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Author Topic: The bearing motor  (Read 58085 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2015, 01:16:34 PM »
It can spin in either direction since the polarity of the magnetic field reverses with a change in the current direction (there's no net change, so the force is in the same direction).  This is a universal motor where it runs on both AC and DC.


Gravock

Quote
This is a universal motor where it runs on both AC and DC.

Please provide a link to a universal motor that will run in either direction on a DC current without switching the polarity of current flow.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2015, 01:16:34 PM »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2015, 08:27:57 PM »
Guy's
No current need flow through the magnet in order for the magnet to spin. The opposite effect to this can be seen in the homopolar generator.

I would need to see that to believe it.   If you take 2 disk mags and have them face each other say 1in apart, and the magnets are set up do they can spin on axis, if you spin one, the other wont spin. There is zero force on the other magnet to spin with the other.

Likewise, we cant get the disk magnet to spin using dc through a wire, no matter the position or orientation of that current carrying wire. The field from the wire will only affect the magnet as a whole, not as if the field lines are teeth of a gear and torques the magnet into rotation.

The key idea of having the ring magnet mounted to the copper disk in a homo polar dynamo is the fact that the magnet rotates with the disk yet the disk still produces current. But if we mount a magnet to the end of a coil and move the magnet and coil through space, what ever direction, we get no current in the coil. So the solid ring magnet mounted to the copper disk and when they rotate together, current is produced in the disk, is a very very special case in point.   

The very foundation of that destroys the idea that there are no field lines along with the idea of change in field strength on a conductor is needed to produce mutually inducted currents in the conductor.

But this is pretty much the only special case for that argument. At least that I know of.

What attracts me to the idea of having the ring magnet attached to the rotating copper disk is the possibility of no drag when currents are sent to a load..  Typical gens need increase in input as the load increases. But here with the magnet spinning with the disk, if we draw current from the disk, is there a need for more input torque to overcome drag/lenz? And if so, with the mag spinning with the disk, what is causing the drag if the 2 components are mounted and spinning as one?

So say if there is no drag. Is that the secret to a true lenzless gen? ;) And if there is drag, what are we dragging against? The field itself, as these fields are all around us?  If so, then that is possibly the holy grail of solid state motion devices. If we can drag against it, then we should be able to produce motion with it by pushing and/or pulling against it, like a silent ufo, car, plane, etc.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2015, 10:52:20 PM »
I would need to see that to believe it.   If you take 2 disk mags and have them face each other say 1in apart, and the magnets are set up do they can spin on axis, if you spin one, the other wont spin. There is zero force on the other magnet to spin with the other.



And what I mean by that is, sure, if we mount the magnet to the disk, the magnet will spin with it without current flowing through the mag, but its the disk with current flowing through the radius that physically carries the magnet into motion. The magnets mass is just additional baggage, extra weight. Faradays experiments show that if we apply current through a stationary disk that the magnet will not rotate, even though its fields are being altered by the fields of the current carrying disk.  So if the magnet were not mounted on an axle and were free to move like on a gimbal, then the magnet would physically move, but not in a continuous rotating fashion.

Now, if we simulated a ring magnet with a bunch of little magnets mounted to a say plastic disk, then mounted that to a copper disk and spin the whole assy, there wont be current in the disk. There is a big difference between a solid ring mag and one that is made up of say 10 1in dia disk mags mounted in a circle. When the ring mag is solid, the fields are not dragged around when the ring spins on axis, but the ring mag made of a bunch of individual mags does.

Mags

Mags

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2015, 10:52:20 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #93 on: June 08, 2015, 12:08:26 AM »
Please provide a link to a universal motor that will run in either direction on a DC current without switching the polarity of current flow.

Reversing the current in a homopolar configuration will reverse the polarity of the induced magnetic field (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree?  Reversing the polarity of the externally applied magnetic field (PM) in a homopolar configuration will reverse the rotation direction (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree with this?  As we can see, in the bearing motor, reversing the current will reverse the direction of the force.  However, reversing the current also reverses the polarity of the induced magnetic field, which this reversal in the polarity of the magnetic field will once again reverse the direction of the Lorenz force......which results in no net change in the direction of the Lorenz force.

You asked for a reference link to a universal motor that will run in either direction on a DC current without switching the polarity of current flow.  Reference link:  Electromagnetic Induction and the Conservation of Momentum in the Spiral Paradox

Gravock

Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2015, 12:35:35 AM »


Gravock

Quote
Reversing the current in a homopolar configuration will reverse the polarity of the induced magnetic field (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree?

No ,i do not disagree

  Reversing the polarity of the externally applied magnetic field (PM) in a homopolar configuration will reverse the rotation direction (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree with this?

The force produced by the current carrying wire remains in the same direction. You have done nothing more than turn the motor upsidedown.

Quote
As we can see, in the bearing motor, reversing the current will reverse the direction of the force.

No ,it dose not.

Quote
However, reversing the current also reverses the polarity of the induced magnetic field, which this reversal in the polarity of the magnetic field will once again reverse the direction of the Lorenz force......which results in no net change in the direction of the Lorenz force.

No,regardless of which way the current is flowing,the rotation direction is set by the initial spin direction-->it is not determined by the direction of current flow. The right hand rule dose not apply here.

Quote
When you reverse the rotation direction in the bearing motor, you also reverse both the direction of the induced current and the induced magnetic field.

You do no such thing. Current flow remains in the same direction.

 
Quote
If you disagree with this, then you need to explain why this motor doesn't operate as a generator.
 

Because the lorentz force is not applicable in this motor in its current understanding.

Quote
As we can clearly see in the homopolar motors, reversing both the current direction and the polarity of the externally applied magnetic field (PM) simultaneously results in no net change in the direction of the Lorenz force.

Yes,but in the bearing motor we do not have to reverse anything in order for it to spin in the opposite direction.
The direction of rotation is the direction of initial spin before current is applied.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2015, 12:35:35 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #95 on: June 08, 2015, 01:09:00 AM »


   

So say if there is no drag. Is that the secret to a true lenzless gen? ;) And if there is drag, what are we dragging against? The field itself, as these fields are all around us?  If so, then that is possibly the holy grail of solid state motion devices. If we can drag against it, then we should be able to produce motion with it by pushing and/or pulling against it, like a silent ufo, car, plane, etc.

Mags

Quote
I would need to see that to believe it.   If you take 2 disk mags and have them face each other say 1in apart, and the magnets are set up do they can spin on axis, if you spin one, the other wont spin. There is zero force on the other magnet to spin with the other.

First-in the above experiment,your magnets are to far apart,and you now have two flows in the opposite direction. 1 between the two closest faces-say north to south/top to bottom,and 1 between the two outer faces-north to south/bottom to top.
Second-you have no current flowing through the field,and thus the fields do not clamp to the source(magnet)

Quote
Likewise, we cant get the disk magnet to spin using dc through a wire, no matter the position or orientation of that current carrying wire. The field from the wire will only affect the magnet as a whole, not as if the field lines are teeth of a gear and torques the magnet into rotation.

This is because you havnt carried out the correct experiment.

Quote
The key idea of having the ring magnet mounted to the copper disk in a homo polar dynamo is the fact that the magnet rotates with the disk yet the disk still produces current.
Quote
But if we mount a magnet to the end of a coil and move the magnet and coil through space, what ever direction, we get no current in the coil
. So the solid ring magnet mounted to the copper disk and when they rotate together, current is produced in the disk, is a very very special case in point.

Incorrect.
If the coil is placed in the same position as the disc,and you electrically connect one end of the coil to the axle and the other end to an outer disc(brush contact ring),and you spin the coil/magnet combo as you would with a homopolar generator,current IS produced.

Quote
What attracts me to the idea of having the ring magnet attached to the rotating copper disk is the possibility of no drag when currents are sent to a load..

CEMF is still produced due to field clamping. When the magnets are fixed,and the rotor spins,the field clamping is between rotor and magnet. When the magnet spins with the rotor,field clamping is between the rotating magnet,disc, and the pickup brush assembly.<--This is the flaw in the homopolar generator.

Quote
Typical gens need increase in input as the load increases. But here with the magnet spinning with the disk, if we draw current from the disk, is there a need for more input torque to overcome drag/lenz? And if so, with the mag spinning with the disk, what is causing the drag if the 2 components are mounted and spinning as one?

Yes,more input torque is required-->explained above.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2015, 02:06:13 AM »
First-in the above experiment,your magnets are to far apart,and you now have two flows in the opposite direction. 1 between the two closest faces-say north to south/top to bottom,and 1 between the two outer faces-north to south/bottom to top.
Second-you have no current flowing through the field,and thus the fields do not clamp to the source(magnet)

This is because you havnt carried out the correct experiment.
. So the solid ring magnet mounted to the copper disk and when they rotate together, current is produced in the disk, is a very very special case in point.

Incorrect.
If the coil is placed in the same position as the disc,and you electrically connect one end of the coil to the axle and the other end to an outer disc(brush contact ring),and you spin the coil/magnet combo as you would with a homopolar generator,current IS produced.

CEMF is still produced due to field clamping. When the magnets are fixed,and the rotor spins,the field clamping is between rotor and magnet. When the magnet spins with the rotor,field clamping is between the rotating magnet,disc, and the pickup brush assembly.<--This is the flaw in the homopolar generator.

Yes,more input torque is required-->explained above.

UUGGH!   I dont think any of us are talking about the same things. ???

Ill have to make some illustrations. Cant do it now.  Working.

Mags

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #96 on: June 08, 2015, 02:06:13 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #97 on: June 08, 2015, 02:11:43 AM »
No ,i do not disagree

  Reversing the polarity of the externally applied magnetic field (PM) in a homopolar configuration will reverse the rotation direction (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree with this?

The force produced by the current carrying wire remains in the same direction. You have done nothing more than turn the motor upsidedown.

No ,it dose not.

No,regardless of which way the current is flowing,the rotation direction is set by the initial spin direction-->it is not determined by the direction of current flow. The right hand rule dose not apply here.

You do no such thing. Current flow remains in the same direction.

   

Because the lorentz force is not applicable in this motor in its current understanding.

Yes,but in the bearing motor we do not have to reverse anything in order for it to spin in the opposite direction.
The direction of rotation is the direction of initial spin before current is applied.

Remember, the force is perpendicular to both the electric and the magnetic field.  In the case of the bearing motor, the rotation direction determines the direction of the induced current and the direction of the induced magnetic field of that induced current.  Reverse the direction of rotation, and we reverse the field direction of the induced magnetic field which interacts with the applied current with a force that is perpendicular to both the electric (applied current) and the induced magnetic field in a direction according to it's rotational direction.  In addition to this, there is another force between the induced current generated in the rotating frame with the induced magnetic field of the applied current in the stationary frame.  You use the left hand rule for one force, and the right hand rule for the other force.

Gravock

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2015, 03:31:33 AM »
Ok, taking a short break.

Here is what I know about a homo polar motor as with a ring magnet and a copper disk close to it on the same axis.

1  If the disk is able to spin and the magnet is stationary, when we apply current to the disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the disk will rotate, and the direction is input polarity dependent. Likewise, if we physically turn the disk, currents will be produced in the disk between the outer edge of the disk and the center axle.

2  If the disk is stationary, and the ring magnet is able to spin, applying current to the disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the magnet will not rotate.  Nor will there be currents in the stationary copper disk if only the magnet is rotated.

3  But if the magnet is attached to the copper disk, so both rotate together, applying current to the copper disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the assembly will turn as one. Likewise, if we spin the whole assy, currents will be produced in the copper disk as previously described.

These things are to do with faradays experiments. I believe the bearing motor is a way different monster.

An experiment of seeming importance here....
So, on the standard homo polar assy using a ring mag and a copper disk, where both are able to rotate freely on the same axis, but independently, if we apply current to the copper disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the copper disk should rotate. But does the magnet rotate also? ;)

That would be an impressive experiment. ;) And it would help understand these things much better.


Mags

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2015, 03:31:33 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2015, 03:32:20 AM »
Remember, the force is perpendicular to both the electric and the magnetic field.  In the case of the bearing motor, the rotation direction determines the direction of the induced current and the direction of the induced magnetic field of that induced current.  Reverse the direction of rotation, and we reverse the field direction of the induced magnetic field which interacts with the applied current with a force that is perpendicular to both the electric (applied current) and the induced magnetic field in a direction according to it's rotational direction.  In addition to this, there is another force between the induced current generated in the rotating frame with the induced magnetic field of the applied current in the stationary frame.  You use the left hand rule for one force, and the right hand rule for the other force.

Gravock


There's no evidence of a net force between the electric field of an applied current with the induced magnetic field of that applied current in a current carrying wire.  This is because both the electric and magnetic fields are in the stationary frame.  However, there is a force between the electric field of the stationary frame with the magnetic field of the rotating frame, and between the magnetic field of the stationary frame with the electric field of the rotating frame.


Gravock

Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #100 on: June 08, 2015, 07:31:33 AM »
Ok, taking a short break.

Here is what I know about a homo polar motor as with a ring magnet and a copper disk close to it on the same axis.

1  If the disk is able to spin and the magnet is stationary, when we apply current to the disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the disk will rotate, and the direction is input polarity dependent. Likewise, if we physically turn the disk, currents will be produced in the disk between the outer edge of the disk and the center axle.

2  If the disk is stationary, and the ring magnet is able to spin, applying current to the disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the magnet will not rotate.  Nor will there be currents in the stationary copper disk if only the magnet is rotated.

3  But if the magnet is attached to the copper disk, so both rotate together, applying current to the copper disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the assembly will turn as one. Likewise, if we spin the whole assy, currents will be produced in the copper disk as previously described.

These things are to do with faradays experiments. I believe the bearing motor is a way different monster.

An experiment of seeming importance here....
So, on the standard homo polar assy using a ring mag and a copper disk, where both are able to rotate freely on the same axis, but independently, if we apply current to the copper disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the copper disk should rotate. But does the magnet rotate also? ;)

That would be an impressive experiment. ;) And it would help understand these things much better.


Mags
There is one thing you missed Mags that may help you understand what im trying to say about field clamping.
You dont need to spin the magnet or the rotor to produce current from a homopolar generator-the two can remain stationary. If you rotate the brushes them self, current is also produced.
In order for you to see that no current need pass through the magnet to make it spin, then  you need two magnets-one either side of a copper disk with minimal gap, and so as it is north one side of the copper disc and south on the other side. Make it like you have joined two magnets together and now have one big magnet. Then if current flows through the copper disc in from the side, and out through a hole in the center of one of the disc magnets, then the magnets will spin. Use ceramic magnets-that way you know current isnt flowing through the magnet it self, as they are non conductive.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #100 on: June 08, 2015, 07:31:33 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #101 on: June 08, 2015, 06:07:34 PM »
There is one thing you missed Mags that may help you understand what im trying to say about field clamping.
You dont need to spin the magnet or the rotor to produce current from a homopolar generator-the two can remain stationary. If you rotate the brushes them self, current is also produced.


Can you show an example of that?   I would say that if there is current it is because the wires going to the brushes( moving the brush wires and brushes) are being induced by the field of the stationary magnet.

Mags

Offline minnie

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2015, 06:57:11 PM »



  Mags,
      good little demo Youtube.  Faraday unipolar generator pt.1.    Plenum  88.
                    John.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2015, 12:15:58 AM »


  Mags,
      good little demo Youtube.  Faraday unipolar generator pt.1.    Plenum  88.
                    John.

Thanks John

Well, if the currents, produced when only the stator brushes are moved, are produced by the stationary disk/mag, this would mean no drag when moving the stator brushes?  Or, it is the conductors of the brushes that are being induced by moving through the field of the stationary magnet and the disk is only making the connection between the brushes.

I have a feeling it is the stator brushes that are getting induced and the currents are not coming from the stationary disk.


Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2015, 01:19:18 AM »
Thanks John

Well, if the currents, produced when only the stator brushes are moved, are produced by the stationary disk/mag, this would mean no drag when moving the stator brushes?  Or, it is the conductors of the brushes that are being induced by moving through the field of the stationary magnet and the disk is only making the connection between the brushes.

I have a feeling it is the stator brushes that are getting induced and the currents are not coming from the stationary disk.


Mags

No current will be produced by moving the stator wires or brushes through the field,as both  the negative and positive side of the wires/brushes are moving together through the same field at the same time,and thus the net result would be zero.

I like this setup where he has counter rotating disc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKr8ub5ZXls


 

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