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Author Topic: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]  (Read 94350 times)

Offline hoptoad

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2015, 04:32:12 AM »

Of course ! Only you (plus some few others) can understand the simplicity and genious of this construction. It's not easy to build, and not very efficient due to mechanical ratchet device.
I have no ability to build it, but if you can and make it please let me know.
Patent (application) attached. The key theme I spotted is the different construction, adding additional axis of freedom to movement.I guess it may work due to Newton laws ! - imho - if you have a two massive wheels , one running in one direction and second running in opposite direction attached to the same shaft cleverly then the total sum of momentum is zero!
Indeed. I can understand why many here, including myself will not attempt to build this. It looks like it requires a fair degree of mechanical aptitude and machining resources. Most people here, including myself, are more likely to build things that are electronic and not mechanical in nature.

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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2015, 06:23:46 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtMZpDSCFEI&feature=youtu.be

from here

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20239-magnet-motor-revelation-19.html

thx for looking and commenting.

Chet K

This is the same mistake almost everyone makes with these things..."Well, it does not work with one stator, so I will add another.." and so on.  IF this design would ever work, it would only need one stator.  He could add 20 of them and it will still not work.  He is simply adding more sticky points.

That is a nice looking build though. I'll say that for him.

Bill

Offline forest

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2015, 07:57:26 AM »
Very true.  ;D

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2015, 07:57:26 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2015, 08:58:46 AM »
No, I disagree. And that's why I've advocated the stepwise testing against a blank, inert system consisting of the rotor with nonmagnetic weights instead of magnets and no stators.

Timing the rundown from a known starting impulse or RPM will allow you (or would allow ME, at least) to calculate the actual power dissipation of the blank rotor. Then adding the magnets and one stator and repeating the rundown time would allow the experimenter to see whether the single stator/magnet arrangement added a little drag, or a little thrust. It's possible that you only would get a small amount of thrust (added power) from a single stator, not enough to make it keep running but enough to offset _some_ of the power dissipation of the blank system. The rotor would take longer to run down in that case .  Add, say, six stators, all adding their slight amount of thrust (power), and perhaps they would be enough to more than offset the power dissipation of the blank rotor, and the device would speed up until bearing friction and windage again matched the added power and the thing would run along at a constant speed. Each stator would not be enough on its own but a number of them might add together to make the desired effect.

However the reverse is also true.... if an individual stator adds _drag_ instead of thrust, or does nothing (neither adds power nor dissipates it) then adding more of the same will only drag you down faster ( or do nothing) . But without doing the actual comparison testing against a blank system, you'll never know. Pushing around with Mister Hand, changing things because it doesn't continue to run, is just a waste of time and doesn't produce any Real Data that allows for making valid conclusions about whether or not your stator design is going to work or not. It's comical, to think that the experimenters might be missing the "correct" design entirely because they aren't making any real, valid, comparison tests against the blank system.

It's even more comical, since one reason they aren't doing this is _because the suggestion comes from me_.  An hour's worth of actual testing would tell them instantly whether or not their stator designs are helping (adding some power) or hurting (only adding drag), even with testing just a single stator and comparing against the blank inert system. 

Of course we know that there is no possible added thrust from any stator configuration they can come up with... and since actual testing would demonstrate this, they are not doing it, out of fear of what they might find.

Offline tinman

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2015, 11:35:11 AM »
No, I disagree. And that's why I've advocated the stepwise testing against a blank, inert system consisting of the rotor with nonmagnetic weights instead of magnets and no stators.

Timing the rundown from a known starting impulse or RPM will allow you (or would allow ME, at least) to calculate the actual power dissipation of the blank rotor. Then adding the magnets and one stator and repeating the rundown time would allow the experimenter to see whether the single stator/magnet arrangement added a little drag, or a little thrust. It's possible that you only would get a small amount of thrust (added power) from a single stator, not enough to make it keep running but enough to offset _some_ of the power dissipation of the blank system. The rotor would take longer to run down in that case .  Add, say, six stators, all adding their slight amount of thrust (power), and perhaps they would be enough to more than offset the power dissipation of the blank rotor, and the device would speed up until bearing friction and windage again matched the added power and the thing would run along at a constant speed. Each stator would not be enough on its own but a number of them might add together to make the desired effect.

However the reverse is also true.... if an individual stator adds _drag_ instead of thrust, or does nothing (neither adds power nor dissipates it) then adding more of the same will only drag you down faster ( or do nothing) . But without doing the actual comparison testing against a blank system, you'll never know. Pushing around with Mister Hand, changing things because it doesn't continue to run, is just a waste of time and doesn't produce any Real Data that allows for making valid conclusions about whether or not your stator design is going to work or not. It's comical, to think that the experimenters might be missing the "correct" design entirely because they aren't making any real, valid, comparison tests against the blank system.

It's even more comical, since one reason they aren't doing this is _because the suggestion comes from me_.  An hour's worth of actual testing would tell them instantly whether or not their stator designs are helping (adding some power) or hurting (only adding drag), even with testing just a single stator and comparing against the blank inert system. 

Of course we know that there is no possible added thrust from any stator configuration they can come up with... and since actual testing would demonstrate this, they are not doing it, out of fear of what they might find.

Oh come now TK,even when people do carry out careful testing with and without the magnets in place-(even going as far as adding weights that equal the weight of the magnet that will be placed in that position during the second half of the test),and show a positive result,they get comments like this : Next, we'll learn how _springs_ can "do useful work".

If not the magnets doing useful work,then maybe magic?.
No magic in this one TK,and easily replicated-by those that stick to design parameters,and dont go off on there own tangent,and then wonder why they didnt get the same result's.
Things are often designed the way they are because they work-yea?,and when you deviate from that design,there is every chance that it wont work.

Anyway,things are what they are,and i can achieve the same results over and over again-just by adding the magnets. The same go's for say a solenoid engine,where a solenoid with a steel cylinder is used,and a steel slug for the piston. Remove the steel cylinder,replace with say a nylon one,and replace the steel piston with a magnet,and you will get much more power out for the same power in-while maintaining the same heat output from the solenoid coil-so where did the extra energy come from?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhLlI8gclZQ

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2015, 11:35:11 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #125 on: October 13, 2015, 11:53:00 AM »
Here is something to think about. There is no electric motor in the world that is as efficient as one that uses PM's as 1 half of the desired magnetic field-none. The reason is that motors without PM's need to use power in order to create  the whole desired magnetic fields in order to work.

So remember-DC PM motors are the most efficient in the world to date.
I would say that that is pretty useful  ;)


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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #126 on: October 13, 2015, 04:48:54 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #127 on: October 13, 2015, 08:35:05 PM »
Mack,

I left the Erroneous Forum because of your thread about the magnet motor and one other thread.  When I first saw your thread I thought you might possibly have something.  I try to always keep an open mind.  I have never successfully made a magnet motor but that doesn't mean it is not possible as far as I am concerned.  I even posted some pictures in your thread showing how to find the exact center of a disc and how to mark it so you could be more accurate in mounting your magnets.

Then the two buffoons of the Erroneous Forum show up and try to totally derail your thread.  I have to admire the way you keep bringing it back on track.  However the fact you encouraged them led me to believe you are not serious about really sharing a working magnet motor.

I was a member of that forum for several years.  I attended the first energy conference with several members of that forum.  A couple of years ago Dufo showed up with his bait and switch tactics telling everyone he knew how to build a better motor.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt but I spent most of my career working on motors and can spot BS about motors pretty quickly.  It soon became apparent that if anyone actually started questioning any of the technical aspects of his claims they would be ridiculed instead of answered.

Bro. Mouthy has learned well from Dufo.  Anytime anyone tries to ask technical questions about the Gerard Morin claims Mouthy follows that with ridicule and slander.

I got totally tired of being harassed for asking questions so I left.

My question to you is:  If you really want someone to take you seriously, then why are you encouraging those two?  You have had to correct Dufo's pretty CAD pictures over and over because he thinks he know more than anyone else.

I hope I am wrong, but at this point I see no hope that anyone will ever see a working magnet motor from your thread.  I mean no disrespect to you but I see the company you are associating with and that is not encouraging.

Sincerely and respectfully,
Carroll

Offline shylo

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #128 on: October 14, 2015, 03:04:40 AM »
Hi Carroll,
Do you think or have you seen "magnetic shunting" is it possible?
Other than winding a coil around said magnet and pulsing it to create an opposite field?
Also alot of people use FEMM but I don't believe it is capable of giving true results.
Ramps and trying to shield magnetic fields , there's gotta be something more.
TK, If I start my single magnet at TDC from a balance point, let it go and rotates 350* ,then add some steel at 350*, repeat now the magnet travels 365*, is that considered a gain?
artv

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #128 on: October 14, 2015, 03:04:40 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #129 on: October 14, 2015, 03:26:19 AM »
Hi art,

No I haven't seen any magnetic shunting.  I am open to the idea that it is possible.  That is an idea I want to try for my own version of a magnet motor.  I have been really busy lately with travel and getting a house ready to sell.  As soon as I get some time I want to try some of Mack's ideas.  I already know that what he told us about being able to cancel the rotor magnets with the proper placement of the stator magnets does work.  I am not going to dismiss Mack or his ideas without at least making an effort to verify his claims.  I just don't feel like wading through all the foolishness that has now overtaken his thread on the EF.  So if he adds anything new please pass it along and I will try it.

Later,
Carroll

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #130 on: October 14, 2015, 04:27:02 AM »
Quote
Anyway,things are what they are,and i can achieve the same results over and over again-just by adding the magnets. The same go's for say a solenoid engine,where a solenoid with a steel cylinder is used,and a steel slug for the piston. Remove the steel cylinder,replace with say a nylon one,and replace the steel piston with a magnet,and you will get much more power out for the same power in-while maintaining the same heat output from the solenoid coil-so where did the extra energy come from?.

"Proof that Magnets CAN do useful work"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhLlI8gclZQ

So what do we see in your clip?  You have some kind of solenoid motor that is optically triggered and makes a drum spin.  Then you swap out some of solenoid parts for magnets and then the drum spins at roughly the same speed but the current consumption is about half.

So does that mean that magnets can do useful work?

Absolutely not, magnets are still dead as proverbial doornails.  They can not do useful work.

So how do you explain what is happening in the clip?

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #130 on: October 14, 2015, 04:27:02 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #131 on: October 14, 2015, 04:35:22 AM »
(snip)
TK, If I start my single magnet at TDC from a balance point, let it go and rotates 350* ,then add some steel at 350*, repeat now the magnet travels 365*, is that considered a gain?
artv
You might think so, but it's the "wrong" experiment. Ask yourself why it doesn't just keep on rotating if it actually has travelled 365 degrees. You are misleading yourself by performing a "Confirmatory" experiment rather than one that could potentially disconfirm your idea.

Try this. Remove your "single magnet" and replace it with a simple chunk of lead or modelling clay of the same weight. Keep your added steel in place. Now use some reliable and repeatable method to spin up your rotor with a known input of energy, or to a precisely known RPM, and time the rundown time. Do this several times and take the average, so you smooth out random errors from the data. Then replace the magnet and repeat the process with the same energy input or precise RPM and time the rundown time. Again, take the average of several trials. Which condition takes longer to run down?

Or, do the same kind of thing comparing the rotor with magnet but _no_ steel at 350 degrees, with the full system including the added steel. Which takes longer to run down?

The steel is attracted by the magnet, both as the magnet approaches the steel and as it moves away. But this interaction is symmetrical and should neither add nor subtract energy from the system. However, the moving magnet will cause eddy currents in the steel, which _do_ subtract energy from the motion of the magnet and dissipate it as heat. So the presence of the steel should actually cause the system to run down faster (take less time to come to a stop) than the "blank" control runs with either no magnet or no steel in place. (All this assumes good bearings that aren't affected by the asymmetrical loading caused by the design. If the bearings have too much play... that will be yet another loss mechanism and cause even shorter rundown times.)

The key is figuring out some way to provide that repeatable starting input without interference or help from Mister Hand (who after all knows what you are trying to "prove" and will help you out, even without you knowing it).  A weight-drop pulling a string wrapped around the rotor or its axle, as I showed in the "Mondrasek" video linked earlier, is one way. Using air-blast and a precise tachometer is another way but not as simple as the weight on a string. It is just not possible to do the precise starting impulse with your hand alone.

I hope you do the experiment I suggested, and report your results here. A video would be nice as well.

Offline tinman

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #132 on: October 14, 2015, 06:27:24 AM »
So what do we see in your clip?  You have some kind of solenoid motor that is optically triggered and makes a drum spin.  Then you swap out some of solenoid parts for magnets and then the drum spins at roughly the same speed but the current consumption is about half.

So does that mean that magnets can do useful work?

Absolutely not, magnets are still dead as proverbial doornails.  They can not do useful work.

So how do you explain what is happening in the clip?

Solenoid motor?
Not sure what ypu watched MH, but my setup uses a DC PM motor for the mechanical rotation. The only thing I change is the counter weight for 1fixed permanent magney, and 1 permanent magnet on the controll are. We then spin the DUT up again to find that with the PMs installed, the DC motor now requires less current at the set voltage, meaning that the motor is now spinning faster for less power input. The only change we made was adding 2PMs to the system.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #133 on: October 14, 2015, 06:50:28 AM »
Solenoid motor?
Not sure what ypu watched MH, but my setup uses a DC PM motor for the mechanical rotation. The only thing I change is the counter weight for 1fixed permanent magney, and 1 permanent magnet on the controll are. We then spin the DUT up again to find that with the PMs installed, the DC motor now requires less current at the set voltage, meaning that the motor is now spinning faster for less power input. The only change we made was adding 2PMs to the system.

Sorry I watched the clip yesterday and now I recall seeing the vertical axis DC motor.  Yes, you added the magnets and the power consumption went down.  The real question is were the magnets doing useful work or was something else happening?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]
« Reply #134 on: October 14, 2015, 07:35:03 AM »
Brad:

Okay, I thought of an easy way to get my point across.   We will just use imaginary power consumption figures:

Setup without magnets:  4 watts power consumption
Setup with magnets:  2 watts power consumption

So, the question is did the magnets do useful work?

You are saying the magnets did do useful work, implying that they are a source of power.  I am saying that is not the case.

Here is the crux of the matter?   What is the actual output of the device?  Let's say that the mechanical power required to overcome the bearing and air friction to make the drum spin is the actual output and anything that is not the actual output is simply electrical power turned into waste heat power.

Here is the key point that you are not considering:  The actual mechanical power required for overcoming the bearing and air friction is only 0.2 watts.  In many setups it's very difficult or sometimes nearly impossible to make this measurement.

<<<< Sidebar:  The best measurement technique for an amateur experimenter to estimate this actual mechanical power needed for keeping a rotor spinning at a given RPM is the spin-down technique.  I am only aware of TK doing this measurement.  If you want to up your game, and this applies to all people that make some kind of spinning rotor device, then you should figure out how to make this measurement.  Even if it is only +/-20% accurate, that is a hell of a lot better than no estimate at all. >>>>

Now, with that knowledge, let's look at the numbers again:

Setup without magnets:  4 watts electrical power consumption
Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts
Efficiency: 5%

Setup with magnets:  2 watts power consumption
Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts
Efficiency: 10%

Do you see, adding the magnets only improved the efficiency of the setup so that it went from 5% to 10%.  The magnets did ZERO WORK, the only thing they did was change the efficiency of the setup and nothing else.


Here is what you would have to see for "Proof that Magnets CAN do useful work:"

Setup with magnets:  0.18 watts power consumption
Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts
Efficiency: 111%

Do you see what's happening with the numbers?  We are imagining that you have a setup with a motor that is 100% efficient overall to start with, and then you add magnets and the magnets themselves "CAN do useful work" and they CONTRIBUTE 0.02 watts of mechanical power to the system.

The problem is that when you do an experiment where you add magnets and see better numbers that NEVER happens.   What you actually see is something like this:

Setup without magnets:  4 watts electrical power consumption
(Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts - YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE THIS AND YOU CAN'T REALLY MEASURE THIS)
Efficiency: 5%

Setup with magnets:  2 watts power consumption
(Actual mechanical power output:  0.2 watts - YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE THIS AND YOU CAN'T REALLY MEASURE THIS)
Efficiency: 10%

When you add magnets to a setup and see better numbers all that you are really doing is making the setup more efficient and reducing the waste heat production.  You are NEVER showing "Proof that Magnets CAN do useful work."

Please think seriously about this example.  It does not matter that the numbers are hypothetical, it's the concept that you need to understand.

 

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