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Mechanical free energy devices => Reactive Power usage => Topic started by: gotoluc on July 20, 2015, 04:49:03 AM

Title: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 20, 2015, 04:49:03 AM
Hi everyone,

I have started this new topic in effort to help user: TinMan interesting research work to continue.

The reason for starting a new topic is, I feel I can help simplify the flow of the needed information with my moderator privileges.

Also, this first page will be an archive page where I will post all of TinMan's video demos, suggested and updated circuits offered for replication.
So keep looking at this first page for updates as the research continues instead of asking where videos and circuit are located.

This topic will be moderated by myself and I reserve the right to edit or delete any post that are off topic or do not contribute to TinMan's research.
Here are the rules TinMan has suggested: Moderation should only take place when insults toward another fellow member start taking place but remembering that disagreements are not insult's. Also, moderation toward personal attacks should be heavy, as there is no need for that.

So keep it clean, on topic and supportive and we can all work as a group to expedite the research.

Please note, at times this topic can be locked for cleaning or at TinMan's request.

Thank you for your interest, understanding and wishing all the best in your experiments and sharing.

Luc


Here is a video demo I made (gotoluc) back in 2010 to which TinMan found to have some useful information related to the research:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM)

The below videos are an archive of TinMan's (most recent first) Rotary Transformer (RT)
Please Note: At this time TinMan cannot fully disclose RT v.3  So please do not ask as your post will be ignored.
If you chose to test or work on the RT version you do so on your own with only the information provided in the videos below. 
At this time TinMan is working on a solid state version (below the videos) which is the main focus of this topic.

New part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWxYQHcZO00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWxYQHcZO00)

New part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvVcUzjCqQU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvVcUzjCqQU)

v.3 test 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpcqMPvcoW0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpcqMPvcoW0)

v.3 test 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSsmScZqMts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSsmScZqMts)

v.3 test 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmJr4_gHygo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmJr4_gHygo)

v.2 test 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIwa_kEhOY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wIwa_kEhOY)

v.2 test 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ1xoq7g8Zk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ1xoq7g8Zk)

The below are TinMan's (most recent first) suggested (solid state) circuits available for replication which is the main focus of this topic.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 05:54:54 AM
Here's what I'm working on.


I've got a universal motor out of a Breville blender. Can't get it to spin with the stator coils disconnected so I'll be switching to a vacuum cleaner motor next.

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 21, 2015, 06:06:46 AM
Thanks for your post Jim ;)

Can you tell if you blender motor brushes are positioned 90 degreese to the stator coils or are they in a different position?

Have you filed the tip of the brushes so the contact point is a little less than one commutator segments width?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 21, 2015, 06:52:31 AM
I've taken apart an old Dyson vacuum cleaner and it appears to be  the exact same motor Tinman has, and the brushes are at right angles. I've started to file them down. Fine Sandpaper works the best.
You can get a second hand universal motor at most places. The way you test a mains universal motor is to run it off  a car battery. It should work just fine. The "rotor" windings are in series. NOT parallel.
I paid £10 for my dyson vacuum at a car boot sale in the UK.
I have a copy of a Houdini video file on the Lockridge device. If anyone has a private file share I can let you have a copy. But remember copyright law. No public viewing please.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: hoptoad on July 21, 2015, 06:55:14 AM
Here's what I'm working on.
I've got a universal motor out of a Breville blender. Can't get it to spin with the stator coils disconnected so I'll be switching to a vacuum cleaner motor next.
If you are driving this with 12 volts then you'll need a motor rated around 500w or more, (if you are using off the shelf mains powered universal motors) simply because in lower power motors the resistance of the rotor coils allows too little current to pass and the rotors will barely turn, if at all, in attraction mode alone.
Good alternatives to a vacuum cleaner motor are a hand held disk grinder motor, or a high powered hand drill. The higher the nominated power rating of the device, the more likely it will be appropriate to use on 12V experiments, as it will use lower resistance rotor windings, allowing for enough current from a 12 volt source to create a strong enough rotor field to overcome friction and rotor inertia.
The other option is to work at a higher voltage like 18V or 24V if you don't have a more suitable motor for 12v.
Cheers
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 06:59:15 AM
Thanks for your post Jim ;)

Can you tell if you blender motor brushes are positioned 90 degreese to the stator coils or are they in a different position?

Have you filed the tip of the brushes so the contact point is a little less than one commutator segments width?

Thanks for sharing

Luc


Hi Luc 90 deg.
I'll be filing the brushes down before I move to a bigger motor.

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 21, 2015, 07:16:31 AM
Jim
If it is not to late-dont file down the brushes.

I am at work ATM on lunch break, but when I get home, I will throw together a quick test to see if you have the correct motor setup-its an easy test. I will post a video of the test, and leave it unlisted. At this point in time I am unsure as to how much I can get away with.

From here on, I will be working on the solid state version, but this time I will be posting my build step by step-all will be unlisted videos this time, but the link will be here when there up.
Please copy each video as we go.
My S/S version is based around Luc's setup.

Brad
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Groundloop on July 21, 2015, 07:27:37 AM
Luc,

Thank you for this moderated thread. As you know, I always seek to find a
solid state version when there is a motor version that shows unusal measurements.
I have worked a long time with magnetic amplifiers. One version I did make a long
time ago was very promesing regarding input/output. 29 Watt in and 25 Watt out.
That is not bad by itself knowing that most pulse oscillators are at approx. 60%
in converting input to output. Now, by adding a shorting coil and transistor to
my Figure-8 circuit, then I clearly saw that this shorting added more output. So I
think it is the right way to go. I will try to build a 100 Watt version later on this year
and will report any findings here. I have attached my 2 Watt version here also since
the post I did make in the other thread got buried by all the spam posts.

(Sorry for any bad spelling, the spell checker will not work on my laptop.)

GL.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 21, 2015, 08:20:26 AM
hi all, I have posted this pic before but I do not think any body got the gist of it . what it
demonstrate is that most of the inventions be it the meg for example reason that it does not work is that
the magnetic flux in the core is SHUNTED.. that is not cutting through the copper windings of the coil.
if in this pic one change the polarity of the poles that is north south this shaking figamagig will barely
work..the reason the flux is SHUNTED through the bolt.. but if north north the magnetic flux field over saturate the
bolt and radiate out and there for the field strength is doubled. and bob is my uncle the led lights up brightly.
 the above first diagram is a patented figamagig us7453341b1 nov 18 2008. yes it works very well as a motor.
.please do not get me wrong the short circuit is not implied in this patent but same concept..but again the flux is shunted.. great
for a motor..i will send some of more of improve version of my figamagig. and just for a challenge please
some body let me know how I can get more energy out of my fingamagig.. remember 100 Seychelles rupees..
if nobody can I will keep my 100 rupees..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 09:16:19 AM
If you are driving this with 12 volts then you'll need a motor rated around 500w or more, (if you are using off the shelf mains powered universal motors) simply because in lower power motors the resistance of the rotor coils allows too little current to pass and the rotors will barely turn, if at all, in attraction mode alone.
Good alternatives to a vacuum cleaner motor are a hand held disk grinder motor, or a high powered hand drill. The higher the nominated power rating of the device, the more likely it will be appropriate to use on 12V experiments, as it will use lower resistance rotor windings, allowing for enough current from a 12 volt source to create a strong enough rotor field to overcome friction and rotor inertia.
The other option is to work at a higher voltage like 18V or 24V if you don't have a more suitable motor for 12v.
Cheers


Thanks Bellarine boy. I could get it running ok with the stator coils connected just not very fast.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 09:19:21 AM
Jim
If is not to late-dont file down the brushes down.

I am at work ATM on lunch break, but when I get home, I will throw together a quick test to see if you have the correct motor setup-its an easy test. I will post a video of the test, and leave it unlisted. At this point in time I am unsure as to how much I can get away with.

From here on, I will be working on the solid state version, but this time I will be posting my build step by step-all will be unlisted videos this time, but the link will be here when there up.
Please copy each video as we go.
My S/S version is based around Luc's setup.

Brad
LOL I was just about to head out to the shed with some sandpaper!
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 09:24:42 AM
hi all, I have posted this pic before but I do not think any body got the gist of it . what it
demonstrate is that most of the inventions be it the meg for example reason that it does not work is that
the magnetic flux in the core is SHUNTED.. that is not cutting through the copper windings of the coil.
if in this pic one change the polarity of the poles that is north south this shaking figamagig will barely
work..the reason the flux is SHUNTED through the bolt.. but if north north the magnetic flux field over saturate the
bolt and radiate out and there for the field strength is doubled. and bob is my uncle the led lights up brightly.
 the above first diagram is a patented figamagig us7453341b1 nov 18 2008. yes it works very well as a motor.
.please do not get me wrong the short circuit is not implied in this patent but same concept..but again the flux is shunted.. great
for a motor..i will send some of more of improve version of my figamagig. and just for a challenge please
some body let me know how I can get more energy out of my fingamagig.. remember 100 Seychelles rupees..
if nobody can I will keep my 100 rupees..
I want the rupees. Excuse me for being a little thick but what is lighting the LED? I can't see a power source in your diagram. Are you saying it is just the flux?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 21, 2015, 09:27:43 AM
jimbo jimbo it is a shaking figamajig. you move the bolt to and fro through the coils..
proof of concept jimbo..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 21, 2015, 09:30:57 AM
and jimbo just put a fast diode in series with your stator motor experiment ..and bob will be your uncle..
and if it does not work reverse the diode.. and give the motor a little finger twist..jimbo..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 09:32:59 AM
jimbo jimbo it is a shaking figamajig. you move the bolt to and fro through the coils..
proof of concept jimbo..
aaaah there goes my rupees
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 21, 2015, 09:39:50 AM
and jimbo like tinman said you do not have to stuff around with the brushes..
it is so hard here in Seychelles to post video.. cost a fortune..anyway when you get your motor
spinning just reverse the diode one way clockwise other anticlockwise..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 21, 2015, 09:44:00 AM
you get the rupees jimbo only only when anyone show me how to get more electricity of of my figamagig..
I have already figure it out.. it will surprise most savy gurus..

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 09:47:06 AM
you get the rupees jimbo only only when anyone show me how to get more electricity of of my figamagig..
I have already figure it out.. it will surprise most savy gurus..
shake faster?  :P
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 21, 2015, 09:55:34 AM
yeah that is one way but you are using more energy
just to do a  physically addition to this figamagig..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 21, 2015, 11:50:06 AM
so jimbo how do I reduce the vide file size so that I download it to utube.. ie what soft ware do I use..
thanks mate or even the gum eating creature can help me here..i know you are just lurking in the bush tk..

This is the one i use. It can shrink video files to any size you want,any format you want,and can join many different video's of all sorts of format's in one go to a single video file of any format you choose.

http://download.cnet.com/Free-AVI-MPEG-WMV-MP4-FLV-Video-Joiner/3000-13631_4-75290164.html
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 21, 2015, 12:10:40 PM
Im just about to hit the workshop for a couple of hours,but before i do,i would just like to put forward my thoughts to Luc.

In regards to moderation Luc.
It is my firm belief that all should be aloud to post there thought's toward our research and findings.
We are going to have those that will not be doing any building of there own,but i believe that there thoughts and suggestions in regards to carrying out tests could be very helpful-->in the way of-if we dont see the results that they think we should see,then we know we are going in the right direction. Who know's,maybe we will teach them a little something along the way-like the ability of the permanent magnet to do useful work-->which happens to be my first goal here on this thread.

Those i am talking about are people like MarkE,Poynt,PW,MH,TK<-- but i think TK would be one to also build. Moderation should only take place when insults toward another fellow member start taking place,but remembering that disagreements are not insult's. Also moderation toward personal attacks should be heavy,as there is no need for that.

So many threads just end up a big washout with non related palava-->so lets keep this one on track.

Whats your thoughts Luc?

Brad
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 21, 2015, 12:15:33 PM
Good morning all,

thanks for posting your comments and or work in progress.

Please be careful not to make too many small chat posts which will make the thread longer to read.

@ seychelles, we appreciate your sharing but I deleted your post on the video compression question as this can cause the topic to go in another direction. However, I see TinMan took the time to answer you.

@ TinMan, I will do as you have written above and remove some of the post conditions.

ADDED: I have modified the first page rules to your suggestions. Please revise it to see if it meets your desires. You only need to reply if you would like to add or change something. Thanks

Thanks again for your sharing

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: CANGAS on July 21, 2015, 12:55:33 PM
GOTOLUC; please pardon me for this one side-reply; I happen to notice that this is a Moderated Topic, hopefully without too much of the usual BS that most often bogs down and actually derails a useful discussion.

If and when I ever get inspired enough to fantasize a FREE ENERGY device (perhaps after getting sufficiently relaxed as a result of imbibing enough beer) and intend to disclose and discuss it here on this Site, and desire to avoid the BS by starting a Moderated Topic, HOW DO I DO THAT?

What is the first move for me to make, and then the second.....so that my Topic is protected by Moderation and can reasonably proceed in relative civil and peaceful fashion?


Thank you very much
CANGAS 185

ADDED BY GOTOLUC: Check your PM as discustion on this will be done out of topic.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 21, 2015, 01:26:54 PM
thanks tinman, well you guys are to slow so I will keep my 100 rupees ..
the answer is as shown in the pic..if any one does not understand let me know..
and some people might ask where are you going with this figamagig Seychelles.
well stay tune and you will learn..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 21, 2015, 01:30:49 PM
pic of figamagig
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 21, 2015, 01:53:13 PM
Dear All.

Short and sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd5EuPkdjQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRUpToByBug

Possibly pertinent ?  http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf

And finally, Brad, did you or did you not, employ the use of N52 strength PM's in your Rotary Transformer ?

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 03:04:10 PM
Dear All.

Short and sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd5EuPkdjQc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd5EuPkdjQc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRUpToByBug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRUpToByBug)

Possibly pertinent ?  http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf (http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf)

And finally, Brad, did you or did you not, employ the use of N52 strength PM's in your Rotary Transformer ?

Cheers Grum.
I used to go to that groups meeting in Melbourne. Unfortunately the acompaning video for that pdf now also seems to be a torrent . Thanks grum interesting vids. Was it simply shaving of the brushes that reduced the noise intake second video?
EDIT: Sorry just realised they a different devices. Ignore my comment
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 21, 2015, 03:08:49 PM
Here is the video to test the motor for the RT.
There was another part to the video-the first part showing the motor in pieces,but the two together was just to long-so here is the second half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvVcUzjCqQU
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 21, 2015, 03:34:13 PM
Here is the video to test the motor for the RT.
There was another part to the video-the first part showing the motor in pieces,but the two together was just to long-so here is the second half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvVcUzjCqQU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvVcUzjCqQU)
Well f me.
Will you be uploading the first vid? Like to see the tear down. I'll be heading back to the shed. Looks like I won't be going fishing this weekend.


Thanks mate.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 21, 2015, 03:48:50 PM
Dear All.

Short and sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd5EuPkdjQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRUpToByBug

Possibly pertinent ?  http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf

And finally, Brad, did you or did you not, employ the use of N52 strength PM's in your Rotary Transformer ?

Cheers Grum.

Grum's second video shows him shorting the motor with a screw driver and recording "hi-voltage spikes" on his scope. This is a good example of the free energy effect of "Ionization". You can see the huge spark he's throwing with the screw driver head in the last part of the video.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 21, 2015, 06:01:19 PM
Will you be uploading the first vid? Like to see the tear down. I'll be heading back to the shed. Looks like I won't be going fishing this weekend.

Thanks mate.

Good day Jim

I have included the most recent series (v.2 and v.3) of TinMan's Rotary transformer video on the first page. Have a look. I think the one you would like to see (tear down) is the last one.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 21, 2015, 08:11:35 PM
Here is the video to test the motor for the RT.
There was another part to the video-the first part showing the motor in pieces,but the two together was just to long-so here is the second half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvVcUzjCqQU

Dear Brad.

In your video, link posted above, you mention two important things.

You say you have " tipped the brushes " . What do you mean exactly, by tipped ?

You also mention " brush timing. " Have you altered the brushgear position in relation to the Field coil ?

I have now got a pile of dead vacuum cleaners on the yard but can't for the life me see the effect you demonstrated in video 3 !!   ;)

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 22, 2015, 01:08:03 AM
Dear Brad.

In your video, link posted above, you mention two important things.

You say you have " tipped the brushes " . What do you mean exactly, by tipped ?

You also mention " brush timing. " Have you altered the brushgear position in relation to the Field coil ?

I have now got a pile of dead vacuum cleaners on the yard but can't for the life me see the effect you demonstrated in video 3 !!   ;)

Cheers Grum.

I will upload the first part of the last video i posted tonight when i get home from work.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 22, 2015, 01:33:56 AM
Dear All.

Short and sweet.

Possibly pertinent ?  http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf (http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf)

And finally, Brad, did you or did you not, employ the use of N52 strength PM's in your Rotary Transformer ?

Cheers Grum.


Jeepers:  Download the pdf and look at the final part!
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 22, 2015, 02:30:15 AM

Jeepers:  Download the pdf and look at the final part!

So, now do you believe the TinMan form Ozzieland will lead us to the Yellow brick road?... I know he has the Heart to do it!

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 22, 2015, 02:41:58 AM

Jeepers:  Download the pdf and look at the final part!
That link is a 302 to a 404 - aka borked.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 22, 2015, 02:48:54 AM
That link is a 302 to a 404 - aka borked.

It works for me mate!

I'll add the pdf at the bottom of the first page. You can download it there.

Luc

ADDED: Sorry mate, says the file is too large. max allowed is 5mb and the file is 5.47
              I'll see if I can find something else for you.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 22, 2015, 03:09:49 AM
http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf (http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf)[/font][/size]


This is a wonderful technical document, but just look at the screen shots towards the end of the pdf:
written in 2010



Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: alejandroguille on July 22, 2015, 05:38:38 AM
pic of figamagig

Hi, this is real? you got more pictures? Thank you.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MagnaProp on July 22, 2015, 09:26:51 AM
Here is the video to test the motor for the RT...
Looks good. Big fan of your work tinman. Is there a first part to this thread somewhere to help me get up to speed on the build?

Please wait and give TinMan the time he needs to provide more details.
We don't want another visit from the wicked witch do we.
The first page of this topic will be updated as soon as the new details are provided.
Please let me know if that has not been clearly written on the first page and if so, make your suggestion of how it should be written.

Regards

Luc
Sorry about that. I see the info now. I don't want a visit from the witch so I'll wait  8)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 22, 2015, 10:19:20 AM
Looks good. Big fan of your work tinman. Is there a first part to this thread somewhere?

Please wait and give TinMan the time he needs to provide more details.
We don't want another visit from the wicked witch do we.
The first page of this topic will be updated as soon as the new details are provided.
Please let me know if that has not been clearly written on the first page and if so, make your suggestion of how it should be written.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 22, 2015, 12:23:52 PM
oops our Dyson broke. Happy to say that this universal motor spins up nicely without the stator coils connected. Like Grums it tends to wander all over the place with rpms. I performed the charging a load test with the diodes as shown in Brad's last vid. It was difficult to know whether the charging was affecting the rpms or if it was just the idiosyncrasies of the motor itself.  Just for giggles I put the other stator coil across a reed and stuck a small mag on the spindle. It definitely sped up then.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 22, 2015, 12:29:59 PM
Before we go any further,i need to once again make it clear that i will not,and cannot disclose the full details of the RT--> i think i made this point very clear in the partnered coil thread.

What i am going to do is try(!!try!!)and show that PM's(permanent magnets) can do useful work,and how they do it. From there on,how you apply that knowledge is up to each person here.
I will be doing this in way of the solid state transformer version as Luc has posted diagrams of in the first page of this thread.
I am hoping that Luc will join me on this build,and the testing to go with it,as it is based around one of his test bed's he built some time ago,showing how little electrical power is required to divert the flux path of PM's. Anyone else that would like to go down the S/S path are also welcome to join in on the build. Using the principle the RT is based around,i believe we can make the S/S version work.
This time i(and i hope others)will be posting videos and details on each step of the build,so as in the event that success is had,then it will be all to late for anyone to do anything about it.

@ Jim
The first part of the last video will be up in about 30 minutes.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 22, 2015, 12:35:20 PM
The first half of the last video.
Sorry about the dirty hands and cracked skin lol-joys of being a mechanic,and playing in old diesel engine oil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWxYQHcZO00
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 22, 2015, 01:07:17 PM
The first half of the last video.
Sorry about the dirty hands and cracked skin lol-joys of being a mechanic,and playing in old diesel engine oil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWxYQHcZO00

Dear Brad.

Many thanks for the video. It has cleared up the term " tipping. " So, by tipping you are actually altering the angle of the brush gear in relation to the commutator segments. And, correct me if I'm wrong, bringing in an extra armature coil?

I would like to pursue the Rotary transformer myself as I have always had a fascination with things that rotate !!  ;)

Cheers Grum.

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: penno64 on July 22, 2015, 01:38:37 PM
Hi Grum,

If you stop the video at exactly 1:02 you will see the tipping of the brush. About half of the original width.

The purpose or tipping ensures only connection to one commutator segment at a time. Much like your shaved
brush in your video.

Tilting is where Brad means adjusting the brush position.

Regards, Penno
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 22, 2015, 01:40:03 PM
Before we go any further,i need to once again make it clear that i will not,and cannot disclose the full details of the RT--> i think i made this point very clear in the partnered coil thread.

What i am going to do is try(!!try!!)and show that PM's(permanent magnets) can do useful work,and how they do it. From there on,how you apply that knowledge is up to each person here.
I will be doing this in way of the solid state transformer version as Luc has posted diagrams of in the first page of this thread.
I am hoping that Luc will join me on this build,and the testing to go with it,as it is based around one of his test bed's he built some time ago,showing how little electrical power is required to divert the flux path of PM's. Anyone else that would like to go down the S/S path are also welcome to join in on the build. Using the principle the RT is based around,i believe we can make the S/S version work.
This time i(and i hope others)will be posting videos and details on each step of the build,so as in the event that success is had,then it will be all to late for anyone to do anything about it.

@ Jim
The first part of the last video will be up in about 30 minutes.

Good day Brad and everyone,

I continue to update the first page of this topic. Now above your RT videos it says:

The below videos are an archive of TinMan's (most recent first) Rotary Transformer (RT)
Please Note: At this time TinMan cannot fully disclose RT v.3  So please do not ask as your post will be ignored.
If you chose to test or work on the RT version you do so on your own with only the information provided in the videos below. 
At this time TinMan is working on a solid state version (below the videos) which is the main focus of this topic.


@ Brad,
I will definitely be replicating your solid state circuit. It may take me a little more time then usual because of my living conditions at this time.
Like Grum I also like things that rotate so I will also be experimenting on a rotary version at the same time.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 22, 2015, 02:02:55 PM
Thanks Penno,

here is few other shots as well
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 22, 2015, 02:19:56 PM
Thanks brad really cleared a few things up. I'll be pursuing both projects as well. Mght have to win a couple of poker nights to pick up the rigol :) grum and I are working on the same motor which doesn't lend itself to that sort of brush adjustment. Can you confirm what Penna has said? At this stage I'm thinking I'll have to look for a different Motor... And explain the deconstructed Dyson to my wife :)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 22, 2015, 02:23:46 PM
oops our Dyson broke. Happy to say that this universal motor spins up nicely without the stator coils connected. Like Grums it tends to wander all over the place with rpms. I performed the charging a load test with the diodes as shown in Brad's last vid. It was difficult to know whether the charging was affecting the rpms or if it was just the idiosyncrasies of the motor itself.  Just for giggles I put the other stator coil across a reed and stuck a small mag on the spindle. It definitely sped up then.

@Jimboot,

It seems that attaching a magnet to the end of the rotor axle, in the stator attraction polarity, would add the same kind of GAP advantage Art Porter gets. The PM power equation was figured out to equal the amount of suppression strength needed to neutralize the PM field with a coil, by Dr. Dragone. The PM adds that exact amount of electrical power to the motor.

Gotoluc shows in his "Flynn Motor 2" video how voltage regulates the flux of the magnet core. Timan apparently struck the right balance this way to aid the RT's efficiency.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 22, 2015, 02:57:00 PM
Here's a cool "Magnetic Amplification" video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxrJoGZy1to
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 22, 2015, 03:03:33 PM
Thanks brad really cleared a few things up. I'll be pursuing both projects as well. Mght have to win a couple of poker nights to pick up the rigol :) grum and I are working on the same motor which doesn't lend itself to that sort of brush adjustment. Can you confirm what Penna has said? At this stage I'm thinking I'll have to look for a different Motor... And explain the deconstructed Dyson to my wife :)
The tipping of the brushes is to adjust the timing,and also to have two rotor segments in contact at once. This eliminates most of the arcing of the brushes,and reduces losses by way of heat. It also allows for the reversing of the magnetic field created by the stator coils to that of the rotors field.

See this video(if you havnt yet) of my early experiments,and you can see how much more efficient the standard RT is than an !off the shelf! motor that was designed to drive the fan used in the test.
The standard motor on the house fan is suppose to be 86% efficient minimum,but for arguments sake,lets say it is only 80% efficient. The RT is 40%+ more efficient at running the fan blade than the motor that was designed to do the job. Only 1 stator coil is being used on the RT at the time this video was made,as it was early days-as you will be able to tell with some of the descriptions i give lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpJ97M58G4
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 22, 2015, 03:06:36 PM
Here's a cool "Magnetic Amplification" video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxrJoGZy1to
How is this magnetic amplification?
In fact,how is this anything at all. I see a pulse motor with biased coil's-i see nothing else.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: poynt99 on July 22, 2015, 03:27:45 PM
The tipping of the brushes is to adjust the timing,and also to have two rotor segments in contact at once
As opposed to 4 rotor segments?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 22, 2015, 03:34:42 PM
How is this magnetic amplification?
In fact,how is this anything at all. I see a pulse motor with biased coil's-i see nothing else.

A switched polarity could deliver twice the repulsion followed by a neutralization pulse. The same pole switch circuit could power a coil charged rotor with 2500gm to 1/2 watt ratio, with very powerful magnet stators.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 22, 2015, 03:46:26 PM
The tipping of the brushes is to adjust the timing,and also to have two rotor segments in contact at once. This eliminates most of the arcing of the brushes,and reduces losses by way of heat. It also allows for the reversing of the magnetic field created by the stator coils to that of the rotors field.

See this video(if you havnt yet) of my early experiments,and you can see how much more efficient the standard RT is than an !off the shelf! motor that was designed to drive the fan used in the test.
The standard motor on the house fan is suppose to be 86% efficient minimum,but for arguments sake,lets say it is only 80% efficient. The RT is 40%+ more efficient at running the fan blade than the motor that was designed to do the job. Only 1 stator coil is being used on the RT at the time this video was made,as it was early days-as you will be able to tell with some of the descriptions i give lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpJ97M58G4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpJ97M58G4)


Well that was impressive. I hadn't seen that before. Thanks. What is the better motor to work with? The washing machine or fan.? Which was the easiest to tune for optimum performance?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 22, 2015, 03:49:59 PM
As opposed to 4 rotor segments?
The later vids it was across 1.5 ? I think I'll have to go back and check. It was the vid uploaded last night.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 22, 2015, 04:00:51 PM
kEhYo neutralizes then shuts the coil off and allows the backing magnets to repel the rotor. He could power the coil from both directions with a DPDT current reversing reed switch. The same motor would then deliver twice the Torque. In attraction, the backing magnets would have twice the force with coil on in the same direction, then reversed to neutralize at TDC. kEhYo's circuit only delivers 1/2 the motor's potential power.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 22, 2015, 04:36:41 PM

Well that was impressive. I hadn't seen that before. Thanks. What is the better motor to work with? The washing machine or fan.? Which was the easiest to tune for optimum performance?

the fan motor is just a standard induction AC motor-no mods can be made. It was used as a benchmark for efficiency-so as i knew i was going in the right direction with the RT.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 22, 2015, 04:39:17 PM
As opposed to 4 rotor segments?
Sorry i didnt make that very clear-my mistake.
2 rotor segments at each brush-50% of the time there is 3 segments per brush in contact with each brush-so 4 segments at 100% and 6@ 50% time on all up.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: kEhYo77 on July 22, 2015, 04:46:35 PM
Hi synchro1.
Yes, my 'GAP Power' motor is half-baked :)  The driving coils are bifilar so I could do push-pull.

But recently I've been focused on solid-state MEG/figuera/partnered output coils thingy, will see how that goes soon.
2 blue wire coils N and S with magnets N/N S/S and 2 identical partnered output coils (mirror image).
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: poynt99 on July 22, 2015, 04:59:21 PM
Sorry i didnt make that very clear-my mistake.
2 rotor segments at each brush-50% of the time there is 3 segments per brush in contact with each brush-so 4 segments at 100% and 6@ 50% time on all up.
I thought you were filing the brushes to a point so that only one rotor segment one each side would be connected at a time.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: allcanadian on July 22, 2015, 06:00:06 PM
@Poynt99
Quote
As opposed to 4 rotor segments?


Yes, when any two commutator segments are in contact with one brush then one rotor coil is effectively shorted through the brush to prevent arcing. If the brush is tipped or narrowed then the time at this point is drastically reduced hence the transient effects noted in the scope shots.


However it gets even more interesting when the brush timing is altered and the stator coils disconnected. Realistically the universal motor becomes a switched reluctance motor whereby the rotor field it attracted to the stator core. To be more precise the rotor field is attracted to the area of the stator core with the most ferromagnetic material hence the term reluctance.


It should also be noted that since the stator coils are no longer in series with the rotor coils they are no longer bound to the same applied current. If the rotor current changes in some way then it's magnetic field changes as well and this field change translates to the stator coils not unlike a transformer. Now it gets a little tricky because in practice we have a transformer with one coil moving relative to the other thus we must consider the field change in the rotor as well as the change due to the fact the rotor field is moving.


I think I know what tinman is doing and it relates to the Alexander Dyna-motor found here---http://www.rexresearch.com/alxandr/alexandr.htm as well as the Robert Adams motor/generator.


On a note of interest Lenz law is completely dependent on one magnetic field opposing the field change of another magnetic field which we call "induction" which is actually self-induction however Lenz Law has no application if one magnetic field ceases to exist because this is not "induction" by definition it is something else.


AC







Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 22, 2015, 06:22:10 PM
Dear All.

Short and sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd5EuPkdjQc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRUpToByBug

Possibly pertinent ?  http://www.climtechsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Lindemann/ElectricMotorSecrets2-Lindemann.pdf

And finally, Brad, did you or did you not, employ the use of N52 strength PM's in your Rotary Transformer ?

Cheers Grum.

Grumage,

In your second video, what exactly are you shorting the brush too?  Were you shorting the brush holder brass to the motor frame or were you actually touching the brush carbon itself?

I ask because normally the motor frame is not electrically connected to the stator or rotor.  If you were shorting the brush holder metal parts to the frame, then there would only be capacitive coupling of the brush voltage to the stator or rotor windings (assuming you have no rotor or stator winding connections to the motor frame, intentional or otherwise).  If you were touching the carbon itself, is it possible you were more so changing the manner in which the brush was contacting the rotor (i.e., tipping the brush slightly, changing tension, etc)?  Either way the results are interesting.

As for the N52 question you posed, have you received an answer?  Did you use an N52 in any of your replication attempts and if so, how did you utilize them?

PW 
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 22, 2015, 08:02:56 PM
Grumage,

In your second video, what exactly are you shorting the brush too?  Were you shorting the brush holder brass to the motor frame or were you actually touching the brush carbon itself?

I ask because normally the motor frame is not electrically connected to the stator or rotor.  If you were shorting the brush holder metal parts to the frame, then there would only be capacitive coupling of the brush voltage to the stator or rotor windings (assuming you have no rotor or stator winding connections to the motor frame, intentional or otherwise).  If you were touching the carbon itself, is it possible you were more so changing the manner in which the brush was contacting the rotor (i.e., tipping the brush slightly, changing tension, etc)?  Either way the results are interesting.

As for the N52 question you posed, have you received an answer?  Did you use an N52 in any of your replication attempts and if so, how did you utilize them?

PW

Dear picowatt.

I was in fact using a "Pozidrive" "cross head" type screwdriver gently touching the leading ( motor rotation ) Commutator segment to the brush holder. In fact you can retard the speed by placing the screwdriver on the lagging side. This was done with the shaved brushes and later with the standard brushes. In fact I actually state verbally what I'm doing at 3.38 minutes into the video.

Now as to the use of permanent magnets? The " jury is still out " !! Brad seems to be ignoring MY questions, perhaps you should ask him ? However if the drawings posted on page one of this thread are anything to go by, my gut feeling is that there ARE PM's involved, somewhere.  ;)

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 22, 2015, 08:14:09 PM
Dear picowatt.

I was in fact using a "Pozidrive" "cross head" type screwdriver gently touching the leading ( motor rotation ) Commutator segment to the brush holder. In fact you can retard the speed by placing the screwdriver on the lagging side. This was done with the shaved brushes and later with the standard brushes. In fact I actually state verbally what I'm doing at 3.38 minutes into the video.

Now as to the use of permanent magnets? The " jury is still out " !! Brad seems to be ignoring MY questions, perhaps you should ask him ? However if the drawings posted on page one of this thread are anything to go by, my gut feeling is that there ARE PM's involved, somewhere.  ;)

Cheers Grum.

Grum,

So, in effect you were increasing the width of the brush contact with the armature somewhat when you were shorting with the screwdriver.  Correct?

As for the N52, have you attempted using any PM's in your RT experiments?

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 22, 2015, 08:27:51 PM
Grum,

So, in effect you were increasing the width of the brush contact with the armature somewhat when you were shorting with the screwdriver.  Correct?

As for the N52, have you attempted using any PM's in your RT experiments?

PW

Dear picowatt.

Correct.

In an early experiment I placed a stack of 3  15 x 6 mm dia Neo's in a hole drilled into one of the motors pole pieces, see attached photo. Unfortunately this motor was not ideal in it's topography as the brushgear was placed around 70 deg by design. As people may or may not be aware, there are actually two methods of Armature winding. Wave and Lap wound.

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 22, 2015, 08:42:47 PM
Dear picowatt.

Correct.

In an early experiment I placed a stack of 3  15 x 6 mm dia Neo's in a hole drilled into one of the motors pole pieces, see attached photo. Unfortunately this motor was not ideal in it's topography as the brushgear was placed around 70 deg by design. As people may or may not be aware, there are actually two methods of Armature winding. Wave and Lap wound.

Cheers Grum.

Grum,

That's a clean hole you cut in those laminations.  What did you use?

Your attempt to use some added magnets was an interesting and inspired idea.  I wonder if cutting off and trimming the pole piece and placing the magnet(s) between the modified pole piece and the outer frame would have been more effective.

Placing the magnets in the bored out hole as you have apparently done would tend to create only a local magnetic loop, that is, the motor frame surrounding the bored out hole would tend to act more so as a keeper between the north and south poles of the installed magnets.

Placing the magnet between the pole piece and frame would allow the installed PM's field to travel thru the motor frame and armature (effectively in series with the armature).  As well, the coil surrounding the modified pole piece/PM assembly could be used to modulate the field produced by the PM.

Very interesting...

Thanks Grum,

PW 

 
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 22, 2015, 08:56:15 PM
Grum,

That's a clean hole you cut in those laminations.  What did you use?

Your attempt to use some added magnets was an interesting and inspired idea.  I wonder if cutting off and trimming the pole piece and placing the magnet(s) between the modified pole piece and the outer frame would have been more effective.

Placing the magnets in the bored out hole as you have apparently done would tend to create only a local magnetic loop, that is, the motor frame surrounding the bored out hole would tend to act more so as a keeper between the north and south poles of the installed magnets.

Placing the magnet between the pole piece and frame would allow the installed PM's field to travel thru the motor frame and armature (effectively in series with the armature).

Very interesting...

Thanks Grum,

PW

Dear picowatt.

The hole ? Ah, trade secret !!   ;)

Inspired ? Yes, but not mine, the inspiration is Brads.

I'm also impressed by your use of the correct terminology for these machines. I had two years of day release learning about DC machines and strangely, there is, it appears MORE to them than meets the eye !!

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 22, 2015, 09:14:19 PM
Grum: Of course PM's are involved.
That's the whole point of the thread.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 22, 2015, 09:18:31 PM
Dear picowatt.

The hole ? Ah, trade secret !!   ;)

Trade secret?  goodness...

I guess I'd start with additional clamping to prevent the laminations from spreading, drill a hole using twist drills, starting small and increasing the hole size in steps.  Given the correct size drill, one could just use that method, although around here, I'd be tempted to switch to a boring head in my mill to get the exact size I wanted.

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 22, 2015, 09:28:45 PM
Trade secret?  goodness...

I guess I'd start with additional clamping to prevent the laminations from spreading, drill a hole using twist drills, starting small and increasing the hole size in steps.  Given the correct size drill, one could just use that method, although around here, I'd be tempted to switch to a boring head in my mill to get the exact size I wanted.

PW

Or just one of these in your Milling machine !!   ;)   With adequate clamping of course !!
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 22, 2015, 09:31:16 PM
I'm also impressed by your use of the correct terminology for these machines.

Cheers Grum.

Actually, I might have been a bit more clear by using "stator laminations" instead of "frame', but I hope I was able to get my point across.

I am definitely no expert regarding electric motors!

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 22, 2015, 09:33:45 PM
Or just one of these in your Milling machine !!   ;)   With adequate clamping of course !!

That is an interesting mill bit.  I have never seen one threaded like that.

There is always so much to learn...

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 22, 2015, 10:47:21 PM
Hi synchro1.
Yes, my 'GAP Power' motor is half-baked :)  The driving coils are bifilar so I could do push-pull.

But recently I've been focused on solid-state MEG/figuera/partnered output coils thingy, will see how that goes soon.
2 blue wire coils N and S with magnets N/N S/S and 2 identical partnered output coils (mirror image).

Here's what Art Porter had to say:

"To date, 08-30-2012, this is the best replication of GAP POWER that I've seen. Peter K. of Poland did this Masterful Job. No doubt very skillful in many fields. His expertise is just what this technology needs. His rotary design, in all probability, will be the best  and most efficient way to manufacture. The video is short but very informative. I'm going to be monitoring his future work.

It doesn't make any difference how big or how small the device is. All it has to do is prove over unity. I believe this device is already there.

Thanks Peter for your hard work and great accomplishment".

Art
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 23, 2015, 12:05:53 AM
Actually, I might have been a bit more clear by using "stator laminations" instead of "frame', but I hope I was able to get my point across.

I am definitely no expert regarding electric motors!

PW

Dear picowatt.

Aw, now you've  gone and ruined it!! The correct term is " Frame "!!

The pole pieces were attached separately in the good old days.

I'm surprised you had not seen a screw shank milling cutter before, you do need a special chuck to use them, but once secure they don't budge so you can accurately bore a hole to size and depth.

Most of my working career was spent in both Electrical and Mechanical engineering, big boys toys, sort of thing.  ;)

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 23, 2015, 12:13:21 AM
Dear picowatt.

Aw, now you've  gone and ruined it!! The correct term is " Frame "!!

The pole pieces were attached separately in the good old days.

I'm surprised you had not seen a screw shank milling cutter before, you do need a special chuck to use them, but once secure they don't budge so you can accurately bore a hole to size and depth.

Most of my working career was spent in both Electrical and Mechanical engineering, big boys toys, sort of thing.  ;)

Cheers Grum.

As for frame versus laminations, clarity for the masses...

As for the milling bit, just because I own a few machine tools does not make me a machinist!

I get by...

PW

ADDED:  I did a search for screw shank end mills and did not return a lot of hits (none actually).  Are they very common where you are?  Do they go by another name?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 01:13:19 AM
I thought you were filing the brushes to a point so that only one rotor segment one each side would be connected at a time.
Not on the motor you see in the video,as it has a higher number of poles on the rotor.The motors with 1/2 the number of rotor poles need only have one pole per brush contact<-- for the bulk of the time.

9 out of 10 motors will need the brush timing changed,or it will not perform very well -if at all.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 01:15:17 AM
Dear picowatt.

I was in fact using a "Pozidrive" "cross head" type screwdriver gently touching the leading ( motor rotation ) Commutator segment to the brush holder. In fact you can retard the speed by placing the screwdriver on the lagging side. This was done with the shaved brushes and later with the standard brushes. In fact I actually state verbally what I'm doing at 3.38 minutes into the video.

Now as to the use of permanent magnets? The " jury is still out " !! Brad seems to be ignoring MY questions, perhaps you should ask him ? However if the drawings posted on page one of this thread are anything to go by, my gut feeling is that there ARE PM's involved, somewhere.  ;)

Cheers Grum.
I am answering as i can.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 01:16:38 AM
Grum,

That's a clean hole you cut in those laminations.  What did you use?

Your attempt to use some added magnets was an interesting and inspired idea.  I wonder if cutting off and trimming the pole piece and placing the magnet(s) between the modified pole piece and the outer frame would have been more effective.

Placing the magnets in the bored out hole as you have apparently done would tend to create only a local magnetic loop, that is, the motor frame surrounding the bored out hole would tend to act more so as a keeper between the north and south poles of the installed magnets.

Placing the magnet between the pole piece and frame would allow the installed PM's field to travel thru the motor frame and armature (effectively in series with the armature).  As well, the coil surrounding the modified pole piece/PM assembly could be used to modulate the field produced by the PM.

Very interesting...

Thanks Grum,

PW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 23, 2015, 01:23:13 AM
I am answering as i can.

Tinman

What, exactly, prevents you from answering?  Is it with regard to suppression of technology from the masses or more so to do with protection of IP?

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 01:30:16 AM
Tinman

What, exactly, prevents you from answering?  Is it with regard to suppression of technology from the masses or more so to do with protection of IP?

PW
Full disclosure was not(and now cant be)on the table-i have made this very clear many times now-even before-------------------------changed.

I will be presenting all my finding's and build on the S/S version here on this thread.
I dont ask that anyone spend time and money on either project-each makes there own decisions.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 23, 2015, 01:32:11 AM
Full disclosure was not(and now cant be)on the table-i have made this very clear many times now-even before-------------------------changed.

I will be presenting all my finding's and build on the S/S version here on this thread.
I dont ask that anyone spend time and money on either project-each makes there own decisions.
Fully understood and I have no issues with that.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 23, 2015, 02:02:55 AM
Full disclosure was not(and now cant be)on the table-i have made this very clear many times now-even before-------------------------changed.

I will be presenting all my finding's and build on the S/S version here on this thread.
I dont ask that anyone spend time and money on either project-each makes there own decisions.

Tinman,

I understand what you are saying here, and the similar statements made by you in the past.

However, this does not really answer my question.  I am curious to know whether your inability to answer or further discuss the RT is with regard to some form of suppression or more so to do with IP protection.

If it is not IP protection, surely you can state that...

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 23, 2015, 02:06:47 AM
Tinman,

Is further investigation of the measurements made of the RT also off the table?

Consider, if you will, my suggestion of continuing on with those measurements with the RT enclosed so as to be fully "black boxed" and out of view.

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: shylo on July 23, 2015, 02:28:32 AM
Were the field coils of the stator rewound on the vacumn motor?
The list on the first page shows 2 different types of motor.
Why are we drifting away from the original motor design?
Why solid state?
I would like to understand the motor before I try a transformer.
artv
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 23, 2015, 04:00:39 AM
Were the field coils of the stator rewound on the vacumn motor?
The list on the first page shows 2 different types of motor.
Why are we drifting away from the original motor design?
Why solid state?
I would like to understand the motor before I try a transformer.
artv


You should read what Tinman has posted.  He is treading a fine line. He has told you what to look for.
The name of the game is very simple.
Show disruptive technology and you are stopped - one way or another.
Or teach people to figure it out, do it quietly and no-one will bother you.
Forget about changing the world overnight. It ain't gonna happen.

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 23, 2015, 06:14:58 AM
HI ALEJANDOGUILLA. THIS FIGAMAGIG IS JUST A PROOF OF CONCEPT. THAT TO PROVE THAT IF
ONE IS GOING TO DESIGN A MEG FOR EXAMPLE ONE HAS TO DESIGN IT SO THAT THE CORE OF THE MEG
IS SATURATED SO THAT THE MAGNETIC FIELD RADIATE OUT OF THE CORE THROUGH THE PIC UP COIL..
GREAT MOVIE TO WATCH GUYS IS @FLASH OF GENIUS@ SO BE CAREFULL WE DO NOT CROSS A
GUY LIKE IN  THIS MOVIE..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 23, 2015, 06:18:13 AM
AND ALEJA THIS USES THE SHAKING TORCH PRINCIPLE..SO THE BOLT HAS TO BE
MOVED THROUGH THE SOLENOIDS TO PUMP ETHER ..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 23, 2015, 07:40:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM

Tinman,

Interesting response...

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 07:44:05 AM
Tinman,

I understand what you are saying here, and the similar statements made by you in the past.

However, this does not really answer my question.  I am curious to know whether your inability to answer or further discuss the RT is with regard to some form of suppression or more so to do with IP protection.

If it is not IP protection, surely you can state that...

PW
PW
To answer  both questions.

There is no need for any more testing-it has been 3 weeks since the test ;)

Second
Myself and Chet have already explained as to what happened. I dont think we have to go over this again. I am giving what I can so as I can keep my head above water here.
There is always a plan B--》this is plan B.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 07:59:12 AM
Tinman,

Interesting response...

PW
Yes. No relate this video to the sketches on the first page, and you will see how the SS version is going to start. Ofcourse there is the circuit to go, but that is a simple build.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 23, 2015, 08:02:27 AM
Hi everyone,

been quite busy today and manage to get some stuff together.

Here's a quick video update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JZc-UmkBg

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 23, 2015, 09:46:09 AM
Hi everyone,

been quite busy today and manage to get some stuff together.

Here's a quick video update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JZc-UmkBg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JZc-UmkBg)

Luc
Love your builds Luc. Can't wait to see how it turns out. Be interesting with such large commutator segments
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 12:21:03 PM
Hi everyone,

been quite busy today and manage to get some stuff together.

Here's a quick video update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6JZc-UmkBg

Luc

Nice builds Luc-i really like the SS build. I was thinking that the end keepers that you are going to wind the output coils on should be cut down so as the finish at the edges of the two blocks with the flux diversion coils on them-whats your thoughts on that?. I just think that the flux path needs to be as tight as possible. Im hoping you go the SS version first ;).

I have just started my SS build-dont get much time after work to do any thing,but going as quick as i can.

Brad
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 23, 2015, 12:52:51 PM
well that was weird. found the motor would spin even if the brushes were on the same side only one segment apart. Also i was charging a battery via the diode method that brad showed. I decided to hook both coils in parallel. increased the voltage but when i put one coil direct to the battery, so full wave, the motor sped up significantly and required less voltage (not measuring current atm)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 01:46:27 PM
well that was weird. found the motor would spin even if the brushes were on the same side only one segment apart. Also i was charging a battery via the diode method that brad showed. I decided to hook both coils in parallel. increased the voltage but when i put one coil direct to the battery, so full wave, the motor sped up significantly and required less voltage (not measuring current atm)

It is good to see some prepared to learn as they go,while others just expect everything handed to them on a silver plate. They dont care how it works,or how much time the inventor put into his device,as long as they get it,and can use it to there own advantage.
Now Jim-how is it that you can generate power to charge a battery,but instead of loading the prime mover up,it decreases the prime movers power consumption. Where is the lorentz force?.

Quote
I decided to hook both coils in parallel. increased the voltage but when i put one coil direct to the battery, so full wave, the motor sped up significantly and required less voltage

Im not sure what you mean here?.Was the battery feeding the coil,or the coil full wave rectified,and charging the battery?.
If the battery was feeding the coil,then you just created a magnetic field around your stator winding,and the rotor is now more attracted to that part of the stator core. You will find(or should) that if you reverse the polarity of the battery feeding the stator coil,the motor should spin backwards.You can achieve the same effect by using a PM embedded in the stator core.
If you have rectified the stator coil,and are charging the battery,then you are off to a good start.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: penno64 on July 23, 2015, 02:15:01 PM
Hi Grum,

If you stop the video at exactly 1:02 you will see the tipping of the brush. About half of the original width.

The purpose or tipping ensures only connection to one commutator segment at a time. Much like your shaved
brush in your video.

Tilting is where Brad means adjusting the brush position.

Regards, Penno

Sorry Grum,

After further viewing and going back to your video, I wish to correct the above info.

I now feel that the slanting of the brush gives more surface area and hence maybe allows connection to more comm. segments - not less.

I could be wrong but time and experimenting will tell.

Brad,

The 2 diagrams from post #1,

If the lower switch is on then is not the dc flowing directly into the lamp on the left side of the diagram?

Regards, Penno
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 23, 2015, 02:21:52 PM
Love your builds Luc. Can't wait to see how it turns out. Be interesting with such large commutator segments

Thanks Jim

Yes, rather wide commutator segments 8)   we'll see how she goes.


Nice builds Luc-i really like the SS build. I was thinking that the end keepers that you are going to wind the output coils on should be cut down so as the finish at the edges of the two blocks with the flux diversion coils on them-whats your thoughts on that?. I just think that the flux path needs to be as tight as possible. Im hoping you go the SS version first ;) .

I have just started my SS build-dont get much time after work to do any thing,but going as quick as i can.

Brad

Thanks Brad,

the reason I didn't cut down the keepers yet is, where ever we cut steel laminations there's a small build up of eddy currents at that location caused by some small shorts between laminations while cutting.  I don't know which would be worse, loosing a little flux or eddy currents, so I'll wait to cut them. Maybe adding an other magnet would be the better solution. I'll play with it fist.

An important note for everyone, if you cut transformer lanination make sure to add 1/4 inch steel plate exactly where you want the cut on each side and place it in a vice, or use vice grips or a C -clamp well tighten (on the side you want to keep) so not to cause inflation between the lamination layers while cutting. It also helps to guide the cut straight as you can rest your grinder cut off wheel on it. Also, another note is you must use as thin of a cut off blade as your grinder can use, which make the cut much cleaner and faster. No need for much pressure on the cut, let the wheel do the work. I would recommend to use a mask as there is silica in the metal which you don't want to breath. I've cut so much of the stuff and didn't think to wear a mask at first and you must wear goggles to protect your eyes.


I decided to hook both coils in parallel. increased the voltage but when i put one coil direct to the battery, so full wave, the motor sped up significantly and required less voltage (not measuring current atm)

Jim, if your input voltage drops, that is usually a sign you're using more current.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 23, 2015, 02:23:59 PM
Sorry Grum,

After further viewing and going back to your video, I wish to correct the above info.

I now feel that the slanting of the brush gives more surface area and hence maybe allows connection to more comm. segments - not less.

I could be wrong but time and experimenting will tell.

Brad,

The 2 diagrams from post #1,

If the lower switch is on then is not the dc flowing directly into the lamp on the left side of the diagram?

Regards, Penno


Pythagoras told me earlier *ducks
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 23, 2015, 02:29:40 PM
Thanks Jim

Yes, rather wide commutator segments 8)   we'll see how she goes.
[size=78%] [/size]

Jim, if your input voltage drops, that is a sign you're using more current.

Luc


The run battery drew less voltage. That's all I was measuring. Anyway odds are I'm stuffing something up but it was interesting. I have no idea what I'm doing you understand?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 23, 2015, 02:40:00 PM
.
Now Jim-how is it that you can generate power to charge a battery,but instead of loading the prime mover up,it decreases the prime movers power consumption. Where is the lorentz force?.

Im not sure what you mean here?.Was the battery feeding the coil,or the coil full wave rectified,and charging the battery?.
If the battery was feeding the coil,then you just created a magnetic field around your stator winding,and the rotor is now more attracted to that part of the stator core. You will find(or should) that if you reverse the polarity of the battery feeding the stator coil,the motor should spin backwards.You can achieve the same effect by using a PM embedded in the stator core.
If you have rectified the stator coil,and are charging the battery,then you are off to a good start.


It is a curious effect. And it's got me hooked to get my brain cells around it. A nice little challenge to be sure. Btw I'm using a completely dead 20 yo alkaline 6v dolphin torch battery as my charge battery. I've been playing with pm as well. Hard to get to the core of this one though. Not sure how alan and grum are going with the same motor. Thanks for the tips. Esp the one about the <blink>PERMANENT MAGNET </blink>
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 23, 2015, 02:41:18 PM

The run battery drew less voltage. That's all I was measuring. Anyway odds are I'm stuffing something up but it was interesting. I have no idea what I'm doing you understand?

As long as you're having fun and learning at the same time ;D

When you're using a battery to power something and you make a change and see the battery voltage go down, then it means your using more current. When you see the voltage go up, then you're using less current.

All the best mate

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 03:55:02 PM

The run battery drew less voltage. That's all I was measuring. Anyway odds are I'm stuffing something up but it was interesting. I have no idea what I'm doing you understand?

 ???

OK-im lost.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Vortex1 on July 23, 2015, 03:56:36 PM
Thanks Jim

Yes, rather wide commutator segments 8)   we'll see how she goes.


Thanks Brad,

the reason I didn't cut down the keepers yet is, where ever we cut steel laminations there's a small build up of eddy currents at that location caused by some small shorts between laminations while cutting.  I don't know which would be worse, loosing a little flux or eddy currents, so I'll wait to cut them. Maybe adding an other magnet would be the better solution. I'll play with it fist.

An important note for everyone, if you cut transformer lanination make sure to add 1/4 inch steel plate exactly where you want the cut on each side and place it in a vice, or use vice grips or a C -clamp well tighten (on the side you want to keep) so not to cause inflation between the lamination layers while cutting. It also helps to guide the cut straight as you can rest your grinder cut off wheel on it. Also, another note is you must use as thin of a cut off blade as your grinder can use, which make the cut much cleaner and faster. No need for much pressure on the cut, let the wheel do the work. I would recommend to use a mask as there is silica in the metal which you don't want to breath. I've cut so much of the stuff and didn't think to wear a mask at first and you must wear goggles to protect your eyes.


Jim, if your input voltage drops, that is usually a sign you're using more current.

Luc

LUC
Those are very good points about cutting the laminations and the possibility for eddy current shorts. After the coarse cut, If you use a fine file or belt sander lightly along the length of the cut area to clean up the shorts and varnish the cut areas, you may be able to eliminate most of the shorts.
I agree trying it as is would be a good first step.

I wonder why you are using such a large motor for your initial tests, and your motor does not have the spiral rotor laminations. Any reason? Brad's motor was supposedly from an import buffer, and they can be had for less than $20 US. Also vacuum cleaners are along many trash pickup sites on the right days, but even those may be too large, not to say that the effect is not scalable.

My initial build a few weeks back using a Hoover vac motor and the Brad FET circuit originally published does not work as shown, so there are indeed missing components / information / magnet placements etc. Only Brad knows.

Regards
Vortex1
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 23, 2015, 03:58:41 PM
You will find(or should) that if you reverse the polarity of the battery feeding the stator coil,the motor should spin backwards.You can achieve the same effect by using a PM embedded in the stator core.

Tinman,

If someone wanted to try embedding a PM in the stator, what would you suggest as the best method to do so?

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Vortex1 on July 23, 2015, 04:09:00 PM
Attached are pictures of my breadboard lashup. Thus far I have tried many combinations of wiring. I used Faston connectors which made switching polarity fairly easy. I tried the original circuit as well as my modified circuit. Nothing to report yet, only a dimly lit #1819 bulb with about 36 watts into the rotor. Data to come when I get to where I can see a significant reduction of input current as Brad did. Further testing later in the day. I intend to add some type of timing device to sync the scope so that one complete revolution equals one sweep of the scope. I might use Hall effect, optical disc or just a simple magnet and pickup coil. The optical approach would be the easiest to balance.

Yes I do have high quality Fluke DMM's and scopes not shown in the pictures. This was done a few weeks ago, I am further along in my understanding to date.

Regards, Vortex1
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 23, 2015, 04:43:46 PM
Tinman,

If someone wanted to try embedding a PM in the stator, what would you suggest as the best method to do so?

PW
I use either thread lock mill bit's,or mill drill bits for the larger holes,as normal drill bits drill triangle shaped holes,and there not very good when drilling laminated cores.Dont drill all the way through,stop a couple of mm before you go through the core. Your magnet will then slide in neatly,and will retain it self. Do not glue in,as you may have it around the wrong way ;)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 23, 2015, 05:04:10 PM
I use either thread lock mill bit's,or mill drill bits for the larger holes,as normal drill bits drill triangle shaped holes,and there not very good when drilling laminated cores.Dont drill all the way through,stop a couple of mm before you go through the core. Your magnet will then slide in neatly,and will retain it self. Do not glue in,as you may have it around the wrong way ;)

Tinman,

So, basically, you would suggest something along the lines of the images Grum posted? 

Would you suggest a fairly loose or tight fit of the PM within the bored hole (particularly with consideration of PM's flux path)?

Would you suggest using something on the backside of the PM to close the path to the frame?

As I stated in response to Grum's post, I would think that the bulk of the magnet's flux path would be more so "kept" within the material surrounding the bored hole. 

I see you also have those screw shank end mills...

PW     
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 23, 2015, 07:13:06 PM
LUC
Those are very good points about cutting the laminations and the possibility for eddy current shorts. After the coarse cut, If you use a fine file or belt sander lightly along the length of the cut area to clean up the shorts and varnish the cut areas, you may be able to eliminate most of the shorts.
I agree trying it as is would be a good first step.

I wonder why you are using such a large motor for your initial tests, and your motor does not have the spiral rotor laminations. Any reason? Brad's motor was supposedly from an import buffer, and they can be had for less than $20 US. Also vacuum cleaners are along many trash pickup sites on the right days, but even those may be too large, not to say that the effect is not scalable.

Regards
Vortex1

Hi Vortex1,

thanks for posting your comments.  I agree with you in the finer finishing of the cut laminations. I do that also and mostly with parts I want to marry together. I place a fine sand paper on a flat surface and use a perfect 90 degree block to keep the end of what I'm sanding leveled.

As for the large motor. I don't think it matters it the motor rotor has spiral sections or strait. I chose this one because the small one I was experimenting with I accidentally dropped the rotor (just after I finished cleaning it) and the commutator hit another sharp metal piece and cut the copper wires and is unrepairable. Previously I had it working once I got the timing of the brushes right. So I decided to get something more robust. If I do get it working it can only be better as there is less resistance in the winding and mostly because it's a 120vac compared to the 220vac motors.

Nice build, did you adjust the brush timing?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Vortex1 on July 23, 2015, 09:16:54 PM
Hi Vortex1,

thanks for posting your comments.  I agree with you in the finer finishing of the cut laminations. I do that also and mostly with parts I want to marry together. I place a fine sand paper on a flat surface and use a perfect 90 degree block to keep the end of what I'm sanding leveled.

As for the large motor. I don't think it matters it the motor rotor has spiral sections or strait. I chose this one because the small one I was experimenting with I accidentally dropped the rotor (just after I finished cleaning it) and the commutator hit another sharp metal piece and cut the copper wires and is unrepairable. Previously I had it working once I got the timing of the brushes right. So I decided to get something more robust. If I do get it working it can only be better as there is less resistance in the winding and mostly because it's a 120vac compared to the 220vac motors.

Nice build, did you adjust the brush timing?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Thanks Luc

No I have not played with brush timing, but I have played extensively with the FET circuit and variations of it as well as magnet placement, without much improvement. My motor does not lend it self well to brush positional changes. I won't bevel the brushes either as there is no definitive statements that this is the way to proceed. The fact that it is hinted at means it is probably not the way to go, as the suppressors would not allow truth to leak out from Brad...right? especially if he is that tightly gagged. So whatever Brad says to do, maybe it would be better to do the opposite....

I will await further messages or information before proceeding with major changes to this particular motor. Meanwhile I have lots of universal motors on hand to play with so may start another build with a motor that is expendable in that I have a few of the same type for comparison.

Cheers and good luck with this cryptic puzzle guessing game.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 23, 2015, 09:23:48 PM
Dear Brad and all.

No PM's yet but possible forward progress??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pdvvN8jcfA

Comments/observations most welcome.

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: shylo on July 23, 2015, 11:50:44 PM
Hi Grum, Are your field coils stock or did you rewind them?
You were powering the little light with the field windings correct?
If so was it just one or both coils?
I have the identical motor as yours I believe , but the output from the field coils is small.
I also have another motor where I replaced the field coil stator with a PM can ,with added collector brushes.
I can draw off the brushes but I can't combine them or feed them back to the supply.
As JimBoot stated you can power the motor with various  brush locations.
I am still working on shorting, the lenz effect needs to assist I think.
Thanks artv
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: shylo on July 23, 2015, 11:56:51 PM
Sorry for the over size pic I hate that.
Not sure how to correct it, If somebody can please do.
artv
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 24, 2015, 12:15:58 AM
Sorry for the over size pic I hate that.
Not sure how to correct it, If somebody can please do.
artv
Load your pic into paint then you can alter the size and save as a jpeg. It's all menu driven and simple
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 24, 2015, 01:19:12 AM
Tinman,

So, basically, you would suggest something along the lines of the images Grum posted? 

Would you suggest a fairly loose or tight fit of the PM within the bored hole (particularly with consideration of PM's flux path)?

Would you suggest using something on the backside of the PM to close the path to the frame?

As I stated in response to Grum's post, I would think that the bulk of the magnet's flux path would be more so "kept" within the material surrounding the bored hole. 

I see you also have those screw shank end mills...

PW   
If i was to do something like that,i would probably place the magnet inside a protective casing-like PVC pipe. Then a way to !monitor! that magnet and it's field to make sure everything is ok.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 24, 2015, 01:31:10 AM
An interesting video. Maybe helpful toward the SS version?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsN2sr3U0PY
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 24, 2015, 03:29:18 AM
Dear Brad and all.

No PM's yet but possible forward progress??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pdvvN8jcfA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pdvvN8jcfA)

Comments/observations most welcome.

Cheers Grum.


The only one qualified to comment is Tinman.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 24, 2015, 04:07:57 AM
An interesting video. Maybe helpful toward the SS version?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsN2sr3U0PY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsN2sr3U0PY)
Good observation for the tuning. Just one stator coil? Not shorting the other coil? Probes across the gen coil?
Thanks
Grum
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 24, 2015, 07:56:50 AM
Good observation for the tuning. Just one stator coil? Not shorting the other coil? Probes across the gen coil?
Thanks
Grum
Oops
Wrong video. Dont know how that happened, but I will post the correct one tonight.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 24, 2015, 08:49:17 AM
Good observation for the tuning. Just one stator coil? Not shorting the other coil? Probes across the gen coil?
Thanks
Grum
Sorry I was referring to Grums vid.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 24, 2015, 11:46:58 AM
I'll probably put up a vid later but "Tipping" or angling the brushes definitely improves output. I worked what the heck I was doing last night. I think I was taking the AC from one coil and sending it back as DC into the other one? Anyway it drops current draw by 300ma and increases output.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 24, 2015, 12:32:52 PM
Hi Grum, Are your field coils stock or did you rewind them?
You were powering the little light with the field windings correct?
If so was it just one or both coils?
I have the identical motor as yours I believe , but the output from the field coils is small.
I also have another motor where I replaced the field coil stator with a PM can ,with added collector brushes.
I can draw off the brushes but I can't combine them or feed them back to the supply.
As JimBoot stated you can power the motor with various  brush locations.
I am still working on shorting, the lenz effect needs to assist I think.
Thanks artv

Dear shylo.

The motor in the videos is a 1.8 Kw @ 240vac with stock windings. Removed from a VAX vacuum cleaner.

The incandescent bulb is a 12 V  1.8 W and was directly connected to one field coil only.

The motor field coils have an approximate inductance of 6.5 mH each. Each armature segment has an inductance of approximately 1.8 mH.

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: T-1000 on July 24, 2015, 12:44:27 PM
One thing to mention if you do rewind:

Make generator coil from IRON wire. Then observe how rotor's copper (diamagnetic) coil interact with generator iron (magnetic) coil... ;)
The opposite properties on coils is a must for best effect.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 24, 2015, 01:06:05 PM
Here you go, not 100% sure what's going on here. http://youtu.be/ymKWbcOeSSg
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 24, 2015, 01:47:21 PM
btw the lamp I'm using is rated at 12v 100ma.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 24, 2015, 04:33:26 PM
Here you go, not 100% sure what's going on here. http://youtu.be/ymKWbcOeSSg

@Jimboot,

Looks like you got the rubber to stick to the road!
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 24, 2015, 04:37:22 PM
@Jimboot,

Looks like you got the rubber to stick to the road!
I have no idea what that means

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: ramset on July 24, 2015, 04:43:36 PM
JB
When you want to make traction you need the car to "Hook Up" with the pavement...
Its a hard connection to make some times,but when the rubber sticks to the road you're in very good shape..it gets the best results.


I take it you don't race ....?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 24, 2015, 04:49:27 PM
JB
When you want to make traction you need the car to "Hook Up" with the pavement...
Its a hard connection to make some times,but when the rubber sticks to the road you're in very good shape..it gets the best results.


I take it you don't race ....?


I thought it meant I was stuck. So good to know :) Ive just been chatting to Arunas. He suggested and fbr and cap. Anyone got a recommended tutorial for calculating cap values for something like this? Thanks
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: truesearch on July 24, 2015, 04:50:44 PM
Chet:


Oh yeah! You can have all the "ponies" under the hood but unless you connect with the pavement you can't get outa the starting gate  ;D


truesearch
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: T-1000 on July 24, 2015, 04:57:31 PM

I thought it meant I was stuck. So good to know :) Ive just been chatting to Arunas. He suggested and fbr and cap. Anyone got a recommended tutorial for calculating cap values for something like this? Thanks

Just a correction - the cap is for resonance in series and the fbr for letting it fully oscillate with a coil when the load is connected.

Also I clarified about stator coils - seems they are powered by induced current which is reactive power and no way from power source directly.
So more reactive power you get  in RLC circuit faster spin of rotor goes and power will circulate on the load while the rotor will just "see" the stator as stronger magnet to go by... The rotor is the only one what is taking current from power source so faster it spins less current will be drawn.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 24, 2015, 05:44:31 PM
Dear All.

Here's the latest video. Variable brushgear.

 http://youtu.be/cHtl9IF9guM

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: allcanadian on July 24, 2015, 08:22:53 PM
I modified the original MG circuit diagram so it is easier to see what may be happening. We can see a capacitor C1 and the stator coils form an LC circuit in themselves and another capacitor C2, S1, a FWBR and the load form another LC circuit. LC-C1 may be considered as a resonant circuit while LC-C2 may also be resonant however it is dependent on the open/closed state of S1... interesting. I will leave it up the the people here to decide how all this relates to one another.
 
AC
 
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 24, 2015, 09:28:53 PM
Dear All.

Resonant single field coil.

http://youtu.be/u5fz2jAqUeo

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 25, 2015, 01:47:12 AM
Dear All.

Resonant single field coil.

http://youtu.be/u5fz2jAqUeo (http://youtu.be/u5fz2jAqUeo)

Cheers Grum.
Thanks Grum, I'll be calculating my cap this morn. I have to drag the macbook out to the lab and stick the scope on it. Only one channel working on it now.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on July 25, 2015, 04:12:31 AM
Diode.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 25, 2015, 05:16:43 AM
Diode.
nuff said.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 25, 2015, 06:12:29 AM
Diode.
Whilst i get a 200ma drop in current draw i cant seem light a lamp at all. interesting


EDIT: Ignore that - turns out im a bit of a dickhead. lamp lit
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 25, 2015, 07:09:28 AM
Whilst i get a 200ma drop in current draw i cant seem light a lamp at all. interesting


EDIT: Ignore that - turns out im a bit of a dickhead. lamp lit
Just blew the other channel of my scope. Realise it had a max input of 35v and the stator coils were putting out 36v doh
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 25, 2015, 10:20:06 AM
Hi everyone,

nice job on the resonance Grum!...  I'm glad TK is still testing. Thanks for sharing guys,

No sleep yet at  4:15am.  My fist test video of the RT is just about done. I think you guys are going to like it. I had the ideal a few weeks back and been wanting to test it.

Link to video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pib2fpHRsaM

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: shylo on July 25, 2015, 12:28:36 PM
Hi all, Excellent videos' .
Luc, does that diode prevent supply voltage from getting to your field coil?
It looks like TK is feeding 1 field coil from the other,but preventing the 2nd from being fed by the first.
I will try different diode arrangements.
Thanks artv
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 25, 2015, 12:54:05 PM

I am sure you remember that most on the other forum chased this rabbit.  Specifically they were pulsing both modified and unmodified brushed motors using PWM circuits.  In either case, in some instances, very interesting results were accomplished, some of which I was able too produce myself.  The addition of the PWM is facilitating high frequency "gating" of the low frequency produced by commutator action. You feeding it back into one of the field windings shows me that it is difficult to break away from tested concepts in the past.....in watching your demonstration, I am reminded of a demonstration you preformed a few years back where you took the flyback from a coil being pulsed and redirected it back into the coil where the flyback was being produced.   I am curious how many appreciate what you suggest at the end of the presentation...


Regards
The coil shorting you mean? Oh yeah.
Thanks Luc. Great build. Be interesting to see what a higher freq commutator would do.
I did mine in series today with a lamp in series uses 200ma less current than my previous build in parallel. However the lamp did not shine as brightly. Shorting the coils though spun just as fast with the lamp in series.


Also tried an LC circuit. Worked out I need a 0.54 mf cap but all I had was a 0.68 . Lamp shone brighter no change in current draw.





Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 25, 2015, 01:01:31 PM

I am sure you remember that most on the other forum chased this rabbit.  Specifically they were pulsing both modified and unmodified brushed motors using PWM circuits.  In either case, in some instances, very interesting results were accomplished, some of which I was able too produce myself.  The addition of the PWM is facilitating high frequency "gating" of the low frequency produced by commutator action. You feeding it back into one of the field windings shows me that it is difficult to break away from tested concepts in the past.....in watching your demonstration, I am reminded of a demonstration you preformed a few years back where you took the flyback from a coil being pulsed and redirected it back into the coil where the flyback was being produced.   I am curious how many appreciate what you suggest at the end of the presentation...


Regards

Gotoluc clearly states that he's directing flyback from the "Rotor Coil" into the "Stator Coil".
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 25, 2015, 01:24:31 PM

I didn't call into question what Luc is doing.....I know what he is doing because he specifies what he is doing.....  What I did was relate what he just presented with what he was demonstrating in the past.....research.

There was a guy with sandwiched window coils who got keen "Lenz Propulsion" redirecting flyback to the power coil that way.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 25, 2015, 01:57:42 PM
Video of the first "Lynx Joule (Flyback) Motor":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gWZchP8-Hk
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 25, 2015, 02:21:55 PM

I didn't call into question what Luc is doing.....I know what he is doing because he specifies what he is doing.....  What I did was relate what he just presented with what he was demonstrating in the past.....research.
I'm sorry I was referring to what luc was doing at the end and you wondered how many had understood what he was doing. Were you referring to the acceleration on the shorting. Were you referring to the high impedance coil discussions? The difference now being that the stators are low impedance.


Edit. Sorry I just saw your last post. Thank you.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 25, 2015, 03:57:48 PM
Video of the first "Lynx Joule (Flyback) Motor":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gWZchP8-Hk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gWZchP8-Hk)


Interesting circuit for the fly back but didn't think much of his measurements
In the first half of the vid. Anyway, I must admit I lost interest.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 25, 2015, 04:25:03 PM

Interesting circuit for the fly back but didn't think much of his measurements
In the first half of the vid. Anyway, I must admit I lost interest.

This "Flyyback" video explains what's taking place:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRyKVU6YzYw

Directing the large flyback spike back into the power coil does not increase acceleration and reduce ouput by adding power. The spike produces a "Hysterysis Loop" and causes "Lenz Reversal".

The generator coil is sending A.C. output through the diode bridge to a capacitor for a fixed time frame, from both sides of the spike. The spike is merely nested inside the enveloping charge.

The power coil cycle includes a rotor related magnetic wave event, that is reflected at a retarded pace, causing "Lenz Reversal".
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 25, 2015, 04:29:12 PM
Hi everyone,

thanks for your feedback!... pun intended

So apparently UFO politics used a PWM in his experiments. I didn't know since I only looked at his topic at the beginning and lost interest then.

Using a pwm was a quick and easy way to see what the effect of sending some of the outrageous current (2.4A) the rotor coil consumes back through flyback to the motors stator coil and load. The effect was a positive, so I shared it.

My original idea was and I still may do it, was to modify the brushes by having two sets of brushes. The second set would be a little advanced (from the first set) and would have a diode so when the first set of brushes comes off the commutator segment the rotor coils flyback would be collected by the second set of brushes and reused. That's what I wanted to do. However, it's a more complicated build and a few days ago I thought of using a pwm to chop the DC input and collecting the flyback multiple times while the brushes are still on the segment. This allowed to test the effect before hand to see if it's a worthwhile effect to pursue. I not trying to take someone else idea or work and claim it as mine. I'm only interested in results, not fame and fortune.

None of the pwm input goes through the stator coil diode. What you are seeing in the video is only rotor flyback going to the stator coil.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 25, 2015, 05:43:12 PM
I think we should all examine this patent carefully. It also talks about the amplidyne.
The patent is Robert Alexander's.


http://www.rexresearch.com/alxandr/3913004.pdf


It's very close to Tinman's research.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: poynt99 on July 25, 2015, 07:03:31 PM
As in this drawing by verpies?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: allcanadian on July 25, 2015, 07:47:06 PM
Hey Erfinder
Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uAYKhrPDPc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uAYKhrPDPc)[/font][/size]Now what this has to do with the Rotary Transformer as its being presented I can only speculate at, and I would rather not fill pages with my speculation when the source is here.  At any rate, the patent that Aking recommends, if you flip back a few pages you will see that I recommended it before Aking and Allcanadian...in light of the lack of clarity, it is by far the best bet that we have.....for the moment....


That is a very interesting video, a motor which does not load electrically when loaded mechanically. I used to think this was not possible however I have come to believe it is normal, it is just dependent on what our sense of normal is. As well I have come to understand you and I have a very different view of resonance than most anyone else I have ever met. The proverbial series resonance simply does not register in the minds of many others as we see it and I think I know what you are implying as I have seen it at the bench.


I think of it this way, if the properties which load a motor electrically can be shunted and sent down circuit, make a loop and return right back to their place of origin from the opposite direction then we have fundamentally changed the properties of the motor. That which has inhibited growth is now an integral part of that which encourages it.


I think Grumage made an awesome effort showing resonance however when I saw the video I thought to myself... that is not the resonance I was speaking of. My resonance forces a circuit element to store an amount of energy equal to that dissipated in the load..equal yet opposite. On the next cycle this stored energy adds to that from the source at resonance establishing a new operating theshold. It is simply a variation of Kirchhoff's Law which still sums to zero however where it sum's to zero has changed. The zero point of dissipation vs accumulation is moving through the system rather than being considered a static point. The law applies however in a completely different context and I have found context really does matter. The context defines what it is and how it must act in any given instance versus another.


Interesting stuff... I always like reading your posts.




AC
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 25, 2015, 08:51:18 PM

Yes, you should!  Don't waste any time waiting....begin looking into that patent now!  It mentions 3x out over in.....and does such several times!  One of the first patented examples of OU.


Yes, the credit belongs to Erfinder; So I'll repost the link:  http://www.rexresearch.com/alxandr/3913004.pdf (http://www.rexresearch.com/alxandr/3913004.pdf)
My alert was with the scope shot sketch. In my understanding that is what an OU scope shot looks like.


I'm also intrigued by the mention of the amplidyne. There is even a short thread on this site:
 http://overunity.com/12738/amplidyne-a-mechanical-amplifier/#.VbPaQ5AfjKc (http://overunity.com/12738/amplidyne-a-mechanical-amplifier/#.VbPaQ5AfjKc)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: poynt99 on July 25, 2015, 09:20:52 PM
How to loop test an apparent COP>1 device...
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on July 25, 2015, 10:45:14 PM
Well, I don't want to get too far behind, so here's my "Diode" video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1RMtlJnk
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2015, 12:18:44 AM
There is really no difference between the motor shown in the video and the "unaltered" motor, since the only alteration was to disconnect the wires that connected the two stator coils in series and bring those wires out of the motor. For this demo I re-connected the coil wires so that they are once again in series just exactly like the stock motor. The only possible difference is that in the "stock" motor there is about an inch of wire connecting the two coils in series inside the motor, and now there is about 6 inches of wire doing the same thing, with the connection moved outside the motor instead of inside.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2015, 01:01:06 AM

I didn't bring up UFO to take away from what you demonstrated, nor are you being accused of taking someones work, nor looking for fame or fortune. 

Regards

I realize that. The reason I wrote about it was, I realize I forgot to explain (in the video) what my reasoning for this test was and how I really wanted to do it.

I will be the first to admit that 99.9% of what UFO stated, I am not in agreement with!  Needless to say, the idea of driving a commutated motor with a PWM was interesting, and showed some real promise, since you brought the concept to the table once again, I felt mentioning the old was justified.  Here is one of the better experiments conducted by one individual who also saw merit in the concept.  He did not take the concept any further than his guru inspired him to.....sad..... 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uAYKhrPDPc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uAYKhrPDPc)


Prior to his build I had built a circuit that operated a motor the same way (no extra current under load. I also have the same motor but a 24vdc  400 rpm. It puts on a good show but it's not what I was looking for, so I think I didn't bothered making a video to show it.
This can be done with any DC motor with an isolated flip flop cap charge discharge circuit. The source is never connected to the motor. Only a fixed value cap is connected between source and motor and never both at the same time.

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 26, 2015, 02:21:29 AM
Well, I don't want to get too far behind, so here's my "Diode" video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1RMtlJnk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1RMtlJnk)
Lol. Have you measured any output on that? I found that even though the motor sped up,output was not affected until I adjusted the brushes.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2015, 02:45:29 AM
I was meaning more along the lines of input and RPM,,  so 12V @50ma for the stock for say 2000 RPM and maybe the same or worse for the altered motor.
In that video there is really _no difference_ between the stock motor and the rewired one, because I have reconnected the series stator coils for the demo. The only difference is that the stock motor has the two stator coils connected inside the motor, and the rewired motor has that connection broken, and brought outside the motor, where I reconnected it for the demonstration. So about 6 inches of wire, is the only difference.
Quote
So are you saying that in the stock motor you are using the stator coils are not powered with the rotor??  The universals that I have have the stator windings in series with the rotor windings,, one of them has one of the inputs going into one of the stator windings then out  and into the rotor,, then out of the  rotor and into the other stator winding and then out for the other input.
That is right, on my motors there is _no connection at all_ between the armature brushes and the stator windings, unless I make that connection outside the motor. And for the demo in the video I did not make any connection between the brushes and the stators.

See the image below.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on July 26, 2015, 02:46:35 AM
Lol. Have you measured any output on that? I found that even though the motor sped up,output was not affected until I adjusted the brushes.

wait a bit for the next video
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 26, 2015, 02:50:49 AM
I think we should all examine this patent carefully. It also talks about the amplidyne.
The patent is Robert Alexander's.


http://www.rexresearch.com/alxandr/3913004.pdf (http://www.rexresearch.com/alxandr/3913004.pdf)


It's very close to Tinman's research.


Anyone using 4 poles? :) Here is the Google link to same patent http://www.google.com/patents/US3913004 (http://www.google.com/patents/US3913004). looks like I'll be rewinding a rotor today. Any advice appreciated.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2015, 05:01:14 AM
Hi everyone,

the below was a post from TinMan at OUR forum on my last video to which I reply by another video and thought it may help clear the air for others here as well.


Quote
Quote from: TinMan on 2015-07-25, 18:18:53 (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2912.msg50752#msg50752)Luc
There is no inductive kickback from the rotor coils of one of these motors,as the coils are all connected-there is never an open circuit for an inductive kickback current to flow out from. What you see as high voltage spikes on the scope is only brush noise/arcing. The coils of the rotor form one big current loop. RF is generated from brush arcing due to high current's,and more so bad brush contact to the rotors armature.
.

I would say this is incorrect,and that your PWM pulses are indeed what is going through to your stator coil. Using your diode setup,capture the output from the rotor diode into a high voltage cap,and see what the voltage climbs to.
Quote

Wow :o ...  I'm surprised of your answer and of how sure you are of it.  Is this really you writing this or have the MIB taken over your account?

In any even, I made a video to demonstrate your suggestion to send the flyback to a cap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-CqJLUKfc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-CqJLUKfc)

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 26, 2015, 08:10:03 AM
Hi everyone,

the below was a post from TinMan at OUR forum on my last video to which I reply by another video and thought it may help clear the air for others here as well.

Luc
There is no inductive kickback from the rotor coils of one of these motors,as the coils are all connected-there is never an open circuit for an inductive kickback current to flow out from. What you see as high voltage spikes on the scope is only brush noise/arcing. The coils of the rotor form one big current loop. RF is generated from brush arcing due to high current's,and more so bad brush contact to the rotors armature.
.

I would say this is incorrect,and that your PWM pulses are indeed what is going through to your stator coil. Using your diode setup,capture the output from the rotor diode into a high voltage cap,and see what the voltage climbs to.

Reply by gotoluc:
Wow :o ...  I'm surprised of your answer and of how sure you are of it.  Is this really you writing this or have the MIB taken over your account?

In any even, I made a video to demonstrate your suggestion to send the flyback to a cap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-CqJLUKfc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-CqJLUKfc)

Luc

Luc
Could you please post a quick schematic of your inductive kickback circuit,as i cannot get anymore than the input voltage out of the brush contacts. The only way i see you getting that sort of voltage out of the rotor is by way of making your rotor coils act as a stepup transformer. For example,if you had 20 turns on your rotor coil,then applying 12 volts,then switching that 12 volts off,you should be able to get around 240 volts out.
Also,please understand that my answer is in relation to you placing more brushes on the rotor to collect the flyback.

Thanks.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 26, 2015, 08:18:46 AM
@Erfinder I've been researching high voltage low current motors and also the Alexander patent. Any ideas what would those sort of motors be typically found in?
thanks
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 26, 2015, 10:31:29 AM

Thanks Erfinder.


A few things I've learned today.
I used one of my pulse motor circuits to drive the motor. Pretty ordinary performance.
I shorted the stator coils using a reed. Not much joy there. Lowered the output.
On the upside I found that with more area of the brush making contact the greater the output and therefore lower current draw ( I love that new law)


My motor unloaded draws about 2.1A loaded 1.5A . That's having the stators in series. More speed does not necessarily equal more output. Now i think I need to go and get a washing machine :)



Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gyulasun on July 26, 2015, 11:21:43 AM
Not sure why my last post(like Luc's last post) is highlighted as a quote.?

Hi Brad,

It remained as a quote because there must have been a   /quote  symbol left as the last line and you started your answer above that last line.  Just place that symbol above the line of your answer, using the Modify icon on the right side of your post.


Regarding the schematic on Luc's setup:  I think the input DC voltage going to the brushes is interrupted by a MOSFET so that the rotor coil is between the drain of the MOSFET and the input positive battery rail, and the MOSFET is controlled by a function generator between the gate and the source pins.  The positive rail goes to the lower brush of the motor as shown in the video and the flyback diode is connected to the upper brush which is also the drain of the MOSFET, as I see it in the video.

EDIT  the    /quote    symbol is embraced with these two brackets of course:  [ ] 

Gyula
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 26, 2015, 12:03:15 PM
Hi Brad,

It remained as a quote because there must have been a   /quote  symbol left as the last line and you started your answer above that last line.  Just place that symbol above the line of your answer, using the Modify icon on the right side of your post.


Regarding the schematic on Luc's setup:  I think the input DC voltage going to the brushes is interrupted by a MOSFET so that the rotor coil is between the drain of the MOSFET and the input positive battery rail, and the MOSFET is controlled by a function generator between the gate and the source pins.  The positive rail goes to the lower brush of the motor as shown in the video and the flyback diode is connected to the upper brush which is also the drain of the MOSFET, as I see it in the video.

Gyula

I have a feeling that what i consider to be flyback is different to what Luc considers to be flyback.
To me,in order to get flyback,or inductive kickback,the coil has to become open. As the coils on the rotor are all interconected,they can never become open to produce a flyback<-- as i know it to be.
I believe what Luc see's as flyback in this situation,i see more as being a stepup transformer action.

Anyway,i am surprised to see that cap charge up so high in his demo video.
It is good to learn something new. Now i will be interested to see if he can make it work without the PWM,and by adding that second set of brushes to catch this high voltage-!what ever it is!
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gyulasun on July 26, 2015, 12:16:40 PM
Hi Brad,

It is okay that you consider a coil  has to become open to get the flyback pulse across it just after interrupting the current in the coil.  It is also okay that in a rotor the coils are all in series ring so in this sense they are never 'open'  BUT consider the two brushes always see a certain L inductance which always consists of  two 'half circles', one on the left and the other on the right direction and these two 'half circle' of series coils are connected in parallel with each other as the brushes see them, ok?
So the result is that there is always a resulting L inductance towards the 'outside world'  and whenever a current is interrupted in any L inductance, the voltage spike occurs, no matter if there are shunting coils in parallel.  By the way the Teal patents deal with paralleled coils if I recall correctly.

Gyula
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 26, 2015, 02:16:38 PM
Dear All.

Brad's " Brush tipping " pictorially.

Automatic coil shorting ??   ;)

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 26, 2015, 02:57:29 PM
Dear All.

Brad's " Brush tipping " pictorially.

Automatic coil shorting ??   ;)

Cheers Grum.
Wrong coils.
But you did just show why the brushes arc ;)
Most believe it is from high voltage kickback,when it is in fact high current arcs produced by each coil being shorted by the brushes as you have shown.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 26, 2015, 03:11:05 PM
For your entertainment
As you will see,current causes the light show from the brushes,not voltage.
Voltage potential will only define as to how large the gap can be before !current! will begin to flow. As the gap between the brush and commutator segment will only be very small,the only a low voltage potential is required for current to flow.High voltage is also not required to see spark fly when hooking a clip lead to a wire as Luc suggested in his video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGMMDBkf1RY
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 26, 2015, 04:06:21 PM
Wrong coils.
But you did just show why the brushes arc ;)
Most believe it is from high voltage kickback,when it is in fact high current arcs produced by each coil being shorted by the brushes as you have shown.

Dear Brad.

So are you saying that it would be better with Fig 2 ?

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 26, 2015, 04:14:51 PM
Dear Brad.

So are you saying that it would be better with Fig 2 ?

Cheers Grum.
Grum
The shorting of the coils via the brushes is somthing you cannot change-unless you make your brushes thinner than the gap between the armature segments. That shorting of the coils is actually good,as that is when you see the high voltage spike on the stator coil's,as a large magnetic field is produced from the rotor coil when the brush shorts that coil.

Here is a video where i am looking for the !so called! high voltage flybacks from the rotor coils.
As you can see on the scope-there is none,even though i can see the brushes arcing slightly. The arcs are from the brushes when they are shorting each coil-not from some high voltage arc,but from a high current due to the short.

I didnt get the second half of the video due to my PWM being fried. Will post it when it's repaired.
Enjoy the background scenery of my video from now on ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlRiXMR9VAE
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: poynt99 on July 26, 2015, 04:15:14 PM
For your entertainment
As you will see,current causes the light show from the brushes,not voltage.
Voltage potential will only define as to how large the gap can be before !current! will begin to flow. As the gap between the brush and commutator segment will only be very small,the only a low voltage potential is required for current to flow.High voltage is also not required to see spark fly when hooking a clip lead to a wire as Luc suggested in his video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGMMDBkf1RY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGMMDBkf1RY)
To help resolve the issue, putting a scope on the coil in each case would speak volumes. Guess you posted while I was writing this.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2015, 04:28:57 PM
Luc
Could you please post a quick schematic of your inductive kickback circuit,as i cannot get anymore than the input voltage out of the brush contacts. The only way i see you getting that sort of voltage out of the rotor is by way of making your rotor coils act as a stepup transformer. For example,if you had 20 turns on your rotor coil,then applying 12 volts,then switching that 12 volts off,you should be able to get around 240 volts out.
Also,please understand that my answer is in relation to you placing more brushes on the rotor to collect the flyback.

Thanks.

Hi Brad,

please find the attached circuit. Last night after doing more test I found by adding a second diode on the other stator coil which I had left open in the last two videos it helped to lower the current.

I think this method of collecting Rotor flyback would be as good if not better than trying to make a dual brush system.
Keep in mind the rotor coil is being fully turned on and off multiple times during the time the brush is on each commutator segment and at the frequency and pulse width of your choice. So I think this would be better and offer more flexibility then a physical dual brush system.

I would suggest you add this simple component to your v.3 RT and you may find you can further lower the input power.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 26, 2015, 04:40:59 PM
Hi Brad,

please find the attached circuit. Last night after doing more test I found by adding a second diode on the other stator coil which I had left open in the last two videosit helped to lower the current.

I think this method of collecting Rotor flyback would be as good if not better than trying to make a dual brush system.
Keep in mind the rotor coil are being fully turned on and off multiple times during the time the brush is on each commutator segment and at the frequency and pulse width of your choice. So I think this would beet a dual brush system.

I would suggest you add this simple component to your v.3 RT and you may find you can further lower the input power.

Luc
Luc
You have included one of the stator coils,and that coil will become open when the mosfet opens.
I thought you wanted to know if you could collect a high voltage from the rotor only if you added more brushes to collect this mystery flyback from the rotor coils.
What i was trying to say(and have shown)there is no high voltage from the rotor coils just because you see arc's at the brushes. This voltage is very low,but the current flow is high when the coil is shorted by the brush.
You pulsing the coils is very different to using the brushes only,and trying to collect from that.To get any sort of higher end voltage,you would need some really crappy brush/armature contact.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2015, 05:10:10 PM
Brad,

I don't understand the confusion.

First,  fact, any coil will produce flyback when the power source is disconnected, so the rotor coils are not exempted.

Second, my idea to collect the rotor flyback was because the input current is outrageously high when only the rotor coils are connected, so I was trying to lower it by using something that is normally wasted.

Third, if the stator coils are separate from the rotor coils, then why not direct the flyback in them and see if it can assist the rotor.

Forth, it does work and better than I thought so why not consider using it?

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 26, 2015, 05:13:56 PM
Grum
The shorting of the coils via the brushes is somthing you cannot change-unless you make your brushes thinner than the gap between the armature segments. That shorting of the coils is actually good,as that is when you see the high voltage spike on the stator coil's,as a large magnetic field is produced from the rotor coil when the brush shorts that coil.

Here is a video where i am looking for the !so called! high voltage flybacks from the rotor coils.
As you can see on the scope-there is none,even though i can see the brushes arcing slightly. The arcs are from the brushes when they are shorting each coil-not from some high voltage arc,but from a high current due to the short.

I didnt get the second half of the video due to my PWM being fried. Will post it when it's repaired.
Enjoy the background scenery of my video from now on ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlRiXMR9VAE

Dear Brad.

Thank you for those educational videos.

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 26, 2015, 05:23:50 PM
I thought you wanted to know if you could collect a high voltage from the rotor only if you added more brushes to collect this mystery flyback from the rotor coils.

I knew before doing the test and obviously after doing the test that I can collect high voltage flyback from the rotor coils, irrespective of my original ideal of dual brushes. 

What i was trying to say(and have shown)there is no high voltage from the rotor coils just because you see arc's at the brushes. This voltage is very low,but the current flow is high when the coil is shorted by the brush.

Your test could not show the rotor flyback using just diodes. Attache a switch with a low pulse width with a flyback diode and the story will change.
I know the current is high and I now understand what your brushes are doing.

You pulsing the coils is very different to using the brushes only,and trying to collect from that.To get any sort of higher end voltage,you would need some really crappy brush/armature contact.

Not sure where you're going with this

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: picowatt on July 26, 2015, 07:00:35 PM
To help resolve the issue, putting a scope on the coil in each case would speak volumes. Guess you posted while I was writing this.

I agree with .99, my eyeballs are not calibrated for arc voltage measurement. 

Tinman, consider repeating your scratch plate test using a scope with (at least) 10X probes connected across the arc.

Recall being a kid and lighting a NE-2 with just a LV battery, some relatively short lengths of hookup wire (clip leads in today's parlance) and an ordinary metal file connected in series.  Scratching one lead across the face of the file produced an on/off pulse train that, in concert with the minimal lead inductance, produced enough voltage to light the NE-2 connected across the small arcs produced.

Connecting an NE-2 between your brush and scratch plate might just light up the NE-2 as well.

PW
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gyulasun on July 26, 2015, 11:53:33 PM
Hi Luc,

Quote from: tinman on Today at 04:40:59 PM

    You pulsing the coils is very different to using the brushes only,and trying to collect from that.To get any sort of higher end voltage,you would need some really crappy brush/armature contact.

Answer from you: Not sure where you're going with this.


I think Brad means that in order to receive HV spikes from the rotor coils (by using brushes only and no MOSFET switching),  the electrical contact between the brushes and the copper commutators of the rotor would need to be very bad, meaning less frequent contacts.

This would involve less chance for the brushes to short the gaps (because of crappy i.e less frequent contacts), this would result in a higher self inductance for the coils on the rotor hence the collapsing field would be able to make higher amplitude flyback pulses than in the normal brush-commutator contact case when the brushes do short the gaps hence the resulting coil inductance of the rotor can only be smaller than in the crappy contact case.

I think it is okay that there is a difference in pulsing the rotor coils by a MOSFET (while the brushes also work as normally they should)  and by the brushes only (when no MOSFET used).  In the first case the number of interruptions is more frequent than in the case of the brushes only, and can also happen when there are no adjacent segment shortings done by the brushes. 

In case of using the normal brushes only (no MOSFET switch) you can shift the position of one of the brushes a little to insure that segment shorting should only happen at one of the brushes at a time and not simultaniously at both brushes. This way, out of the 8 rotor coils (say there 8 coils in the rotor), always only one of the 8 coils would become shorted instead of two, this latter in case of a normal (symmetrical) brush positioning always happens.  Even so, the use of a MOSFET switch to capture the flyback HV pulse energy in the rotor can be more favorable than in case of the shifted brush position.

Gyula
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 27, 2015, 01:15:45 AM
Brad,

I don't understand the confusion.

First,  fact, any coil will produce flyback when the power source is disconnected, so the rotor coils are not exempted.

Second, my idea to collect the rotor flyback was because the input current is outrageously high when only the rotor coils are connected, so I was trying to lower it by using something that is normally wasted.

Third, if the stator coils are separate from the rotor coils, then why not direct the flyback in them and see if it can assist the rotor.

Forth, it does work and better than I thought so why not consider using it?

Luc

Totally agree Luc.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Brad
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 27, 2015, 01:54:04 AM
Totally agree Luc.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Brad

@Luc,

Can shorting the output coil help in combination with directing the rotor flyback to the stator winding in "Tinman's" split stator coil configuration? Could a third commutator help?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 27, 2015, 04:02:03 AM
@ Gyula, thanks for taking the time to explain Brad's post.

You help is always appreciated and I'm sure I speak for many of the researchers you have helped and continue to help.

Luc

@Luc,

Can shorting the output coil help in combination with directing the rotor flyback to the stator winding in "Tinman's" split stator coil configuration? Could a third commutator help?

I don't know as I have not done that yet. I was first trying to understand what was up with the rotor coil and brushes.

In time and experiments it will come

Totally agree Luc.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Brad

Glad to hear that!  nothing like testing for our self

The reason I was looking for a way to re-direct rotor flyback to the stator coil was because I though that may be what you were doing. I knew for sure something was up with the rotor coil and brushes.
It's interesting how it turned out ;D

I'll experiment with rotor shorting and see how it compares.

Thanks mate

Luc

For your entertainment
As you will see,current causes the light show from the brushes,not voltage.
Voltage potential will only define as to how large the gap can be before !current! will begin to flow. As the gap between the brush and commutator segment will only be very small,the only a low voltage potential is required for current to flow.High voltage is also not required to see spark fly when hooking a clip lead to a wire as Luc suggested in his video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGMMDBkf1RY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGMMDBkf1RY)

I was busy all day  only noticed this post now

Wow! that's an eye opener :o

Thanks mate for taking the time to do this video!

I will never look at a spark the same way ;) and I'm sure other also.

Thanks for enlightening me

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: hoptoad on July 27, 2015, 12:17:46 PM
snip...
I don't know as I have not done that yet. I was first trying to understand what was up with the rotor coil and brushes.
In time and experiments it will come
snip..
You may find this 'old school' info movie useful. It's a great overview covering a lot of material mentioned on this thread and others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpL0joqJmqY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpL0joqJmqY)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 27, 2015, 12:31:45 PM
Dear MileHigh and Mak E.

I was a little shocked to find 7 PM's in my messages box this morning, the most ever has been 2 !!

Please refrain, I'm not interested.

I will pursue my line of experiments, my way, I don't need " guidance. "

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 27, 2015, 12:34:56 PM
Dear MileHigh and Mak E.

I was a little shocked to find 7 PM's in my messages box this morning, the most ever has been 2 !!

Please refrain, I'm not interested.

I will pursue my line of experiments, my way, I don't need " guidance. "

Cheers Grum.


HI Guys, yep take me off too please. I tried to understand it but you lost me at "I've added you because.."
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 27, 2015, 12:51:18 PM
I would like to post a few things here,so as those working on this project are not led astray.

As most here will know,i disagree with the arcing at the brushes being from high voltage flyback<--as some refer to it. It is my belief that the arcing is from high current flow at a relatively low voltage.

I would like to post some comments by verpies at OUR here.

Quote TinMan
There is no inductive kickback from the rotor coils of one of these motors, as the coils are all connected-there is never an open circuit for an inductive kickback current to flow out from.   The coils of the rotor form one big current loop


Quote verpies: That's true.
The brushes periodically short windings as they span two commutator segments during their travel.  Filing down brushes minimizes the time during which two commutator segments (and windings) are shorted.

To avoid this shorting altogether, the brushes' tips would have to be filed down to a width less than the gap between commutator segments. This is both impractical and undesirable as this will interrupt the current to the windings and inductors "hate" when this is done to them.

Unlike capacitors, inductors do not create spikes and sparks when shorted, but when opened - they do.
In other words: inductors "like" to be shorted - capacitors do not.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: TinMan on 2015-07-25, 18:18:53
What you see as high voltage spikes on the scope is only brush noise/arcing. RF is generated from brush arcing due to high current's,and more so bad brush contact to the rotors armature.

Quote verpies:Yes



Quote
Quote Luc
You don't want to call it a "flyback spike"... so what do you want to call the effect when a coils current is shut off?
How can the current not reverse direction when the mosfet opens? if it didn't the capacitor would not get charged so fast and so high since the blocking diode only allows reverse current to go through.

Luc
The current will continue to flow in the same direction through that coil/inductor when the current flow supply is cut(becomes open) to that coil/inductor-the current flow dose not reverse in direction in that coil. Only the voltage polarity will change across that coil.

Now i know MH is going to be reading this,and i await his PM as to what i am going to say and show by way of video next(not my video by the way)

What he(and others) think brush arcing is,is high voltage kickback/flyback causing ionization of the air.<--this is not true.
The bright blue colored arcing you see is actually carbon and copper particles being ignited by the high current produced when the brush shorts each coil. During this high current flow,high temperatures are reached which ignite the particles from the brushes and commutator segments-this is why your brushes and commutator ware down after some time.

In the video below,you can actually see these particles still burning away between the commutator segments long after that segment has passed by the brush. You will also note that the arcing takes place exactly as the brush shorts each coil.

Luc
You were wondering why one brush gets hot,while the other stays cool. Well the answer is in the video-can you spot it?-which brush is doing almost all the arcing?-->which brush is the one shorting the coils first-which brush is the leading brush.

Unfortunately the guy said at the end that it was the voltage that was sustaining the arc,but as you can see,particles are still burning away even after the commutator segment has passed the brush. It is important to understand what really is happening,and what the arcs actually are you see at the brushes. The more sparks,arcs and pretty blue lights you see-the faster your brushes are wearing away<-- that wonderful light show is your brushes going up in smoke
Enjoy the video guy's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc4l1eooPKM


Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 27, 2015, 01:02:23 PM
Dear MileHigh and Mak E.

I was a little shocked to find 7 PM's in my messages box this morning, the most ever has been 2 !!

Please refrain, I'm not interested.

I will pursue my line of experiments, my way, I don't need " guidance. "

Cheers Grum.

Grum
The reason MH has included you in the email chain,is because that lovely fellow EMJ had MH band from posting ::),so this is the only way he can put forth his comments at the moment.

As EMJ seems to have gone walkabout,i think Stefan could lift the ban on MH.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 27, 2015, 01:05:09 PM
Dear Brad.

Stefan could REALLY do with a thumbs up icon !!

I will have to use this one instead...............   ;)

Cheers Grum.

Edit. I have noticed our posts have crossed, I was referring, of course,to your video link!!

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 27, 2015, 01:28:12 PM
Here is another great video where you will see two things.
First-in the second run whit the weak field(as he calls it) You see the motor start up-but no arcing !until! the brushes and armature begin to heat up. When the brushes get hot enough,we see a really good light show. This is the brush material disintergrating-you can even see large red hot pieces being ejected on the left side brush.

Second-it the later half of the video,you see his scope showing various test points. The red trace at the bottom is the one to watch. If you listen carefully,you can hear when the brushes have heated up,and start to arc-at this very time,you will see the red trace go all wobbly at the peak-this is when the brushes are arcing. !BUT! do you see any high voltage spikes on that trace?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO46RVWOnb4
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: hoptoad on July 27, 2015, 01:40:41 PM
You want to see sparks, here's some sparks. LOL!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0usO4r3rlCQ
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 27, 2015, 02:07:31 PM
Here is another great video where you will see two things.
First-in the second run whit the weak field(as he calls it) You see the motor start up-but no arcing !until! the brushes and armature begin to heat up. When the brushes get hot enough,we see a really good light show. This is the brush material disintergrating-you can even see large red hot pieces being ejected on the left side brush.

Second-it the later half of the video,you see his scope showing various test points. The red trace at the bottom is the one to watch. If you listen carefully,you can hear when the brushes have heated up,and start to arc-at this very time,you will see the red trace go all wobbly at the peak-this is when the brushes are arcing. !BUT! do you see any high voltage spikes on that trace?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO46RVWOnb4

@Tinman,

That looks like more then sparks at 1:31 in the video! Looks more like the "Ion Cloud" Webby1 spoke of: "Plasma transition" of hydrogen in the air? An abundance of "Ionized" free electrons attracted to the current path; Perhaps the source of the HV spikes?

Tinman's measured OU may be a consequence of this kind of "Plasma Transition Effect" from over speeding! The motor burning itself for fuel! Tinman would have to run his motor in a vaccum to test for it: "Red Line Plasma Gain".
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 27, 2015, 02:24:02 PM
Recommended viewing for both of those. No spikes, it was pretty easy to hear the motor fall apart and the red trace deterioration.
I've learned a lot tonight already :)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Void on July 27, 2015, 02:46:41 PM
Hi Tinman. Regarding arcing between the commutator and brushes, this is my understanding of it, although I may not have
everything exactly 100% correct, this should be the general idea.

You have two different types of arcing. You can have arcing in air due to high voltage causing ionization breakdown of the air across a fixed
gap which causes current to flow through the ionized air where there previously was no current flow. This type of arcing in air requires a
high voltage to initiate the air ionization and the subsequent arcing and current discharges.

Another type of arcing such as seen between electric motor commutators and brushes and on breaking relay contacts is sometimes called
breaking arcing. This is where you have a current flowing in a wire or coil and you then start separating the contacts in the wire. If the current is
of high enough magnitude, you will see arcing in the gap as the wire contacts are separated. The cause of this type of arcing is still
the same, ionization of the air. When you start to break an existing current flow by starting to separate contacts, there is enough energy in the
electron current flow to ionize the air in the very narrow air gap that starts to form between the contacts when you first start separating
the contacts. As the gap between the contacts (commutator and brush in this case) continues to widen, the current flowing though
the tiny initial gap in the air continues to ionize more air molecules/atoms and the arc grows bigger until the energy driving the current
dissipates, as in the case of a collapsing magnetic field around a coil, to a low enough point that it can no longer sustain the arc, or the
gap becomes too wide to allow the arcing to continue any further. It is still arcing due to air ionization. I believe it is able to ionize the air
at a much lower voltage than for the first type of arcing because the air gap starts out very tiny between the contacts and you already have
an electron current flow between the contacts which helps to get the ionization started as the narrow air gap starts to form. 

When the commutator and brushes heat up, they heat up the air around them, and air at a higher termperature breaks down into ionization easier
due to the molecules and atoms in the air having more energy, and thus more motion and higher energy collisions.

In the case of where you are breaking contact in a high current coil circuit, you may not see a very high voltage spike because the current
never really fully breaks abruptly. You go from current flowing through the touching contacts to about the same current continuing to flow
as the contacts start to seperate and acring starts in the air, and then the current drops off gradually as the gap continues to widen and as
the energy in the coil continues to diissipate through the arc. If the arcing is initiated by fairly high current, the arc can be quite hot and can
speed up the breakdown of the metals in the commutator and brushes, and you may see glowing bits of metal as little pieces of metal
break off. The high current arcing is what is making the little bits of metal glow however. The one exception might be where you have
badly scored or chipped brushes and commutators and maybe misaligned brushes and the friction and impacts between the rough surfaces
may cause excessive heating in the metals and maybe metal sparking as little pieces heat up and break off, but that would be a problem due
to damaged or warped or a misaligned commutators and brushes. You could maybe have both this type of sparking and arcing going on in
this case.
All the best...


Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 27, 2015, 03:15:30 PM
In the video below,you can actually see these particles still burning away between the commutator segments long after that segment has passed by the brush. You will also note that the arcing takes place exactly as the brush shorts each coil.

Luc
You were wondering why one brush gets hot,while the other stays cool. Well the answer is in the video-can you spot it?-which brush is doing almost all the arcing?-->which brush is the one shorting the coils first-which brush is the leading brush.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc4l1eooPKM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc4l1eooPKM)

So my best guess is, even though the brushes look to be in alignment it would only take a very small variation for one brush to lead.

Would you say I understand correctly?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 27, 2015, 03:33:31 PM
So my best guess is, even though the brushes look to be in alignment it would only take a very small variation for one brush to lead.

Would you say I understand correctly?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Or does it change with polarity?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 27, 2015, 03:51:51 PM
NOBODY TOLD ME IT WAS GOING TO BE THAT HARD. ANYWAY MY SMALL
CONTRIBUTION..FORGIVE ME CAP NAZIES.  :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0wPIhGFk8&amp=&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 27, 2015, 03:59:32 PM
So my best guess is, even though the brushes look to be in alignment it would only take a very small variation for one brush to lead.

Would you say I understand correctly?

Thanks for sharing

Luc
A number of things can cause one brush to get hotter than the other,but yes,that is one of those reasons.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 27, 2015, 04:06:39 PM
and thanks tinman for this video editor software..make pain my friend..great aussi
commercial..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 27, 2015, 04:17:50 PM
NOBODY TOLD ME IT WAS GOING TO BE THAT HARD. ANYWAY MY SMALL
CONTRIBUTION..FORGIVE ME CAP NAZIES.  :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0wPIhGFk8&amp=&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0wPIhGFk8&amp=&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Thanks seychelles for putting the effort in to making a video demo. I know it's not easy when you live in the middle of nowhere!

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 27, 2015, 04:36:08 PM
Just want to throw this in there,as there is no sound like a V8 on song.
This is Australias most famous muscle car-the holden torana-Jimboot will know where im coming from.

So for a brief moment,forget about free energy,and have a listen to an extream amount of energy-that isnt free lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJLXTFiDHO0
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 27, 2015, 04:49:44 PM


                    "CREATED FOR THE GUM LEAF EATING CREATURE TK"!
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 27, 2015, 05:00:00 PM
yeah he is my inspiration .
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: ramset on July 27, 2015, 05:30:58 PM
TinMan
I personally have a big problem with big bore Noisy fire breathing V8's


It calls to some very dark side of me that turns me into a raving lunatic ....


Bliss...


thx
PS to Syncro
Chill on the Tinsel Taunts

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 27, 2015, 05:33:29 PM
yeah he is my inspiration .

Very nice set up.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 27, 2015, 05:42:25 PM
"Electrical circuits in plasmas store inductive (magnetic) energy, and should the circuit be disrupted, for example, by a plasma instability, the inductive energy will be released as plasma heating and acceleration".

The "Magnetic Plasma Field" can generate enough current when disrupted to cause rotor acceleration!

Tinman pushes his motor r.p.m. deep into the red line with a few modifications. He may cause enough electrical arcing to get a power boost from magnetic plasma.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Void on July 27, 2015, 05:54:06 PM
Anyway my small contribution..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0wPIhGFk8&amp=&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Hi Seychelles. Not that it matters too much for your demo, but I think the first current reading was around 3A,
and the second current reading after switching the diode direction was around 2A. Each little division on
your DC ammeter is 0.5A. So the current draw dropped by about 1A after switching the diode direction. :)
All the best...
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 27, 2015, 06:17:42 PM
void thanks for the correction. these brushes are tilted to aprox 45 degrees ..mind you
this motor is unmodified.. so an increase in efficiency when the rotor is rotating against
the brushes..but then again it is all here say..one have to put a lot of things into context.
1 the rev of the motor 2 torque of the rotor. 3 current used.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on July 27, 2015, 11:33:26 PM
1. If an electric motor is spinning freely at its max RPM with no load on it, there is _no_ extra torque available from the motor! All the mechanical power produced goes into overcoming bearing friction, brush friction, windage, electromagnetic effects, etc. If you put a load on it, the speed will change, and the power consumption will change, until a new equilibrium is reached.

At least the motor in my demonstration is actually driving a mechanical load; the tape flag is moving quite a bit of air.

2. Is electricity being "produced"? That all depends on what you mean by "produced". It's not coming out of thin air! Nor is it coming from "magnetic plasma" or other fictitious sources in these experiments. The changing magnetic fields of the armature, produced by the brushes energizing segments in combination with the motion of the armature itself, "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils, in perfect accordance with Faraday's Law of Induction. The faster the magnetic fields _change_ through the stator coils, the greater the induction effect.

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 28, 2015, 01:29:58 AM

At least the motor in my demonstration is actually driving a mechanical load; the tape flag is moving quite a bit of air.

2. Is electricity being "produced"? That all depends on what you mean by "produced". It's not coming out of thin air! Nor is it coming from "magnetic plasma" or other fictitious sources in these experiments. The changing magnetic fields of the armature, produced by the brushes energizing segments in combination with the motion of the armature itself, "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils, in perfect accordance with Faraday's Law of Induction. The faster the magnetic fields _change_ through the stator coils, the greater the induction effect.

Quote
1. If an electric motor is spinning freely at its max RPM with no load on it, there is _no_ extra torque available from the motor! All the mechanical power produced goes into overcoming bearing friction, brush friction, windage, electromagnetic effects, etc. If you put a load on it, the speed will change, and the power consumption will change, until a new equilibrium is reached.

That is correct.
And if the motor is configured correctly,then we can increase the speed,increase the load,and decrease power consumption.
Open case demo modle will be done by weekend,and posted here. ;)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: verpies on July 28, 2015, 01:57:31 AM
And if the motor is configured correctly,then we can increase the speed,increase the load,and decrease power consumption.
Open case demo modle will be done by weekend,and posted here. ;)
If you want to be rigorous then measure the input power this way.
Output power can be filtered out with that circuit, too.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 04:28:57 AM
That is correct.
And if the motor is configured correctly,then we can increase the speed,increase the load,and decrease power consumption.
Open case demo modle will be done by weekend,and posted here. ;)
There goes the weekend... and the footy
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 04:32:58 AM
1. If an electric motor is spinning freely at its max RPM with no load on it, there is _no_ extra torque available from the motor! All the mechanical power produced goes into overcoming bearing friction, brush friction, windage, electromagnetic effects, etc. If you put a load on it, the speed will change, and the power consumption will change, until a new equilibrium is reached.

At least the motor in my demonstration is actually driving a mechanical load; the tape flag is moving quite a bit of air.

2. Is electricity being "produced"? That all depends on what you mean by "produced". It's not coming out of thin air! Nor is it coming from "magnetic plasma" or other fictitious sources in these experiments. The changing magnetic fields of the armature, produced by the brushes energizing segments in combination with the motion of the armature itself, "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils, in perfect accordance with Faraday's Law of Induction. The faster the magnetic fields _change_ through the stator coils, the greater the induction effect.
I hate to bring up PL book but he does talk about BEMF as Pin. Isn't that what this is. You've found a way to use this extra Pin rather than work against it? You draw current which causes more Pin in the form of BEMF. Just my simple logic.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MileHigh on July 28, 2015, 04:45:07 AM
That is correct.
And if the motor is configured correctly,then we can increase the speed,increase the load,and decrease power consumption.
Open case demo modle will be done by weekend,and posted here. ;)

It all sounds great but the bogeyman is still the waste heat.  It sounds like in all likelihood what you are doing is reducing the proportion of waste heat.  That's commendable and is a good effort, but let's keep in mind that it is not remarkable.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 05:14:34 AM
It all sounds great but the bogeyman is still the waste heat.  It sounds like in all likelihood what you are doing is reducing the proportion of waste heat.  That's commendable and is a good effort, but let's keep in mind that it is not remarkable.
Can we calculate the BEMF as power in? What happens to the heat in that situation? Welcome back
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 28, 2015, 05:19:16 AM
Good evening MileHigh

You can post but keep in mind your posts won't be visible until Stefan or myself approve them.
The unfortunate part about this is, if both of us are away for some time and there's a lot of posts, your post may not be seen, mostly if it moves on to another page or two.

To everyone, I've been busy with preparation for an event that is taking place this weekend. I will only be able to check the topic on late evening (EST) from Friday to Sunday.

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 05:33:04 AM
Good evening MileHigh

You can post but keep in mind your posts won't be visible until Stefan or myself approve them.
The unfortunate part about this is, if both of us are away for some time and there's a lot of posts, your post may not be seen, mostly if it moves on to another page or two.

To everyone, I've been busy with preparation for an event that is taking place this weekend. I will only be able to check the topic on late evening (EST) from Friday to Sunday.

Regards

Luc
Same event as Brad :) ?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 28, 2015, 05:44:57 AM
My two cents:


An electric motor, properly understood, is a reactive power device. If it is pulsed, then the effect can be the same as Tesla's earthquake machine. Instead of an upside down pendulum, as in Tesla's case, we have a "continuous" pendulum in the form of a circle.
Now we absolutely know that we can get many times more reactive power than real power in an electronic device. The trick is in getting some reactive power out without affecting the input.
Think about it.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 28, 2015, 05:47:56 AM
Same event as Brad :) ?

No, unfortunately not!... it's a different kind of event, the kind where they don't let you play with magnets and sparks :(

I'll do my best to check what will go down... or is it up ::)

Regards

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MileHigh on July 28, 2015, 06:26:10 AM
Can we calculate the BEMF as power in? What happens to the heat in that situation? Welcome back

No unfortunately not.  You can look at the BEMF as "recycled" power in.  In other words, let's say you measure 10 watts power consumption by the motor.  Let's suppose that one of those 10 watts becomes a repeating BEMF spike of a certain amount of energy.  So you have already measured and accounted for that BEMF spike in your input power measurement.

Keeping things simple, let's just say that you get one BEMF spike per second, and you use that train of spikes to charge a capacitor.  Since your know that the input power that is allocated towards the BEMF spike is one watt, than each BEMF spike contains one Joule of energy.

You can say that the motor is temporarily storing one Joule of energy per second of input power in the inductance of the motor windings.  That means that that one Joule of energy per second did nothing to make the motor turn, you can't get double time from the same energy that becomes the BEMF spike.

It suggests the classic question that very few people ask or try to answer:  My motor is outputting BEMF spikes, what is the average power that those spikes are running at?  Or you can say, how much energy is there in each spike?  You know the spike repetition rate from your scope.  That means you can work the measurement two possible ways:  You can measure the average spike power and then derive the energy per spike.  Or, you can measure the energy per spike and derive the average spike power.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 06:53:35 AM
been fiddling with the brushes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsBH9ylic74
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Farmhand on July 28, 2015, 09:40:21 AM
I think in a motor we "can" get back some forward emf produced from the collapsing magnetic field of the coil = Inductive kickback or "Back emf".

I think we must first overcome the Counter emf or "Back emf" the input sees.

I think the best practice is to refer to the energy released by the coil after the intended work is done as something different than the Counter emf the input see's.

In a simple switched coil (pulse motor) with recovery diode situation as an example, the counter emf that restricts input current is I think "backward emf"
whereas the emf produced from the coil when the magnetic field collapses is I think "forward emf".

The energy regained during the process is always a fraction or a part of the energy that is input, and if that energy is then output as electrical energy then it is simply is not output as any other type of energy.

It goes in once and it comes out once, either as waste or as intended mechanical output or as reclaimed electrical energy not wasted or output as mechanical energy. All are parts or fractions of the input energy.
..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: ramset on July 28, 2015, 10:15:18 AM
I think the heat being generated  should be added to the claimed cop
Don't,t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Caloric measurements should be a part of every experiment ,this thing makes a ton of heat
DONT MISS THAT.......you can run for a month but if your not measuring all that heat....??
How much heat is it making 5...10...20 watts ...???

Did somebody say
TPU ??

This needs much more research and development.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MileHigh on July 28, 2015, 10:58:56 AM

I am not questioning what your post, I am simply curious why your use of the terms Back EMF overlap with the definition of Inductive Kickback"...Its clear that when dealing with a motor we aren't just dealing with the effects associated with commutation (spikes).....we also must contend with the very real induced voltage(s) both in the armature and in the stator, the prior being of immediate interest owing to its effect on consumption.   Would you be so kind as to elaborate as to why your interest is on the spikes instead of induced potentials associated with current limiting, and why you choose to use the term back EMF where inductive kickback would be more applicable.

Just a quote I grabbed where Back EMF is discussed, note, there is no mentioning of a spike, this leads me in the most cautious manner to assume that the mechanism for generating the spike is not "immediately" associated with Back EMF, as Back EMF is defined above, and with that, it becomes necessary to differentiate.

Regards

What you say makes perfect sense.  If I rewrote it I would use the terms "inductive kickback pulse" or "flyback pulse" instead of BEMF in order to be clearer.  I will try to keep that in mind for the future.  I think the message still got through though because Tinman and Luc will discussing collecting pulses off of the motor from PWM excitation when the MOSFET turns off or possibly from the brushes themselves.  I assumed that was what Jimboot was referring to.

For what it's worth I normally use the term CEMF for what's going on in the armature.  That is also legitimately referred to as BEMF like you indicated.   And Farmhand also has a valid point in referring to the flyback pulse as forward EMF.

MileHigh
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: norman6538 on July 28, 2015, 01:38:27 PM
Gotoluc, this video intreagues me with how little it takes to free the
metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM

Would it be possible to then check and see how many joules are
collectable from the reapplied magnetic field after the pulse stops?

What you have is a circular version of the Kunnel patent from Germany that was
said to work but not as draw in the patent which was only straight.

Norman





Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 28, 2015, 02:04:24 PM
@Tinselkoala,

One of your fumbelings:

 "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils,

Try generate!
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: T-1000 on July 28, 2015, 02:34:57 PM
Gotoluc, this video intreagues me with how little it takes to free the
metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM)


Some education videos for understanding on what is going on there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y252LZt9tqw
http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Inventors/Jack-W-Hildenbrand/MagnetExtraPower-1.wmv

And its wide use back in 1960s - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_amplifier
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: poynt99 on July 28, 2015, 02:36:42 PM
Same event as Brad :) ?
Is that the pulse motor build-off by any chance? Got a link?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 28, 2015, 02:40:41 PM
@Tinselkoala,

One of your fumbelings:

 "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils,

Try generate!

Synchro-be have your self.
lets not turn this thread into another !pick on everything! thread.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 28, 2015, 02:51:06 PM
Is that the pulse motor build-off by any chance? Got a link?

No poynt-not the pulse motor build off.
The PMBO is normally in October-depends on when Russ is ready.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 03:28:06 PM
Just been messing around with my rotor http://youtu.be/4tpr1whM-QM
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 28, 2015, 03:28:11 PM
@Tinselkoala,

One of your fumbelings:

 "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils,

Try generate!

Synchro1 I agree with TinMan that this is not the thread to do this in.

I'll leave it as an example for others to know what's not tolerated.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 28, 2015, 03:33:15 PM
Just been messing around with my rotor http://youtu.be/4tpr1whM-QM (http://youtu.be/4tpr1whM-QM)

Great experiment mate!

thanks for sharing your results

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 28, 2015, 03:36:02 PM
Gotoluc, this video intreagues me with how little it takes to free the
metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM)

Would it be possible to then check and see how many joules are
collectable from the reapplied magnetic field after the pulse stops?

What you have is a circular version of the Kunnel patent from Germany that was
said to work but not as draw in the patent which was only straight.

Norman

Yes Norman, all this and more will be done in time. I'm just a little limited with time for the rest of this week.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 28, 2015, 03:43:23 PM
Just been messing around with my rotor http://youtu.be/4tpr1whM-QM
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 03:51:01 PM

Coughcnutcough
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 28, 2015, 07:02:14 PM
Just been messing around with my rotor http://youtu.be/4tpr1whM-QM

Dear Jim.

Remember Crocodile Dundee ?    ;)  :)

http://youtu.be/IZiP0JoMub0

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TheGeneralHackr on July 28, 2015, 08:23:18 PM
This may or may not be related I honestly dont know if this video is real but if it is it seems to be using roughly the same design as this generator research https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB1Wtve7aug
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Vortex1 on July 28, 2015, 08:39:52 PM
Dear Jim.

Remember Crocodile Dundee ?    ;) :)

http://youtu.be/IZiP0JoMub0 (http://youtu.be/IZiP0JoMub0)

Cheers Grum.

Dear Grum

Looks like micrometer adjustments are needed for your brushes. Could we see a schematic of your setup e.g. is there a diode in the lamp path? latest cap value etc.

Thanks
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 28, 2015, 08:57:28 PM
Dear Grum

Looks like micrometer adjustments are needed for your brushes. Could we see a schematic of your setup e.g. is there a diode in the lamp path? latest cap value etc.

Thanks

Dear Vortex1.

Yes indeed you DO need a steady hand !!  :)

There is nothing involved just a 1.8 W 12 V lamp and a non polarised motor capacitor at 30 micro F. Just one Field coil, ( I managed to trash the other one ) who's inductance is 11.45 mH.

But I think, there's still something missing !!   ;)

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 28, 2015, 10:07:43 PM
Dear Jim.

Remember Crocodile Dundee ?    ;) :)

http://youtu.be/IZiP0JoMub0 (http://youtu.be/IZiP0JoMub0)

Cheers Grum.

Thanks for sharing  Grum!   you sure are getting closer every time. Now you've got to get that second stator coil shorting.
I really like how clean looking your resonance sine wave gets at times.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 28, 2015, 10:27:48 PM
Dear Vortex1.

Yes indeed you DO need a steady hand !!  :)

There is nothing involved just a 1.8 W 12 V lamp and a non polarised motor capacitor at 30 micro F. Just one Field coil, ( I managed to trash the other one ) who's inductance is 11.45 mH.

But I think, there's still something missing !!   ;)

Cheers Grum.

Dear Grum,

did I not also hear you say you had modified the rotor commutator and removed every 2nd coil?


Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Grumage on July 28, 2015, 11:25:14 PM
Dear Grum,

did I not also hear you say you had modified the rotor commutator and removed every 2nd coil?


Thanks

Luc
r

Dear Luc.

My apologies to both you and Vortex1, yes the Armature has been modified. Actually not a very difficult task as mine were simply looped over and crimped I only had to solder one pair, I assumed them to be the start and finish turns.

Cheers Grum.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 28, 2015, 11:37:19 PM
r

Dear Luc.

My apologies to both you and Vortex1, yes the Armature has been modified. Actually not a very difficult task as mine were simply looped over and crimped I only had to solder one pair, I assumed them to be the start and finish turns.

Cheers Grum.
Nice work mate, I was really surprised to get a glow on such low rpm. You've given me a few ideas for later. I think your Dundee reference would be better directed at the size of your watts  ;D
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 29, 2015, 12:52:58 PM
After some thought,i have decided to give an idea a go here.
This one im calling the chop phase converter.

First video is just to show what parts i will be using for my build.
What im trying to achieve is to be able remove the circuitry from the rotary transformer,and use only PMs as the stator fields.

The goal-to be able to draw electrical power from the converter, while increasing the mechanical output torque from the converter-->all while reducing the required input power consumption.

Note: these cheap chinese motors are terrible-no quality control what so ever over there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5s2q8l8e04
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 29, 2015, 01:26:45 PM
@ Luc

I was wondering if you could clear something up for us here.
Some time back on energetic forum,i remember i big hoohaa over the water spark plug/plasma ignition system. I believed you patented the setup,and Arron and the crew were none to happy about that.
Is this the way it went down,or are there other things to it we didnt get told?

Cheers
Brad
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: norman6538 on July 29, 2015, 02:11:53 PM
This may or may not be related I honestly dont know if this video is real but if it is it seems to be using roughly the same design as this generator research https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB1Wtve7aug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB1Wtve7aug)

Does anyone know who this Mark Belanger is.
or where he lives.

He is new to me.

Norman

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 29, 2015, 03:32:56 PM
http://youtu.be/wt9HRXtSB3k Just a curiosity I saw this evening
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: ramset on July 29, 2015, 04:31:09 PM
TinMan
Yes it would be good to understand [given present circumstances] what transpired back when everybody was working
on the "open source" water sparkplug threads
eventually this [below] happened however there was much controversy leading up to this patent about whose it was and whose names etc etc etc  and that of course is a side note to the other issue of patenting supposed open source work, i believe an explanation was offered By Luc but I am unable to find it here ATM ??


http://www.google.com.ar/patents/US8555867

time muddies memories it would be good for Luc to make a benchmark statement here about this and clear the air.

I know Luc had said he is very bizzy with an event of some sort during this week..

respectfully
Chet K
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 29, 2015, 04:45:45 PM
After some thought,i have decided to give an idea a go here.
This one im calling the chop phase converter.

First video is just to show what parts i will be using for my build.
What im trying to achieve is to be able remove the circuitry from the rotary transformer,and use only PMs as the stator fields.

The goal-to be able to draw electrical power from the converter, while increasing the mechanical output torque from the converter-->all while reducing the required input power consumption.

Note: these cheap chinese motors are terrible-no quality control what so ever over there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5s2q8l8e04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5s2q8l8e04)


You're an excellent teacher thanks.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 29, 2015, 06:22:04 PM
Here's "Lasersaber's" modified Universal Motor video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43lxNJjIKD8
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on July 29, 2015, 10:09:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g31TpPrBDuA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g31TpPrBDuA)


Please watch this video, because it explains why free energy is such a no-no topic, (right at the end).


Please bear in mind that the free energy suppressors and disinformation agents are unaware of the agenda.


So this posting is also to inform not only the genuine free energy researchers, 


but also the opposition who,"know not what they do".


So make yourselves a nice cup of tea or coffee and watch this 20 minute video and understand why.


I have done hundreds of hours of independent research to confirm the contents of the above video as genuine.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 29, 2015, 11:41:59 PM
@ Luc

I was wondering if you could clear something up for us here.
Some time back on energetic forum,i remember i big hoohaa over the water spark plug/plasma ignition system. I believed you patented the setup,and Arron and the crew were none to happy about that.
Is this the way it went down,or are there other things to it we didnt get told?

Cheers
Brad

Hi Brad,

it doesn't surprise me you're asking about the water spark circuit as I've been thinking about it as well.  I could sense it may fit in what you're doing.

You're also right about how it went down. It's not at all how Arron made it appear.
I was happy to see people finally cough on to him with Eric Dollard fiasco.

At this time I don't have enough to to go over it but I'll get back to you with the details and all can get the details.

Thanks mate

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 29, 2015, 11:49:16 PM
Does anyone know who this Mark Belanger is.
or where he lives.

He is new to me.

Norman



My guess is, he is french Canadian like myself. I think the spelling is Marc and not Mark. Both Marc and Belanger are french names that are very comment in Canada.

He claims he has a bucking coil thing in a box that does magic.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 29, 2015, 11:52:55 PM
http://youtu.be/wt9HRXtSB3k (http://youtu.be/wt9HRXtSB3k) Just a curiosity I saw this evening

Very interesting Jim 8)

Thanks for sharing

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 30, 2015, 12:37:42 PM
finally got the dyson working on around 5watts whilst lighting the lamp quite brightly. Unloaded it was about 12 watts. Didn't manage to reattach the rotor wires to the alternate segments. Buggered one rotor up which I will liberate for a chop phase converter.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 30, 2015, 06:39:56 PM
so what is happening to the motionless electrical generator ideas...can i post my brilliant
invention here..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 30, 2015, 07:38:35 PM
hi we must be all very busy rewinding and winding and rewinding. first it is great but noisy,
what i have learnt from this is for a meg to work, one needs motion of electromagnetic
field through the meg core..not just pulsing magnetic field..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on July 30, 2015, 09:08:08 PM
hi we must be all very busy rewinding and winding and rewinding. first it is great but noisy,
what i have learnt from this is for a meg to work, one needs motion of electromagnetic
field through the meg core..not just pulsing magnetic field..

The MEG is on topic. Let's see it!
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on July 31, 2015, 05:19:34 AM
so what is happening to the motionless electrical generator ideas...can i post my brilliant
invention here..

Yes, you can post your brilliant invention here.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 31, 2015, 01:53:26 PM
This the dyson working on the modified rotor coils at around 5 watts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFyzn9CoCDY THe lamp is rated to 100ma and I got it up to around 80ma
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on July 31, 2015, 02:27:44 PM
So here is my brilliant invention.. i receive with joy and release it with joy..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 31, 2015, 05:16:35 PM
In the video below,i am testing the split phase converter theory in a solid state version.
This will be much the same as my solid state build later on,but this setup was used to test the mechanical version of the split phase converter. As it turns out,it actually works better than i thought it would.

I have also wound the drive coils onto the rotor for the mechanical version,and i will have a video of that up shortly.

But for now-here is the solid state test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oBl-oBTmXA
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on July 31, 2015, 06:34:12 PM
In the video below,i am testing the split phase converter theory in a solid state version.
This will be much the same as my solid state build later on,but this setup was used to test the mechanical version of the split phase converter. As it turns out,it actually works better than i thought it would.

I have also wound the drive coils onto the rotor for the mechanical version,and i will have a video of that up shortly.

But for now-here is the solid state test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oBl-oBTmXA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oBl-oBTmXA)
Got my gear today I hope run this experiment tomorrow
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on July 31, 2015, 08:10:54 PM
First run of the rewound rotor without the generating coils.
Im quite surprised as to how much torque the motor has with such few windings,and small wire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue8wR-whBmk
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on August 01, 2015, 02:44:10 AM
First run of the rewound rotor without the generating coils.
Im quite surprised as to how much torque the motor has with such few windings,and small wire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue8wR-whBmk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue8wR-whBmk)
I wonder how much that innovation alone would save the electric motor industry.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Vortex1 on August 01, 2015, 01:56:37 PM
First run of the rewound rotor without the generating coils.
Im quite surprised as to how much torque the motor has with such few windings,and small wire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue8wR-whBmk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue8wR-whBmk)

Tinman, you have a lot of patience and skill to be able to wind those armatures, and keep track of the winding patterns. I wonder if there isn't an easy way to depict the winding pattern by numbering all the armature segments (wire slots) then  providing the wind data and commutator connections in some kind of tabular form, so we can duplicate the pattern.

Also it would be interesting to devise a set of test curves of torque, speed and power use on the same graph to compare a modified vs unmodified motor in order to depict the shifts of each that we guess would occur. (see example DC motor graph). Of course if the intention is to produce something different than a motor, a graph of motor characteristics would not apply. So I ask is there an intention for the rewinding other than to produce a more efficient motor?

I see your scope shots of the modified (every other) commutator connections provides time for the armature field (hence induced field) to collapse with a 50% duty cycle till the next segment "fires".

The scope shot of the unmodified seems to depict a sawtooth current pattern with very little collapse time except for brush noise.

Good work as usual, be interesting to see what comes next.

Kind Regards
Vortex1
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on August 04, 2015, 12:10:35 AM
@ Luc

I was wondering if you could clear something up for us here.
Some time back on energetic forum,i remember i big hoohaa over the water spark plug/plasma ignition system. I believed you patented the setup,and Arron and the crew were none to happy about that.
Is this the way it went down,or are there other things to it we didnt get told?

Cheers
Brad

Okay, I'll do my best to explain the basic events without going into too many details but I'll cover enough so those who don't know about the water spark circuit can understand.

On June 25 2008 while experimenting on plasma spark I happen to combine a high voltage of an ignition coil with a low voltage of a capacitor.
The combination of these two with a high voltage blocking diode on the capacitor created a very enhanced spark which has an even greater effect if sprayed with a fine mist of water. The effect is more light and a very load cracking sound which I thought could be a dissociation of hydrogen oxygen of the water mist.
At about 6pm EST on June 26th I started a topic on the Overunity forum and titled it: " URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE"
http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone-to-share/#.VbqZBEb_rIU (http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone-to-share/#.VbqZBEb_rIU)

Please note the Overunity topic is dated June 27th but notice the time is 12:01am which is Berlin time, so 6 hours ahead of my Eastern Standard Time. So the information was publicly shared at 6pm EST on June 26th
Here is the 1st YouTube demo video which is correctly dated June 26th.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs)

It's important to know the date the information was first publicly shared and my intent.
On my first video above please listen to my message between 4:23 and 4:52 and ignore the theories I shared.
Message: what I'm doing is, I want everyone to start thinking about this (circuit) and trying to get this effect and Improve it. I'm not the best in electronics, it's not really my field. So I'm posting this so people can start working on it and get this working. So let me show you what I've got so far.

One week later on July 4th 2008, Arron of the Energetic Forum started a topic and titled it "Water Sparkplug"
http://www.energeticforum.com/water-fuel/2242-water-sparkplug.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/water-fuel/2242-water-sparkplug.html)

On July 13th 2008 after participants suggestions of better diodes and me also using a single pole double throw relay to charge and discharge the capacitor, the effect was much better then the first video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE)

On September 9th  2008: Arron posted a video with Peter Lindemann demonstrating the effect of the spark which was titled: "Peter Lindemann's Replication of Arron's circuit based on Luc's (gotoluc) method"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw)
Notice some recognition towards me in the video and title. Remember this when you read the below.

Around the beginning of April 2009, I was contacted by two individuals, one called Arvind and the other Kathik from a business they started in the US called Aquapulser.
They liked the high voltage diode blocked high current capacitor spark effect so much they decided to start a business and manufactured a ready made plug and play device so consumers could purchase. I was very happy they had done this as that would help to get it out faster and wished them the very best.
They told me they had been following the topic on each forum and from their research considered me to be the originator of the high voltage diode blocked high current capacitor spark effect.
They offered me a free sample of their device in recognition. They told me they couldn't afford to give more out because of their large start up investment which I understood.
Later on they contacted me again and suggested to patent the circuit since a bigger corporation could possibly patent it (even though it was open source) and could then prevent Aquapulser to manufacturing it.
They had a valid point as open source information is not as protected as some may think. So we had a written agreement that they can hold the patent only to prevent big corporations to use it and Aquapulser could not interfere with the open source community. Aquapulser paid for all patent and attorney costs.
Once again I wished them success and didn't ask for any profit as I admired their efforts and wanted them to have the ability to re-gain the huge expenses of the patent costs.
The patent included my name as one of the inventors along with Arvind and Karthik. This way they couldn't sell it without my consent because of the written joint ownership agreement. So even though I didn't wish to profit on Aquapulser sales, I was part owner of the patent document which secure it.
This ended up being good, because in early 2011 the two owners of Aquapulser were in disagreement. Karthik didn't agree with Arvind's new change of direction. He though Arvind was considering the sale the patent for profit and felt (rightfully so) this was not what we had agreed on.
Karthik contacted me and suggested we combine our ownership of the patent document to gain control of it and then together we could agree to dissolve it.
I had to trust Karthik's plan and be sure he would follow through once the first step was done.  Karthik followed through as he promised. He also took care of all the legal details and the original patent was dissolved. However, "for some reason", it coincided Aaron found out there was a patent filed and on the Energetic Forum he started to publicly accuse me of steeling his circuit and so on.
I mostly ignored him as I knew my intent was good and was of no profit or benefit to me.
Then Aaron joined forces with Arvind and demanded a new patent be created and that there was no reason to have my name as inventor because it had nothing to do with my circuit.
However, the patent attorney did not see it the way Aaron did as I'm sure he had done some research on the first patent (before putting it together) which is now dissolved.
The patent attorney tried to reason with Aaron. However, after a few weeks and so many harassing emails from Aaron the patent attorney quit and said he would not ever get involved again unless there was a prior agreement reached.

What I didn't mention is, during the months this was going on, I was overseas in South Africa for 6 months at my travel expense and making no money helping a mission feeding and clothing the poor. So it was quite a challenge to get internet access and deal with all this fiasco.
Anyways, back to the story, Karthik said he would support me on what ever decision I made.
I was about to give it away because I just don't care for this kind of stuff but something in me said don't let this guy have his way and hold firm as inventor. In the end we all agreed to refile the patent with Aaron's name on the inventors list. This was the best I could do then to just walk away and let Arvind and Aaron file for a new Patent.

Last time Karthik and I were contacted by Arvind, he wanted us to pay for our share of the new patent. We both replied we didn't have any funds, so I don't know and don't need to know what the status is.

You be the judge of who's name should be on the patent!
Aaron's argument was the circuit the Aquapulser Team used in the patent was closer to the circuit he shared then mine. This is true as my circuit was basic and as I mentioned my electronic skills was minimal and why I did my switching by hand on the first video and 2 weeks later I used a relay. However, both circuits are based on the same effect and I think this is what the Aquapulser team had originally considered prior to the patent.

One way or the other I can tell you that profit or recognition are of no interest to me. I have never profited one cent from anything I've shared or ask for recognition and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
It's always been zero in and $1,000. out of my pocket to pay for supplies and equipment.
Also, look at any of my video's, none of them have advertising.
I have over 950,000 combined views and 2,500 subscribers. Would this suggest I'm in it to make profit?
So why don't I want profit?... because I believe profit, gain and control is what causes poverty and prevents inventions to come out that would be for the good of all.
So my thoughts and way of life is, if I don't believe in it, why should I participate in it!

For you profit oriented people. You may want to reflect on how those actions will help others. As taking more for yourself then others have is contrary to the flow of nature or the universe.
If that doesn't make you think then, tell me which person was able to bring something from this world when their end comes?
Better chances for those who have helped others will be seeding for the next then ones money piled in the bank.

Luc

PS, looks like Arvind has continued the business and I still wish him success.
Aquapulser web site: http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/ (http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/)
Aquapulser Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/ecoignition/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/ecoignition/videos)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on August 04, 2015, 12:51:37 AM
How was a _valid_ patent issued anyway, since it is very clear that the information in it was disclosed publicly, years before the application was filed? I've read the patent and I don't see anything novel in it, that was not already disclosed publicly in many different locations long before the application was filed.  The basic idea is the same as the well-known TAG, or triggered spark gap, where a small spark at high voltage is used to ionize a gap which then allows a greater current at lower voltage from a bank of heavy capacitors to discharge through the gap.

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on August 04, 2015, 01:23:44 AM
How was a _valid_ patent issued anyway, since it is very clear that the information in it was disclosed publicly, years before the application was filed? I've read the patent and I don't see anything novel in it, that was not already disclosed publicly in many different locations long before the application was filed.  The basic idea is the same as the well-known TAG, or triggered spark gap, where a small spark at high voltage is used to ionize a gap which then allows a greater current at lower voltage from a bank of heavy capacitors to discharge through the gap.

You're probably right TK
I'm just not interested in putting energy in this kind of thing!... no OU possibility there ;D
So much time was wasted in the above patent story. I'm not going there again, no matter how good the story is.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MarkE on August 04, 2015, 01:52:48 AM
How was a _valid_ patent issued anyway, since it is very clear that the information in it was disclosed publicly, years before the application was filed? I've read the patent and I don't see anything novel in it, that was not already disclosed publicly in many different locations long before the application was filed.  The basic idea is the same as the well-known TAG, or triggered spark gap, where a small spark at high voltage is used to ionize a gap which then allows a greater current at lower voltage from a bank of heavy capacitors to discharge through the gap.
A patent doesn't really mean that much until the holder attempts to use it against someone they claim infringes it.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on August 04, 2015, 03:31:50 AM
Tinman, you have a lot of patience and skill to be able to wind those armatures, and keep track of the winding patterns. I wonder if there isn't an easy way to depict the winding pattern by numbering all the armature segments (wire slots) then  providing the wind data and commutator connections in some kind of tabular form, so we can duplicate the pattern.

Also it would be interesting to devise a set of test curves of torque, speed and power use on the same graph to compare a modified vs unmodified motor in order to depict the shifts of each that we guess would occur. (see example DC motor graph). Of course if the intention is to produce something different than a motor, a graph of motor characteristics would not apply. So I ask is there an intention for the rewinding other than to produce a more efficient motor?

I see your scope shots of the modified (every other) commutator connections provides time for the armature field (hence induced field) to collapse with a 50% duty cycle till the next segment "fires".

The scope shot of the unmodified seems to depict a sawtooth current pattern with very little collapse time except for brush noise.

Good work as usual, be interesting to see what comes next.

Kind Regards
Vortex1
Vortex1
I will be building a dynamo today for load testing,so as we can take such measurements.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on August 04, 2015, 03:34:57 AM
Okay, I'll do my best to explain the basic events without going into too many details but I'll cover enough so those who don't know about the water spark circuit can understand.

On June 25 2008 while experimenting on plasma spark I happen to combine a high voltage of an ignition coil with a low voltage of a capacitor.
The combination of these two with a high voltage blocking diode on the capacitor created a very enhanced spark which has an even greater effect if sprayed with a fine mist of water. The effect is more light and a very load cracking sound which I thought could be a dissociation of hydrogen oxygen of the water mist.
At about 6pm EST on June 26th I started a topic on the Overunity forum and titled it: " URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE"
http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone-to-share/#.VbqZBEb_rIU (http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone-to-share/#.VbqZBEb_rIU)

Please note the Overunity topic is dated June 27th but notice the time is 12:01am which is Berlin time, so 6 hours ahead of my Eastern Standard Time. So the information was publicly shared at 6pm EST on June 26th
Here is the 1st YouTube demo video which is correctly dated June 26th.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs)

It's important to know the date the information was first publicly shared and my intent.
On my first video above please listen to my message between 4:23 and 4:52 and ignore the theories I shared.
Message: what I'm doing is, I want everyone to start thinking about this (circuit) and trying to get this effect and Improve it. I'm not the best in electronics, it's not really my field. So I'm posting this so people can start working on it and get this working. So let me show you what I've got so far.

One week later on July 4th 2008, Arron of the Energetic Forum started a topic and titled it "Water Sparkplug"
http://www.energeticforum.com/water-fuel/2242-water-sparkplug.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/water-fuel/2242-water-sparkplug.html)

On July 13th 2008 after participants suggestions of better diodes and me also using a single pole double throw relay to charge and discharge the capacitor, the effect was much better then the first video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE)

On September 9th  2008: Arron posted a video with Peter Lindemann demonstrating the effect of the spark which was titled: "Peter Lindemann's Replication of Arron's circuit based on Luc's (gotoluc) method"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw)
Notice some recognition towards me in the video and title. Remember this when you read the below.

Around the beginning of April 2009, I was contacted by two individuals, one called Arvind and the other Kathik from a business they started in the US called Aquapulser.
They liked the high voltage diode blocked high current capacitor spark effect so much they decided to start a business and manufactured a ready made plug and play device so consumers could purchase. I was very happy they had done this as that would help to get it out faster and wished them the very best.
They told me they had been following the topic on each forum and from their research considered me to be the originator of the high voltage diode blocked high current capacitor spark effect.
They offered me a free sample of their device in recognition. They told me they couldn't afford to give more out because of their large start up investment which I understood.
Later on they contacted me again and suggested to patent the circuit since a bigger corporation could possibly patent it (even though it was open source) and could then prevent Aquapulser to manufacturing it.
They had a valid point as open source information is not as protected as some may think. So we had a written agreement that they can hold the patent only to prevent big corporations to use it and Aquapulser could not interfere with the open source community. Aquapulser paid for all patent and attorney costs.
Once again I wished them success and didn't ask for any profit as I admired their efforts and wanted them to have the ability to re-gain the huge expenses of the patent costs.
The patent included my name as one of the inventors along with Arvind and Karthik. This way they couldn't sell it without my consent because of the written joint ownership agreement. So even though I didn't wish to profit on Aquapulser sales, I was part owner of the patent document which secure it.
This ended up being good, because in early 2011 the two owners of Aquapulser were in disagreement. Karthik didn't agree with Arvind's new change of direction. He though Arvind was considering the sale the patent for profit and felt (rightfully so) this was not what we had agreed on.
Karthik contacted me and suggested we combine our ownership of the patent document to gain control of it and then together we could agree to dissolve it.
I had to trust Karthik's plan and be sure he would follow through once the first step was done.  Karthik followed through as he promised. He also took care of all the legal details and the original patent was dissolved. However, "for some reason", it coincided Aaron found out there was a patent filed and on the Energetic Forum he started to publicly accuse me of steeling his circuit and so on.
I mostly ignored him as I knew my intent was good and was of no profit or benefit to me.
Then Aaron joined forces with Arvind and demanded a new patent be created and that there was no reason to have my name as inventor because it had nothing to do with my circuit.
However, the patent attorney did not see it the way Aaron did as I'm sure he had done some research on the first patent (before putting it together) which is now dissolved.
The patent attorney tried to reason with Aaron. However, after a few weeks and so many harassing emails from Aaron the patent attorney quit and said he would not ever get involved again unless there was a prior agreement reached.

What I didn't mention is, during the months this was going on, I was overseas in South Africa for 6 months at my travel expense and making no money helping a mission feeding and clothing the poor. So it was quite a challenge to get internet access and deal with all this fiasco.
Anyways, back to the story, Karthik said he would support me on what ever decision I made.
I was about to give it away because I just don't care for this kind of stuff but something in me said don't let this guy have his way and hold firm as inventor. In the end we all agreed to refile the patent with Aaron's name on the inventors list. This was the best I could do then to just walk away and let Arvind and Aaron file for a new Patent.

Last time Karthik and I were contacted by Arvind, he wanted us to pay for our share of the new patent. We both replied we didn't have any funds, so I don't know and don't need to know what the status is.

You be the judge of who's name should be on the patent!
Aaron's argument was the circuit the Aquapulser Team used in the patent was closer to the circuit he shared then mine. This is true as my circuit was basic and as I mentioned my electronic skills was minimal and why I did my switching by hand on the first video and 2 weeks later I used a relay. However, both circuits are based on the same effect and I think this is what the Aquapulser team had originally considered prior to the patent.

One way or the other I can tell you that profit or recognition are of no interest to me. I have never profited one cent from anything I've shared or ask for recognition and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
It's always been zero in and $1,000. out of my pocket to pay for supplies and equipment.
Also, look at any of my video's, none of them have advertising.
I have over 950,000 combined views and 2,500 subscribers. Would this suggest I'm in it to make profit?
So why don't I want profit?... because I believe profit, gain and control is what causes poverty and prevents inventions to come out that would be for the good of all.
So my thoughts and way of life is, if I don't believe in it, why should I participate in it!

For you profit oriented people. You may want to reflect on how those actions will help others. As taking more for yourself then others have is contrary to the flow of nature or the universe.
If that doesn't make you think then, tell me which person was able to bring something from this world when their end comes?
Better chances for those who have helped others will be seeding for the next then ones money piled in the bank.

Luc

PS, looks like Arvind has continued the business and I still wish him success.
Aquapulser web site: http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/ (http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/)
Aquapulser Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/ecoignition/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/ecoignition/videos)

It comes at no surprise that Aaron and Lindermann would take some one elses work,make a few mod's,and then claim it as there own -so as to make a profit from it.
It also shows how open source devices can be patented.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: a.king21 on August 04, 2015, 04:22:40 AM
It comes at no surprise that Aaron and Lindermann would take some one elses work,make a few mod's,and then claim it as there own -so as to make a profit from it.
It also shows how open source devices can be patented.
My understanding is that if you were to show the patent office in question the open source information, then they would have no choice but to consider revocation.
The question is does anyone want to devote the next 6 months of their time to fight this.
This link might help:  http://www.energeticforum.com/214716-post1486.html

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on August 04, 2015, 07:29:38 AM
OR you patent something related to the device. i.e. find a manufacturer who needs your device and provisionally patent say something around the way to manufacture it. Then go to the big players and let them file and pay you for the related patent. There's a good podcast on it. I'll dig it up.




Here you go
http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/how-to-get-paid-for-your-ideas/ I'm surprised you blokes don't do more of this.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: nelsonrochaa on August 04, 2015, 02:20:14 PM
My understanding is that if you were to show the patent office in question the open source information, then they would have no choice but to consider revocation.
The question is does anyone want to devote the next 6 months of their time to fight this.
This link might help:  http://www.energeticforum.com/214716-post1486.html

Hi King21,
 i think to protect  the opensource rights  you have to register GPL of opensource . This will permit that any person that use this information even opensource may pay a royalties to the author .
About the other patents , is a problem when is not a mundial patent but is so expensive to make and maintain because is only valid for a year , :) is more like a suck € machine :).
My advice is register in GPL opensource and maybe can receive some contribution of royalties if there is the choice of author.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: ramset on August 04, 2015, 04:04:44 PM
Thinking that we have open source rights on a suppressed or restricted technology is a pipe dream,

PERIOD

Applying for any sort of protection thru government agencies whether patents or other venues is like handing a man a stick to beat you with.

too many bruised inventors around....

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: synchro1 on August 04, 2015, 04:08:38 PM
Capturing output directly from a fluctuating spark plug "Plasma Field" by igniting the water inside a pickup coil would achieve O.U. Wraping the wire coils over a glass tube might help insulate the copper from the high heat. Injecting a tiny amount of water mist directly into the output coil core would fuel the reaction. The "Electro Chemical" plasma transition event alone produces a magnetic field that generates electricity when it collapses. This resembles the "Keshe" reactor.

The spark plug can run in from one side and slide toward the center of the glass lined coil core, and the mist injector can face it from the opposite end. This should generate enough power to run itself, supplied just by the water.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on August 04, 2015, 07:15:17 PM
Hi All,

This may be half baked but looking at general motor 101 design we know that when a wire is subjected to a uniform magnetic field it deforms the field around it.

If the wire is held stationary and briefly pulsed the vectors add to one side of the field while subtracting from the other based on the magnitude/current and falloff.

Attached are some basic references from motor design books.

So here is an interesting thought place a fixed copper bus bar through the middle of two fixed magnets with fixed pickup coils on the top and bottom. Then the bus bar is pulsed with bi-phasic DC or straight AC to shift the field back and forth through the coils.

I've been doing some tests with a fixed coil in a uniform field but haven't tried the bus bar geometry yet. Attached is a picture of one current test setup, it's two 6"x2" ceramic magnets with a fixed coil and smaller pickup coils(6) in the middle. It's powered from 6x 3000F ultra caps in series(500F) charged to 14vdc, currently dc pulsed with a irlz44n. The switching frequency, generated/adjustable by the Arduino, is around 630hz in this example, with two output coils in parallel going out to a 27watt Ultra-Tow led floodlight. This version has a poor output but testing continues.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Farmhand on August 05, 2015, 12:55:37 AM
What you say makes perfect sense.  If I rewrote it I would use the terms "inductive kickback pulse" or "flyback pulse" instead of BEMF in order to be clearer.  I will try to keep that in mind for the future.  I think the message still got through though because Tinman and Luc will discussing collecting pulses off of the motor from PWM excitation when the MOSFET turns off or possibly from the brushes themselves.  I assumed that was what Jimboot was referring to.

For what it's worth I normally use the term CEMF for what's going on in the armature.  That is also legitimately referred to as BEMF like you indicated.   And Farmhand also has a valid point in referring to the flyback pulse as forward EMF.

MileHigh

Well it goes without saying that when people refer to Forward emf as Back emf some will get confused by that, naturally. I sometimes refer to the "inductive kickback" as "Inductive energy release" which I think is valid also. I don't think "Inductive kick back" is a very technical or scientific term is it ? A better term would be returned emf.

Better in my opinion to refer to Counter emf as Cemf and the flyback as flyback or Returned emf or Inductive energy return or anything except Back emf. But if people want to confuse each other then we should just keep using Back emf to refer to Forward emf.  :)

..

.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Farmhand on August 05, 2015, 01:11:52 AM
Thinking that we have open source rights on a suppressed or restricted technology is a pipe dream,

PERIOD

Applying for any sort of protection thru government agencies whether patents or other venues is like handing a man a stick to beat you with.

too many bruised inventors around....

Inventing things and patenting them is a legal way to make money and it works. But it is an act of asking for permission to prosecute others for using your inventions to make money without your permission, enforcing the patent is not an easy feat in itself. Nor should it be.

The way I see it if I don't ask then I won't get refused. I make it a rule to never ask the Authorities for permission to do something, then there is no refusal.

..
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Dave45 on August 05, 2015, 03:10:13 AM
Well it goes without saying that when people refer to Forward emf as Back emf some will get confused by that, naturally. I sometimes refer to the "inductive kickback" as "Inductive energy release" which I think is valid also. I don't think "Inductive kick back" is a very technical or scientific term is it ? A better term would be returned emf.

Better in my opinion to refer to Counter emf as Cemf and the flyback as flyback or Returned emf or Inductive energy return or anything except Back emf. But if people want to confuse each other then we should just keep using Back emf to refer to Forward emf.  :)

..

.

So dont you think Cemf turns into flyback when the magnetic field collapses.

Or am I missing something ,,, please explain
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Magluvin on August 05, 2015, 04:14:43 AM
So dont you think Cemf turns into flyback when the magnetic field collapses.

Or am I missing something ,,, please explain

What he is saying is there is quite a bit of confusion of terms when it comes to this.

Reverse emf, counter emf, back emf, all seem to say that there is a reverse voltage coming from the coil when the 'forward' input is removed. Flyback is a whole other thing that has to do with cathode ray tubes, old tvs, oscilloscopes.

But in 'most' cases, when the input is removed from the coil, the field collapse causes current in the same direction through the coil as the current that was input.

Reverse emf typically is what happens when an inductor is being charged, building a field. The mag field of each winding in reference to every other winding induces the other windings to produce a reverse emf than the direction of the input emf. This is why it takes time for the coil to flow max current, because the input emf has to overcome the self induced emf during that time period. Once at max current flow and max field build, there is no more expanding flux to cut the windings thus zero reverse emf and full current is allowed to flow.

Now, I do have a theory that there can be a reverse output from the coil when the forward input is removed, but the switch would have to perfect or maybe near perfect in its ability to fully turn off in the presence of the high voltage developed by the collapse. I think that the coils self capacitance can cause the coil to oscillate, probably at very high freq, and when the field collapses and there is no path for the forward current to go when the perfect switch turns off, the voltage build on the coil end leads is basically being stored in the coils capacitance. When that voltage peaks, then current is reversed in the coil and able to say flow back to the source through say a diode in reverse across the switch.

There may be circumstances where a not so perfect switch could do the job.

In Circuit sim, you can do the experiment. On the first circuit shown when you bring up the applet, delete the cap, wire and resistor to the left of the inductor, then connect a diode across the switch with 2 wires. Also reduce the resistor below in the circuit to be more realistic to what the inductor might be in ohms.

The switch in this case is pretty much a perfect switch. When it is off, there is no hv from the coil collapse going anywhere, so the collapse current ends up after a half cycle of oscillation, going 'back' to the source through the diode in a reverse direction than what was input. So with the diode and a switch that can withstand the emf pressure of the coil collapse, I think there can be an actual reverse emf from the coil.

Possibly a Tesla rotary switch can disconnect fast enough to overcome field collapse voltage of a charged coil.

Mags
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MarkE on August 05, 2015, 04:37:35 AM
It is all the same stuff:  A changing magnetic field perpendicular to conductors induces a voltage across the conductor.  In modern, efficient power supplies and motor drives the BEMF voltage is closely limited to the supply voltage and circuit common through the use of fast switching elements and careful circuit layout.

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Magluvin on August 05, 2015, 05:02:45 AM
It is all the same stuff:  A changing magnetic field perpendicular to conductors induces a voltage across the conductor.  In modern, efficient power supplies and motor drives the BEMF voltage is closely limited to the supply voltage and circuit common through the use of fast switching elements and careful circuit layout.
Well converters and switching supplies are different than the simple circuit I suggested in that the field collapse always has a place to go in the converters and supplies, to the output. So there is never a chance for the actual reversal i am describing, back to the source.

Mags
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: seychelles on August 05, 2015, 09:04:09 AM
hi dream think build, i would be very grateful if you could kindly tell me which magnetic software you
are using to generate this magnetic field color pic..thanks tons.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: padova on August 05, 2015, 09:27:51 AM
It is all the same stuff:  A changing magnetic field perpendicular to conductors induces a voltage across the conductor.  In modern, efficient power supplies and motor drives the BEMF voltage is closely limited to the supply voltage and circuit common through the use of fast switching elements and careful circuit layout.

That's way they have non of Overunity. More than half energy was suppressed. That's how mr. Edison
was doing things century ago. But I guess all proofs so far wasn't sufficient to start teaching  the
students. And this is what we have, global worming and possibly the end of the world. :)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Magluvin on August 07, 2015, 05:13:05 AM
Seems like this topic died. What happened?

Mags
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on August 07, 2015, 06:05:34 AM
I think we're all busy at the bench. I know I am :)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on August 07, 2015, 06:11:50 AM
Seems like this topic died. What happened?

Mags

I'm still working at it but noting new to share and it looks like TinMan is also working hard at it but sometimes things don't work out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhupY3D8Fwg&feature=em-subs_digest

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Magluvin on August 07, 2015, 07:50:11 AM
Ive seen motor windings with waxed string to hold the bundles tight. Could be used to tie down loose ends. Used it at a company I used to work for Union Switch and Signal to tie wire bundles in rail road and subway switch boxes.  But the string was only for during the bundling then tie wrapped and strings removed.
Once you tie the knot, it wont come loose on its own. 

There are hot glue sticks that are higher temp and harder when cool.  I use the hard for most things. Guys in car audio ind hot glue tweeters and panels using the softer sticks and the sun is enough to let it loose.

Mags
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on August 07, 2015, 08:23:32 AM
I pulled apart a small DC motor only to find it only had 3 rotor segments DOH! Can't really re-wire that. Pulling apart a power saw this weekend. Getting a commutator for the opposite end may be a be of fun though. May have to rig something up.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on August 07, 2015, 12:16:27 PM
Sorry guys-im out.

All this talk about patents,Aaron the rookie,peter lindermann-->just go's to show how easy it is to take some one elses work and get a patent on it.

I can see it now.
The secrets of the rotary transformer-$39.95.

Brad
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MagnaProp on August 07, 2015, 12:26:10 PM
Sorry guys-im out...
:'( 

 ...just use the moderation of this thread to clear all that stuff out. If the post isn't directly related to getting the device working then delete it. Including this post. With the "previous art" posted here, a patent would be worthless so don't let that scare you off.

Edit...
Never mind. I see it's the patent story from the moderator of this thread that helped chase you away ::)
Hope you come back. The planet needs you and your ideas on its side in helping to spread good info.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MagnaProp on August 07, 2015, 01:03:45 PM
...I am glad you have decided to keep your ideas close to your chest, gives the those who have an interest the opportunity to think things through for themselves...
Just curious which oil baron you work for? They like it when said info isn't released  8)

This thread just needs a good house cleaning from the mod.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MarkE on August 07, 2015, 03:06:28 PM
Sorry guys-im out.

All this talk about patents,Aaron the rookie,peter lindermann-->just go's to show how easy it is to take some one elses work and get a patent on it.

I can see it now.
The secrets of the rotary transformer-$39.95.

Brad
Oh that is just the "Complete Beginner's Guide to the Rotary Transformer"  Next will come the "Complete Advanced Guide to the Rotary Transformer", and finally:  "Rotary Transformer Secrets".  Buy each for just $39.95, or the whole set at a "discount" for just $129.95.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on August 07, 2015, 05:58:05 PM
Thanks for all your help Brad. You've given us plenty work with.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: ramset on August 07, 2015, 10:09:24 PM
since you're talking about this anyway
from here ..

 http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20208-2015-energy-conference-presentation-summaries-release-dates.html?s=5047f6bf0b17268b3a7a41e2e858067f

Aaron's post below
 
Arrow 2015 Energy Conference Presentation Summaries & Release Dates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Douglas Lindstrom spoke on the ECE Unified Field Theory - and amazingly, much was quite understandable to the layman. He did cover some mathematics but also covered many concepts involving overunity processes in cold fusion and even parametric oscillators, which are going to become more and more popular in this field. There are references to some of the parametric work and some has been replicated and verified. His presentation will also include a PDF of the PowerPoint with all the notes. Dr. Lindstrom works with Dr. Myron Evans - Tom Bearden considers him the most important physicist alive.

Al Throckmorton's presentation was very inspirational. This was a very rare appearance. Half of his presentation was really his story about who is he and much of his life experience, which was filled with priceless nuggets of wisdom. He had his special water gas pump, which is detonated with the plasma ignition circuit. We couldn't pump water with it since we were in doors, but he did fill up the chamber and detonated the gas and the pressure gauge was over 200 psi, which is way more than enough to pump a very substantial amount of water. We'll be including some diagrams and schematics for the pump so others see exactly what it is. The first application will be for small village use in Africa to pump water over long distances to improve the quality of their lives, which much of it is spent simply carrying water miles and miles from a remove water well.

Aaron Murakami (I) presented on the plasma ignition. Last year I spoke about the theory, operation, etc... with some demos. This year's talk was to specifically show how I overcame the issue of wasted spark ignition systems and how to put the plasma ignition on these ignitions, which are so common these days.

Paul Babcock presented on Ethanol, debunked a lot of the anti-ethanol propaganda that is so popular and showed some of the designs that he and his brother have developed, which make small scale ethanol production a breeze. Ethanol is freedom and you'll really learn why in this presentation. Ethanol is as good as cash or even better if you have a smart game plan and in these financially troublesome times, this information is priceless.

John Bedini showed his self-running motor - it was the first thing he showed me 16 years ago when we first met. It is really 3 machines in one and operates on one set of old 25+ year D cell alkaline batteries that are corroded, the springs in the battery holder are rusted out and the batteries are just taped in there. He spins the rotor and it starts off slow, turns a rotor with a propeller and blinks LEDs to show what phase the motor is in. By the end of John's talk, it is about 25-50% faster than it was in the beginning - not because it took that long to get to full speed but because it recharged its own running battery over the course of the presentation.

Graham Gunderson showed a simple transformer setup and demonstrated that it not only makes up its own losses, but actually produces a bit more. The overunity is small, but it is something he wanted to share with everyone because if you can't get to unity, you're not going to get to overunity. Since there is an obvious lack of enough replications of several overunity devices that many people are attempting, taking baby steps with this very simple transformer concept is absolutely necessary. Any builder with basic technical skills can make this transformer and by following Graham's instructions and references, they can achieve the same results.

William Lyne gave a fascinating comparison between some of the propulsion ideas of Tesla and J.J. Thomson. Eric Dollard was the one that actually suggested this topic since there are many gems inside of Occult Ether Physics by William Lyne. J.J. Thomson is one of the most important scientists to understanding not just the electrical sciences, but the real physics of the aether.

Paul Babcock's second presentation was on Magnetic Energy Secrets part 3 where he makes it VERY simple to understand what is necessary to create an overunity motor. He breaks it down to 3 very simple principles that almost anyone can understand. Paul covers multiple machines that have overunity results and shows how they are all adhering to these concepts. Back EMF is the bane of overunity and he shares the principles necessary to create a motor that does not generate - meaning there is simply no back emf!

Jim Murray presentation is crucial to the successful replication of his Dynaflux Alternator. Many who have tried to replicate it have failed. He shared the most important secret to understand to making it work as well as disclosing for the first time ever several pieces of information that were never disclosed in the patent. The patent has been expired for a long time now so it is public domain and he wants everyone to be able to understand what it is really about. The COP is over 2.5 on his laboratory bench model, which means it produces over 250% more electricity than it takes to run it.

Jeane Manning moderated this year's Panel Discussion, which included Eric Dollard, Al Throckmorton, Graham Gunderson, myself (Aaron), Jim Murray, Paul Babcock, William Lyne and Douglas Lindstrom. We discuss some common threads between different valid overunity technologies, the creative process and its importance, Graham and Eric discuss Tesla's patent which utilizes Cosmic Rays to charge capacitors to power loads and Eric gives some very clear specifics on this as he has replicated this in the past. There are multiple discussions about splitting water without electrolysis using electrostatics to rip the water apart without running current through it. Al Throckmorton's water fuel cell for the pump that he demonstrated does not use electrolysis to split the water, it is a water capacitor and it works incredibly well. I share one patent on this kind of process that I tried to duplicate in the past and Eric Dollard discusses his friend's work in this area who successfully mastered the electrostatic separation of water. Before we started the Panel Discussion, we gave recognition to the four Electrical Engineering students and two musicians who won the contests to have their conference and lodging costs covered by an Anonymous Donor.

Veljko Milkovic was not at the conference but his team was kind enough to provide us with a video compilation of quite a bit of his work. We played some of this during some of the breaks but did not have time to show the whole thing. Veljko Milkovic is the inventor of the popular 2-Stage Mechanical Oscillator, which produces many times more mechanical work that it takes to run the machine. This will be posted on YouTube at some point so everyone can watch it and learn more about his work.

Stephen P. McGreevy gave a very interesting talk on natural VLF radio recording. The Earth and atmosphere is constantly creating all kinds of music and other sounds, which are not audible to the human ear. Animals hear these sounds building up before an earthquake and that is how they know an earthquake is about to strike so they flee the area. Even if there is no natural disaster coming, these sounds are constantly around us. Stephen shows us many of the places where he traveled to record these sounds, he demonstrates the difference between the sounds and how different places sound different, various antenna methods to pick them up the best and anyone can get the receivers through his website so you can experience this as well. This is a fun and simple way, especially for children, to get in touch with the world around them. There are also schematics to build your own receiver that are open sourced on his site. This talk is highly related to Eric Dollard's Advanced Seismic Warning System.

John Polakowski did not make it to the conference so to replace his presentation, Graham Gundreson gave a one hour presentation and John Bedini followed up with a one hour presentation.

Graham Gunderson went into a lot of detail on his experience with Floyd Sweet's VTA (Vacuum Triode Amplifier) technology. Graham, John Bedini and one other individual has more experience experimenting with the VTA than probably everyone else combined. Graham spent 10-15 years on this nearly full time. The VTA used special barium ferrite magnets and the information that Graham shared about their special properties is rarely known by anyone in the "free energy" community. He discusses how they can be programmed to oscillate at very specific frequencies. Many of the REAL principles involved with the VTA are shared and Graham also shares about someone's work who replicated the VTA type concept using some Bedini SG circuits and barium ferrite magnets to charge the batteries in his electric car. This presentation is a must have for anyone that ever wanted to know what the VTA was really about. You'll also learn quite a bit about permanent magnets in general that is not widely known.

John Bedini surprised us again by demonstrating his Gravity Tuner circuit that measures activity in our spacial environment as well as demonstrating his famous Kromrey G-Field Generator. This was a shocking demonstration for most everyone at the conference because as it ran, the magnets turned cold instead of hot and when he lit bulbs with the output, it sped up. Also, shorting the output made the G-Field generator speed up and it demonstrated the pure white sparks, which are a phenomena of true negative energy circuits.

Eric P. Dollard finished the conference with a presentation that lasted almost 4 hours. If anyone can take multiple seemingly unrelated topics and tie them together with such mastery, it is Eric Dollard. He goes into the fact that J.J. Thompson is the key person when it comes to understanding the real aether physics, morphic fields and golden ratio archetypes all around us, concepts of levitation and musical harmonics and how the waveforms can tie together to give huge impulses that can catapult physical objects, science based on natural principles and how modern times has entered a new dark age with the current models that only serve to maintain ignorance about such principles and what direction we need to go to move back in the right direction. Eric goes into depth about Pythagorean mathematics and how it is key to understanding the natural science that is hidden in this day and age as well as much in depth discussion on various musical scales using the real Pythagorean ratios, which were accompanied with a few audio samples that were put together by Seattle Music Composer Charles Roland Berry. This allowed everyone to hear the difference between the ancient musical scales and today's common scale. Eric even covers a fair amount about Gustav LeBon and covers many comparisons showing the mirror images between some of the music of Bach and polyphase power systems with many examples using his Versor Algebra diagrams. Needless to say, anyone that does not understand the relationship between music and electricity after watching this presentation has not been paying attention. In the end, Eric summarizes this presentation with an in depth discussion of the physics of the aether based on the work of J. J. Thomson including the mathematical equations of the aether that nobody else has been able to figure out because J. J. Thomson convoluted so much of it in his own writings because he never kept a continuity between different mathematical variables so it has always been confusing. If anyone can straighten out this mess, it is Eric Dollard and that is exactly what he has done so for the first time ever, you will be able to see as clearly as possible based on what is in J. J. Thomson's work what he was really after. This presentation is THE definitive lecture on J. J. Thomson and the true physics of the aether. 
----------------------------------
end Quote
Thx
Chet K
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on August 08, 2015, 12:21:09 AM
Interesting summary.

So.... here are some questions.

How many people used an actual laboratory-grade power analyzer such as a Clarke-Hess 2335A to examine the actual power inputs and outputs of their electrical overunity devices, and what were the results of those tests?

How many people showed self running motors that DID NOT have ANY batteries connected, that ran for longer than their internal stores of energy (caps, flywheels, etc.) could produce?

How many people daisy-chained multiple copies of their devices, so that each one ran on the output of the previous one in the chain, with only the first one needing batteries or other power sources, and producing enough excess power to power a load _and_ the next one in the chain, at every stage in the chain?

How many people were raided by the Men In Black (or other agents of suppression) who prevented the presentation of any of the overunity devices?

How many of the devices and inventors were picked up by talent scouts from major industrial corporations or universities?

How many of the devices shown had a history of being examined and vetted by a mob of engineering graduate students from major research universities? How many research papers in legitimate scholarly journals have been published concerning any of the devices or methods shown?

How many FTW QEG builders showed their guaranteed COP >3.9 overunity quantum energy generators actually powering loads, with proper measurements of input and output power?











(I know the answers to these questions... and so do you.)


Here's a question I don't know the answer to: How much money was made by people selling plans, kits, information packs, DVDs and et cetera, claiming to provide information that would result in the purchaser being able to build a true Overunity device?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: maxc on August 08, 2015, 01:44:12 AM
I pulled apart a small DC motor only to find it only had 3 rotor segments DOH! Can't really re-wire that. Pulling apart a power saw this weekend. Getting a commutator for the opposite end may be a be of fun though. May have to rig something up.
Is your commutator wide enough too cut in 1/2. ;) :) Just make brushes narrower.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: TinselKoala on August 08, 2015, 01:52:05 AM
Re-inventing the wheel, are we?

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-95.html#post218245
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: pomodoro on August 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
Look out for the Dynaflux patent disclosure by Jim Murray, all of his non working secrets will be revealed for the first time ever  for a low price.  ;)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on September 06, 2015, 08:47:41 AM
Just got back home in Oz. Anyone still working on this?

Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: shylo on September 11, 2015, 01:09:02 AM
It's a shame this one died. I think Tinman  was on to something, I'm still trying but not having any luck.
artv
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: Jimboot on September 11, 2015, 01:37:49 AM
It's a shame this one died. I think Tinman  was on to something, I'm still trying but not having any luck.
artv
Ok just you and me then :) We should hook up on Skype. I'm jimboot on skype.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: MagnaProp on September 11, 2015, 04:57:54 AM
...I think Tinman  was on to something...
I think he knows he's onto something also. That's why you have to shut it down before the MIB visit you  8)
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: shylo on September 11, 2015, 11:36:18 AM
Hi Jim, I'm not sure how skype works but am pretty sure it would eat up my Data plan pretty quick and when I go over it's expensive.
The answer lies in the shorting Tinman was doing, but he was using some electronic circuit we never seen. I don't think anyway.
It's funny that after his meeting the direction of the topic was trying to be switched to a solid state version.
artv
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on September 11, 2015, 01:19:33 PM
It's a shame this one died. I think Tinman  was on to something, I'm still trying but not having any luck.
artv

It hasnt died-it's just not here.

Some things are best hidden in plain sight.

Anyone know when the next PMBO is?
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on November 14, 2015, 08:53:51 AM
Getting closer, I think I just need to make the shorting circuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoL9-j0k8U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoL9-j0k8U)

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gyulasun on November 14, 2015, 11:04:58 AM
It hasnt died-it's just not here.

Some things are best hidden in plain sight.

Anyone know when the next PMBO is?

Hi Brad,

I just checked the rwgresearch and iaec forums and no trace of PMBO for 2015 as yet.
I wonder What you think you do if it will not be organised.    ::)

Gyula
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on November 14, 2015, 11:30:42 AM
Getting closer, I think I just need to make the shorting circuit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoL9-j0k8U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoL9-j0k8U)

Luc

It is good to see that some one has the determination to stick with it,and keep going until they start to see the end results getting nearer.

 How much power is required to light that bulb to that brightness Luc?.
And how is it that when a load like this is placed on the generating coil not only reduces the power in,but also increases the RPM ?. Study the workings closely-the timing-the magnetic fields. You have an approaching magnetic field to a generating coil on the stater-->why is no CEMF(counter electromagnetic force) produced by the generating coil?.

Then think about what would make the motoring action stronger. What would the electromagnet stator section act most against,and how could you switch that force (change the forces direction) in synchronization with each rotor field change. You just need to bias the transformer like the guy dose in the video below,but where you have rotation,and he dose not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kosQIrDCWM
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on November 14, 2015, 11:36:54 AM
Hi Brad,

I just checked the rwgresearch and iaec forums and no trace of PMBO for 2015 as yet.
I wonder What you think you do if it will not be organised.    ::)

Gyula

I would say i dont think there is going to be one this year.
Perhaps Russ is too busy?.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on November 14, 2015, 03:07:40 PM
How much power is required to light that bulb to that brightness Luc?.

No power is required

And how is it that when a load like this is placed on the generating coil not only reduces the power in,but also increases the RPM ?.

In this modified universal motor configuration, when one uses the stator coils only as generator coils and only allows the induced rotor coil current pulses to go in one (correct) direction, it will assist the rotor and at not cost of current to the rotor coil input.
Modifications need to be made to the rotor commutator, brushes and timing to get this effect.

Study the workings closely-the timing-the magnetic fields. You have an approaching magnetic field to a generating coil on the stater-->why is no CEMF(counter electromagnetic force) produced by the generating coil?.

Best for me not to explain this yet as I've got a lot of things going on at this time. It will all come together soon.

Then think about what would make the motoring action stronger. What would the electromagnet stator section act most against,and how could you switch that force (change the forces direction) in synchronization with each rotor field change. You just need to bias the transformer like the guy dose in the video below,but where you have rotation,and he dose not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kosQIrDCWM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kosQIrDCWM)

Thanks for sharing that ;)

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on November 14, 2015, 11:43:47 PM


In this modified universal motor configuration, when one uses the stator coils only as generator coils and only allows the induced rotor coil current pulses to go in one (correct) direction, it will assist the rotor and at not cost of current to the rotor coil input.


Best for me not to explain this yet as I've got a lot of things going on at this time. It will all come together soon.

Thanks for sharing that ;)

Luc

Quote
No power is required

Sorry Luc,i wasnt clear enough with my question.
Using a power supply,how much power is drawn from that power supply to get the bulb to light to that brightness. It looks like the bulb is a 12 volt brake/tail light combo bulb,as i see to elements in there.

Quote
Modifications need to be made to the rotor commutator, brushes and timing to get this effect.

Like i said-it is good that some one took notice.
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: gotoluc on November 15, 2015, 01:23:31 AM
Sorry Luc,i wasnt clear enough with my question.
Using a power supply,how much power is drawn from that power supply to get the bulb to light to that brightness. It looks like the bulb is a 12 volt brake/tail light combo bulb,as i see to elements in there.

Like i said-it is good that some one took notice.

Okay, it takes about 9vdc @ .385a = 3.474 Watts to light it to about the same.

Yes, you got the bulb right. I'm using the tail element as the brake element would only glow. However, the rpm would go up more but I chose to show more light.

Luc
Title: Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
Post by: tinman on March 26, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Continued topic here.
http://overunity.com/17658/fun-with-rusty-old-universal-motors-2/