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Author Topic: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic  (Read 148661 times)

picowatt

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #180 on: July 26, 2015, 07:00:35 PM »
To help resolve the issue, putting a scope on the coil in each case would speak volumes. Guess you posted while I was writing this.

I agree with .99, my eyeballs are not calibrated for arc voltage measurement. 

Tinman, consider repeating your scratch plate test using a scope with (at least) 10X probes connected across the arc.

Recall being a kid and lighting a NE-2 with just a LV battery, some relatively short lengths of hookup wire (clip leads in today's parlance) and an ordinary metal file connected in series.  Scratching one lead across the face of the file produced an on/off pulse train that, in concert with the minimal lead inductance, produced enough voltage to light the NE-2 connected across the small arcs produced.

Connecting an NE-2 between your brush and scratch plate might just light up the NE-2 as well.

PW

gyulasun

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #181 on: July 26, 2015, 11:53:33 PM »
Hi Luc,

Quote from: tinman on Today at 04:40:59 PM

    You pulsing the coils is very different to using the brushes only,and trying to collect from that.To get any sort of higher end voltage,you would need some really crappy brush/armature contact.

Answer from you: Not sure where you're going with this.


I think Brad means that in order to receive HV spikes from the rotor coils (by using brushes only and no MOSFET switching),  the electrical contact between the brushes and the copper commutators of the rotor would need to be very bad, meaning less frequent contacts.

This would involve less chance for the brushes to short the gaps (because of crappy i.e less frequent contacts), this would result in a higher self inductance for the coils on the rotor hence the collapsing field would be able to make higher amplitude flyback pulses than in the normal brush-commutator contact case when the brushes do short the gaps hence the resulting coil inductance of the rotor can only be smaller than in the crappy contact case.

I think it is okay that there is a difference in pulsing the rotor coils by a MOSFET (while the brushes also work as normally they should)  and by the brushes only (when no MOSFET used).  In the first case the number of interruptions is more frequent than in the case of the brushes only, and can also happen when there are no adjacent segment shortings done by the brushes. 

In case of using the normal brushes only (no MOSFET switch) you can shift the position of one of the brushes a little to insure that segment shorting should only happen at one of the brushes at a time and not simultaniously at both brushes. This way, out of the 8 rotor coils (say there 8 coils in the rotor), always only one of the 8 coils would become shorted instead of two, this latter in case of a normal (symmetrical) brush positioning always happens.  Even so, the use of a MOSFET switch to capture the flyback HV pulse energy in the rotor can be more favorable than in case of the shifted brush position.

Gyula

tinman

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #182 on: July 27, 2015, 01:15:45 AM »
Brad,

I don't understand the confusion.

First,  fact, any coil will produce flyback when the power source is disconnected, so the rotor coils are not exempted.

Second, my idea to collect the rotor flyback was because the input current is outrageously high when only the rotor coils are connected, so I was trying to lower it by using something that is normally wasted.

Third, if the stator coils are separate from the rotor coils, then why not direct the flyback in them and see if it can assist the rotor.

Forth, it does work and better than I thought so why not consider using it?

Luc

Totally agree Luc.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Brad

synchro1

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #183 on: July 27, 2015, 01:54:04 AM »
Totally agree Luc.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Brad

@Luc,

Can shorting the output coil help in combination with directing the rotor flyback to the stator winding in "Tinman's" split stator coil configuration? Could a third commutator help?

gotoluc

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #184 on: July 27, 2015, 04:02:03 AM »
@ Gyula, thanks for taking the time to explain Brad's post.

You help is always appreciated and I'm sure I speak for many of the researchers you have helped and continue to help.

Luc

@Luc,

Can shorting the output coil help in combination with directing the rotor flyback to the stator winding in "Tinman's" split stator coil configuration? Could a third commutator help?

I don't know as I have not done that yet. I was first trying to understand what was up with the rotor coil and brushes.

In time and experiments it will come

Totally agree Luc.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Brad

Glad to hear that!  nothing like testing for our self

The reason I was looking for a way to re-direct rotor flyback to the stator coil was because I though that may be what you were doing. I knew for sure something was up with the rotor coil and brushes.
It's interesting how it turned out ;D

I'll experiment with rotor shorting and see how it compares.

Thanks mate

Luc

For your entertainment
As you will see,current causes the light show from the brushes,not voltage.
Voltage potential will only define as to how large the gap can be before !current! will begin to flow. As the gap between the brush and commutator segment will only be very small,the only a low voltage potential is required for current to flow.High voltage is also not required to see spark fly when hooking a clip lead to a wire as Luc suggested in his video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGMMDBkf1RY

I was busy all day  only noticed this post now

Wow! that's an eye opener :o

Thanks mate for taking the time to do this video!

I will never look at a spark the same way ;) and I'm sure other also.

Thanks for enlightening me

Luc

hoptoad

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #185 on: July 27, 2015, 12:17:46 PM »
snip...
I don't know as I have not done that yet. I was first trying to understand what was up with the rotor coil and brushes.
In time and experiments it will come
snip..
You may find this 'old school' info movie useful. It's a great overview covering a lot of material mentioned on this thread and others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpL0joqJmqY

Grumage

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #186 on: July 27, 2015, 12:31:45 PM »
Dear MileHigh and Mak E.

I was a little shocked to find 7 PM's in my messages box this morning, the most ever has been 2 !!

Please refrain, I'm not interested.

I will pursue my line of experiments, my way, I don't need " guidance. "

Cheers Grum.

Jimboot

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #187 on: July 27, 2015, 12:34:56 PM »
Dear MileHigh and Mak E.

I was a little shocked to find 7 PM's in my messages box this morning, the most ever has been 2 !!

Please refrain, I'm not interested.

I will pursue my line of experiments, my way, I don't need " guidance. "

Cheers Grum.


HI Guys, yep take me off too please. I tried to understand it but you lost me at "I've added you because.."

tinman

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #188 on: July 27, 2015, 12:51:18 PM »
I would like to post a few things here,so as those working on this project are not led astray.

As most here will know,i disagree with the arcing at the brushes being from high voltage flyback<--as some refer to it. It is my belief that the arcing is from high current flow at a relatively low voltage.

I would like to post some comments by verpies at OUR here.

Quote TinMan
There is no inductive kickback from the rotor coils of one of these motors, as the coils are all connected-there is never an open circuit for an inductive kickback current to flow out from.   The coils of the rotor form one big current loop


Quote verpies: That's true.
The brushes periodically short windings as they span two commutator segments during their travel.  Filing down brushes minimizes the time during which two commutator segments (and windings) are shorted.

To avoid this shorting altogether, the brushes' tips would have to be filed down to a width less than the gap between commutator segments. This is both impractical and undesirable as this will interrupt the current to the windings and inductors "hate" when this is done to them.

Unlike capacitors, inductors do not create spikes and sparks when shorted, but when opened - they do.
In other words: inductors "like" to be shorted - capacitors do not.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: TinMan on 2015-07-25, 18:18:53
What you see as high voltage spikes on the scope is only brush noise/arcing. RF is generated from brush arcing due to high current's,and more so bad brush contact to the rotors armature.

Quote verpies:Yes



Quote
Quote Luc
You don't want to call it a "flyback spike"... so what do you want to call the effect when a coils current is shut off?
How can the current not reverse direction when the mosfet opens? if it didn't the capacitor would not get charged so fast and so high since the blocking diode only allows reverse current to go through.

Luc
The current will continue to flow in the same direction through that coil/inductor when the current flow supply is cut(becomes open) to that coil/inductor-the current flow dose not reverse in direction in that coil. Only the voltage polarity will change across that coil.

Now i know MH is going to be reading this,and i await his PM as to what i am going to say and show by way of video next(not my video by the way)

What he(and others) think brush arcing is,is high voltage kickback/flyback causing ionization of the air.<--this is not true.
The bright blue colored arcing you see is actually carbon and copper particles being ignited by the high current produced when the brush shorts each coil. During this high current flow,high temperatures are reached which ignite the particles from the brushes and commutator segments-this is why your brushes and commutator ware down after some time.

In the video below,you can actually see these particles still burning away between the commutator segments long after that segment has passed by the brush. You will also note that the arcing takes place exactly as the brush shorts each coil.

Luc
You were wondering why one brush gets hot,while the other stays cool. Well the answer is in the video-can you spot it?-which brush is doing almost all the arcing?-->which brush is the one shorting the coils first-which brush is the leading brush.

Unfortunately the guy said at the end that it was the voltage that was sustaining the arc,but as you can see,particles are still burning away even after the commutator segment has passed the brush. It is important to understand what really is happening,and what the arcs actually are you see at the brushes. The more sparks,arcs and pretty blue lights you see-the faster your brushes are wearing away<-- that wonderful light show is your brushes going up in smoke
Enjoy the video guy's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc4l1eooPKM



tinman

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #189 on: July 27, 2015, 01:02:23 PM »
Dear MileHigh and Mak E.

I was a little shocked to find 7 PM's in my messages box this morning, the most ever has been 2 !!

Please refrain, I'm not interested.

I will pursue my line of experiments, my way, I don't need " guidance. "

Cheers Grum.

Grum
The reason MH has included you in the email chain,is because that lovely fellow EMJ had MH band from posting ::),so this is the only way he can put forth his comments at the moment.

As EMJ seems to have gone walkabout,i think Stefan could lift the ban on MH.

Grumage

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #190 on: July 27, 2015, 01:05:09 PM »
Dear Brad.

Stefan could REALLY do with a thumbs up icon !!

I will have to use this one instead...............   ;)

Cheers Grum.

Edit. I have noticed our posts have crossed, I was referring, of course,to your video link!!

Cheers Grum.

tinman

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #191 on: July 27, 2015, 01:28:12 PM »
Here is another great video where you will see two things.
First-in the second run whit the weak field(as he calls it) You see the motor start up-but no arcing !until! the brushes and armature begin to heat up. When the brushes get hot enough,we see a really good light show. This is the brush material disintergrating-you can even see large red hot pieces being ejected on the left side brush.

Second-it the later half of the video,you see his scope showing various test points. The red trace at the bottom is the one to watch. If you listen carefully,you can hear when the brushes have heated up,and start to arc-at this very time,you will see the red trace go all wobbly at the peak-this is when the brushes are arcing. !BUT! do you see any high voltage spikes on that trace?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO46RVWOnb4

hoptoad

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #192 on: July 27, 2015, 01:40:41 PM »
You want to see sparks, here's some sparks. LOL!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0usO4r3rlCQ

synchro1

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #193 on: July 27, 2015, 02:07:31 PM »
Here is another great video where you will see two things.
First-in the second run whit the weak field(as he calls it) You see the motor start up-but no arcing !until! the brushes and armature begin to heat up. When the brushes get hot enough,we see a really good light show. This is the brush material disintergrating-you can even see large red hot pieces being ejected on the left side brush.

Second-it the later half of the video,you see his scope showing various test points. The red trace at the bottom is the one to watch. If you listen carefully,you can hear when the brushes have heated up,and start to arc-at this very time,you will see the red trace go all wobbly at the peak-this is when the brushes are arcing. !BUT! do you see any high voltage spikes on that trace?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO46RVWOnb4

@Tinman,

That looks like more then sparks at 1:31 in the video! Looks more like the "Ion Cloud" Webby1 spoke of: "Plasma transition" of hydrogen in the air? An abundance of "Ionized" free electrons attracted to the current path; Perhaps the source of the HV spikes?

Tinman's measured OU may be a consequence of this kind of "Plasma Transition Effect" from over speeding! The motor burning itself for fuel! Tinman would have to run his motor in a vaccum to test for it: "Red Line Plasma Gain".

Jimboot

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #194 on: July 27, 2015, 02:24:02 PM »
Recommended viewing for both of those. No spikes, it was pretty easy to hear the motor fall apart and the red trace deterioration.
I've learned a lot tonight already :)