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Author Topic: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor  (Read 132695 times)

Semi

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #210 on: January 09, 2023, 02:43:29 PM »
Hi nix85,
It's ok, i seen that marked frame. But don't you see what you call first and third block are but parts of one plate with square hole in the center.
there is no U-Plate and no square hole in the center, period.
I know this was for a very long time, a widely accepted theory. Even myself seen this U-Plate shape swinging.
But after I've got the 4K footage, this changed totally.

But let's say 1st and 3rd block are magnets as you say. Ok, so rotor is attracted to these blocks.
Yea swinging ARC is resting on the "blocks", and how do you u imagine the neutralization here?

The rotor is attracted if one or both of the ARC plates are pulled back. If both are sitting on the blocks, the rotor can pass.
This can be seen in the last mentioned frame 1892, rotor is passing while top and bottom of the blocks are "covered" with the ARC plates.
It can also been seen, in frame 2537, the bottom side ARC plates, or rather the whole bar is not swinging, and the top side has this "empty"
ARC placed, while the rotor is always capable of passing.

For my test rig, I've figured that there must be more than one configuration possible. Which I couldn't figure out in theory, so tried it myself in
different combinations. I also took the "walls" left and right within my considerations. Here some possible configurations. (it is just a sketch)

Regardless of the polarization, there is a config, when the bottom and top plate is in place, the front plate (my rotor equivalent), dropped.
If one of both is not in place, it is attracted. Pretty simple actually. And yes, you need quite some force to pull it apart. Which I guess
was the reason of building such a massive rig with pull back springs and pneumatic or rather hydraulic.

My deepest apologies for this very late response of mine. But I still hope this answers your questions to your satisfaction?!

Cheers
Semi

 

nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #211 on: February 10, 2023, 11:22:47 PM »
Hi Semi. First of all, it would be nice for sake of everyone that you keep images under 800px width,
like this it's impossible to read the thread. If you want to attach extra sized pictures you can link to
some image hosting service like https://imgbb.com/

Hi nix85,there is no U-Plate and no square hole in the center, period.
I know this was for a very long time, a widely accepted theory. Even myself seen this U-Plate shape
swinging.
But after I've got the 4K footage, this changed totally.

I am looking at the still frame, both unmarked and marked and the HD video again

https://s-em-i.github.io/s-em-i.github.io-SecretsOfLueling/Frames/1892.jpeg
https://s-em-i.github.io/s-em-i.github.io-SecretsOfLueling/Frames/1892_Marked.jpeg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT_UIpbFKc0

it is quite obvious that what you call blocks 1, 2 and 3 are one piece with U cut out in the middle.
But if they are one piece or not does not really matter, function matters.

Quote
The rotor is attracted if one or both of the ARC plates are pulled back. If both are sitting on
the blocks, the rotor can pass.
This can be seen in the last mentioned frame 1892, rotor is passing while top and bottom of the
blocks are "covered" with the ARC plates.
It can also been seen, in frame 2537, the bottom side ARC plates, or rather the whole bar is not swinging, and the top side has this "empty"
ARC placed, while the rotor is always capable of passing.

For my test rig, I've figured that there must be more than one configuration possible. Which I
couldn't figure out in theory, so tried it myself in
different combinations. I also took the "walls" left and right within my considerations. Here some
possible configurations. (it is just a sketch)

Regardless of the polarization, there is a config, when the bottom and top plate is in place, the front
plate (my rotor equivalent), dropped.
If one of both is not in place, it is attracted. Pretty simple actually. And yes, you need quite some
force to pull it apart. Which I guess
was the reason of building such a massive rig with pull back springs and pneumatic or rather
hydraulic.

My deepest apologies for this very late response of mine. But I still hope this answers your questions
to your satisfaction?!

Cheers
Semi

Let's hear Luling again

"this is a rotor which is attracted by a system and the rotor runs until the  sticky point at this shortly
before the sticky points a neutralization of the magnet takes place so the rotor can turn on"

Just wanted to remind he does confirm it works by attraction which is neutralized at sticky point.

"The rotor is attracted if one or both of the ARC plates are pulled back. If both are sitting on the blocks, the rotor can pass."

That is basically what i have been saying, rotor is a magnet and it's attracted to the U shaped piece
of iron and what you call ARC plates is a counter magnet neutralizing the attraction at sticky point.
Suppose this is the case, pulling the ARC plates from the U shape requires work. You say it yourself

"And yes, you need quite some force to pull it apart."

So that is clearly no good, if that force is not eliminated motor will be underunity. I suspect he either
eliminated or almost eliminated the need for this work. This is the key point i have been talking about.

My idea how this might be done is by well known principle, that two repelling magnets can be made to
attract or neither attract nor repel with iron plate of proper thickness for particular distance
of the magnets, attraction and repulsion can be perfectly balanced so that they pass by without drag.

Screen made of a repelling magnet(s) covered with iron plate of proper thickness can screen the
passing magnet from whatever is behind the screen, a piece of iron or another attracting or repelling magnet
.

Obviously, simplest and best case is if it screens from piece of iron since iron will not interact with
the screen, if behind the screen is another magnet, be it repelling or attracting, then screen must
be calibrated for that situation.

Similar to how repulsion is neutralized in this old principle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJhKyOjGClg

It is of no particular importance to know exactly how Luling did it as much as it is to understand fully
this principle, and more so, that screen made of repelling magnet covered with iron of proper
thickness can shield a magnet from both another magnet or another piece of iron with virtually no drag.

Such screen is the holy grail, where forces are perfectly balanced, it is possible to screen the
magnetic field with minimal energy input.

In case of Luling or any motor of this kind, as rotor magnet approaches the sticky point
neutralization screen would be inserted and rotor would pass on uninterrupted.

Cheers
Nix

nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #212 on: February 11, 2023, 05:02:54 AM »
I made a quick sketch how wankel type motor with neutralizer screen would work.

Magnet falls toward the sticky point doing useful work, at the sticky point neutralizer
is inserted by a plunger or similar mechanism and kept there just long enough until
magnet leaves the area and cylcle repeats, 3 steps.

Actual motor should use 2 big rotor magnets like Luling, so neutralizer would jump in and out
two times per revolution.

For optimal deisgn, rotor magnets should not be neodyimium but samarium cobalt, or some
medium strength permanent magnets like that, so relatively thin screen of neos can screen them.

Good screen should be made, optimized so that drag is practically zero, then energy to insert and
remove the screen will also be practically zero. And all that energy from magnet falling toward the
sticky point is free.

If you have any doubts that repulsion between magnets can be perfectly neturalized, in fact
so perfectly they can be kept at a small distance in perfect balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKGoXD8P5A

TommeyReed

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #213 on: February 11, 2023, 05:15:22 AM »
Hi All,

This is my design using mechanics to avoid magnet flux.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26tjw75iXuo&t=54s


Tom

nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #214 on: February 11, 2023, 08:01:16 AM »
In actual motor there should be two slopes, two sticky points, two magnets and two neutralizers on opposite sides.

TommeyReed

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #215 on: February 11, 2023, 12:16:03 PM »
Hi nix85,

Now that I have a real prototype, I can see that the best way would be looking at the gear ratio. As the linear drive moves in on direction a complete 120degress of mechanical movement is produced. if you have 4 magnets set at 90,180,225 and 360deg this could increase speed, but testing is really needed. The Magnets need to be close in the center of the shaft to repel the linear drive from the inside. Magnet cogging is far less then having it in the circumference of the flywheel where it would slow down.

Thanks for you opinion.

Testing is needed...

Tom

nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #216 on: February 11, 2023, 08:17:49 PM »
Hi Tommey, i have seen many ideas similar to yours, most of them 10+ years old. I believe the
wankel + zero cog neutralizer combination is far far more efficient than other designs, cog wheels
only add to inefficiency + lack of zero cog neutralizer such system is doomed in the start. But
you should of course test it if you believe in it.

One of countless similar designs without a neutralizer using pistons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrD_TYpXnsc




nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #217 on: February 11, 2023, 08:40:11 PM »
For neutralizer single layer of neodymium magnets should be used, i would use small cubes cause
magnets have high flux near the edges and weak in the middle so if you use big magnets there is
obviously an irregularity which many tiny magnets solve. They should be forced as close together as
possible inside an iron sleeve/box, i'd use 1 or 2mm wall thickness, to force them together a thick iron
plate should be temporarily placed on the outside until they are as close as possible, then box should
be sealed. Then neutralizer should be placed at predicted distance from the rotor magnet and additional
layers of thin iron should be glued if needed to find perfect balance where there is no attraction nor
repulsion. When this is achieved a good mechanism should be made akin to linear motor or a plunger
that can insert the screen in the desired position fast and remove it. If forces are balanced energy
needed to do this will be minimal and big rotor magnet will be effortlessly shielded from the sticky point.

--

I have been accused by a troll here, we can see now who is 'arrogant and condescending' and 'a flamer,
not a true helper', and who actually gives valuable help and solutions. But nevermind.

nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #218 on: February 11, 2023, 08:57:10 PM »
And another cool old design using shielded repulsion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAQAiK60FcU

TommeyReed

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #219 on: February 11, 2023, 10:05:55 PM »
Hi nix85,

Interesting design, have you built any of them? The problem with drawings it base on theories, I think you already know other expect a real prototype.

I know you already know that by now, but it is something that also needs to be looked at in the future.

I have no problem working with you to create a prototypes if you like, I have the basic skills to copy basic drawings.

Keep up the good work.

Tom.

nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #220 on: February 11, 2023, 11:16:30 PM »
Hi Tommey, i have not built either of these designs, i am busy with another project, actually i
got myself a bunch of ferrite magnets few months ago to try my wankel idea that eliminates
the need for a neutralizer, but i have not tried it yet.

But this principle of balancing repulsion with iron plate of proper thickness is well known.
There is no question that magnet can be shielded that way with little or no drag and that
is what matters. It is the simplest and most powerful approach of all magnet only motors.

Keep up the good work as well.

Nix

nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #221 on: February 13, 2023, 02:33:23 AM »
Another magnet only idea. As you can see, whole inner circumference is one pole and rotor is
repelling it at an angle, caged in iron on the sides.

It could be made using many small magnets forced together as shown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_LlzZuvD3k

r2fpl

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #222 on: February 13, 2023, 09:16:43 AM »
For there to be movement, there must be a gradient. There will be no gradient in the circle!

lesleyharrell

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #223 on: February 13, 2023, 05:19:02 PM »
Thank you! I appreciate the encouragement. I understand that balancing repulsion and attraction of magnets can be a key factor in designing a successful motor. Shielding magnets with iron plates can certainly help to minimize drag, but it's important to make sure that the right thickness of the iron plates is used to ensure optimal performance. I will keep experimenting and learning more about this field, and I hope to make some breakthroughs in the future. If there is anything I can assist with, feel free to ask!

nix85

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Re: Friedrich Luling Magnet Motor
« Reply #224 on: February 13, 2023, 07:26:19 PM »
Untrue, that is why rotor magnet is slanted so there is always an asymmetry/unbalance of forces.