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Author Topic: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]  (Read 94378 times)

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2015, 07:36:49 AM »
Solenoid motor?
Not sure what ypu watched MH, but my setup uses a DC PM motor for the mechanical rotation. The only thing I change is the counter weight for 1fixed permanent magney, and 1 permanent magnet on the controll are. We then spin the DUT up again to find that with the PMs installed, the DC motor now requires less current at the set voltage, meaning that the motor is now spinning faster for less power input. The only change we made was adding 2PMs to the system.

adding a secondary magnetic field to or near a PM motor, effectively alters the magnetic field within the motor.
generally the drop in current-draw is associated with a decrease in available torque per rotation.
the motor is spinning less powerfully, therefore consumes less current, at the same voltage level

This I discovered after careful analysis of a motor/flywheel combination, then attaching a magnet and repeating.


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Offline tinman

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #136 on: October 14, 2015, 11:11:19 AM »


Quote
adding a secondary magnetic field to or near a PM motor, effectively alters the magnetic field within the motor.

The two small magnets used in the DUT are no where near enough to the DC motor to effect it at all.

Quote
generally the drop in current-draw is associated with a decrease in available torque per rotation.
the motor is spinning less powerfully, therefore consumes less current, at the same voltage level

This makes no sense at all. If the motor (DC motor) is supplied with a fixed voltage,the only way to increase or decrease the current draw from that motor is to increase or decrease the load on that motor. How did you come up with-the motor becomes less powerful,and thus draws less current?-when it has a fixed available voltage.

Quote
This I discovered after careful analysis of a motor/flywheel combination, then attaching a magnet and repeating.

This tells me you screw'd up the !already placed in the correct position! magnetic fields of the motor.

Offline tinman

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2015, 11:22:31 AM »
Brad:

Okay, I thought of an easy way to get my point across.   We will just use imaginary power consumption figures:

Setup without magnets:  4 watts power consumption
Setup with magnets:  2 watts power consumption

So, the question is did the magnets do useful work?

You are saying the magnets did do useful work, implying that they are a source of power.  I am saying that is not the case.

Here is the crux of the matter?   What is the actual output of the device?  Let's say that the mechanical power required to overcome the bearing and air friction to make the drum spin is the actual output and anything that is not the actual output is simply electrical power turned into waste heat power.

Here is the key point that you are not considering:  The actual mechanical power required for overcoming the bearing and air friction is only 0.2 watts.  In many setups it's very difficult or sometimes nearly impossible to make this measurement.

<<<< Sidebar:  The best measurement technique for an amateur experimenter to estimate this actual mechanical power needed for keeping a rotor spinning at a given RPM is the spin-down technique.  I am only aware of TK doing this measurement.  If you want to up your game, and this applies to all people that make some kind of spinning rotor device, then you should figure out how to make this measurement.  Even if it is only +/-20% accurate, that is a hell of a lot better than no estimate at all. >>>>

Now, with that knowledge, let's look at the numbers again:

Setup without magnets:  4 watts electrical power consumption
Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts
Efficiency: 5%

Setup with magnets:  2 watts power consumption
Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts
Efficiency: 10%

Do you see, adding the magnets only improved the efficiency of the setup so that it went from 5% to 10%.  The magnets did ZERO WORK, the only thing they did was change the efficiency of the setup and nothing else.


Here is what you would have to see for "Proof that Magnets CAN do useful work:"

Setup with magnets:  0.18 watts power consumption
Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts
Efficiency: 111%

Do you see what's happening with the numbers?  We are imagining that you have a setup with a motor that is 100% efficient overall to start with, and then you add magnets and the magnets themselves "CAN do useful work" and they CONTRIBUTE 0.02 watts of mechanical power to the system.

The problem is that when you do an experiment where you add magnets and see better numbers that NEVER happens.   What you actually see is something like this:

Setup without magnets:  4 watts electrical power consumption
(Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts - YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE THIS AND YOU CAN'T REALLY MEASURE THIS)
Efficiency: 5%

Setup with magnets:  2 watts power consumption
(Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts - YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE THIS AND YOU CAN'T REALLY MEASURE THIS)
Efficiency: 10%

When you add magnets to a setup and see better numbers all that you are really doing is making the setup more efficient and reducing the waste heat production.  You are NEVER showing "Proof that Magnets CAN do useful work."

Please think seriously about this example.  It does not matter that the numbers are hypothetical, it's the concept that you need to understand.

Well we could take a walk down the garden path i guess,or we could look at it for what it really is-that being--> When a set voltage is supplied to a brushed DC motor with a load on that motor,the only !!only!! way to decrease the current input (without changing the configuration of that motor),is by reducing the load on that motor. As the load on the motor dose not change throughout the test(the load being the rest of the DUT),then a second energy source must be provided to that load,so as to lift some of that load from the DC motor driving that load. The only thing we did was add the two PM's to the DUT,and i even went as far as fitting a counter weight that was the same weight as the PM that was to replace it. So we added the two PM's,and our current draw to the prime mover dropped by around half. As the supply voltage was a fixed amount,and the current dropped by half,this means we are now using half the power we were before the PM's were added.

The way i carried out the experiment was very accurate,and the same results were had time after time.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2015, 11:22:31 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #138 on: October 14, 2015, 02:36:52 PM »

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2015, 06:53:46 PM »
Hi All,

Here is an interesting magnetic spring.

US6232689 - Energy extracting mechanism having a magnetic spring

https://www.google.com/patents/US6232689

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2015, 06:53:46 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #140 on: October 15, 2015, 01:07:19 AM »
Well we could take a walk down the garden path i guess,or we could look at it for what it really is-that being--> When a set voltage is supplied to a brushed DC motor with a load on that motor,the only !!only!! way to decrease the current input (without changing the configuration of that motor),is by reducing the load on that motor. As the load on the motor dose not change throughout the test(the load being the rest of the DUT),then a second energy source must be provided to that load,so as to lift some of that load from the DC motor driving that load. The only thing we did was add the two PM's to the DUT,and i even went as far as fitting a counter weight that was the same weight as the PM that was to replace it. So we added the two PM's,and our current draw to the prime mover dropped by around half. As the supply voltage was a fixed amount,and the current dropped by half,this means we are now using half the power we were before the PM's were added.

The way i carried out the experiment was very accurate,and the same results were had time after time.

But if you look very carefully at what I posted it fits exactly into the scenario that you describe.   It fits exactly.

Somewhere there is a clip where someone adds a big external magnet to a running motor and the motor speeds up but the power draw stays the same.  That's the same deal one more time, adding the magnets gave the motor more torque and made it more efficient such that it did more "useful work" for the same input power.   You can't make every motor with giant magnets.  There are design goals for size, weight, and cost.  So adding the big external magnet to the motor is not an "improvement" if you have size as an important design goal.

In your experiment the "true output" of your setup is buried in the waste heat power.  Adding magnets did nothing more than improve the efficiency and reduce the waste heat power.  The magnets themselves remain as dead as a doornail and don't contribute even a nanowatt of power to the setup.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #141 on: October 15, 2015, 02:21:35 AM »
No, I disagree. And that's why I've advocated the stepwise testing against a blank, inert system consisting of the rotor with nonmagnetic weights instead of magnets and no stators.

Timing the rundown from a known starting impulse or RPM will allow you (or would allow ME, at least) to calculate the actual power dissipation of the blank rotor. Then adding the magnets and one stator and repeating the rundown time would allow the experimenter to see whether the single stator/magnet arrangement added a little drag, or a little thrust. It's possible that you only would get a small amount of thrust (added power) from a single stator, not enough to make it keep running but enough to offset _some_ of the power dissipation of the blank system. The rotor would take longer to run down in that case .  Add, say, six stators, all adding their slight amount of thrust (power), and perhaps they would be enough to more than offset the power dissipation of the blank rotor, and the device would speed up until bearing friction and windage again matched the added power and the thing would run along at a constant speed. Each stator would not be enough on its own but a number of them might add together to make the desired effect.

However the reverse is also true.... if an individual stator adds _drag_ instead of thrust, or does nothing (neither adds power nor dissipates it) then adding more of the same will only drag you down faster ( or do nothing) . But without doing the actual comparison testing against a blank system, you'll never know. Pushing around with Mister Hand, changing things because it doesn't continue to run, is just a waste of time and doesn't produce any Real Data that allows for making valid conclusions about whether or not your stator design is going to work or not. It's comical, to think that the experimenters might be missing the "correct" design entirely because they aren't making any real, valid, comparison tests against the blank system.

It's even more comical, since one reason they aren't doing this is _because the suggestion comes from me_.  An hour's worth of actual testing would tell them instantly whether or not their stator designs are helping (adding some power) or hurting (only adding drag), even with testing just a single stator and comparing against the blank inert system. 

Of course we know that there is no possible added thrust from any stator configuration they can come up with... and since actual testing would demonstrate this, they are not doing it, out of fear of what they might find.

Well, of course you are right...this is exactly what I meant.  You are the one that showed those run down tests during the Mylow saga.  Everyone should do that to establish a base line...just as you suggested.

What I was trying to say was that if one stator does not add anything except additional drag compared to your baseline testing, then adding 10 of them will not improve it, only make it worse.

I learned this from working on a "gravity" motor 10 years ago using fluid in pvc tubes on a bicycle wheel.  One tube did not work, so I kept adding tubes and finally, I accidentally designed a really great braking system using 8 tubes, ha ha.  You could give that wheel a really good spin and it would stop in about 1.5 revolutions.  Had I performed your base line test, I could have quit after adding the first tube and saved a lot of time.

Bill

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #141 on: October 15, 2015, 02:21:35 AM »
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Offline ramset

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Offline CANGAS

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #143 on: October 18, 2015, 12:37:20 AM »
Well, of course you are right...this is exactly what I meant.  You are the one that showed those run down tests during the Mylow saga.  Everyone should do that to establish a base line...just as you suggested.

What I was trying to say was that if one stator does not add anything except additional drag compared to your baseline testing, then adding 10 of them will not improve it, only make it worse.

I learned this from working on a "gravity" motor 10 years ago using fluid in pvc tubes on a bicycle wheel.  One tube did not work, so I kept adding tubes and finally, I accidentally designed a really great braking system using 8 tubes, ha ha.  You could give that wheel a really good spin and it would stop in about 1.5 revolutions.  Had I performed your base line test, I could have quit after adding the first tube and saved a lot of time.

Bill


Ha ha ha. Reminds me of a time 15 or 20 years ago when I did a similar ritual of establishing a baseline etc. It was a gravity wheel using solid weights (44 caliber lead balls for a 1851 Navy Colt). When I changed the weight configuration it self-braked much faster than the original configuration. A brisk spin-up and stop in 1 1/2 revs.

Wasn't looking for a novel brake.

CANGAS 190

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #143 on: October 18, 2015, 12:37:20 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #144 on: October 18, 2015, 12:48:55 AM »

Ha ha ha. Reminds me of a time 15 or 20 years ago when I did a similar ritual of establishing a baseline etc. It was a gravity wheel using solid weights (44 caliber lead balls for a 1851 Navy Colt). When I changed the weight configuration it self-braked about 2 or 3 times faster than the original configuration. A brisk spin-up and stop in 1 1/2 revs.

Wasn't looking for a novel brake.

CANGAS 189

Neither was I but I sure found one.  This shows the importance of TK's rundown tests.  Of course, I was doing this long before I even heard of TK.  Maybe I should have attempted to make a breaking device and by accident it might have kept spinning?

Bill

Offline CANGAS

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2015, 02:54:04 AM »
Neither was I but I sure found one.  This shows the importance of TK's rundown tests.  Of course, I was doing this long before I even heard of TK.  Maybe I should have attempted to make a breaking device and by accident it might have kept spinning?

Bill


Perhaps there is a market niche for a new kind (or two) of braking device.  8)

CANGAS 194

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2015, 02:54:04 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #146 on: October 18, 2015, 12:20:18 PM »
another replicator sharing his build
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDfJFIxmSr0&feature=youtu.be

from here

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20239-magnet-motor-revelation-20.html

thanks for looking

Chet K

Has it been a week already Chet?

http://overunity.com/15996/a-sincere-gentleman-sharing-a-magnet-motor-build-nda-issues/msg462829/#msg462829

And still no self-running magnet motor FROM ANYONE.

And in a month, there still won't be. And in a year.... still none.


And Mack, you are utterly wrong about not being "scientifically refuted." Not a single person on your "team" has done the SCIENTIFIC tests I have proposed, illustrated by example, made testable scientific hypotheses about, etc. Nobody "over there" even knows how much power their rotors dissipate under various conditions. Dozens and dozens of magnet motors using your same basic ideas have been tested over the years and have always come to a stop _faster_ when they are fully outfitted, than when they are tested with just a blank rotor. Until you or someone else proves otherwise, these tests solidly and fully _refute_ you and your claims.


Offline tinman

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #147 on: October 18, 2015, 01:38:35 PM »
Has it been a week already Chet?

http://overunity.com/15996/a-sincere-gentleman-sharing-a-magnet-motor-build-nda-issues/msg462829/#msg462829

And still no self-running magnet motor FROM ANYONE.

And in a month, there still won't be. And in a year.... still none.


And Mack, you are utterly wrong about not being "scientifically refuted." Not a single person on your "team" has done the SCIENTIFIC tests I have proposed, illustrated by example, made testable scientific hypotheses about, etc. Nobody "over there" even knows how much power their rotors dissipate under various conditions. Dozens and dozens of magnet motors using your same basic ideas have been tested over the years and have always come to a stop _faster_ when they are fully outfitted, than when they are tested with just a blank rotor. Until you or someone else proves otherwise, these tests solidly and fully _refute_ you and your claims.

Ok-so i went and read the whole thread-->it is quite the comedy fest over there :D
DUFO now seems to be a top notch physicist,and full bottles in quantum physics. Next we'll have a particle accelerator being constructed over there,and there'll be black holes galore  :o

Offline MadMack

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #148 on: October 19, 2015, 10:40:13 PM »
...
And Mack, you are utterly wrong about not being "scientifically refuted." Not a single person on your "team" has done the SCIENTIFIC tests I have proposed, illustrated by example, made testable scientific hypotheses about, etc. Nobody "over there" even knows how much power their rotors dissipate under various conditions. Dozens and dozens of magnet motors using your same basic ideas have been tested over the years and have always come to a stop _faster_ when they are fully outfitted, than when they are tested with just a blank rotor. Until you or someone else proves otherwise, these tests solidly and fully _refute_ you and your claims.
TK,
Putting words in my mouth that were never uttered and claiming that uncited tests from other failed designs refute me and my work. How unprofessional. Do you understand that we are still working with components so there is nothing to do any of your tests on? When we reach the motor stage then you can get your tests. Then they will be both useful and appropriate, not before.

And I challenged YOU, knowledgeable scientist that you are, to prove my design or theory false.
We're still waiting....

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2015, 09:48:52 AM »
TK,
Putting words in my mouth that were never uttered and claiming that uncited tests from other failed designs refute me and my work. How unprofessional. Do you understand that we are still working with components so there is nothing to do any of your tests on? When we reach the motor stage then you can get your tests. Then they will be both useful and appropriate, not before.

And I challenged YOU, knowledgeable scientist that you are, to prove my design or theory false.
We're still waiting....
1. You are wrong that "there is nothing to do any of (my) tests on". You and your builders need to do -baseline rundown- tests on their rotor assemblies, even to the point of knowing the actual power dissipation of their rotors. If you don't know how to do this, I refer you to my various videos on the topic. Like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJavCZX_-PI
And we all know that you and your builders will _never_ "reach the motor stage", by which you presumably mean a self-running permanent magnet motor.

2. Your "theory" is considered to be false because it contradicts the principles of Conservation of Energy and Conservation of Momentum. It is up to YOU to show otherwise, and until you do, the standard interpretation of magnetic fields as conservative still holds. You and your builders have never actually formulated a real "theory" anyway, and certainly have not tested any real hypotheses that may have been generated by it. I have shown how to generate and test real scientific hypotheses, but since they have the potential to _disprove_ your theory, neither you nor any of your builders will actually perform the necessary experiments.

3. I cannot even test your full design because you have never told exactly what it is. NDA, remember? However I have tested _many_ similar designs to what you have shown, and frankly, I see nothing new or even particularly interesting in it. Angled magnets, ramps, balanced and unbalanced configurations, etc. have all been tried for many years by many people and none of them has ever actually shown a benefit over the inert baseline system. And none of your builders are having any luck either, even with your... and UFOPolitics... help.

4. You and your people would never accept anything that I do, anyway, because you are all running on faith, rather than evidence-based science. Remember that UFOPolitics has had a thread running for nearly 3 and 1/2 YEARS, where he claimed "Officially Overunity Galore" three years ago, but has actually never produced a single Joule of energy over what it takes to run his motors.... and some of the people who are working with you now are the same ones he had in thrall for all that time. Many others built his designs with his advice at every step and found.... nothing, but spent lots of money and time to find it. And now you are essentially repeating the same folly, and you even have his help! This is hilarious.

5. It is _always_ up to the claimant to prove that their claims are _true_. No amount of outside experimentation that is unsuccessful would be accepted by people who believe that your unsupported claims are true. You make an extraordinary claim that would turn conventional physics on its ear, but you provide absolutely no evidence that your claims are true. This is faith, religion, not science. Prove your claims first, and _then_ get people to replicate them. Anything else is simply dishonest, pseudoscientific misconduct.

6. Nobody has ever given any coherent reason why my proposed tests are invalid or inappropriate or unscientific ... because they aren't.


And in another week, month and year, there will STILL be no self-running magnet motor coming from you or any of the people in your cult at EF.

Just think of how easy it would be to prove me wrong. But you cannot.... so you try to turn the issue around and ask _me_ to do your work for you. You are following the "free energy" false claimant script to the letter. Perhaps you are new to this field, but some of us have quite a bit of experience in the matter and you can take my word for it... we've seen it time and time again and the results are always the same. If you think you are any different... then PROVE IT. But you cannot.

Go ahead, perform the basic rundown tests on your rotor without magnets (but equal weights in their place), or encourage your builders to do so. Then you will be able to see that _all and any_ of your additions like ramps, angled magnets etc. only cause further braking, and none actually add the least bit of energy to the system.  Why not, what have you got to lose? Are you perhaps afraid to do it? Or do you _already know_ that I am right about this, perhaps?



Putting words in your mouth that you never uttered? SO you didn't post this, then?
Really? As if that would prove anything to the likes of the people here. Do you understand the difference between public and private?C'mon TK. Is that the best you can come up with?
This thread is nothing but a personal smear. Not one post has been made that scientifically refutes any part of what I have posted publicly about the motor design.

Don't worry. This thread seems to be fully capable of generating a hundred more pages of crap without my help.

Mack

You actually have more critics in your thread on EF than you do here. They are telling you that your ramps and whatnot are creating drag, not adding thrust, just as I have done.

 

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