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Author Topic: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours  (Read 44641 times)

Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2015, 03:55:54 AM »

 
@Mark E
I would say that near or far is irrelevant with respect to the fact one craft made a controlled turn at extremely high speed then accelerated near vertically until it was out of sight. Near of far it accelerated from horizontal to vertical like a bat out of hell with no sound, no plume and no vapor trail. In any case millions of people have observed similar things and many are trained observers like policemen, the military and aviators of unquestionable credibility. I would think a trained observer seeing an object at relatively close range would have the ultimate in credibility versus someone who has never actually observed anything, wouldn't you agree?.
I understand your point I really do however I know what I saw and many others have seen very similar things as well and to say it is impossible is to presume hundreds of thousands of people are somehow misguided. I dispute that anyone would think so many professional people who are trained observers are mistaken in what they saw based on others opinions who have never observed anything. You cannot argue facts when you have none, the fact is I saw it for myself first hand and there is no mistaking it was not conventional in any sense of the word.
Saying what I saw cannot be real just because you have never seen it is not a valid argument because that would mean everything you have never seen cannot be real either. You are highly illogical.
 
AC
One can't estimate speed without knowing distance.  I don't see any means that you would have had to set distance. 

Observers can only perceive what their faculties allow.  Our brains apply all kinds of biases.  If our faculties could not be readily fooled then people like magicians would have a hard time making a living. 

I've told you that there is insufficient reliable data to agree with your conclusions.  If you want to build and strike down a straw man; then have a great time slaying such beasts. 

That many people think that they have seen something suggests a common phenomenon.  It does not suggest what the phenomenon is. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2015, 04:33:58 AM »
One can't estimate speed without knowing distance.  I don't see any means that you would have had to set distance. 

Observers can only perceive what their faculties allow.  Our brains apply all kinds of biases.  If our faculties could not be readily fooled then people like magicians would have a hard time making a living. 

I've told you that there is insufficient reliable data to agree with your conclusions.  If you want to build and strike down a straw man; then have a great time slaying such beasts. 

That many people think that they have seen something suggests a common phenomenon.  It does not suggest what the phenomenon is.

Exactly right.  I could fly a small quad copter drone 1,000 ft. from your position at night, make it hover, and then blast up into the sky at thousands of miles and hour.  Well, not that fast obviously but, if you thought my drone to be 20-30 ft. in diameter, and ten miles away...your mind would be fooled into thinking it was going upwards that fast.

No point or frame of reference, to size and distance, means all of those observations are meaningless.

A friend of mine once called me outside to see a real ufo.  He was serious and he had not been drinking.  (I can't speak for AC)  After watching this greenish glowing light dart all over the night sky for about 5 minutes, performing all sorts of impossible maneuvers like instantly reversing direction, going straight up at high speed, diving again and then hovering...all with no sound whatsoever.

I went inside and got a high powered flashlight and showed my friend he was simply watching a lightning bug.  He was dumbfound and surprised.
The mind is easily fooled.

Bill

Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2015, 04:44:40 AM »
@All


On reading my last post I now understand how pointless it was because the fact remains that the odds of anyone proving to me that I did not actually observe what I know I did as a fact is basically zero. It is absurd and pointless and it is what it is , you cannot convince someone to un-observe what they have already observed as a known fact. However if 80% of the population believes a bearded man in a white dress created the universe in six days and maybe 40% believe in wormholes, warping space-time and virtual particles popping in and out of existence from multiple parallel universes then maybe just maybe my believing I saw an unknown craft/object doing some strange shit in the sky I don't fully understand doesn't seem like a big deal in comparison.


As well the hypocrisy is mind boggling because many people who would believe a supposed god created the universe in six days routinely judge other people who claim to have seen an unidentified(unknown)flying(it's relative) object(again it's relative) as crazy or misguided. I find this hard to fathom and it just seems so utterly ridiculous that it defies the imagination, apparently god doesn't believe in other intelligent life or UFO's either... go figure. Then we have that other kind of religion based on supposed science that never actually was and people say they require proof to believe but don't actually have any...  again go figure. The common thread here is people who judge others as crazy for believing without proof despite the fact they don't actually have any real proof either way about much of anything.


It is without a doubt in my mind the most messed up scenario of logic I could possibly image and I'm just not feeling the vulcan type deep logic I expected here. It is a superficial quagmire of the truly illogical where people try to disprove a concept by challenging the credibility of the individual despite the fact they claim the concept must stand on it's own. In effect we have turned science into a pissing contest and while I'm not against such things I still believe it must have it's place in the proper context.


At which point we are left with the question as to why nobody would touch my simple question concerning Inertia with a ten foot pole. That is what is inertia specifically, fundamentally?, I know you want to run and avoid it like the plague and you have no idea where to even start however in this respect I may be able to help. So let's go there, to that place you fear most... I'm sure Mark thinks he is up to it however thinking and believing rarely resemble the true facts of any matter, time will tell. Let's get in on... Brother.


From the Urban Dictionary
Brother: a person whom you are related to. sometimes a role model. sometimes an ass. sometimes a friend. a person who you are stuck being related to until the day you die through good or bad


AC
First:  Your conclusions as to what you think you saw are extraordinary.  Your evidence consists of your personal perceptions.  Human perceptions are highly error prone.  Faulty human perceptions are what cause things like experienced pilots to put a plane into a near vertical stall and keep it there from 35,000 feet to the ocean surface.

People who believe in a hairy fonderer or cosmic muffin will one day have to answer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  He will take care of them appropriately.  Much of the rest of what you argue is based on the the gap of the gods logical fallacy.  Science is based on obtaining reliable evidence.  It has the risk of being as wrong as the evidence is consistent.  What it overcomes is postulates that do not hold up to reliable evidence.  It is because it adjusts to reliable evidence as that evidence is found that every year science expands rather than misdirects our feeble understanding of the universe.

Inertia is like many things: an observed behavior. 


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2015, 04:44:40 AM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2015, 07:27:59 AM »
@Mark E
Quote
Inertia is like many things: an observed behavior. 


Oh well that explains a lot..... It's  just an observed behavior that's all, thanks for that great insight mark.... well done.



AC

Offline Jimboot

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2015, 01:03:31 PM »
First:  Your conclusions as to what you think you saw are extraordinary.  Your evidence consists of your personal perceptions.  Human perceptions are highly error prone.  Faulty human perceptions are what cause things like experienced pilots to put a plane into a near vertical stall and keep it there from 35,000 feet to the ocean surface.

People who believe in a hairy fonderer or cosmic muffin will one day have to answer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  He will take care of them appropriately.  Much of the rest of what you argue is based on the the gap of the gods logical fallacy.  Science is based on obtaining reliable evidence.  It has the risk of being as wrong as the evidence is consistent.  What it overcomes is postulates that do not hold up to reliable evidence.  It is because it adjusts to reliable evidence as that evidence is found that every year science expands rather than misdirects our feeble understanding of the universe.

Inertia is like many things: an observed behavior.
there's still that whole big bang thing though. Seems to me they're leaving that up to the holy triumphant Godmeiseter. Can't find where the extra energy is? Invent some dark energy. There must be more matter too... ahhaaa dark matter! Oh yeah and black holes . Sorry been watching too much EU stuff.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2015, 01:03:31 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2015, 01:55:49 PM »
there's still that whole big bang thing though. Seems to me they're leaving that up to the holy triumphant Godmeiseter. Can't find where the extra energy is? Invent some dark energy. There must be more matter too... ahhaaa dark matter! Oh yeah and black holes . Sorry been watching too much EU stuff.
The dark matter and dark energy ideas are just hypotheses.  We observe what we can with all our limitations, form hypotheses, and then look for ways to test those hypotheses.  The dark matter and dark energy hypotheses have been proposed in order to deal with various inconsistent observations.  As we eventually get better observations the dark matter and dark energy hypotheses will either gain evidentiary support or lose out to contradictory evidence.

Offline Jimboot

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2015, 03:18:35 PM »
As we eventually get better observations the dark matter and dark energy hypotheses will either gain evidentiary support or lose out to contradictory evidence.
Haven't the eu guys already done that?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2015, 03:18:35 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2015, 04:03:58 PM »
Haven't the eu guys already done that?
AFAIK they have not developed enough evidence to get a consensus going.

Offline allcanadian

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2015, 05:49:24 PM »
You guys just keep spinning your wheels but your not going anywhere so maybe it's time we get a grip and do some thought experiments. I like thought experiments because it allows us to play god when doing experiments to see what might happen. Since I am now a god I will not be held to the misconceptions of puny mortals on some backwater planet you call Earth and I will be doing all my experiments in space. Space is not an exception to any rule it is the rule, it is the norm which defines everything else and matter is the exception.

 
In my first experiment I will use a bucket A, a compressed spring C and another identical bucket B in deep space. The compressed spring C is inbetween the buckets A and B which are full of sand and when I release the spring the buckets move in opposite directions. Bucket A on the left moves left away from bucket B and bucket B on the right moves right away from bucket A... equal and opposite. Here we can see in order for A to move left it must act against the inertia of B and likewise in order for B to move right it must act against the inertia of A... equal and opposite. The momentum (mass-velocity) of A and B are the same because the final velocity of A and B is the same and mass is assumed to be constant. We can see that in order for A to move left it must act on or push off of "something" which is B however B has nothing to act against which we would consider tangible, B is not like a wall or a building. The same thought applies to B and in order for it to move right it must act on or push off of "something" which is A.
 

Do you see the problem?, in order for A to move left it must push off of "something" which is B through spring C however B has nothing tangible to hold itself in that position like a wall or a planet because it is free floating in space. Thus we can see there is nothing tangible for B to act on to hold itself in place other than itself. I understand you whacky Earthlings might say "Inertia" is resisting the motion of B however I reject this foolish notion that one can just make up a term to explain something which does not actually explain anything. The fact remains that in order for A to move to the left it must push off of something tangible on some level because universal law dictates that something cannot act on nothing. B cannot act on itself nor can it act on supposedly empty space and it cannot act on nothing so you are only left with one viable solution.

In order for A to move to the left it must push off of B and there is absolutely nothing to hold B in position other than some letters of the alphabet which form the word inertia. Ultimately that is the true extent of your understanding concerning my experiment.... you believe B is held in place in space by some letters of the alphabet.... You are amazing beings.
 
AC
 
 
 
 

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2015, 05:49:24 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2015, 11:15:37 PM »
You have spun yourself in quite the circle.  Maybe you should start a step or two earlier:  What do you use to compress the spring in the first place?

Offline Farmhand

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2015, 12:21:27 AM »
I am of the opinion that many of the so called UFO sightings are effects of perspective - light and regular flying objects.

Take the clip below for example, people are claiming "orbs" are flying around in the sky, they seem to be doing impossible manoeuvres . But what it looks like to me when I analyzed the clip is pigeons "birds", with a kind of light halo. The funny thing is that when one of the objects is caught at a closer distance to the camera it looks like a brown and white pigeon with a halo but if when I altered the image to black and white it looks like the outline of a classic saucer.

I surmised that the magnetic properties of the pigeons heads may cause the halo like thing to appear around the head, but I have no real theory as to how, just a thought. Can anyone pick what kind of bird that is if it is not a pigeon.

Someone tell me that pigeon doesn't look very cool with it's halo.  :)

Canada orb clip with haloed pigeon looking things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9sQKrraXeY

To me it appears to be definitely a bird of some kind, and the movements would be effects of perspective, when in 3D the movements would be fairly normal, but in 2D they look "odd". Why do the birds all have halo's, if they are birds that is.

I've seen silver saucer looking things in the daytime on two occasions but they were never doing anything physics defying just cruising along less than chopper speed above the low clouds, I was looking slightly down on them as I am on a mountain, they did not look like choppers though, Distance would have been about 5 to 10 k's no more. They were big. Not bird sized. Could have been choppers with the rotor and the tail obscured by visual effects of distance and sun and what I could see would then look like a saucer, best I can come up with .
 

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2015, 12:21:27 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2015, 12:35:31 AM »
But AC nothing in space is at rest and so if the arrangement you mentioned with the two buckets of sand and a spring happened to be moving at great speed ie. draw a center line through the two buckets and spring along the center axis of the spring (I'll specify a coil spring compressed with the bucket openings facing in opposite directions with the spring between), now if the arrangement is moving through space with one bucket leading and one following (spring between compressed) then what would happen is one would slow down and one would speed up but the direction of both would remain the same.

Nothing is at rest in the Universe.

..

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2015, 02:38:10 AM »
But AC nothing in space is at rest and so if the arrangement you mentioned with the two buckets of sand and a spring happened to be moving at great speed ie. draw a center line through the two buckets and spring along the center axis of the spring (I'll specify a coil spring compressed with the bucket openings facing in opposite directions with the spring between), now if the arrangement is moving through space with one bucket leading and one following (spring between compressed) then what would happen is one would slow down and one would speed up but the direction of both would remain the same.

Nothing is at rest in the Universe.

..

Thanks Farmhand, I was going to post something similar.  Nothing "floats" in space at rest.  Even if something started out at rest instantaneously, it would quickly begin to be pulled toward the strongest gravitational field that acted upon it.  People think that if you shot a baseball up into space to an altitude of 600 miles, it would be in orbit...but, that baseball would simply fall back to the earth.  VonBraun launched rockets to this altitude and they did exactly that.  Orbit is a velocity...17,600 mph give or take not an altitude.  So, even our baseball would never be at "rest".  It would go up, and then come down.

Bill

Offline Farmhand

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2015, 03:00:37 AM »
I do like the thought experiment though Bill, we can imagine the experiment is inside a vacuous space, the result is just as AC says.

However if we want to imagine how the EM drive might be able to work we could imagine a craft being delivered into space by the conventional methods and the EM drive could then be employed. But we would need to take into consideration all relevant factors. I can only guess that if we were to place any craft in a vacuum with no way for the craft to exert any forces on anything else then it wouldn't move.

..


Offline allcanadian

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Re: 'Impossible' rocket drive works and could get to Moon in four hours
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2015, 04:34:56 AM »
Hey farmhand
Quote
I do like the thought experiment though Bill, we can imagine the experiment is inside a vacuous space, the result is just as AC says. [/size]However if we want to imagine how the EM drive [/size]might[/size] be able to work we could imagine a craft being delivered into space by the conventional methods and the EM drive could then be employed. But we would need to take into consideration all relevant factors. I can only guess that if we were to place [/size]any[/size] craft in a vacuum with no way for the craft to exert any forces on anything else then it wouldn't move.[/size]


You have to remained focused and not get distracted by non-issues and the concept of inertia as I said relies on the fact that something must fundamentally act on nothing.


Quote
The fact remains that in order for A to move to the left it must push off of something tangible on some level because universal law dictates that something cannot act on nothing. B cannot act on itself nor can it act on supposedly empty space and it cannot act on nothing so you are only left with one viable solution.




People are creating BS circumstances to justify the fact they do not or cannot answer the fundamental question which is ... inertia is based on the observation that something is somehow acting on nothing. Something cannot resist the motion of something else without a frame of reference which relates to a tangible force on some level and in the case of inertia there is none.@Bill
 
Quote
Nothing "floats" in space at rest.  Even if something started out at rest instantaneously, it would quickly begin to be pulled toward the strongest gravitational field that acted upon it.  People think that if you shot a baseball up into space to an altitude of 600 miles, it would be in orbit...but, that baseball would simply fall back to the earth.  VonBraun launched rockets to this altitude and they did exactly that.  Orbit is a velocity...17,600 mph give or take not an altitude.  So, even our baseball would never be at "rest".  It would go up, and then come down.



@Bill

So how do you think this relates to the fact Inertia implies something must act on nothing Bill?. Your post is a non-issue and it is completely irrelevant because if you were actually paying attention you would know I said "space" not referring to low orbit which is a BS argument at best. So let's suppose it is in deep space billions of miles from nowhere what then Bill?. Just answer the question.... do you believe something can act on nothing or not?. That is the question not BS circumstances which have no real relation to the real question. A simple yes or no would be more than sufficient Bill.




AC

 

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