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Author Topic: Basic Free Energy Device  (Read 29776 times)

Offline Dbowling

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2015, 01:45:01 AM »
Bill,
I responded to you already. I'm sorry that the meaning of my words was not something you were able to understand.

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2015, 01:45:01 AM »

Offline Hoppy

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2015, 09:31:38 AM »
.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2015, 12:33:35 PM »

The big issue is that there is NO WAY to accurately measure the voltage being used to run the motor, since it is running between TWO POSITIVES. The closest I can come is to put that same motor connected to that same generator running the same load on a power supply and increase the voltage until the rpm's of the motor are the same as when it is running on the system. So that will ALWAYS be an approximation.


the point of reference to be measured is the two contact terminals of the motor.

from your human perspective, there is two positive poles of the batteries. but from the motors point of view, there is only the difference in voltage between the + and - terminals.
for instance, if one series batteries show you 24v, parallel ones show you 12v,
then what the motor sees is something like 24 - 12 = 12v

the current is a bit more complicated. because of the orientation of the batteries, there is less resistance in the opposite direction of the voltage potential. so the current builds up a capacitance, until it can overcome the difference in resistance, then current spikes into the batteries and they take on an amount of charge.

this will show on the scope as a change in voltage drop across the motor, though change in current may be harder to analyze because of the sample rates and the way the inductance varies over time with the reverse-bias current of the charging batteries. if your meter has a capacitor tester, you can check the capacitance of the motor circuit, that may shed some light on the mathematical side of that part of the circuit.
but even things like wire orientation can make a big difference with how the motor responds to change.

I believe you will find it harder to accurately measure or calculate the exact energy flow through that part of the circuit.
its better to take a step back and black-box the thing, measure your output to the load vs total battery capacity.
that will tell you your average I/O energy values more accurately.

once you can verify that the load consumes more than the batteries have available, without recharging them.....
then you can justify the further time and expense of taking a real look at the motor / battery interactions.



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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2015, 12:33:35 PM »
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Offline Dbowling

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2015, 04:38:23 PM »
So basically you are affirming my statement that it is difficult to measure exactly how much power is consumed by the motor in this setup. A statement that was misquoted by Farmhand and then termed "rubbish".


I agree that measuring the power output of the generator IS the most accurate thing that can be measured, but that discounts the fact that there is a motor running here that is consuming power the entire time, and to say that a comparison of the power output to what is left in the batteries is what determines the worthiness of this setup completely ignores that part of the equation.


That is the same as saying that if I have a motor running off a single battery that is turning a generator I only get to count the power produced by the generator as what the system produced without taking into consideration that the motor powering the generator consumed energy that the system was responsible for producing also.


But that's ok. It will come down to the data, and people can make their own judgements. From what I have seen on the runs I have done so far, the CCA on these old batteries is slowly going up a bit and the voltage is slightly increasing over time, even though I continue to power loads. But I'm throwing all that out the window.


My proposal is this:
When I return from this trip (on the way to the airport in just a few minutes) I will begin with a brand new set of batteries. I will use SMALL batteries so that my expense is less, and it can be more easily replicated. I will do shorter runs so that the C20 rate on the batteries is not exceeded, and possibly smaller loads.
But I will record the voltage and the CCA measurement after every run. If the meter shows that the CCA on the batteries is maintained and the voltage is maintained despite the fact that I am running a motor turning a generator and running a load, that should be proof enough for anybody that there is something to this. I will keep a record of the output of the generator ONLY as the "Output" of the system. Does that sound fair enough? That SHOULD be enough to indicate that the motor is running "for free" if the system is able to maintain.


But let's be clear about something. My interest in this system is NOT and has NEVER BEEN that it outputs MORE energy than is input. My interest has been that it is able to maintain the batteries at NEAR the initial voltage despite the fact that the motor has been running the entire time. With a two coil generator connected to a stock motor pulsed with an external commutator, we had the motor running on a path of 40 watts and the generator was producing 90 watts but better than 80% of what the motor was consuming was recaptured by the "charge batteries." I have video of that. It was NOT my design, but I replicated it and verified the results. And then I built a monster unit that I am still testing. By the way, I would post that video, but it is not mine to share. And I took no video of my replication. I do, however have video of my big monster machine running and I have posted video of THAT at energetic forum on several occasions. One of those videos shows me lighting two 120 volt bulbs from a wall plug, measuring the volts and amps, then running those same two bulbs off my generator powered by the razor scooter motor producing equal voltage and amps off of one coil, then shorting out a second coil to show that when I did so, it would speed up. That was the FIRST generation of my generator, which has been rebuilt and modified a number of times since then. Unfortunately, I did NOT also show the volts and amps used to run the motor, since it was running on THIS kind of circuit and I couldn't figure out a way to show how much was being consumed by the motor. Anyway. I can post that video when I get back. No time. Leaving for airport now.

Offline seychelles

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2015, 07:32:00 PM »
HI ALL MY CONTRIBUTION THE SWITCHING CIRCUIT WITHOUT
 DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY TERMINAL AND CAN BE AUTOMATIC..

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2015, 07:32:00 PM »
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Offline seychelles

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2015, 07:38:18 PM »
STEP 1

Offline seychelles

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2015, 07:44:12 PM »
STEP 2

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2015, 07:44:12 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2015, 01:49:46 AM »
Bill,
I responded to you already. I'm sorry that the meaning of my words was not something you were able to understand.

I was not talking to you, I was talking to Farmhand but, I guess, just like self-looping, you were not able to grasp that concept either.

Bill

Offline seychelles

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2015, 06:30:04 AM »
HI ALL I AM PLEASE TO SEE THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE TRIED AND
PROVED THAT THIS CIRCUIT WORKS. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW
IT WORKS BUT WHEN I LOOK AT THIS CIRCUIT I WAS THINKING HOW
 THE HECK CAN I DO THIS WITHOUT DISCONECTING THE BATTERIES ,
AND VOILA IS THE CIRCUIT AS ABOVE. NOW IF AFTER SO MANY YEARS WE
CAN NOT TELL IF :) THE THREE BATTERIES ARE FULLY CHARGED AFTER THE
PROCESS WE SHOULD ALL GO BACK TO KINDER GARDEN..PEACE LOVE

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2015, 06:30:04 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2015, 08:34:35 PM »
seychelles,

You have drawn a nice switching circuit, but that is not what Dave is using.  Look at his post #20.  That is the circuit he is using.  He is using 4 batteries and the booster is connected to the motor not the generator.  Your circuit will give you some long run times but it won't give the same results as the circuit Dave is using.  You also need to know that the flywheel and pulsing the motor are a key part to getting this to work correctly.  But you can get very long run times without the flywheel or pulse motor.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Offline citfta

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2015, 08:40:56 PM »
I was not talking to you, I was talking to Farmhand but, I guess, just like self-looping, you were not able to grasp that concept either.

Bill

How do you propose that Dave self-loop his device?  His batteries are staying charged so where does he put the output back into the input to self-loop?  You want him to overcharge his batteries?

Respectfully,
Carroll

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2015, 08:40:56 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2015, 02:21:55 AM »

I agree that measuring the power output of the generator IS the most accurate thing that can be measured, but that discounts the fact that there is a motor running here that is consuming power the entire time, and to say that a comparison of the power output to what is left in the batteries is what determines the worthiness of this setup completely ignores that part of the equation.


That is the same as saying that if I have a motor running off a single battery that is turning a generator I only get to count the power produced by the generator as what the system produced without taking into consideration that the motor powering the generator consumed energy that the system was responsible for producing also.


maybe Bill is right on you missing the point, but I'm going to give this one more try...

if the motor and generator were identical, energy consumed by the motor is exactly the same as energy output by the generator.
Minus the losses - i.e.: friction, heat, back-EMF, and other inefficiencies in the conversion.

I believe you said you rewound at least one of them, so this equality must be adjusted to account for change in voltage and current, inductance, capacitance, resistance changes.

However, they can still be treated as separate from the system as a whole. or at least ignored for the sake of black-box analysis.
the output from the generator is a reflection of the consumption ( or load) on the motor.
If you have added additional load to the same motor, that changes everything, but otherwise
it doesn't matter what the motor is consuming at any point in time, or over time at all......
   The generator output, if compared to the drain on the batteries over time will tell you every detail of whats going on inside the rest of the circuit.

reverse foyer transform of a loop around the outside of the device, can describe an equivalent circuit of the inside.
I don't expect you to understand this,
 so I will say again - the output of the generator is a reflection of the consumption of the motor.
if your motor has anything close to today's standard of DC motor efficiency, the difference between the two is rather small, resulting from losses.

Also - FYI: if you put your meter between two +'s, what you will see is the difference between the two.
for instance, 24 on one side, 12 on the other, you will measure 12v between the two.
   the larger one being the + terminal

voltage is hardly ever known. What we know is voltage difference between two points.
one of those points is often our perspective circuit ground, so we assign a numerical value to the voltage based on that,
in reality everything can be sitting at a true potential of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of volts with respect to a point at true 0v






Offline seychelles

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2015, 06:57:28 AM »
HI CARROL THE CIRCUIT IS ADAPTABLE TO THE SITUATION ONLY FEW DIFF
IS THAT THE BATTERY BEING CHARGE IS TWO BATERIES IN PARALLEL..
AND ONE THING I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY HIS BOOSTER HAS ONLY THREE
THREE CONNECTIONS..THE MOTOR IS TURNING RIGHT WHY NOT TURN GEN
THEN BOOST TO INCREASE VOLTAGE TO CHARGE THE TWO BATTS BEING
THE MAIN POWER SOURCE.. :)

Offline citfta

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2015, 01:03:56 PM »
Hi seychelles,

I think you could probably boost the generator output to charge the primary batteries.  However the purpose of the boost circuit as Dave is using it is to increase the speed of the motor and it also helps to maintain the voltage going to the motor when the primary batteries start to drop in voltage as they slowly discharge.  By using the boost circuit on the motor Dave is able to keep the output of the generator at a steady level.   By rotating the batteries Dave has found there is no need to charge the primary batteries other than  just by rotating them.  Also John Bedini has said several times that you shouldn't try to charge batteries at the same time you are discharging them.  Also Matt Jones has reported that you get the best results by not swapping the batteries until the charge batteries are fully charged.  I hope this information is helpful.  I am sure Dave will be able to answer better when he is able to respond.  He and Matt have put in thousands of hours on this system.  I have also worked on it when I had some spare time.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Offline Dbowling

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Re: Basic Free Energy Device
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2015, 04:55:42 AM »
I am back from spending time helping my recently widowed mother get her house in shape to sell, so now I have time to spend on this while working on other major projects.


First, here is the really discouraging part for me. I brought this here for people to replicate a simple little device that costs less than $10.00 in parts if you have a few batteries lying around, and yet not ONE person here bothered to build it and report positive or negative results. Just a bunch of naysayers posting that it won't work.


There are several folks who HAVE built this and are posting positive results on the other forum and though emails directly to me.


I got four brand new deep cycle lawn and garden batteries today. If you hook a Motor to a battery, do you get to count the motor as a load? If the motor is then used to turn a generator which runs a light do you get to count the light as a load? I am running both a motor and a light with power produced from this system.

I'm going to hook the whole setup up for a few seconds and let it run long enough to get an RPM reading on the motor running the generator with my light bulb as a load. Then I am going to hook that same motor up to a power supply and adjust the volts and amps on the power supply until the motor is running at the EXACT same rpm. That will tell me EXACTLY how much power  SHOULD BE consumed by the motor to turn the generator with the light at a load at this rpm.. I know that power ISN'T being consumed by the motor...it is passing THROUGH the motor to the charge battery, but it should be fair to count it as power the system "uses" since any OTHER system would use that much power to run the motor. To that we can add the output of the generator into the load. Those two added together are the total power "produced" by the system. If the batteries can power the motor and power the small light while maintaining their charge and their CCA rating, is that enough to prove there is something to this? I believe it SHOULD be, but who knows what the skeptics are going to say. I know the first thing they will say is that the output to the light bulb is not constant and we need to measure it CONSTANTLY, or what the TOTAL output to the light is. They will also say that the rpm's of the motor fluctuate so we don't have an accurate measurement of what the motor is using. In other words, anything to drag attention away from the fact that the motor is running and the light is running and the voltage and CCA on the batteries are going UP instead of DOWN. I am not going to argue with you people about looping. If YOU want to take the time to try and figure out a way to loop this system, go for it. I am perfectly content to have a setup that keeps all my batteries charged and runs my generator for free. If that is not good enough for you, sorry.

Dave

 

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