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Author Topic: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic  (Read 148629 times)

TinselKoala

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #210 on: July 27, 2015, 11:33:26 PM »
1. If an electric motor is spinning freely at its max RPM with no load on it, there is _no_ extra torque available from the motor! All the mechanical power produced goes into overcoming bearing friction, brush friction, windage, electromagnetic effects, etc. If you put a load on it, the speed will change, and the power consumption will change, until a new equilibrium is reached.

At least the motor in my demonstration is actually driving a mechanical load; the tape flag is moving quite a bit of air.

2. Is electricity being "produced"? That all depends on what you mean by "produced". It's not coming out of thin air! Nor is it coming from "magnetic plasma" or other fictitious sources in these experiments. The changing magnetic fields of the armature, produced by the brushes energizing segments in combination with the motion of the armature itself, "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils, in perfect accordance with Faraday's Law of Induction. The faster the magnetic fields _change_ through the stator coils, the greater the induction effect.


tinman

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #211 on: July 28, 2015, 01:29:58 AM »

At least the motor in my demonstration is actually driving a mechanical load; the tape flag is moving quite a bit of air.

2. Is electricity being "produced"? That all depends on what you mean by "produced". It's not coming out of thin air! Nor is it coming from "magnetic plasma" or other fictitious sources in these experiments. The changing magnetic fields of the armature, produced by the brushes energizing segments in combination with the motion of the armature itself, "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils, in perfect accordance with Faraday's Law of Induction. The faster the magnetic fields _change_ through the stator coils, the greater the induction effect.

Quote
1. If an electric motor is spinning freely at its max RPM with no load on it, there is _no_ extra torque available from the motor! All the mechanical power produced goes into overcoming bearing friction, brush friction, windage, electromagnetic effects, etc. If you put a load on it, the speed will change, and the power consumption will change, until a new equilibrium is reached.

That is correct.
And if the motor is configured correctly,then we can increase the speed,increase the load,and decrease power consumption.
Open case demo modle will be done by weekend,and posted here. ;)

verpies

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #212 on: July 28, 2015, 01:57:31 AM »
And if the motor is configured correctly,then we can increase the speed,increase the load,and decrease power consumption.
Open case demo modle will be done by weekend,and posted here. ;)
If you want to be rigorous then measure the input power this way.
Output power can be filtered out with that circuit, too.

Jimboot

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #213 on: July 28, 2015, 04:28:57 AM »
That is correct.
And if the motor is configured correctly,then we can increase the speed,increase the load,and decrease power consumption.
Open case demo modle will be done by weekend,and posted here. ;)
There goes the weekend... and the footy

Jimboot

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #214 on: July 28, 2015, 04:32:58 AM »
1. If an electric motor is spinning freely at its max RPM with no load on it, there is _no_ extra torque available from the motor! All the mechanical power produced goes into overcoming bearing friction, brush friction, windage, electromagnetic effects, etc. If you put a load on it, the speed will change, and the power consumption will change, until a new equilibrium is reached.

At least the motor in my demonstration is actually driving a mechanical load; the tape flag is moving quite a bit of air.

2. Is electricity being "produced"? That all depends on what you mean by "produced". It's not coming out of thin air! Nor is it coming from "magnetic plasma" or other fictitious sources in these experiments. The changing magnetic fields of the armature, produced by the brushes energizing segments in combination with the motion of the armature itself, "produce" or rather INDUCE currents in the stator coils, in perfect accordance with Faraday's Law of Induction. The faster the magnetic fields _change_ through the stator coils, the greater the induction effect.
I hate to bring up PL book but he does talk about BEMF as Pin. Isn't that what this is. You've found a way to use this extra Pin rather than work against it? You draw current which causes more Pin in the form of BEMF. Just my simple logic.

MileHigh

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #215 on: July 28, 2015, 04:45:07 AM »
That is correct.
And if the motor is configured correctly,then we can increase the speed,increase the load,and decrease power consumption.
Open case demo modle will be done by weekend,and posted here. ;)

It all sounds great but the bogeyman is still the waste heat.  It sounds like in all likelihood what you are doing is reducing the proportion of waste heat.  That's commendable and is a good effort, but let's keep in mind that it is not remarkable.

Jimboot

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #216 on: July 28, 2015, 05:14:34 AM »
It all sounds great but the bogeyman is still the waste heat.  It sounds like in all likelihood what you are doing is reducing the proportion of waste heat.  That's commendable and is a good effort, but let's keep in mind that it is not remarkable.
Can we calculate the BEMF as power in? What happens to the heat in that situation? Welcome back

gotoluc

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #217 on: July 28, 2015, 05:19:16 AM »
Good evening MileHigh

You can post but keep in mind your posts won't be visible until Stefan or myself approve them.
The unfortunate part about this is, if both of us are away for some time and there's a lot of posts, your post may not be seen, mostly if it moves on to another page or two.

To everyone, I've been busy with preparation for an event that is taking place this weekend. I will only be able to check the topic on late evening (EST) from Friday to Sunday.

Regards

Luc

Jimboot

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #218 on: July 28, 2015, 05:33:04 AM »
Good evening MileHigh

You can post but keep in mind your posts won't be visible until Stefan or myself approve them.
The unfortunate part about this is, if both of us are away for some time and there's a lot of posts, your post may not be seen, mostly if it moves on to another page or two.

To everyone, I've been busy with preparation for an event that is taking place this weekend. I will only be able to check the topic on late evening (EST) from Friday to Sunday.

Regards

Luc
Same event as Brad :) ?

a.king21

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #219 on: July 28, 2015, 05:44:57 AM »
My two cents:


An electric motor, properly understood, is a reactive power device. If it is pulsed, then the effect can be the same as Tesla's earthquake machine. Instead of an upside down pendulum, as in Tesla's case, we have a "continuous" pendulum in the form of a circle.
Now we absolutely know that we can get many times more reactive power than real power in an electronic device. The trick is in getting some reactive power out without affecting the input.
Think about it.

gotoluc

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #220 on: July 28, 2015, 05:47:56 AM »
Same event as Brad :) ?

No, unfortunately not!... it's a different kind of event, the kind where they don't let you play with magnets and sparks :(

I'll do my best to check what will go down... or is it up ::)

Regards

Luc

MileHigh

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #221 on: July 28, 2015, 06:26:10 AM »
Can we calculate the BEMF as power in? What happens to the heat in that situation? Welcome back

No unfortunately not.  You can look at the BEMF as "recycled" power in.  In other words, let's say you measure 10 watts power consumption by the motor.  Let's suppose that one of those 10 watts becomes a repeating BEMF spike of a certain amount of energy.  So you have already measured and accounted for that BEMF spike in your input power measurement.

Keeping things simple, let's just say that you get one BEMF spike per second, and you use that train of spikes to charge a capacitor.  Since your know that the input power that is allocated towards the BEMF spike is one watt, than each BEMF spike contains one Joule of energy.

You can say that the motor is temporarily storing one Joule of energy per second of input power in the inductance of the motor windings.  That means that that one Joule of energy per second did nothing to make the motor turn, you can't get double time from the same energy that becomes the BEMF spike.

It suggests the classic question that very few people ask or try to answer:  My motor is outputting BEMF spikes, what is the average power that those spikes are running at?  Or you can say, how much energy is there in each spike?  You know the spike repetition rate from your scope.  That means you can work the measurement two possible ways:  You can measure the average spike power and then derive the energy per spike.  Or, you can measure the energy per spike and derive the average spike power.

Jimboot

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #222 on: July 28, 2015, 06:53:35 AM »
been fiddling with the brushes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsBH9ylic74

Farmhand

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #223 on: July 28, 2015, 09:40:21 AM »
I think in a motor we "can" get back some forward emf produced from the collapsing magnetic field of the coil = Inductive kickback or "Back emf".

I think we must first overcome the Counter emf or "Back emf" the input sees.

I think the best practice is to refer to the energy released by the coil after the intended work is done as something different than the Counter emf the input see's.

In a simple switched coil (pulse motor) with recovery diode situation as an example, the counter emf that restricts input current is I think "backward emf"
whereas the emf produced from the coil when the magnetic field collapses is I think "forward emf".

The energy regained during the process is always a fraction or a part of the energy that is input, and if that energy is then output as electrical energy then it is simply is not output as any other type of energy.

It goes in once and it comes out once, either as waste or as intended mechanical output or as reclaimed electrical energy not wasted or output as mechanical energy. All are parts or fractions of the input energy.
..

ramset

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #224 on: July 28, 2015, 10:15:18 AM »
I think the heat being generated  should be added to the claimed cop
Don't,t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Caloric measurements should be a part of every experiment ,this thing makes a ton of heat
DONT MISS THAT.......you can run for a month but if your not measuring all that heat....??
How much heat is it making 5...10...20 watts ...???

Did somebody say
TPU ??

This needs much more research and development.