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Author Topic: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic  (Read 102492 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #270 on: August 04, 2015, 12:51:37 AM »
How was a _valid_ patent issued anyway, since it is very clear that the information in it was disclosed publicly, years before the application was filed? I've read the patent and I don't see anything novel in it, that was not already disclosed publicly in many different locations long before the application was filed.  The basic idea is the same as the well-known TAG, or triggered spark gap, where a small spark at high voltage is used to ionize a gap which then allows a greater current at lower voltage from a bank of heavy capacitors to discharge through the gap.


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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #270 on: August 04, 2015, 12:51:37 AM »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #271 on: August 04, 2015, 01:23:44 AM »
How was a _valid_ patent issued anyway, since it is very clear that the information in it was disclosed publicly, years before the application was filed? I've read the patent and I don't see anything novel in it, that was not already disclosed publicly in many different locations long before the application was filed.  The basic idea is the same as the well-known TAG, or triggered spark gap, where a small spark at high voltage is used to ionize a gap which then allows a greater current at lower voltage from a bank of heavy capacitors to discharge through the gap.

You're probably right TK
I'm just not interested in putting energy in this kind of thing!... no OU possibility there ;D
So much time was wasted in the above patent story. I'm not going there again, no matter how good the story is.

Luc

Offline MarkE

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #272 on: August 04, 2015, 01:52:48 AM »
How was a _valid_ patent issued anyway, since it is very clear that the information in it was disclosed publicly, years before the application was filed? I've read the patent and I don't see anything novel in it, that was not already disclosed publicly in many different locations long before the application was filed.  The basic idea is the same as the well-known TAG, or triggered spark gap, where a small spark at high voltage is used to ionize a gap which then allows a greater current at lower voltage from a bank of heavy capacitors to discharge through the gap.
A patent doesn't really mean that much until the holder attempts to use it against someone they claim infringes it.

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #272 on: August 04, 2015, 01:52:48 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #273 on: August 04, 2015, 03:31:50 AM »
Tinman, you have a lot of patience and skill to be able to wind those armatures, and keep track of the winding patterns. I wonder if there isn't an easy way to depict the winding pattern by numbering all the armature segments (wire slots) then  providing the wind data and commutator connections in some kind of tabular form, so we can duplicate the pattern.

Also it would be interesting to devise a set of test curves of torque, speed and power use on the same graph to compare a modified vs unmodified motor in order to depict the shifts of each that we guess would occur. (see example DC motor graph). Of course if the intention is to produce something different than a motor, a graph of motor characteristics would not apply. So I ask is there an intention for the rewinding other than to produce a more efficient motor?

I see your scope shots of the modified (every other) commutator connections provides time for the armature field (hence induced field) to collapse with a 50% duty cycle till the next segment "fires".

The scope shot of the unmodified seems to depict a sawtooth current pattern with very little collapse time except for brush noise.

Good work as usual, be interesting to see what comes next.

Kind Regards
Vortex1
Vortex1
I will be building a dynamo today for load testing,so as we can take such measurements.

Offline tinman

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #274 on: August 04, 2015, 03:34:57 AM »
Okay, I'll do my best to explain the basic events without going into too many details but I'll cover enough so those who don't know about the water spark circuit can understand.

On June 25 2008 while experimenting on plasma spark I happen to combine a high voltage of an ignition coil with a low voltage of a capacitor.
The combination of these two with a high voltage blocking diode on the capacitor created a very enhanced spark which has an even greater effect if sprayed with a fine mist of water. The effect is more light and a very load cracking sound which I thought could be a dissociation of hydrogen oxygen of the water mist.
At about 6pm EST on June 26th I started a topic on the Overunity forum and titled it: " URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE"
http://overunity.com/5024/urgent-water-as-fuel-discovery-for-everyone-to-share/#.VbqZBEb_rIU

Please note the Overunity topic is dated June 27th but notice the time is 12:01am which is Berlin time, so 6 hours ahead of my Eastern Standard Time. So the information was publicly shared at 6pm EST on June 26th
Here is the 1st YouTube demo video which is correctly dated June 26th.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs

It's important to know the date the information was first publicly shared and my intent.
On my first video above please listen to my message between 4:23 and 4:52 and ignore the theories I shared.
Message: what I'm doing is, I want everyone to start thinking about this (circuit) and trying to get this effect and Improve it. I'm not the best in electronics, it's not really my field. So I'm posting this so people can start working on it and get this working. So let me show you what I've got so far.

One week later on July 4th 2008, Arron of the Energetic Forum started a topic and titled it "Water Sparkplug"
http://www.energeticforum.com/water-fuel/2242-water-sparkplug.html

On July 13th 2008 after participants suggestions of better diodes and me also using a single pole double throw relay to charge and discharge the capacitor, the effect was much better then the first video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE

On September 9th  2008: Arron posted a video with Peter Lindemann demonstrating the effect of the spark which was titled: "Peter Lindemann's Replication of Arron's circuit based on Luc's (gotoluc) method"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOhNtRhJ5Rw
Notice some recognition towards me in the video and title. Remember this when you read the below.

Around the beginning of April 2009, I was contacted by two individuals, one called Arvind and the other Kathik from a business they started in the US called Aquapulser.
They liked the high voltage diode blocked high current capacitor spark effect so much they decided to start a business and manufactured a ready made plug and play device so consumers could purchase. I was very happy they had done this as that would help to get it out faster and wished them the very best.
They told me they had been following the topic on each forum and from their research considered me to be the originator of the high voltage diode blocked high current capacitor spark effect.
They offered me a free sample of their device in recognition. They told me they couldn't afford to give more out because of their large start up investment which I understood.
Later on they contacted me again and suggested to patent the circuit since a bigger corporation could possibly patent it (even though it was open source) and could then prevent Aquapulser to manufacturing it.
They had a valid point as open source information is not as protected as some may think. So we had a written agreement that they can hold the patent only to prevent big corporations to use it and Aquapulser could not interfere with the open source community. Aquapulser paid for all patent and attorney costs.
Once again I wished them success and didn't ask for any profit as I admired their efforts and wanted them to have the ability to re-gain the huge expenses of the patent costs.
The patent included my name as one of the inventors along with Arvind and Karthik. This way they couldn't sell it without my consent because of the written joint ownership agreement. So even though I didn't wish to profit on Aquapulser sales, I was part owner of the patent document which secure it.
This ended up being good, because in early 2011 the two owners of Aquapulser were in disagreement. Karthik didn't agree with Arvind's new change of direction. He though Arvind was considering the sale the patent for profit and felt (rightfully so) this was not what we had agreed on.
Karthik contacted me and suggested we combine our ownership of the patent document to gain control of it and then together we could agree to dissolve it.
I had to trust Karthik's plan and be sure he would follow through once the first step was done.  Karthik followed through as he promised. He also took care of all the legal details and the original patent was dissolved. However, "for some reason", it coincided Aaron found out there was a patent filed and on the Energetic Forum he started to publicly accuse me of steeling his circuit and so on.
I mostly ignored him as I knew my intent was good and was of no profit or benefit to me.
Then Aaron joined forces with Arvind and demanded a new patent be created and that there was no reason to have my name as inventor because it had nothing to do with my circuit.
However, the patent attorney did not see it the way Aaron did as I'm sure he had done some research on the first patent (before putting it together) which is now dissolved.
The patent attorney tried to reason with Aaron. However, after a few weeks and so many harassing emails from Aaron the patent attorney quit and said he would not ever get involved again unless there was a prior agreement reached.

What I didn't mention is, during the months this was going on, I was overseas in South Africa for 6 months at my travel expense and making no money helping a mission feeding and clothing the poor. So it was quite a challenge to get internet access and deal with all this fiasco.
Anyways, back to the story, Karthik said he would support me on what ever decision I made.
I was about to give it away because I just don't care for this kind of stuff but something in me said don't let this guy have his way and hold firm as inventor. In the end we all agreed to refile the patent with Aaron's name on the inventors list. This was the best I could do then to just walk away and let Arvind and Aaron file for a new Patent.

Last time Karthik and I were contacted by Arvind, he wanted us to pay for our share of the new patent. We both replied we didn't have any funds, so I don't know and don't need to know what the status is.

You be the judge of who's name should be on the patent!
Aaron's argument was the circuit the Aquapulser Team used in the patent was closer to the circuit he shared then mine. This is true as my circuit was basic and as I mentioned my electronic skills was minimal and why I did my switching by hand on the first video and 2 weeks later I used a relay. However, both circuits are based on the same effect and I think this is what the Aquapulser team had originally considered prior to the patent.

One way or the other I can tell you that profit or recognition are of no interest to me. I have never profited one cent from anything I've shared or ask for recognition and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.
It's always been zero in and $1,000. out of my pocket to pay for supplies and equipment.
Also, look at any of my video's, none of them have advertising.
I have over 950,000 combined views and 2,500 subscribers. Would this suggest I'm in it to make profit?
So why don't I want profit?... because I believe profit, gain and control is what causes poverty and prevents inventions to come out that would be for the good of all.
So my thoughts and way of life is, if I don't believe in it, why should I participate in it!

For you profit oriented people. You may want to reflect on how those actions will help others. As taking more for yourself then others have is contrary to the flow of nature or the universe.
If that doesn't make you think then, tell me which person was able to bring something from this world when their end comes?
Better chances for those who have helped others will be seeding for the next then ones money piled in the bank.

Luc

PS, looks like Arvind has continued the business and I still wish him success.
Aquapulser web site: http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/
Aquapulser Videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/ecoignition/videos

It comes at no surprise that Aaron and Lindermann would take some one elses work,make a few mod's,and then claim it as there own -so as to make a profit from it.
It also shows how open source devices can be patented.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #274 on: August 04, 2015, 03:34:57 AM »
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Offline a.king21

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #275 on: August 04, 2015, 04:22:40 AM »
It comes at no surprise that Aaron and Lindermann would take some one elses work,make a few mod's,and then claim it as there own -so as to make a profit from it.
It also shows how open source devices can be patented.
My understanding is that if you were to show the patent office in question the open source information, then they would have no choice but to consider revocation.
The question is does anyone want to devote the next 6 months of their time to fight this.
This link might help:  http://www.energeticforum.com/214716-post1486.html


Offline Jimboot

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #276 on: August 04, 2015, 07:29:38 AM »
OR you patent something related to the device. i.e. find a manufacturer who needs your device and provisionally patent say something around the way to manufacture it. Then go to the big players and let them file and pay you for the related patent. There's a good podcast on it. I'll dig it up.




Here you go
http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/how-to-get-paid-for-your-ideas/ I'm surprised you blokes don't do more of this.

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #276 on: August 04, 2015, 07:29:38 AM »
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Offline nelsonrochaa

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #277 on: August 04, 2015, 02:20:14 PM »
My understanding is that if you were to show the patent office in question the open source information, then they would have no choice but to consider revocation.
The question is does anyone want to devote the next 6 months of their time to fight this.
This link might help:  http://www.energeticforum.com/214716-post1486.html

Hi King21,
 i think to protect  the opensource rights  you have to register GPL of opensource . This will permit that any person that use this information even opensource may pay a royalties to the author .
About the other patents , is a problem when is not a mundial patent but is so expensive to make and maintain because is only valid for a year , :) is more like a suck € machine :).
My advice is register in GPL opensource and maybe can receive some contribution of royalties if there is the choice of author.

Online ramset

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #278 on: August 04, 2015, 04:04:44 PM »
Thinking that we have open source rights on a suppressed or restricted technology is a pipe dream,

PERIOD

Applying for any sort of protection thru government agencies whether patents or other venues is like handing a man a stick to beat you with.

too many bruised inventors around....


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #278 on: August 04, 2015, 04:04:44 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #279 on: August 04, 2015, 04:08:38 PM »
Capturing output directly from a fluctuating spark plug "Plasma Field" by igniting the water inside a pickup coil would achieve O.U. Wraping the wire coils over a glass tube might help insulate the copper from the high heat. Injecting a tiny amount of water mist directly into the output coil core would fuel the reaction. The "Electro Chemical" plasma transition event alone produces a magnetic field that generates electricity when it collapses. This resembles the "Keshe" reactor.

The spark plug can run in from one side and slide toward the center of the glass lined coil core, and the mist injector can face it from the opposite end. This should generate enough power to run itself, supplied just by the water.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 08:40:34 PM by synchro1 »

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #280 on: August 04, 2015, 07:15:17 PM »
Hi All,

This may be half baked but looking at general motor 101 design we know that when a wire is subjected to a uniform magnetic field it deforms the field around it.

If the wire is held stationary and briefly pulsed the vectors add to one side of the field while subtracting from the other based on the magnitude/current and falloff.

Attached are some basic references from motor design books.

So here is an interesting thought place a fixed copper bus bar through the middle of two fixed magnets with fixed pickup coils on the top and bottom. Then the bus bar is pulsed with bi-phasic DC or straight AC to shift the field back and forth through the coils.

I've been doing some tests with a fixed coil in a uniform field but haven't tried the bus bar geometry yet. Attached is a picture of one current test setup, it's two 6"x2" ceramic magnets with a fixed coil and smaller pickup coils(6) in the middle. It's powered from 6x 3000F ultra caps in series(500F) charged to 14vdc, currently dc pulsed with a irlz44n. The switching frequency, generated/adjustable by the Arduino, is around 630hz in this example, with two output coils in parallel going out to a 27watt Ultra-Tow led floodlight. This version has a poor output but testing continues.

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #280 on: August 04, 2015, 07:15:17 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #281 on: August 05, 2015, 12:55:37 AM »
What you say makes perfect sense.  If I rewrote it I would use the terms "inductive kickback pulse" or "flyback pulse" instead of BEMF in order to be clearer.  I will try to keep that in mind for the future.  I think the message still got through though because Tinman and Luc will discussing collecting pulses off of the motor from PWM excitation when the MOSFET turns off or possibly from the brushes themselves.  I assumed that was what Jimboot was referring to.

For what it's worth I normally use the term CEMF for what's going on in the armature.  That is also legitimately referred to as BEMF like you indicated.   And Farmhand also has a valid point in referring to the flyback pulse as forward EMF.

MileHigh

Well it goes without saying that when people refer to Forward emf as Back emf some will get confused by that, naturally. I sometimes refer to the "inductive kickback" as "Inductive energy release" which I think is valid also. I don't think "Inductive kick back" is a very technical or scientific term is it ? A better term would be returned emf.

Better in my opinion to refer to Counter emf as Cemf and the flyback as flyback or Returned emf or Inductive energy return or anything except Back emf. But if people want to confuse each other then we should just keep using Back emf to refer to Forward emf.  :)

..

.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #282 on: August 05, 2015, 01:11:52 AM »
Thinking that we have open source rights on a suppressed or restricted technology is a pipe dream,

PERIOD

Applying for any sort of protection thru government agencies whether patents or other venues is like handing a man a stick to beat you with.

too many bruised inventors around....

Inventing things and patenting them is a legal way to make money and it works. But it is an act of asking for permission to prosecute others for using your inventions to make money without your permission, enforcing the patent is not an easy feat in itself. Nor should it be.

The way I see it if I don't ask then I won't get refused. I make it a rule to never ask the Authorities for permission to do something, then there is no refusal.

..

Dave45

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #283 on: August 05, 2015, 03:10:13 AM »
Well it goes without saying that when people refer to Forward emf as Back emf some will get confused by that, naturally. I sometimes refer to the "inductive kickback" as "Inductive energy release" which I think is valid also. I don't think "Inductive kick back" is a very technical or scientific term is it ? A better term would be returned emf.

Better in my opinion to refer to Counter emf as Cemf and the flyback as flyback or Returned emf or Inductive energy return or anything except Back emf. But if people want to confuse each other then we should just keep using Back emf to refer to Forward emf.  :)

..

.

So dont you think Cemf turns into flyback when the magnetic field collapses.

Or am I missing something ,,, please explain

Offline Magluvin

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Re: TinMan Generator Research Moderated Topic
« Reply #284 on: August 05, 2015, 04:14:43 AM »
So dont you think Cemf turns into flyback when the magnetic field collapses.

Or am I missing something ,,, please explain

What he is saying is there is quite a bit of confusion of terms when it comes to this.

Reverse emf, counter emf, back emf, all seem to say that there is a reverse voltage coming from the coil when the 'forward' input is removed. Flyback is a whole other thing that has to do with cathode ray tubes, old tvs, oscilloscopes.

But in 'most' cases, when the input is removed from the coil, the field collapse causes current in the same direction through the coil as the current that was input.

Reverse emf typically is what happens when an inductor is being charged, building a field. The mag field of each winding in reference to every other winding induces the other windings to produce a reverse emf than the direction of the input emf. This is why it takes time for the coil to flow max current, because the input emf has to overcome the self induced emf during that time period. Once at max current flow and max field build, there is no more expanding flux to cut the windings thus zero reverse emf and full current is allowed to flow.

Now, I do have a theory that there can be a reverse output from the coil when the forward input is removed, but the switch would have to perfect or maybe near perfect in its ability to fully turn off in the presence of the high voltage developed by the collapse. I think that the coils self capacitance can cause the coil to oscillate, probably at very high freq, and when the field collapses and there is no path for the forward current to go when the perfect switch turns off, the voltage build on the coil end leads is basically being stored in the coils capacitance. When that voltage peaks, then current is reversed in the coil and able to say flow back to the source through say a diode in reverse across the switch.

There may be circumstances where a not so perfect switch could do the job.

In Circuit sim, you can do the experiment. On the first circuit shown when you bring up the applet, delete the cap, wire and resistor to the left of the inductor, then connect a diode across the switch with 2 wires. Also reduce the resistor below in the circuit to be more realistic to what the inductor might be in ohms.

The switch in this case is pretty much a perfect switch. When it is off, there is no hv from the coil collapse going anywhere, so the collapse current ends up after a half cycle of oscillation, going 'back' to the source through the diode in a reverse direction than what was input. So with the diode and a switch that can withstand the emf pressure of the coil collapse, I think there can be an actual reverse emf from the coil.

Possibly a Tesla rotary switch can disconnect fast enough to overcome field collapse voltage of a charged coil.

Mags

 

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