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Author Topic: Gravity powered water generator  (Read 20748 times)

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2017, 11:12:27 AM »
Yes,there are many water falls and dams worldwide,natural and artificial.

The biggest falls under water,with falling heights up to several thousands meters and huge water mass : beside Groenland/Gibraltar.

                                    But there are several doubts about mobility and portability . ;)

To get a water powered engine http://www.overunity.com/watermotor/index.htm is not the problem,
to get a complete energy transforming device,
which gives a "total system OU-performance" under generator/consumer no-load/half-/full-load and poor bemf is more complex,
including the load inrush current phase.


"How get the electron gas (= Plasma,electricity) stimulated to reach a total system OU break-even !?? "
L.A.S.E.R.,M.A.S.E.R.

What happens on the surface from photo-/phono-voltaic cells and on/in the npn pnp-layer ? chain reaction : electron gas flow

What happens on/in a coil/foil (un-/treated(coated) ?

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2017, 11:12:27 AM »

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2017, 12:36:22 AM »
Webby1, Low Q, Lanca IV:  Thank you all for engaging in very compelling  dialog.  I appreciate all your learned impute.  I could not even begin to challenge your obvious intellectual prowess.  I  have just been stating from a plain ordinary idea,  the thought processes of my idea.  I value all your discussion on the merits and the scientific and also mathematical  problems and in analyzing this assembly.  Culminating,  in a consensus  of all of you as to the non-workability of this idea. 
Sorry but I don't think you have addressed the points I have been making as to why this process works.  You keep saying how I can't create a power  source which can self maintain.  Tell that to the guy with the tank generator I mentioned earlier.  He is using gravity to fall through a pipe with 30 plus in line generators which gives him 4,000 watts of power and only needs one pump to send it back to restart.  According to thx1138's rendition at the same post. 
I guess the only way to really see is to build it.  I promise when I do I will come back and give you the verdict good or bad. 
I have given as many explanations as I can to let you understand the process and I don't think you got it.  The unit is functioning fully (completely self running at the point of start up) to all degrees and the generated power just has to cover necessary losses.  No math as yet has convinced me otherwise.  So 5.5K to run 5k sounds good but the energy is not to the point of doing that.   I already have the power running, it just supplements it.  More later.

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2017, 05:23:54 AM »
To All"   I will try to explain this as simply  as I can and as I have envisioned it.   
Forget the water buckets for now.  I am starting with a set of weights, separated by a little bit from each other.  I am using those weights to force a step up gear system to run a generator at optimal speed so as to maximize the output power.   I am getting say 5,000 watts from this driving weight to electrical power ratio.  As long as the weight stays the same I will be running the generator the same speed and the power output will remain the same.  Now when the first weight  gets to the bottom it must be sent back to the top and reapplied to the system to continue the same operative functions, and the power to do that is built into the system through the weights already on the rotating line.  It has all the weight it needs on one side to make every thing run and enough weight to also bring the bottomed out weight back up to the top on the other side with a fast motion so no loss in rotation from weighted side has occurred.   Perfectly balanced and choreographed motion.
  Now In my perfectly balanced system I would not need any power to send the weight back up to the top because it would already be in the initial weight plan allowing for that motion to occur.  Thus, at that point it would be self rotation (or self sustaining).  But, since I have losses, which all of you have pointed out, being caused by the "work", (such as drag from the gears, chains, bearings, gravity, etc.) the system must be supplemented to compensate for those losses to keep the system operating  or the weights will not be able to keep up with the losses and the operation will slowly come to a stop. 
 Now enters  the generator which is steadily putting out 5,000 watts of power with nothing to do.  Just wasting away.  I propose to utilize that power to compensate the losses of the system By having it add as much more weight to the system as it should need to keep it moving at its designated speed.  (say for imaginative purposes, filling  a bag of sand or whatever at the moment of need and adding it to the weighted side).
 So I have adjusted my first balanced system plan to allow for your imputed must do's.   ( Though to be honest, my simple brain cannot figure out why if the system is running itself throughout the whole process from the use of the weights why I would need to compensate anything.  It is already functioning through the full cycle). Repetitively from the weights.    I see that if I used the generator power I might get a drag effect from that as it try's to slow down from the draw.  That's one you might know of. 
Like I said in earlier post there are generators no with little or no cogging effect.  But if that was already built into the weights at start up then that would not be a factor. 
So I just don't get why you say it can't work. 
Say I was pulling a lunch wagon.  If he never fed me I would eventually have to stop.  But if the man kept feeding me I could keep pulling the wagon.   And If I could not pull the wagon due to not having enough muscle I would just add more muscle.    Same principle.

P.S.  I used the word conservative as in "preservative",  Not to use any more than is necessary to do a function.  And also to find the most efficient methods and materials available to create as little drag  on the system as possible.
Webby1:
Back to the water buckets. 
 Your idea of just one pump is very practical and (conservative).  I could have enough starting weight driving the system to allow for more water going back up than necessary and just bleed off the unnecessary amount  and there by sustain the system without stealing from the generators power.   

Water is easy to work with.  So I chose water to power the system through a bucket conveyor.  It is easier than moving solid materials.  I can put any amount of water into a bucket system and have as much torque as I need for driving any "work" I need to.   I used a Rope pump assemble  to draw water to the top to resupply the bucket system, also being powered by the bucket system.  So if I need more water to maintain the system at any point I feel I could just add more water weight in the buckets to power the extra need at the start.  Like I said it all starts with more than enough water driving force to supply the motion of the assembly.  The buckets also are driving the step up gears which in turn are driving the generator.  So all the power from the buckets are driving the entire system completely.  AND a little extra water coming to the top from the initial power drive to enable fine tuning the systems needs. 
So if you say it won't work then we stand at a point of disagreement, only a build will cure. 
     

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2017, 05:23:54 AM »
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Offline fritznien

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2017, 05:40:59 AM »
put some real numbers on your device.
what energy you get from a descending weight,
what it will take to reset that weight.

Offline Acca

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2017, 07:01:22 AM »
I gave up on this 4 years ago.. and so it's back .. I hope it will work as to "your" formulation...

 Why the GAIA ROSCH buoyancy power plant
 (kinetic power plant) will never work
 
 
 
http://gaia.ws1.eu/mmr_en.php
 
 
http://gaia.ws1.eu/index_en.php
 
http://www.overunity.de/1797/rosch-auftriebskraftwerk-gaia-auftriebs-kraftwerk-wie-es-funktioniert/3585/
 
Acca..
 
p.s. It’s the numbers …that are real..
 
 However if you use a permanent magnet rotor generator China type.. Strange effects happen … Who knows ?? [/font]

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2017, 07:01:22 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2017, 12:26:05 PM »
@Brutus


Calculate the energy output of a perfectly balanced system.
Yes, you said it yourself. You got a perfectly balanced system.


The story about the assumingly working gravityplant is not true.
Just face it. It will not work.


Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2017, 03:40:40 PM »
Cogging is just a result of uneven distribution of forces. Cogging or not does not change the final outcome.


Vidar

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2017, 03:40:40 PM »
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Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2017, 07:48:06 PM »
To All :  I do appreciate your impute and I have tried to apply it.  So instead of starting a new posting idea I have decided to let you see it and tell me if it is just as bad as the last one. 
I utilize the same water generator idea but with a twist.  I drew it up to be as simple to follow as I can.  I am sure between your accumulated knowledge base this is probably a no brainer.  (No pun  intended.)  So here goes;

The process is using water buckets filled at the top of gear one and drives the conveyor which will resemble Scan #10 on reply # 7.  This will accommodate the turns required in the conveyors path.  The buckets already full of water as they enter the tank will cause minimal slowing. 
The buckets then travel past gear two on toward gear three which will then turn upward where it will be filled with air, displacing the water.  That will cause the buckets to gain a pull power of their own. 

The buckets then travel up to and over gear four which will release the air into air pocket at the top of the tank.  And so travel back down after filling up again with water. 

On the side of the tank I have fitted an air pipe from the air pocket at the top of the tank and installed the other end into the bottom of the tank which I am hoping will fill the buckets with air at junction of gear three from the pressure.
 
My question to all of you is,   will this maintain a constant and stable air supply?  The air stays in the tank and not released anywhere as far as I can tell.  Maybe a minute amount one way or another from the buckets coming and going?

I have put a direct tube from the tank just under the water line to flow out to fill the buckets.  The water inside the buckets as they travel to gear three are full of water so that it releases into the tank to replenish the tank again.  Maybe a better placement to assure this?  Farther up maybe?   The conveyor gear placement is negotiable like for shorter distances to points traveled or taller overall for more travel time. 

The air pressure at the top of the tank should keep the water at a constant height, Yes?

I forgot to mention at the start there are two parts to the tank if it is not obvious.  The base goes all the way from wall to wall.  Then you have a second section which is basically inserted into the main tank like an upside down glass into a bucket.  The center wall goes under the main water height to allow the tall tank to hold the water.  You all know of this fact.  I just need your feed back as to the functionality  of this idea. 

It seems I would be gaining more power from this idea than just the buckets coming down would offer. 

Offline citfta

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2017, 08:36:35 PM »
Sorry again but it can't work.  The water pressure at the bottom of the tank will force the water back up the tube instead of letting the air flow out to fill the buckets.  Also air will flow into the tube that is supposed to be filling the buckets and this will then let the water in the higher side flow over to the other side and out onto the floor.

Get a container of water and a plastic disposable cup.  Fill the cup completely full of water and then with the open end down raise it until most of the cup is above the water level.  Now poke a small hole in the cup down from the top a little.  Watch what happens.  Did water flow out of the hole?  Did air go into the hole and water ran out the open end of the cup?

I admire you wanting to do something and you have some original ideas but you really need to get an education in basic physics.  I am sure there are some online classes you could take to help you.

Respectfully,
Carroll

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2017, 08:36:35 PM »
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Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2017, 10:52:58 PM »
citfta:   Your right.    I knew most of your points.  And great analysis.   I just thought that with enough air pressure at the top it would maintain my idea.  I can see that the pressure is much larger at the bottom than the top so it can't work this way.  I remember now that water will always seek a perfect level.   That would just fill the pipe to the exact level as in the tank.   I will have to use an outside source for an air supply.    I would also have to install a pressure gauge/ outlet/inlet device  to maintain the same pressure so the water does not  lower to the bucket fill pipe.  I knew that would be catastrophic.  I am testing a plastic bottle with straws to see about the water flow pipe.  Will get back with you.  I am waiting for the glue to dry. I know it will suck air in and lower the water level back into the lower tank if it is allowed to reach the air pocket.  I may have to put in a small pump to push the water through and not use an open hole application.   It is cheaper energy if I use the water up high than to use the water down below and bring it up to fill the buckets as in my other design.   
    I am just  debating if I am drawing the water out at the top of the tall tank, if more water will come in to replace it and remain at the same level if the air in the tank remains the same.  I think so.  That's the balancing act I am looking for. 
     How about a  small air pump sucking out the top air in tank and forcing it down into the side air pipe. for filling the buckets.  Then the water would not fill the pipe.  And the air would return to the top in the buckets and so keeping my initial pressure and level still in the tank.  Using a ball stop I could keep the flow going one way.   And, would all this cost me to much in used energy to justify the build? 
Some things to ponder.
   I am thinking I would be saving a lot with a pump to fill the buckets if it were stationed at the top so I would not have to pull so much so far.  As, in thx1138's tank  pump  idea.   Basically, just cut it from the top few inches.  And with the air flow giving more power I think this idea just bumped up My last generator idea.  (Course all of you may feel differently).  Thank you for the help anyway.
   

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2017, 11:13:59 PM »
citfta:   I just did a remodel according to your specification of the problem areas.  I know you all think it won't work any way but I did address your issues.  Scan 22 is the fix.   Thanks.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2017, 11:13:59 PM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2017, 05:48:04 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK-jL3SzxQ
Each turn dumps into a bucket at the top and would need back flow valves to keep the water from flowing backwards.  In a screw pump you are not lifting the weight of the water you are expending the energy to turn the screw. 


Water always seeks its own level.  lets look at 1 wrap or turn of the screw.  Think of a clear bike inner tube that is 1/2 full of water.  The water from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock is held in place by the exact amount of water from 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock.   As the tube is rotated the water always stays in the bottom 1/2 of the tube at low speeds. 
As the tube is rotated clockwise the weight of the water from 6-9 o'clock pushes the weight of the water from 3-6 o'clock always staying level through each turn of the screw. 

Lets go big or go home.  Say each turn of the screw is 9 ft in diameter and 1 foot wide and it is 1/2 full of water.  About how much does the water way?

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2017, 08:46:09 AM »
bw100007; 
      Yes I think I addressed that issue of back flow with a ball valve.  I just didn't put it in the drawing.  It is just a basic sketch.  I figured I would get more thoughts and decided to wait for further impute before doing a final draft.  I think I will go with a back ward curved, radial type impeller blade centrifugal pump.  And as you say, a one way valve, or else the water will just flow (equalize) down and out the open end of the tank. 
      I don't see how an Archimedes screw can be sealed good enough.  Well maybe, if I had it totally submerged and it only forced water through the pipe with a one way valve to stop the air sucking back in.  Possible.  But that is doing the same thing as the centrifugal pump but longer application. 
      I will use the power of the water buckets  to drive the water pump.  I can set up a system similar to  bicycle step up gearing to get proper rpm on the pump and so by doing that, get the needed  flow rate of water to refill the buckets. 
      I already addressed the leveling effect of water already.   I also did not put a one way valve on the air pump side in the sketch as yet either. 
      It is going to be difficult for me to draw up another total system sketch like my original starting design as I don't have,(as you can see), good skills in mechanical drafting.  But if no one has any further impute into my design and  or possible flaws, I will attempt to do one more complete revised sketch.  But, it will only be different in that I have  tried to enhance  the bucket line to maybe get more thrust with the addition of the extra tank.  Giving it an added air flow power enhancement.  AND, saving a lot of power by pumping the water from the top of the tank instead of the bottom, thus, saving a lot of wasteful energy with the water pump. 
       And I am dropping the rope pump assembly all together.  With the addition of the second tank It is not needed. 
       Still looking at the under water drag of the buckets.  By possibly using collapsible  buckets.  (Maybe leather bags).  To alleviate more of the under water drag.  I am trying to streamline it in every way I can. 
      The math is unknown in this system as yet.  There are to many things like water drag on the buckets.  How much actual lift you get from the air in the rising buckets. the loss due to gears and shafts,  the force needed to turn whatever generator you will be using, etc.  So I can only build the basic model and  see through experimentation how big and how many buckets it will require to run the system. 
       If I were as smart as  the majority of people on this site are,  I could probably get pretty close. 
     
     

Offline memoryman

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2017, 03:23:08 PM »
If you were as smart as  the majority of people on this site are, you would know that this cannot work.

Offline citfta

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2017, 06:37:37 PM »
Hi Brutus,

I didn't comment on your latest design because it is clear you refuse to believe that it will take just as much energy to get the water back to the top as you can get out of it falling.  And with the normal friction losses you will lose energy.  It doesn't really make any difference HOW you raise the water to the top it is still a losing situation.  You just can't beat gravity at it's own game.  But until you prove it to yourself I think the rest of us are wasting our time trying to convince you.  So I am done here.   Good luck.  I would love to see you prove all of us wrong but really don't think it will happen.

Carroll

 

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