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Author Topic: Gravity powered water generator  (Read 20463 times)

Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2017, 09:07:48 PM »
Webby1  --- 9 ft diameter disc 1 ft thick half full of water will weight aprox. 1987.3 lbs, 12.7 lbs short of a ton of weight. 
This is the same number I  came up with.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2017, 09:07:48 PM »

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2017, 12:11:05 AM »
I think most of you have been very polite and extremely generous in your evaluations.  I appreciate that a lot.  I know disagreements can be trying.   Especially when you think your right.  Even if I am proven wrong, I think you all have helped me to get to a better model.   I believe if you get all the can'ts off the table you are left with the cans.  I don't  believe you have addressed all my points. 

FIRST, I am using air pressure at the top of the second tank to draw and to mostly maintain  the water level in the second tank at its constant level.  (I believe).  So basically I am not losing or using any power in that process.  The water naturally draws itself back up the second tank.  So as the water pump pulls water out into the buckets from the top of the second tank air pressure inside the top of the tank is pulling the water back in to maintain its pressure point.   I know water finds its equal level if you have two sides.  But this is a forced  level.  Using the air pressure to maintain the water level. 

SECOND, I have moved the water pump up to the top of the second tank to alleviate most of the losses from pumping the water up to the buckets.  And to accomplish the FIRST.    I just need to push water out of the tank in a mostly horizontal line.  So little power is needed there.  That is accomplished by using the power  derived from the gravitational force of water and air forcing the fall and rise of buckets to drive the whole assembly.   I just hook up a second driver to the main drive  to turn the water pump. ( As my rope pump was designed to do).   And all of these things are incorporated into the whole assembly power system.  So from the  START I have enough DRIVING POWER to make the whole assembly function self sufficiently.  At least initially.   

This is the point that every one does not seem to grasp.  I think that if I have enough starting weight, (water and Air), to drive the whole assembly with a little extra water flow that can bleed off, (spill over), or use if necessary,  I could maintain the needed force to keep it moving.  (Self Sufficient).  I think  an air pump driven by the water buckets is also a good idea.  So all of it is combined and driven by the water and air buckets. 

THIRD,  I haven't seen anyone address the fact that in this process I am also using the water and air assembly to drive the 5,000 watt generator, all the gears, everything.   Whether or not it is cog free or not does not matter in this set up.  Understand. The buckets drive the whole assembly.  That is the way it is designed.  So I have 5,000 watts of energy at my disposal to use any way I need to.    I can utilize some of  this electrical power to generate the air needed in the second tank to fill the air side buckets.  Or any other fine tuning necessities.   Or if it works like I think it should I would just get free energy from the generator.  Also, you can build this to any proportion you wish, smaller or bigger, depending upon your needs.

NOW, The only thing I have need of is for some one to tell me that what I have laid out is false and why. 
Will the water maintain its level in the second tank as I think it will or does something else cause the water not to draw back up if I maintain the air pressure?  Or same amount of air?   If you go into a cave air pocket you can lower the water by adding air and you can increase the water by letting air escape, right?  Same principle. 
 Would an air pressure regulator be good to use in this scenario?  Or would the air as I have stated maintain itself? 

I think I have addressed your concerns.  A water wheel turns because one side is heavier. This gives power to generate and utilize in what ever form you wish to use it.  If it is put into my scenario and the water is brought back up to a level as I do and re-used,  then why cant you make extra energy from natures natural forces?    Nature is actually  helping to over come some of its own laws in this assembly.   Well, not change any laws but using its laws to my advantage. 

As I said.  Initially, at the start, the whole assembly is running from the buckets with a little extra water over flow to add to the assembly if necessary for adjusting the losses inherent in the system.   Or a 5,000 watt generator to tap into if needed to  use in what ever extras are needed.   

None of this I have stated means anything if one fact is not a fact.  And I will concede it won't work as described.   And that is,  will the water pull itself back up into the second tank by using and maintaining  the air pressure at the top? 

Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2017, 12:40:06 AM »
Webby1 you have already scooped and screwed.  Screw a ton of water on a fulcrum[/size] 3 ft from center and lift it 10 inches just by rotating the cylinder and not lifting the weight how much power can you generate? you need A number of screws to get the best answer. 

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2017, 12:40:06 AM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2017, 12:45:15 AM »
measure the power at the fulcrum and not the drop to get the 3ft of leverage along with the ton of weight dropping.

Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2017, 04:24:29 PM »
I am not sure  how you see the air pressure raising the water level.  if you have a u shaped system with tanks a and b at the top and you withdraw air from tank b and add it to tank a the level in b will rise and tank a will fall.  If you use that rise in tank B for your buckets how do you get more water to replenish tank a?

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2017, 04:24:29 PM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2017, 04:57:46 PM »
lets try to simplify it.  If you have a teeter totter with a bucket at each side and 1 side is pre filled.  When that is allowed to drop it will create X amount of energy.  if you lift the water back to the top that will take = to or more energy than is gained from it dropping due to losses. 


The advantage of the screw drive to move the water uses the fact that water always wants to seek its own level.  Lets say we modify the screw drive i added in the video above a little so that is more in the shape of a spring. 1 full wrap at the left, a helical wrap to shift the water from left to right and a full circle wrap on the right.  Think of the wraps on the right and left as your buckets or reservoirs. as the screw is rotated the water exists the left bucket and enters the transfer helical wrap that moves the water from left to right and another turn moves it into the right bucket.  If you mount the whole pump on the teeter totter ( lever and fulcrum) Then the water moving from left to right could move the lever.  The energy input is not in lifting the water but in rotating the screw the water will seek its own level all the way through the screw and into the other end.  This does change with the greater the angle of the screw and the higher the lift.   The other advantage is the fact that the farther you move the water out on the lever there is a gain due to leverage. 1 bucket does the work of 3 at 3 ft when taken at the fulcrum and not the dropped end of the teeter totter.  Reverse the direction of the screw and the water moves back to the left and the full cycle is completed. No water is ever added or removed once it is pre-filled. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:14:32 PM by bw100007 »

Offline antijon

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2017, 08:34:24 PM »
Hey guys, I've got a question if someone can help me out.

Reading a part of the argument here, I was wondering about the lifting energy of something compared to the impact energy of it falling. A simple way to find the impact energy is height x weight.

So a gallon of water at roughly 8 lbs. dropped from 10 ft. should have an impact of 80 lbs.

Going from that I found a formula that stated it takes 10J to lift 1 kg 1 m.

So a fat guy at 100 kg climbing a 3 meter ladder in 5 seconds used 600w of energy.
10j x 100kg x 3m / 5 s = 600w (notice that total energy is 3000 joules).
I then found a splat calculator here https://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed.html that shows the fat guy falling from 3 meters will have an impact of 2940 joules. Obviously lower than the energy needed to climb the ladder, but whatever. My problem is converting that energy into watts. Certainly, the total impact time is less than one second. So if impact time is .5 secs total watts at impact would be 6kw. Does that sound right?
Physically, I know if I put rubber, or a spring, on the ground under the fat guy, I'm increasing the impact time and lowering the impact energy. So do I really get more watts out than in?

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2017, 08:34:24 PM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2017, 09:40:02 PM »
This is really crude but shows the left wrap the transfer wrap and the right wrap. Sorry about the file size i am a newbie.  Any way i can correct this?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 01:45:28 AM by bw100007 »

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2017, 10:51:53 PM »
webby1;
  in a closed system the air pressure change will be the same change value as the change in the water levels. 

Check out scan 0023.pdf  and let me know if you think the way I drew it will work.   This is my question.  Will the water once released from the top of tank B through the outlet and then falling into tank A which is connected with the same water source, ( It is all one tank actually but with a riser on the right side), Go back into tank B from the air pulling it as it tries to maintain its air pressure.

My point being,  If the water is caused to pull itself back into tank B through air pressure stabilization within tank B, then I can alleviate the need to pump water against gravity through mechanical/electrical means to bring it back to the water pump again.

Or maybe some other medium besides air which, until now, I had not considered might be used to keep a pressure point applied to do the same thing?   Like an oil?  No Gap, so the drawing power would be constant with no variance.  Or, better yet, no water or air gap at all just filled to the top with water. 

Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2017, 02:11:53 AM »

This can work, but to rotate the tube will require a torque to be applied and this is where the manometric pump part comes into play.


IF you prime the left wrap almost full and when looking from the right side turn the cylinder clockwise 1 turn the fluid will move into the transfer helix.  keep rotating it clockwise an additional 1 turn and the fluid will move into the right wrap/bucket. The cylinder is rotated by a secondary source.  If it is 9 ft in dia then moving a ton of weight 6 ft from left to right with the fulcrum centered would give a ton of weight at 3 ft of leverage.  We should not have to lift it very high.


How would the manometric pump rotate the cylinder?

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2017, 07:47:44 PM »
webby1;  Sorry , I forgot to put in the picture a water pump and one way valve at the output site in tank B.  I was just trying to simplify the process to its basics.  I know the water would drain out if it had just a hole there.  You can see from my prior draft I had  a pump installed.  I was actually trying to ask,  could I save the energy of pumping the water from the top verses pumping from the bottom up?  I am thinking the water will naturally draw back up to the top to refill the lost amount.  ( Maintaining its vacuum,   Or pressure).  If that is true then I can save all the lost energy in bringing the water back up to the output site with a pump which is causing me to lose the edge I need to make this system work .   That would mean the water buckets would be gaining energy from the conveyor process.  Forget the air gap.  I don't think that is  necessary.   Just a totally filled sealed water tank. 

Any way,  I am going to get a plastic storage container, a 5 gallon water container and install a small water pump near the top as the picture depicts and see how well it works.   
 I can also test  the flow rate possibly by first running a test bucket of water from another container to see how fast it fills up verses the enclosed system flow to see if there is a measurable difference. 

I am wondering if an Archimedes  screw installed horizontally would be better to use in the assembly.  If submerged it might actually work easier than a centrifugal pump.  Just a thought. 


Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2017, 11:59:39 PM »
webby1: 

Thank you.  That was the analysis I was expecting and dreading.  I will concede to it. 

Still doesn't change my mind about the functionality of the idea though. 

I am wondering if I completely separate the two tanks and make tank A, (With my original assembly), just as I had first drawn it.  Then added tank B as an enclosed system with the air buckets as a secondary driver power source.  All being driven by the buckets, and with the power from the generator to help feed extra water to buckets to compensate for the losses, I think it will still work.   

So, The water pump, the air pump and the generator are all linked together, all driven by the bucket conveyors using gears and pulleys or chains. 

Have to think about the air buckets some more.  No one thinks the Rosch air designs works so I may just chuck the secondary tank idea. 


Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2017, 06:12:54 AM »
webby1; 

So say you had two tanks and one end of your pump was in the bottom tank and the other end was in the tall tank and you drew the water into the tall tank with a sealed suction device?  (Displacement Pump).    Neither tank in your set up had  a sealed/enclosed environment such as mine.  You transferred water from the shallow pool into the deep water at the deep water junction.   And you used the water to flow from the top of the tank into your "bucket".    I can see how that would be very good in getting around the problem of lift.   Would there be no or little resistance pressure to overcome when you expelled the water from the rod?  Oh that's right a displacement pump is known for its  resistance to  pressures.   

So would not a displacement pump work in my sealed tank scenario?  It would circumvent a large portion of the pressure problem, Right?  Whether I drew it out at the top or like you drew it in from the bottom it seems like the same thing.

You are drawing the water in to the tall tank in as similar a way as I would need to draw it out to the buckets.  The cause and affect are the same.   I could use your same idea here and forget the enclosed tank .  Just let it run out from the top to the buckets.

 Can you say your idea is more efficient than an Archimedes screw pump?   Like using a large tubing wrapped around a smaller shaft driven by the water buckets and so fill a reservoir at the top to then fill the buckets.     Or is the lift still losing to much energy?   

One of the members stated in a prior  post that the screw only needed the power to turn it, not the power to lift the water if I remember right.  And isn't it also a displacement pump? 

I was looking at some of the Displacement pumps on line, how they work and such.  I will need to study them further.  Thanks for your personal impute and working knowledge. 

 

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2017, 12:37:55 AM »
I see running the flow back up is a negative gain in any way you put it together manually.  (without an anti gravity device).  But I still haven't been shown how if I have the generator running from the initial water bucket force/ flow so the generator is at its peak output, then why I could not use the generated kw to supplement the extra needed water flow losses  with an additional electric (displacement) pump.   And so keep the assembly running.   I know you said it takes 5.5 kw to run 5kw generator but I am not running a generator to run a generator I am using the water buckets to run the generator to peak output then using the generated power to supplement the inherent losses of water to the buckets to maintain its continuous operation.   That is in addition to the already established pumping system, (which ever way I decide to go), which is also powered by the water buckets. 

 But on to another idea. 
 If I were to have the tall tank enclosed, filled with water to say approximately 4/5ths or less full, and pressurized with air so that the pressurized air would be forcing itself through an attached outside top and bottom of tank connected  pipe with enough pressure to keep the water from traveling back up the outside pipe, maybe using a one way valve at the bottom, and the air continuing back into the tank at the bottom,   would the air at the top portion keep recirculating through the pipe to the bottom and back up again, as inside the buckets for lifting purposes?  (I show this drawn on the last model where the pipe goes from the top to outside the tank and returns into the bottom of the tank to fill the buckets allowing them to rise using the air).   Or would it just reach a stable/neutral point and stop?   

I know if had no top on the tank it would only work if I used an air pump and one way valve in the pipe. 

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2017, 09:21:17 PM »
I understand  the air is expanding in the buckets from the loss of pressure as it enters the water from where it started from.  I can also see how it expands more and more as it gets closer to the top due to less water pressure.  What I don't follow is when it reaches the top and encounters the original air pressure which moved it through the pipe at the start,  why it doesn't go back to its original pressure after it is released from the water back into the air pocket and so keep the air motion going.   In the enclosed environment I thought all things were constant.  The water is the same amount and the air is the same amount.  So does the water absorb the air like in carbonation?    What stops the air from re-attaining its original pressure?    If it is coming out of the water what stops it from going back through again?  I hear your saying there are expenditures/losses due to the water travel.  But I am just not getting that part. 

Ok, so if you say it will eventually stop flowing I have come to trust your knowledge.  Also all the others who have contributed in this forum.   And we're done with this..  So how about I go in another direction.  I appreciate you letting me bounce these ideas off on you. 

 
    If you had three enclosed tanks set up as in the scan below, and I attached an air pump on the pipe inside Tank A  going to Tank B and forced an air supply through to  "move/drive/force/rotate", the buckets up on the conveyor inside tank B.  (bucket assembly not shown in the scan of course).   Then the air goes into tank C using the same air and moves the buckets up and then returns to tank A  and rotates Tank A's  conveyor all with the with the same air.  It looks like I could get a lot of drive power utilizing the same air.  I could just as easily add as many tank drives as I wanted using just one air supply.   This is the Rosch air drive system on steroids.   His system only used one bucket assembly.  Mine uses multiple assemblies using the same air flow.    If needed  I could draw in more air if I have any losses.  But the pressure for the air flowing from tank to tank would be maintained by the pump operation. 

As an addition to this separate idea, I think you could incorporate My first bucket idea.  I think the added enclosed system gains could give me the extra power I need to pull/draw the water to the buckets to achieve a functional system.    I know it is getting pretty elaborate.    But it's not the price of the rocket, it's the moment of touching the moon. 
   
I would think I would be able to gain enough extra energy/hp,  if I put several of these assemblies together to run the air and generator.

 

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