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Author Topic: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours  (Read 53301 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #75 on: August 06, 2015, 03:33:44 PM »
I wasn't referring to conservation of momentum.  The boat example is in reference to phase displacement and motion without inertia or resistance.  In other words, there is no external or outside force acting on the boat to give it a net motion.

Gravock

Rock-et motor
The ejection of mass-nothing more,nothing less.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline gravityblock

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2015, 03:40:27 PM »
Rock-et motor
The ejection of mass-nothing more,nothing less.

Wrong!  A rocket doesn't eject mass in opposite directions to achieve motion as is being done with throwing rocks from a boat in opposite directions.  Ejecting mass in opposite directions from a rocket simultaneously or throwing rocks of equal mass from a boat simultaneously in opposite directions doesn't induce a net motion (the forces are cancelled).  However, throwing rocks of equal mass in opposite directions at different times does induce a net motion through phase displacement, which is motion without inertia or resistance.

Gravock

Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2015, 03:58:11 PM »
Wrong!  A rocket doesn't eject mass in opposite directions to achieve motion as is being done with throwing rocks from a boat in opposite directions.  Ejecting mass in opposite directions from a rocket simultaneously or throwing rocks of equal mass from a boat simultaneously in opposite directions doesn't induce a net motion (the forces are cancelled).  However, throwing rocks of equal mass in opposite directions at different times does induce a net motion through phase displacement, which is motion without inertia or resistance.

Gravock
Rockets operate on the basis of Newton's Third Law:  They eject propellant in one direction creating a reaction force that accelerates the rocket in the opposite direction.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2015, 03:58:11 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2015, 04:06:50 PM »
Rockets operate on the basis of Newton's Third Law:  They eject propellant in one direction creating a reaction force that accelerates the rocket in the opposite direction.

ROFLMAO.  Yes, and this is the reason why a rocket isn't the same as throwing rocks in opposite directions simultaneously from a boat in order to achieve motion.  According to Newton's Third Law, the forces should be cancelled when throwing rocks in opposite directions from a boat, but this isn't always the case as previously shown by the boat/rock example.


Gravock

Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2015, 04:16:31 PM »
I wasn't referring to conservation of momentum.  The boat example is in reference to phase displacement and motion without inertia or resistance.  In other words, there is no resistance or external force acting on the boat to give it a net motion.

Gravock
The boat example does not negate inertia.  It demonstrates it.  Let us assume that the water is frictionless as was stated.  The boat accelerates in the opposite direction of each ejected mass.  When the first mass is ejected, the boat attains a velocity proportional to the ejected mass and inversely proportional to the remaining mass of the boat.  When the second mass is ejected, the boat velocity changes by an amount proportional to the speed of the second mass and inversely proportional to the newly reduced mass of the boat.  If the two ejected masses are equal and their velocities relative to the external frame of reference are equal and opposite then the boat comes to rest albeit at a position that has shifted from the starting point.  If an equal amount of energy is imparted to each mass as it is thrown, then the boat ends up moving at a low speed in the same direction as the first rock was thrown.  This is all because of Newton's three laws.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2015, 04:16:31 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2015, 04:17:25 PM »
ROFLMAO.  Yes, and this is the reason why a rocket isn't the same as throwing rocks in opposite directions simultaneously from a boat in order to achieve motion.  According to Newton's Third Law, the forces should be cancelled when throwing rocks in opposite directions from a boat, but this isn't always the case as previously shown by the boat/rock example.


Gravock
I get the idea that you are having trouble with integral calculus.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2015, 04:47:09 PM »
The boat example does not negate inertia.  It demonstrates it.  Let us assume that the water is frictionless as was stated.  The boat accelerates in the opposite direction of each ejected mass.  When the first mass is ejected, the boat attains a velocity proportional to the ejected mass and inversely proportional to the remaining mass of the boat.  When the second mass is ejected, the boat velocity changes by an amount proportional to the speed of the second mass and inversely proportional to the newly reduced mass of the boat.  If the two ejected masses are equal and their velocities relative to the external frame of reference are equal and opposite then the boat comes to rest albeit at a position that has shifted from the starting point.  If an equal amount of energy is imparted to each mass as it is thrown, then the boat ends up moving at a low speed in the same direction as the first rock was thrown.  This is all because of Newton's three laws.

Read the publication MarkE.  It says, "And suppose such process were sufficiently prolonged and had wave nature, i.e. were invisible and proceeded without the loss of mass?"  You need to improve on your reading comprehension.  It's one of the reasons why you always take things out of context and mix things together that was meant to be separate from one another.  The below comic is a good illustration in how MarkE the downer is disconnected, as shown by his replies.

Gravock

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2015, 04:47:09 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2015, 04:52:06 PM »
I get the idea that you are having trouble with integral calculus.

I get the idea you can't grasp the elementary truths of this world.  Integral calculus doesn't even come into the equation in the boat/rock example, since the mass of the boat was to remain the same throughout the throwing of the rocks.  One false hood or wrong assumption (mass being reduced) led to a greater false hood (integral calculus).  LOL.

Gravock

Offline allcanadian

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2015, 05:57:22 PM »
@Gravityblock
Quote
A rocket doesn't eject mass in opposite directions to achieve motion as is
being done with throwing rocks from a boat in opposite directions.  Ejecting
mass in opposite directions from a rocket simultaneously or throwing rocks of
equal mass from a boat simultaneously in opposite directions doesn't induce a
net motion (the forces are cancelled).  However, throwing rocks of equal mass in
opposite directions at different times does induce a net motion through phase
displacement, which is motion without inertia or resistance.

Cancellation also relates to Gravity. If we drop a lead ball and a cork ball of equal size the force of gravity is much greater on the lead ball having more mass. The force of Gravity is greater on the lead ball because it has more mass however the counter-force of Inertia is also greater for the same reason. When we drop our balls in the same instant from the same height gravity accelerates the ball downward as Inertia resists this acceleration and they cancel... which is why the lead ball and the cork ball hit the ground at the same time.
 
The quagmire here is that we conceive that Gravity must be a force acting between two objects causing them to accelerate towards one another . If Gravity is a force causing the objects to accelerate towards each other and Inertia is a counter-force which resists this acceleration then how can this counter-force apply itself on a free falling body?. A force cannot act on itself in itself which is absurd thus it would seem to me the Gravity-Inertia relationship must both relate to external forces acting on the mass internally. In my mind it is absurd that anyone would presume the property of Inertia just is or that it is simply a property of mass. All motion/acceleration and the resistance to motion/acceleration must always relate to tangible forces on some level at some point in time. Thus when someone tells me inertia is just a property of mass I consider there intellect to be on the same level as people who speak of something from nothing and perpetual motion machines because something cannot act on nothing... it is not an option.
 
@Mark E
Science is not a religion and your quoting your scripture holds no weight unless you can explain real world examples in a tangible way. Inertia amounts to something acting on nothing and as I said that is not an option because it is simply a different flavor of fairy tale... nothing more.
 
AC
 

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2015, 05:57:22 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #84 on: August 06, 2015, 06:28:18 PM »
@Gravityblock
Cancellation also relates to Gravity. If we drop a lead ball and a cork ball of equal size the force of gravity is much greater on the lead ball having more mass. The force of Gravity is greater on the lead ball because it has more mass however the counter-force of Inertia is also greater for the same reason. When we drop our balls in the same instant from the same height gravity accelerates the ball downward as Inertia resists this acceleration and they cancel... which is why the lead ball and the cork ball hit the ground at the same time.
 
The quagmire here is that we conceive that Gravity must be a force acting between two objects causing them to accelerate towards one another . If Gravity is a force causing the objects to accelerate towards each other and Inertia is a counter-force which resists this acceleration then how can this counter-force apply itself on a free falling body?. A force cannot act on itself in itself which is absurd thus it would seem to me the Gravity-Inertia relationship must both relate to external forces acting on the mass internally. In my mind it is absurd that anyone would presume the property of Inertia just is or that it is simply a property of mass. All motion/acceleration and the resistance to motion/acceleration must always relate to tangible forces on some level at some point in time. Thus when someone tells me inertia is just a property of mass I consider there intellect to be on the same level as people who speak of something from nothing and perpetual motion machines because something cannot act on nothing... it is not an option.
 
AC

Well said!  What you're saying isn't much different than what RD is saying.

According to RD, an object has a ‘feel’ of inertia when force is applied not to all object’s elements at once, but to some of them.  If it were applied to all at once as is the case with gravitation, the feeling of inertia would be absent.  I agree, the Gravity-Inertia relationship must both relate to external forces acting on the mass internally.

Gravock

Offline gravityblock

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #85 on: August 06, 2015, 07:03:35 PM »
Thus when someone tells me inertia is just a property of mass I consider there intellect to be on the same level as people who speak of something from nothing and perpetual motion machines because something cannot act on nothing... it is not an option.
 
AC

Many things are beyond a person's scope of understanding not because of their poor reasoning power, but because of the narrowness of their scope.  MarkE and Dan the downer are good examples of this.  The narrowness of a person's scope can lead to misunderstandings and absurdities.

Gravock

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #85 on: August 06, 2015, 07:03:35 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #86 on: August 06, 2015, 07:44:05 PM »
@Gravityblock
Quote
Many things are beyond a person's scope of understanding not because of their
poor reasoning power, but because of the narrowness of their scope.  MarkE and
Dan the downer are good examples of this.  The narrowness of a person's scope
can lead to misunderstandings and absurdities.

Edit: my last post was just nitpicking
I think this is where theory and philosophy come into play because we cannot build what we cannot imagine. We can do all the experiments we want however if we cannot exceed our own limitations then we are not going anywhere.
Quote
For more information, see Rhythmodynamics of Nature.
Awesome link...Thanks
 
AC

 

 

 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 11:22:13 PM by allcanadian »

Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2015, 01:06:37 AM »
I get the idea you can't grasp the elementary truths of this world.  Integral calculus doesn't even come into the equation in the boat/rock example, since the mass of the boat was to remain the same throughout the throwing of the rocks.  One false hood or wrong assumption (mass being reduced) led to a greater false hood (integral calculus).  LOL.

Gravock
Actually integral calculus is very important to the example.  The two separate actions of ejecting the two rocks under the conditions stipulated result in net changes of velocity: integrals of acceleration.  Had no rock been ejected, the boat would have had some position versus time profile in the reference frame.  Ejecting each rock alters the motion of the boat.  In the simplest case, the boat would have been initially stationary in the frame.  The momentum of either ejected rock in the reference frame and the ratios of the masses after the ejection determines the total change in velocity of the boat.  The boat's position integrates that change in velocity forever, as it does all subsequent changes in velocity.

Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #88 on: August 07, 2015, 01:22:46 AM »
@Gravityblock
Cancellation also relates to Gravity. If we drop a lead ball and a cork ball of equal size the force of gravity is much greater on the lead ball having more mass. The force of Gravity is greater on the lead ball because it has more mass however the counter-force of Inertia is also greater for the same reason. When we drop our balls in the same instant from the same height gravity accelerates the ball downward as Inertia resists this acceleration and they cancel... which is why the lead ball and the cork ball hit the ground at the same time.
 
The quagmire here is that we conceive that Gravity must be a force acting between two objects causing them to accelerate towards one another . If Gravity is a force causing the objects to accelerate towards each other and Inertia is a counter-force which resists this acceleration then how can this counter-force apply itself on a free falling body?. A force cannot act on itself in itself which is absurd thus it would seem to me the Gravity-Inertia relationship must both relate to external forces acting on the mass internally. In my mind it is absurd that anyone would presume the property of Inertia just is or that it is simply a property of mass. All motion/acceleration and the resistance to motion/acceleration must always relate to tangible forces on some level at some point in time. Thus when someone tells me inertia is just a property of mass I consider there intellect to be on the same level as people who speak of something from nothing and perpetual motion machines because something cannot act on nothing... it is not an option.
 
@Mark E
Science is not a religion and your quoting your scripture holds no weight unless you can explain real world examples in a tangible way. Inertia amounts to something acting on nothing and as I said that is not an option because it is simply a different flavor of fairy tale... nothing more.
 
AC
Round and round we go.  Unless you reject Newton's Laws: force accelerates mass.  The property of inertia simply expresses that relationship.  If you wish to insist that inertia is a force then without me specifying a location, kindly tell me how many Newton's a 1kg mass exerts, and in what direction that force vector points.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2015, 02:12:55 AM »

@Mark E


Quote
Round and round we go. 
Round and round we go indeed however I had to get off the merry-go-round a long time ago because it made me dizzy,lol.



Quote
Unless you reject Newton's Laws: force accelerates mass.
I accept the fact a tangible force is required to accelerate any mass however I also accept the fact this accelerating force is resisted.... did Newton happen to mention the fact one force acting on a mass can only be resisted by another force?.



Quote
If you wish to insist that inertia is a force then without me specifying a location, kindly tell me how many Newton's a 1kg mass exerts, and in what direction that force vector points.
I have been down that road twisting and turning this way and that and I always ended right back where I started...go figure. Thus I choose not to participate in such things, as you say round and round.



AC

 

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