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### Author Topic: Tinman's coil shorting circuit  (Read 72894 times)

#### verpies

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3473
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2015, 03:59:16 PM »
What I find interesting is the fact that the motor runs at all with just input to the armature.
How is it that the armature induces the stators and have motor action???
You should not find it strange because it is a simple case of an electromagnet (rotor) attracting some soft iron (the stator).
If you have ever seen a magnet attract a steel nail, then you're familiar with this effect.

Take a look at a diagram of the rotor electromagnets below.  Half of the segments produce south poles and the other half - north poles.
Imagine a radial line that separates the south poles from the north poles.  The position of this line is determined by the angular position of the brushes and the way the rotor is wired (with an angular offset or without).  In Fig.2 this is the blue line.

Now if there is a soft steel stator pole anywhere nearby then the rotor will be attracted to it in such a way that the middle of the group of e.g. south poles is the closest to it.
The middle of the pole group lies on another radial line, that is perpendicular to the aforementioned line dividing the south and north poles.  Let's call it the "middle line".  In Fig.2 this is the orange line.

Depending on the position of the brushes, the middle line will be at an angular offset to the soft steel of the stator pole and then the rotor will experience a torque that will attempt to align that middle line to the center of the stator pole. If the brushes are positioned so that the middle line is aligned with the stator pole then the rotor will not rotate, because it will be already aligned for maximum attraction to the soft steel of the stator pole.

Tinman's variation on the scheme adds an embedded magnet* inside one of the stator poles.
This magnet is polarized in such a way as to counteract the attraction of the rotor to the soft steel of the rotor's pole, in other words the magnet is polarized in such way as to repel the rotor's middle line.

* Tinman's scheme also adds a soft iron tube and an additional embedded winding which generates magnetic flux opposite to the magnet's flux.
AFAIK both stators windings are not powered externally and the embedded winding inside one of the stator poles is not powered either.  Instead all 3 windings act as generator windings, which constitute electric energy output of this device, from the point of view of external terminals.
Only the rotor is powered externally.

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2015, 01:21:02 AM »
Much like walking down steps while gaining altitude at the same time.

people just will not spend enough time to try and answer these questions-they like it all handed to them on a silver platter. The first part of the operation is simple-the magnetic field on the rotor is attracted to the steel cores of the stator. The part no one can answer is this-why dose the RT speed up when a load is placed across the stator winding's?. This should cause an apposing magnetic field,and the rotor should stop. Thing is,it dose, if the current is drawn from the stator coil in one direction. But if the current is drawn from the stator coil in the other direction,then the RT speeds up<-- this is the part no one can answer-why. The answer is quite simple if you take a close look at what is happening within the workings of the RT.

I had read Verpies post first. So I get the attraction method.  But you hit the nail on the head and answered my question by just letting me know that applying a load to the stator doesnt impede motor action.  Il see if I can figure it out.  Thanks

Mags

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2015, 01:29:07 AM »

I had read Verpies post first. So I get the attraction method.  But you hit the nail on the head and answered my question by just letting me know that applying a load to the stator doesnt impede motor action.  Il see if I can figure it out.  Thanks

Mags

Romero used magnets behind his stators also.     Not the same config, but maybe there is a common answer.

Mags

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2015, 01:31:57 AM »
Thanks for the thorough explanation Verpies.

Mags

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2015, 06:37:02 AM »

I had read Verpies post first. So I get the attraction method.  But you hit the nail on the head and answered my question by just letting me know that applying a load to the stator doesnt impede motor action.  Il see if I can figure it out.  Thanks

Mags
Thats correct. In fact, it increases motor action when the generating coil is loaded-and by a large amount-while at the same time , power consumption decreases by at least half.
If you can work out why that is, then you will work out the rest of it.

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2015, 07:15:35 AM »
Thats correct. In fact, it increases motor action when the generating coil is loaded-and by a large amount-while at the same time , power consumption decreases by at least half.
If you can work out why that is, then you will work out the rest of it.

Thanks.  Will ponder that for a bit.

Mags

#### Reiyuki

• Full Member
• Posts: 133
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2015, 09:05:24 AM »
The first part of the operation is simple-the magnetic field on the rotor is attracted to the steel cores of the stator. The part no one can answer is this-why dose the RT speed up when a load is placed across the stator winding's?. This should cause an apposing magnetic field,and the rotor should stop. Thing is,it dose, if the current is drawn from the stator coil in one direction. But if the current is drawn from the stator coil in the other direction,then the RT speeds up<-- this is the part no one can answer-why. The answer is quite simple if you take a close look at what is happening within the workings of the RT.

I'll take a stab at it, the answer is basically 2-part:

First, the magnet creates an opposed magnetic field in the iron stator as it approaches (the reason why the stator is attracted to the magnet in the first place).  When you apply a load, it must first counter this temporary magnetic field before being affected by the rotor's field.

Second, when you short the coil, you are saturating the stator, changing its permeability and thus its attraction to the magnet.  The magnet attracts the stator until TDC, then it 'disappears' and slips out because of the change in permeability.

So, a strong load applied near TDC saturates the stator and lessens the attraction between magnet and stator.  Ironically making it more efficient the more load you put on it, to a certain point.

#### verpies

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3473
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2015, 08:17:33 PM »
... applying a load to the stator doesn't impede motor action.  Il see if I can figure it out.  Thanks
Actually when external DC power supply is applied only to the rotor, its rotational direction can reverse at some loads applied to the stator.
Direction dependent on load - how do you like them apples?

#### shylo

• Hero Member
• Posts: 540
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2015, 02:02:10 AM »
This site is fucked some kind of malware is preventing me from mreading and posting

#### shylo

• Hero Member
• Posts: 540
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2015, 02:03:17 AM »
well apparently that worked

#### shylo

• Hero Member
• Posts: 540
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2015, 02:14:54 AM »
Does it matter which way a coil is wound?
If a CW coil sees a north field it creates a south opposing field , right?
If a CW coil sees a south field it creates a north opposing field right?
If the connections can be reversed at the right time , because CW and CCW are the same dependant on field, you should get assistance instead of opposition, right?
artv

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2015, 02:28:23 AM »
Actually when external DC power supply is applied only to the rotor, its rotational direction can reverse at some loads applied to the stator.
Direction dependent on load - how do you like them apples?

Actually no.
No load placed on the stator coil(inductive,capacitive or resistive)or a combination of either will reverse the direction of the rotor. The only way to reverse the direction of the rotor is by altering the timing of the brushes. Even reversing the polarity to the rotor will not change the direction of the rotors rotation.

The question on how and why placing a load on the stator coil increases torque and RPM while reducing current draw to the RT is based around my first model dated back 2 1/2 - 3 years ago,where there is no embedded magnet in the stator core. that PM in the stator core is only to increase mechanical output and efficiency,and has nothing to do with the effect being created within the RT.

Hint
In a standard transformer you have two motions.
1-The flow of current
2-Moving/increasing,decreasing magnetic fields.
With the RT we add physical movement of mass.
As EMJ would say-Action/reaction/counter reaction.
So here we have created an imbalance within the system,where with a standard transformer you have restricted that imbalance by removing the physical motion of mass.

Rather than trying to lift your self off the ground by pulling on your own boot straps,you would be far better off putting your boot on some one else's foot and lifting.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2015, 02:31:38 AM »
Does it matter which way a coil is wound?
If a CW coil sees a north field it creates a south opposing field , right?
If a CW coil sees a south field it creates a north opposing field right?
If the connections can be reversed at the right time , because CW and CCW are the same dependant on field, you should get assistance instead of opposition, right?
artv
No.
No matter what way your coil is wound,it will always build an apposing field when a magnetic field approaches it,and an attracting field when a magnetic field is leaving it-->when that coil has a load placed on it of course

#### Tito L. Oracion

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2203
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2015, 11:07:20 AM »
No.
No matter what way your coil is wound,it will always build an apposing field when a magnetic field approaches it,and an attracting field when a magnetic field is leaving it-->when that coil has a load placed on it of course

Good info.

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4117
##### Re: Tinman's coil shorting circuit
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2015, 11:21:08 AM »

...
The question on how and why placing a load on the stator coil increases torque and RPM while reducing current draw to the RT is based around my first model dated back 2 1/2 - 3 years ago,where there is no embedded magnet in the stator core. that PM in the stator core is only to increase mechanical output and efficiency,and has nothing to do with the effect being created within the RT.

Hint
In a standard transformer you have two motions.
1-The flow of current
2-Moving/increasing,decreasing magnetic fields.
With the RT we add physical movement of mass.
As EMJ would say-Action/reaction/counter reaction.
So here we have created an imbalance within the system,where with a standard transformer you have restricted that imbalance by removing the physical motion of mass.

Rather than trying to lift your self off the ground by pulling on your own boot straps,you would be far better off putting your boot on some one else's foot and lifting.

Thanks for the hints.

Quote
So here we have created an imbalance within the system,where with a standard transformer you have restricted that imbalance by removing the physical motion of mass.

I would have two questions here:

1) Am I correct by saying that in your recent RT the created imbalance is further enhanced by disengaging the repel flux from the embedded magnet at the right moment?

2) Considering a solid state version for your recent RT,  the lack of the physical motion of mass would cause the same lack of imbalance, right? If yes, then have you found some 'tricks' to solve this, is it possible?

Thanks,
Gyula