend enough time to try and answer these questions-they like it all handed to them on a silver platter. The first part of the operation is simple-the magnetic field on the rotor is attracted to the steel cores of the stator. The part no one can answer is this-why dose the RT speed up when a load is placed across the stator winding's?. This should cause an apposing magnetic field,and the rotor should stop. Thing is,it dose, if the current is drawn from the stator coil in one direction. But if the current is drawn from the stator coil in the other direction,then the RT speeds up<-- this is the part no one can answer-why. The answer is quite simple if you take a close look at what is happening within the workings of the RT.

Hey Brad

I had read Verpies post first. So I get the attraction method.  But you hit the nail on the head and answered my question by just letting me know that applying a load to the stator doesnt impede motor action.  Il see if I can figure it out.  Thanks ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Magluvin on September 25, 2015, 01:29:07 AM
Hey Brad

I had read Verpies post first. So I get the attraction method.  But you hit the nail on the head and answered my question by just letting me know that applying a load to the stator doesnt impede motor action.  Il see if I can figure it out.  Thanks ;)

Mags

Romero used magnets behind his stators also.  ;)   Not the same config, but maybe there is a common answer.

Mags
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Magluvin on September 25, 2015, 01:31:57 AM
Thanks for the thorough explanation Verpies.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 25, 2015, 06:37:02 AM
Hey Brad

I had read Verpies post first. So I get the attraction method.  But you hit the nail on the head and answered my question by just letting me know that applying a load to the stator doesnt impede motor action.  Il see if I can figure it out.  Thanks ;)

Mags
Thats correct. In fact, it increases motor action when the generating coil is loaded-and by a large amount-while at the same time , power consumption decreases by at least half.
If you can work out why that is, then you will work out the rest of it.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Magluvin on September 25, 2015, 07:15:35 AM
Thats correct. In fact, it increases motor action when the generating coil is loaded-and by a large amount-while at the same time , power consumption decreases by at least half.
If you can work out why that is, then you will work out the rest of it.

Hey Brad

Thanks.  Will ponder that for a bit. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Reiyuki on September 25, 2015, 09:05:24 AM
The first part of the operation is simple-the magnetic field on the rotor is attracted to the steel cores of the stator. The part no one can answer is this-why dose the RT speed up when a load is placed across the stator winding's?. This should cause an apposing magnetic field,and the rotor should stop. Thing is,it dose, if the current is drawn from the stator coil in one direction. But if the current is drawn from the stator coil in the other direction,then the RT speeds up<-- this is the part no one can answer-why. The answer is quite simple if you take a close look at what is happening within the workings of the RT.

I'll take a stab at it, the answer is basically 2-part:

First, the magnet creates an opposed magnetic field in the iron stator as it approaches (the reason why the stator is attracted to the magnet in the first place).  When you apply a load, it must first counter this temporary magnetic field before being affected by the rotor's field.

Second, when you short the coil, you are saturating the stator, changing its permeability and thus its attraction to the magnet.  The magnet attracts the stator until TDC, then it 'disappears' and slips out because of the change in permeability.

So, a strong load applied near TDC saturates the stator and lessens the attraction between magnet and stator.  Ironically making it more efficient the more load you put on it, to a certain point.

 ;) ;)
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: verpies on September 25, 2015, 08:17:33 PM
... applying a load to the stator doesn't impede motor action.  Il see if I can figure it out.  Thanks ;)
Actually when external DC power supply is applied only to the rotor, its rotational direction can reverse at some loads applied to the stator.
Direction dependent on load - how do you like them apples?
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on September 26, 2015, 02:02:10 AM
This site is fucked some kind of malware is preventing me from mreading and posting
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on September 26, 2015, 02:03:17 AM
well apparently that worked
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on September 26, 2015, 02:14:54 AM
Does it matter which way a coil is wound?
If a CW coil sees a north field it creates a south opposing field , right?
If a CW coil sees a south field it creates a north opposing field right?
If the connections can be reversed at the right time , because CW and CCW are the same dependant on field, you should get assistance instead of opposition, right?
artv
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 26, 2015, 02:28:23 AM
Actually when external DC power supply is applied only to the rotor, its rotational direction can reverse at some loads applied to the stator.
Direction dependent on load - how do you like them apples?

Actually no.
No load placed on the stator coil(inductive,capacitive or resistive)or a combination of either will reverse the direction of the rotor. The only way to reverse the direction of the rotor is by altering the timing of the brushes. Even reversing the polarity to the rotor will not change the direction of the rotors rotation.

The question on how and why placing a load on the stator coil increases torque and RPM while reducing current draw to the RT is based around my first model dated back 2 1/2 - 3 years ago,where there is no embedded magnet in the stator core. that PM in the stator core is only to increase mechanical output and efficiency,and has nothing to do with the effect being created within the RT.

Hint
In a standard transformer you have two motions.
1-The flow of current
2-Moving/increasing,decreasing magnetic fields.
With the RT we add physical movement of mass.
As EMJ would say-Action/reaction/counter reaction.
So here we have created an imbalance within the system,where with a standard transformer you have restricted that imbalance by removing the physical motion of mass.

Rather than trying to lift your self off the ground by pulling on your own boot straps,you would be far better off putting your boot on some one else's foot and lifting.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 26, 2015, 02:31:38 AM
Does it matter which way a coil is wound?
If a CW coil sees a north field it creates a south opposing field , right?
If a CW coil sees a south field it creates a north opposing field right?
If the connections can be reversed at the right time , because CW and CCW are the same dependant on field, you should get assistance instead of opposition, right?
artv
No.
No matter what way your coil is wound,it will always build an apposing field when a magnetic field approaches it,and an attracting field when a magnetic field is leaving it-->when that coil has a load placed on it of course
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on September 26, 2015, 11:07:20 AM
No.
No matter what way your coil is wound,it will always build an apposing field when a magnetic field approaches it,and an attracting field when a magnetic field is leaving it-->when that coil has a load placed on it of course


Good info. ;)
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gyulasun on September 26, 2015, 11:21:08 AM

...
The question on how and why placing a load on the stator coil increases torque and RPM while reducing current draw to the RT is based around my first model dated back 2 1/2 - 3 years ago,where there is no embedded magnet in the stator core. that PM in the stator core is only to increase mechanical output and efficiency,and has nothing to do with the effect being created within the RT.

Hint
In a standard transformer you have two motions.
1-The flow of current
2-Moving/increasing,decreasing magnetic fields.
With the RT we add physical movement of mass.
As EMJ would say-Action/reaction/counter reaction.
So here we have created an imbalance within the system,where with a standard transformer you have restricted that imbalance by removing the physical motion of mass.

Rather than trying to lift your self off the ground by pulling on your own boot straps,you would be far better off putting your boot on some one else's foot and lifting.

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the hints. 

Quote
  So here we have created an imbalance within the system,where with a standard transformer you have restricted that imbalance by removing the physical motion of mass.
 


I would have two questions here:

1) Am I correct by saying that in your recent RT the created imbalance is further enhanced by disengaging the repel flux from the embedded magnet at the right moment?

2) Considering a solid state version for your recent RT,  the lack of the physical motion of mass would cause the same lack of imbalance, right? If yes, then have you found some 'tricks' to solve this, is it possible?

Thanks,
Gyula
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 26, 2015, 01:48:15 PM
Hi Brad,

Thanks for the hints. 
 

I would have two questions here:

1) Am I correct by saying that in your recent RT the created imbalance is further enhanced by disengaging the repel flux from the embedded magnet at the right moment?

2) Considering a solid state version for your recent RT,  the lack of the physical motion of mass would cause the same lack of imbalance, right? If yes, then have you found some 'tricks' to solve this, is it possible?

Thanks,
Gyula

I have not yet found a way to make a solid state version of the RT work,as the magnetic field must be in motion,not just rising and falling in magnitude. In the RT the motion increases as the magnitude decreases-this is the gaining altitude while walking down step's.

In order to make a solid state version,you would have to design a transformer where the magnetic field is not only rising and falling in magnitude,but also has motion throughout the transformer body. It would be my guess that (if it actually works as claimed)the TPU works based around the motion of a magnetic field,not the rise and fall in amplitude.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on September 26, 2015, 03:24:44 PM
Hey Brad,

One final question if I may -

In this video at 2:35 ish you state

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpcqMPvcoW0

the only thing I've done to the motor is "remove some of the spring tension off the brushes"

Other than separate the stator coils, is that statement entirely true?

I would understand if you do not wish to answer.

Regards, Penno
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on September 26, 2015, 03:59:09 PM
Hey Brad,

One final question if I may -

In this video at 2:35 ish you state

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpcqMPvcoW0

the only thing I've done to the motor is "remove some of the spring tension off the brushes"

Other than separate the stator coils, is that statement entirely true?

I would understand if you do not wish to answer.

Regards, Penno
The information given in that video is only what i wanted the public to hear.
It is good to see some used there brain and copied the videos.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: seychelles on September 27, 2015, 03:41:36 PM
Hi TINman you are right on the solid state rt.. check my CRESCENDO MEG back few months i posted..
it is all there..ready to be wired up..'easy mieen ' mearcat adv
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: seychelles on November 05, 2015, 02:42:41 AM
hi all i am back in oz and if anybody got a job for me in perth i will put you in my will.
now here is an idea that i have not tested but will. this coil will by wound on the stator coil of
this motor you guys are testing. this is to reduce the back emf hopefully increasing
efficiency..
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: massive on November 05, 2015, 08:32:34 PM

if the coil is short circuited then it would have to behave like a shade ring
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: minnie on November 05, 2015, 09:03:04 PM



 Oh,seychelles,you are a little gem!
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: citfta on November 05, 2015, 10:23:40 PM
Thats correct. In fact, it increases motor action when the generating coil is loaded-and by a large amount-while at the same time , power consumption decreases by at least half.
If you can work out why that is, then you will work out the rest of it.

I am pretty sure I know why that is.  Is it ok to post my thoughts on this here?  I have to leave for a meeting in a while but I can post my thoughts later this evening.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: citfta on November 06, 2015, 04:34:05 PM
Well I don't see any objections to me posting my thoughts about the motor current going down when a load is placed on the stator coil so I guess I can go ahead and post my thoughts.

To understand what is going on you first have to understand how a shunt type DC motor works.  I realize a lot of you probably already know some or maybe most of this but I will review to make it easier to follow my thoughts.  In normal use a DC shunt wound motor has a current applied to the field (stator) coils.  When armature voltage is applied the interacting magnetic fields cause the armature to rotate.  At the beginning of the rotation the armature current is only limited by the resistance of the armature.  As the armature speed begins to increase the magnetic field from the field coils begin to generate a voltage in the armature coils that opposes the applied voltage.  This is what is normally called BEMF or CEMF.  As the armature speed gets higher the BEMF goes higher also.  At a high enough speed the BEMF limits the current through the armature to the point there is only enough current flowing through the armature to overcome the friction losses and power the load.  I realize that on a lot of OU type forums BEMF is considered the enemy that must be somehow overcome.  In fact the BEMF limits the current and controls the speed of the motor.

Now what would happen if there were no current flowing through the stator coils?  There would be almost no BEMF generated and the motor would have very little torque.  Also the current will be much higher than when there is a field produced by the stator coils.   In the small motors like are being worked with in this thread there is a small amount of residual magnetism left in the stator poles to allow the rotor to rotate.  Also the armature coils are wound with wire of a small gauge which limits the current through the armature.

In large motors if the field current is lost the armature current can go up to thousands of amps or at least until something blows like a fuse or breaker.  In industrial motor controllers a sensing circuit will cut off the armature voltage if field current is lost for some reason.

In the motor Brad is showing in his video he has one stator coil shorted if I understand correctly.  This allows current to be induced in that coil which in turn produces a magnetic field to oppose the field from the armature and thus allow the motor to operate.  However since there is only one field coil energized the BEMF is weak and therefore the torque is weak and the current draw is higher than normal.

When he connects the other stator coil to a load now current is allowed to flow in that stator coil which causes the BEMF to go up.  This limits the armature current even more and creates more torque from the motor.  Thus we see the armature current go down when a load is applied to the second stator coil.

It appears he also has some other things going on with his circuit board that enhances this effect but I think basically the reason the armature current drops is because of the energizing of the second stator coil which increases the BEMF.

Brad, if I have a mistaken idea about this feel free to say so.  And if you don't want to say anymore than just that I am mistaken that is OK too.  Just trying to answer the question you posed.  By the way I think this is an ingenious way to get more power from a motor and make the motor more efficient at the same time.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on November 06, 2015, 11:11:34 PM
 In normal use a DC shunt wound motor has a current applied to the field (stator) coils.
Hi Carrol,
I don't have an understanding of this. In order to have current you need R and V correct? (ohms law)?
 You have to supply voltage to get the current? (correct)

When armature voltage is applied the interacting magnetic fields cause the armature to rotate.
But tinman only uses one supply does he not?

I only connect a battery to the brushes and get rotation, I don't feed anything to the field windings, but yet they put out a voltage source, which can power a load, albeit alot less than I put in.

The single supply must make the rotor appear as constantly changing fields, as a result constantly changing fields in the stator ,but timed perfectly to cause rotation ??

I'll reread your post try to figure it out.
Thanks artv
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: citfta on November 07, 2015, 01:34:48 AM
Hi artv,

The armature rotating is changing the field to some extent as the brushes are continually making contact with a different set of segments and therefore a different set of coils.  There is probably some transformer action going on between the windings but I think most of the current coming from the stator windings is because the armature coils moving past the stator coils are acting like a generator.  I am in the process of looking for a universal motor so I can do some more testing of this idea myself.  I am pretty sure there is more to this than what I am aware of.

If you have a universal motor to work with try shorting one stator coil and drawing power from the other one.  The shorted one should cause the armature to have more torque and more stable speed and thus allow you to draw more power from the second stator coil.  This is only a guess on my part so I could be pretty wrong about this idea.

Carroll
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: massive on November 07, 2015, 08:12:27 PM

seychelles diagram is the same as a fly back transformer , the secondary is open so no opposition to the primary . 
a motor / generator being a rotating transformer , theres also the air gap like a FBT


 S1270003a.jpg (83.01 kB, 450x800 - viewed 380 times.)

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: seychelles on November 08, 2015, 03:59:50 AM
massive the idea came to me on the 5 nov in a flash..yes u r correct it is the same as a flyback transformer.
the idea is to divide the back emf into segments hence may be reducing its effect..
it has not been tested by me yet i though some one out there will be eager.
i am back home but not allow to experiment in my own garage. dictator at home..
but i will succeed in inventing my free energy machine..i repeat this a thousand times everyday..
this circuit can be used in any circuit that requires the reduction of the back emf..so
i propose the the stator of  a washing machine motor..or the rotor..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdeKvp-AVuw
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on November 09, 2015, 11:05:11 AM
If you have a universal motor to work with try shorting one stator coil and drawing power from the other one.  The shorted one should cause the armature to have more torque and more stable speed and thus allow you to draw more power from the second stator coil.  This is only a guess on my part so I could be pretty wrong about this idea.
 Hi Carroll, I gave that a try ,but it didn't make any difference.
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to have a magnet inserted in the core of the field winding ,maybe that's why?
One thing I did see was ,which I didn't know was possible, was that a voltage can be produced by spinning the armature with a drill , take the starts of the field coils connect them to the brushes and the ends of the coils is your output.
I was under the impression that there had to be a magnetic field present in order to produce voltage. Apparently I was wrong.
It was small 60 microvoltts, but I wonder if the fields were rewound with a much finer guage and more turns?
artv 
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on November 10, 2015, 12:16:19 AM
Wrong again, You don't even have to spin it.
I connected a cap bank to the ends of the field coils,(with a diode) and they are still charging (12hrs), slow but sure.
The only input is making the physical connections.
How do the caps charge? It's not recovery charge,(they were dead).
I do have a rotor ,with magnets on it close by, but it isn't turning.
How can spinning copper winds in the presence of stationary copper winds ,create a magnetic field without the magnets?
Or is the nearby field interacting with the coils?
artv

Sorry I spun it initially , but then realized ,it kept charging without it.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on November 12, 2015, 10:29:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK3JOlY0V8Y&feature=youtu.be&t=386

from 13:30

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on November 12, 2015, 11:19:14 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK3JOlY0V8Y&feature=youtu.be&t=386

from 13:30

It is good to see some one is finally on to it.
Listen from 20:00 when he adds the loads-one a short,and one a lamp.
Sound familiar ?.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on November 12, 2015, 01:57:09 PM

Its obvious that Murray has this down, 45 years of playing around this concept tends to have that effect on the researcher.  This concept, while similar to what you have shared, is not the same, it would be wise of you to point that out.  In all honesty, its not a good idea to suggest that the technologies have anything in common, if for no other reason, the ideas which motivated the building of your device and that which inspired his device are totally different.


The sound you referred to doesn't ring any bells for me.  From your comment it seems as if you are suggesting we hear something akin to acceleration which one experiences in replications of your RT, this is not the case in the Murray demonstration.  This more than likely because his machine is operated at a fixed speed, by an external machine.  Add to this the fact that we are oblivious to the inner layout and relations between the various components and systems inside his machine.  A comparison between his setup and yours is moot.


What we can gather from his presentation is that he knows exactly what hes doing, we cannot make such a claim......that being said.......shouldn't folks be following his lead?




Regards

Incorrect.
He has a prime mover and generator separate,where as mine is one complete unit.
I know exactly how his generator works as i have the blue prints for it,and when you add the motor in the mix,you basically have the RT. He is missing one vital action that relies on one vital piece-but other than that,they !are! the same in that they work on the same principle.

You have done this on a number of occasions Erfinder,thinking you know how things work. But you cant know how the RT work's,as i have not disclosed the full workings of it. So please refrain from insisting you know how my stuff work's-when you do not.

Brad
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gotoluc on November 12, 2015, 03:41:12 PM
It is good to see some one is finally on to it.
Listen from 20:00 when he adds the loads-one a short,and one a lamp.
Sound familiar ?.

Yes, it makes the same sound as your V3 RT when you activate the switch to power the load.

Could you point out where I could get a blueprint of his design

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on November 13, 2015, 12:27:29 AM
Seriously........



        1.  That the Rotary Transformer exists.....(the real one, with all the bells and whistles....WORKING and driving a load....)
        2.  An exact replication of Jim Murray's machine the "Transforming Generator" (a worthy name, not just catchy title), with your modifications.  (you have a history of modifying devices you don't understand...... this is not a strength.....)




Regards

Quote
Uh hello?  I said "his machine is operated at a fixed speed by an external machine."  That's what I said, what my statement means, since you obviously didn't comprehend what I stated,  is that he's using an external prime mover!

Yes,and i was pointing out that even so,they are close to the same,where i have merged the two.
I comprehended what you said quite clearly,but i was making sure that others here understand that there is not much difference as you tried to make claim to.

Quote
There is no doubt in my mind that you "think" you know "exactly" how his generator works.  You have a history yourself of "thinking" you know how other researchers works function.


No-i know how it work's. As i stated,i have the blue print's.
What history might that be?-please post example.

Quote
In my opinion there is more than that, but this isn't about my opinion its about what you "think" you know about another individuals research.

I get the feeling that you cant put 2 and 2 together some times EF.

Quote
The sad truth is that you refuse to accept that the man has no interest in doing what you "think" you are doing, and or are going to do. 
So you just hold on to that vital piece, or share it with him, as you saw in the video, he desperately needs that which you "think" you have.

What i think i have is what i have. I also have no interest in what others do not have.

Quote
You haven't demonstrated that you know how things work either...What you have demonstrated is that your thinking can be influenced by those who speak with confidence and authority, this we have all witnessed several times.....after they are finished with you, what you think you know morphs into what you thought you knew.....I think...lol..... this is a strength....not a weakness...just saying


I bow to no man,and i am not influenced by anyone. I stand by what i say and think,and you only have to read threads like the partnered output coils thread to see that.
Im not sure what you have been reading,but you really do have it all screw'd up EF.

Quote
Guilty as charged.....I think I know how things work......AND?

That is the difference between !think! and know. As you have yet to show anything out of the ordinary,then it is clear that your thinking is wrong.

Quote
I digress, this isn't about the know nots '(I'm in that group), it's about you and your superior knowledge, your deep understanding of Nature and her forces.  An understanding which inspired the creation of a super machine dubbed the Rotary Transformer.  I will be the first to admit, it's got a real catchy title......however, since the only thing being presented is a catchy title, I call into question the actual existence of an actual device.  So no it's not that I think I know how your machine works, I don't care how you "think" your machine works, nor do I care how you think I think your machine works.  What I think is the claimed device, not the one being replicated, doesn't exist.

Yes-and motor vehicles are just an elusion too.

Quote
The only real response to this is to demonstrate:

Guess you missed the boat on that one EF.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Jimboot on November 13, 2015, 09:19:06 AM
Erfinder & Tinman you have BOTH taught me a lot. Both your builds are awesome and I strongly suggest you collaborate sometime. A rising tide floats all boats.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on November 13, 2015, 10:35:06 AM
yawn......(stretching.....)

Sorry,i got that wrong.
You must have been sleeping :D--sorry for waking you.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on November 13, 2015, 10:48:37 AM
Erfinder & Tinman you have BOTH taught me a lot. Both your builds are awesome and I strongly suggest you collaborate sometime. A rising tide floats all boats.

Not a steel one with holes in the bottom of the hull.
It just pi**es me of no end when some one decides they know how my machines work,and insist that i have it wrong. I know how it work's,and spent years working on it to put all the pieces together.
All the answers are in my video's from the beginings of the LAG ,right up to the RT's final version.

There was also some one else looking into the workings of the RT(that only 3 people knew about),and as far as he got,i had everything correct except one small thing in regards to the circuit--the reason the mosfets kept blowing. This some one is some one no one on any forum would have stood against.

Im sorry Jim,but i will not have some self acclaimed man of wisdom tell me what i know and what i dont.


Brad.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: shylo on November 13, 2015, 11:04:11 PM
Does the time it takes to build charge in a coil, the quicker the better?
I think so, charging faster, more discharge for the same time frame.
And when does lenz kick in , at max flux density, or somewhere in-between?
Just trying to use the lenz for driving the rotation.
artv
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on November 14, 2015, 02:09:08 AM
Is this an attempt at poking fun?  You trying to make a joke?  No....this is you trying to say that my work is hole ridden steel....cute.....real cute.

....You might want to go over the posts.  I'm not suggesting that you have anything wrong.  I told you I don't care.  Your years of hands on are of no real interest to me either.  I appreciate your effort, and am only interested in your connection with the material.  What I want and expect from you is not what your other peers want and expect from you.  I am not nor have I bashed your effort, what I question I have already made clear.

Your peers not your best buds, your peers, not to be confused with fans, your peers are not finding those "answers" in your videos from the beginnings of the LAG up to the RT's finial version.  If the "answers" were in those videos, the forum would be likened to a stirred up ant nest.....you hear what we hear when we enter the thread.....yes....that's the sound of one hand clapping....accompanied by the occasional cricket chirp.

You are awesome, you really think that you saying what you will not have will stop me from expressing my opinion, that stuff you are drinking or smoking is potent.  What's up with the labels?  "Self proclaimed (acclaimed is not the proper term...just saying....) man of wisdom" coming from?  Have I labeled you?  I told you I am not interested in what you think you know and what you don't.  Secret alliances, only the select among you can know what I think I know .....bullshit.....No one would question my master...?  Name drop, damnit....grow a pair, maybe we have the same guru.  The whole "refer to my videos trip is so old.....its 2015, you're better than this.

We can go back and forth all day, but this thread is about "Tinman's coil shorting", I recommend you ignore me and post on the topic which was made in honor of you......




Regards

Quote
Brad, can I call you Brad, its better to be pissed off than pissed on, well....guess that's relative huh....if getting pissed on is your thing or not

You are a sick man,and i wish to have nothing more to do with you.
Some told me some time back that you are a couple of cows short in the top paddock,and your words speak volumes.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Jimboot on November 14, 2015, 02:41:48 AM
or not
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: gotoluc on November 14, 2015, 08:39:24 AM
Getting closer, I think I just need to make the shorting circuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoL9-j0k8U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoL9-j0k8U)

Luc
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: synchro1 on November 14, 2015, 05:23:42 PM
@Erfinder,

These two videos may help answer your question:

Coil shorting by Woopyjump:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5BxwkvCaIg

Shorted coil speed up by Doug Konzen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaaEdGPO7C8

Shorting Konzen's magnet backed ferrite core coil at TDC would generate Woopyjump's voltage spike and propel the rotor with additional force from a GAP effect!

Here're the two effects (loosely) combined by kEhYo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UlwdLXO3AI
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: synchro1 on November 14, 2015, 10:56:08 PM
kEhYo's ferrite core backing magnets are in attraction to the rotor magnet. At TDC the coil energizes to mask the attraction and allow the rotor magnet to pass. While the coil is energized, I believe kEyHo begins to interrupt the power with a long series of mini shorts, sending the power spikes back to a storage capacitor. The DMM in the video appears to read the voltage on this shorted coil capacitor.

This is not exactly what I described above, but interesting nevertheless. Use your imagination and you may find a key to help understand how Tinman has perhaps achieved Overunity.

I sent kEhYo77 a personal message and asked him to look at my comments to make sure I'm not misrepresenting his work.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: kEhYo77 on November 15, 2015, 07:25:05 AM
Hi synchro1

In my shorting video

A Hall sensor triggers a MOSFET transistor to activate the driving coil in attraction mode to the rotor. The stack of magnets behind the driving coil is in opposition to the rotor.
When the driving transistor shuts off, the magnetic field from this stack pushes the rotor away from the TDC. When there is no power applied the rotor is affected by cogging only a little as the stack of magnets is pushing away while the iron/magnetite cores of the generator coils pull to the TDC. The rotor consists of 6 neodymium permanent magnets (N50), of which all the poles are oriented with their NNNNNN outwards.


Two generator coils that are connected in parallel are being shorted constantly many times per cycle using two MOSFET transistors connected source to source with bypassing diodes. This pair is being driven from a small variable frequency/pulse width square wave signal generator/MOSFET driver.
Two neon bulbs are connected across the generator coil pair being shorted and the meter reads rectified pulse DC (no cap).


There are moments when the neons put out quite a light show of purple flashes there and that is where the magic happens, at TDC.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: synchro1 on November 15, 2015, 04:17:23 PM
Hi synchro1

In my shorting video

A Hall sensor triggers a MOSFET transistor to activate the driving coil in attraction mode to the rotor. The stack of magnets behind the driving coil is in opposition to the rotor.
When the driving transistor shuts off, the magnetic field from this stack pushes the rotor away from the TDC. When there is no power applied the rotor is affected by cogging only a little as the stack of magnets is pushing away while the iron/magnetite cores of the generator coils pull to the TDC. The rotor consists of 6 neodymium permanent magnets (N50), of which all the poles are oriented with their NNNNNN outwards.


Two generator coils that are connected in parallel are being shorted constantly many times per cycle using two MOSFET transistors connected source to source with bypassing diodes. This pair is being driven from a small variable frequency/pulse width square wave signal generator/MOSFET driver.
Two neon bulbs are connected across the generator coil pair being shorted and the meter reads rectified pulse DC (no cap).


There are moments when the neons put out quite a light show of purple flashes there and that is where the magic happens, at TDC.

@kEhYo77,

Thank you very very much. Everything's crystal clear now: The meter reads rectified D.C. pulse (no cap) from the pair of shorted generator coils with two neon bulbs connected across them!
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on November 16, 2015, 10:30:42 AM
Yes, it makes the same sound as your V3 RT when you activate the switch to power the load.



Thanks

Luc

Quote
Could you point out where I could get a blueprint of his design

I suspect that you will have access to them at another place shortly ;)
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: citfta on November 22, 2015, 12:16:19 AM
For those of you that are looking for a small motor to play around with I found these.  They are pretty small but the price is right.  You'll pay more for the shipping than for the motor or motors if you order more than one.  I ordered 3 just because they looked like they would be easy to modify and rewire.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/AC-Motors/Special-Purpose-AC-Motors/24-120-VAC-15000-RPM-MOTOR-10-1062.axd

Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Jimboot on November 22, 2015, 01:25:31 AM
For those of you that are looking for a small motor to play around with I found these.  They are pretty small but the price is right.  You'll pay more for the shipping than for the motor or motors if you order more than one.  I ordered 3 just because they looked like they would be easy to modify and rewire.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/AC-Motors/Special-Purpose-AC-Motors/24-120-VAC-15000-RPM-MOTOR-10-1062.axd (http://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/AC-Motors/Special-Purpose-AC-Motors/24-120-VAC-15000-RPM-MOTOR-10-1062.axd)
Good find, unfortunately if I want 5 it will cost $50 to deliver to AU. Cheap as heck for the motors though.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: Reiyuki on November 22, 2015, 02:46:58 AM
Good find, unfortunately if I want 5 it will cost $50 to deliver to AU. Cheap as heck for the motors though.

Thrift shops/pawn shops usually have a few old vacuum cleaners laying around for cheap (5-10 bucks?).  Usually have some great AC motors on them with good torque and an unloaded speed past 10k rpm.
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on January 25, 2016, 12:28:41 PM
Bump

Australia Day tomorrow.

Any additional tips?

Regards, Penno
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on March 22, 2016, 10:57:11 AM
Hi Brad,

With the RTv3 how does one implement a decrease in the magnetic field strength as that field approaches the stator(generating)coil,
and an increase in the magnetic field strength as the field is leaving the stator coil ?

Is it that one stator field is solely used for timing to drive the switch (fet) that connects the other stator field on or just after TDC ?

Any tips greatly appreciated.

Regards, Penno
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: tinman on March 23, 2016, 04:11:12 PM
Hi Brad,

With the RTv3 how does one implement a decrease in the magnetic field strength as that field approaches the stator(generating)coil,
and an increase in the magnetic field strength as the field is leaving the stator coil ?

Is it that one stator field is solely used for timing to drive the switch (fet) that connects the other stator field on or just after TDC ?

Any tips greatly appreciated.

Regards, Penno

You neutralize the permanent magnets field until the rotor segment just passes TDC(in regards to the PM),and you then disconnect the current flowing to the coil around the PM that neutralizes that PMs field,and short the stator coil. This shorted coil forms an apposing field to that of the rotors field by way of transformer induction. This apposing field is then the same field as that of the PMs field,and so the rotors field now has an extremely strong apposing field to push against.
You can then capture the energy from the stator field when the short is opened,and the cycle is repeated at every armature/brush contact segment. The timing is controlled by the AC current produced in the second stator coil,which is also your main transformer coil.


Brad
Title: Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
Post by: penno64 on March 23, 2016, 07:41:54 PM
Thankyou.

Have a wonderful Easter.

Regards, Penno