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### Author Topic: The bearing motor  (Read 69528 times)

#### gravityblock

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3287
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #120 on: June 10, 2015, 01:25:17 PM »
Gravoc
I think you need to revisit your statement.
On one disc we have current flowing from the outer circumference to the center of the disc. On the second disc we have the current flowing from the center of the disc to the outer circumference.  As the disc are the conductors, we now see that the current is flowing through those conductors in opposite directions. How you came up with current is flowing in the same direction through the conductors has me lost. You need to think a little more on the magnetic fields produced by a ring magnet also.

This is when people get lost, when people like yourself go making incorrect statement as youjust did.

Current is flowing on the top disk from the rim to the center (left to right), and the bottom disk the current is flowing from the center to the rim (once again it is still flowing from left to right in the same direction as the top disk).  The current is flowing in the same direction through the same pole of the magnet for both disks.  This means the force is in the same direction for both disks.  Apply a force on the left side of the center of motion and it will rotate in the opposite direction than a force applied in the same direction on the right side of the center of motion.

Gravock

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5886
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #121 on: June 10, 2015, 06:24:48 PM »
Mags
I believe I have a version of the homopolar generator that will have very little CEMF. The CEMF is created at the outer contact brush, so we need to get rid of that brush. I have a design that has both brushes on the shaft, and none around the outer perimeter of the disc.
I will draw it up tonight.

I think we should look at the magnets fields around those brushes and wire connections with an analog hall sensor.  The fields coming out of the magnet face are not beaming straight out of the magnet. They tend to be curved outward almost immediately, especially at the edges of the magnet. So we cannot say that the brushes and their wire connections are not affected by the magnets field when the brushes move alone because the fields of the magnet are not inline with the brush holders and the like.

Mags

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5886
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #122 on: June 10, 2015, 06:36:57 PM »
I think we should look at the magnets fields around those brushes and wire connections with an analog hall sensor.  The fields coming out of the magnet face are not beaming straight out of the magnet. They tend to be curved outward almost immediately, especially at the edges of the magnet. So we cannot say that the brushes and their wire connections are not affected by the magnets field when the brushes move alone because the fields of the magnet are not inline with the brush holders and the like.

Mags

Also, on the outer edges of the mag, the fields bend outward and at the inner edges of the hole in the mag, the fields bend inward.

So now we have 2 moving conductors, the inner brush and the outer brush. The outer brush sees a path that is crossing the outer edge field of the mag, and the inner brush sees a path of mag fields crossing the brush/wire at an opposite angle. So both brushes/wires have complimentary currents in the same direction of the loop circuit of the brushes and their wires.

It should be pretty simple to follow once you visualize the fields and how they are 'cutting' those conductors as the brushes move.  This is all visualized in my head. Dont need to draw it out for me to understand.

Look at this reply page.  Ridiculous.

Mags

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5886
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2015, 06:49:22 PM »
The 'only' thing I find incredibly interesting is the fact that the magnet can spin with the disk and produce currents in the disk. This is the one thing that should be experimented with to see what, if any, advantages that could be had, like the possibility of zero drag/lenz. And if there is drag/lenz, then what are we dragging against if the magnet is moving with the disk?

So there are 2 possibilities for adventure here.  Either there is no drag, of which I think we can all appreciate, or, if there is drag, 'what ever we are dragging against', can that idea be used to cause motion through space with a solid state device.  Like a small device mounted on a small car, where the car moves by pushing or pulling against, 'what ever it is'.

Mags

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5886
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #124 on: June 10, 2015, 07:03:56 PM »
I know some of you think I dont know what Im talking about at times.  But I assure you, I have been around this stuff for some time. And I do have a fairly deep understanding of what is going on here. Thats why at times I just say UUGGHH!!.  Then I collect myself and continue on.

Mags

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2015, 01:06:20 AM »
Current is flowing on the top disk from the rim to the center (left to right), and the bottom disk the current is flowing from the center to the rim (once again it is still flowing from left to right in the same direction as the top disk).  The current is flowing in the same direction through the same pole of the magnet for both disks.  This means the force is in the same direction for both disks.  Apply a force on the left side of the center of motion and it will rotate in the opposite direction than a force applied in the same direction on the right side of the center of motion.

Gravock
You have confused yourself with the position of the wires touching the disc in the video. The fact is,the two wires could be vertical to each other,and the two disc would still rotate in the same directions. So now all you have to do is move one wire 180* around the disc ,so as the two wires are now in a vertical plane. This will help with your confusion about the current flowing in the same direction. Now current is flowing in from left to right on the top disc,and flowing out from right to left on the bottom disc. The position of the two wires on the disc makes no difference to the direction of the discs rotation,unless the polarities are switched.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2015, 01:11:35 AM »
The 'only' thing I find incredibly interesting is the fact that the magnet can spin with the disk and produce currents in the disk. This is the one thing that should be experimented with to see what, if any, advantages that could be had, like the possibility of zero drag/lenz.

So there are 2 possibilities for adventure here.  Either there is no drag, of which I think we can all appreciate, or, if there is drag, 'what ever we are dragging against', can that idea be used to cause motion through space with a solid state device.  Like a small device mounted on a small car, where the car moves by pushing or pulling against, 'what ever it is'.

Mags

Quote
And if there is drag/lenz, then what are we dragging against if the magnet is moving with the disk?

As i stated before,when the magnet moves with the disc,the lorentz force is against the magnetic field and the brushes/brush holders. When the magnets are stationary,then the lorentz force is between the rotating disc and the fixed magnet. This is why we need a setup where both brushes are on the shaft of the generator,and not on the outer perimeter of the disc.

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5886
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2015, 07:54:40 AM »
This is why we need a setup where both brushes are on the shaft of the generator,and not on the outer perimeter of the disc.

Some magnet companies make custom magnets.  So if a tube magnet could be made, say N on the outside of the tube and S on the inside, then just have a copper tube that slides onto the tube magnet. Then we could just put the brushes on the ends of the copper tube to pull current or run as a motor.

Mags

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2015, 12:14:58 PM »
Some magnet companies make custom magnets.  So if a tube magnet could be made, say N on the outside of the tube and S on the inside, then just have a copper tube that slides onto the tube magnet. Then we could just put the brushes on the ends of the copper tube to pull current or run as a motor.

Mags
No Mag's.
The last thing you want a homopolar generator to do is to work as a motor as well. The reason being that the motoring effect it self is what causes the CEMF when being used as a generator.

But your drum style homopolar generator may just work if it is consructed correctly. Although not as strong in field strength,we could use a stack of ferrite donut magnets from microwave ovens. It would still have to be designed so as the pickup brushes were on the shaft,and not the outer rim. So our shaft would have to be two pieces,and we use a teflon bush to join the two shaft halves together. The shaft would be best made from bronze,as it would be kinder to the brushes.

I have thrown together a quick sketch,and i believe that this design should give us two homopolar generators in one,with a series conection between the two. As we know,if we keep the same rotation direction,but switch magnetic field polarities,we reverse the flow of current. With this setup,we should get current flowing from one half of the shaft to the outer edge of the first copper disk(depending on rotation direction of course),and on the other side(other copper disk)we should get current flowing from the outer edge to the shaft. The copper tube that is around our magnets is our series connection cable between the two copper plates on either side of our magnets.

You will see i have placed a brush test point at the outer rim of the copper tube. This is there so as we can see if the amount of available power is due to tip speed of the brush in relation to the disc,or if only the RPM speed of the disc within the magnetic field is what produces current. We can also use this test point to see if we managed to reduce or remove the CEMF from the system.

Im not sure weather the design below will work?,but only one way to find out. We wont get a lot of power from it,as we are only using weak magnets,and in my setup,i will only have around a 2 1/2" diameter. but i do have some 20 000 RPM 12 volt motors here,so at that RPM we should get enough to do some testing with.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #129 on: June 11, 2015, 12:32:47 PM »
@ Mags

Here is a video that shows a similar setup. Im not sure what language it is,but this little setup puts out 30+ amps-->for a brief time. You will also see the back torque is quite high.

But rather that have the brushes on the outer rim of the disc's,my setup would have those two disc's joined in series across the outer rim of the disc's,and the shaft would be two half shaft's,and our pickup brushes would be placed on the shaft's. As i stated above,we wont get that sort of current,as i will be using much weaker magnets,and he seems to have some beefy neo's on that setup. But even if we get 500mA,that will be enough to do some testing and experimenting.

#### gravityblock

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3287
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2015, 01:46:20 PM »
You have confused yourself with the position of the wires touching the disc in the video. The fact is,the two wires could be vertical to each other,and the two disc would still rotate in the same directions. So now all you have to do is move one wire 180* around the disc ,so as the two wires are now in a vertical plane. This will help with your confusion about the current flowing in the same direction. Now current is flowing in from left to right on the top disc,and flowing out from right to left on the bottom disc. The position of the two wires on the disc makes no difference to the direction of the discs rotation,unless the polarities are switched.

When I get home from work I'm going to do a video for you in order to clear this up.

Gravock

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2015, 02:11:01 PM »

When I get home from work I'm going to do a video for you in order to clear this up.

Gravock
Sounds good

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2015, 08:55:37 PM »
@ Mags

Here is a video that shows a similar setup. Im not sure what language it is,but this little setup puts out 30+ amps-->for a brief time. You will also see the back torque is quite high.

But rather that have the brushes on the outer rim of the disc's,my setup would have those two disc's joined in series across the outer rim of the disc's,and the shaft would be two half shaft's,and our pickup brushes would be placed on the shaft's. As i stated above,we wont get that sort of current,as i will be using much weaker magnets,and he seems to have some beefy neo's on that setup. But even if we get 500mA,that will be enough to do some testing and experimenting.

Yes, he gets high current through the very low resistance of the ammeter. That's very common from homopolar generators. In industry they are sometimes used for billet heating, can heat up a chunk of metal very fast since their current output _into low resistance_ is very high. They have also been used as current sources for railguns.
I think it's important to realize that the _voltage_ output from a HP generator is very low, though. On the order of a couple of volts or less.  So this means that even small resistances in the load path will effectively "kill" the output of a homopolar generator.  The automotive ammeter used in the video probably has a resistance of no more than 0.1 ohm. So a current reading of 30 amps would mean that the voltage output of the HP generator is V=IR or 30 x 0.1 = 3 volts or less. And as the video demonstrated, there is a strong back torque when that much current is drawn off the system. If you had a load resistance of even one ohm your current would drop drastically.

#### gravityblock

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3287
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #133 on: June 12, 2015, 02:54:04 AM »
@Tinman,

I drew up a few crude illustrations showing the current flow and the direction of the forces.  In the illustrations below, the green is showing the direction of the current and the blue is showing the direction of the force and the direction of the rotation for that force.  In the first image, the current direction is in the same direction across the entire diameter of the disk.  There's a force pointing upwards on the left side of the disk for a CW rotation, and on the right side there's a force pointing in the same direction upwards for a CCW rotation.  On a single disc, the forces will cancel for no net rotation.  A dual disc on separate axles will counter rotate as we see in the spiral video.

In the second image, the current direction is in the opposite direction.  There's a force pointing upwards on the left side of the disk for a CW rotation, and on the right side there's a force pointing downwards for a CW rotation.  This results in a net CW rotation.  The third image is similar to the second image.  In the third image, rotating the positive terminal around the disk also results in a net CW rotation.  Rotate the positive terminal located at the 12 o'clock position 180o to the opposite side of the disc to the 6 o'clock position and you also rotate the force 180o.  The force is to the right at the 12 o'clock position and the force is to the left at the 6 o'clock position.  Rotate the positive terminal at the 6 o'clock position 90o to the 9 o'clock position and you also rotate the force 90o.  The force is pointing to the left at the 6 o'clock position and pointing upwards at the 9 o'clock position.  However, the force at the 6 o'clock position and the force at the 9 o'clock position both induces a CW rotation.  I hope this helps in clearing things up

Gravock

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5242
##### Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #134 on: June 12, 2015, 12:51:10 PM »
@Tinman,

I drew up a few crude illustrations showing the current flow and the direction of the forces.  In the illustrations below, the green is showing the direction of the current and the blue is showing the direction of the force and the direction of the rotation for that force.  In the first image, the current direction is in the same direction across the entire diameter of the disk.  There's a force pointing upwards on the left side of the disk for a CW rotation, and on the right side there's a force pointing in the same direction upwards for a CCW rotation.  On a single disc, the forces will cancel for no net rotation.  A dual disc on separate axles will counter rotate as we see in the spiral video.

In the second image, the current direction is in the opposite direction.  There's a force pointing upwards on the left side of the disk for a CW rotation, and on the right side there's a force pointing downwards for a CW rotation.  This results in a net CW rotation.  The third image is similar to the second image.  In the third image, rotating the positive terminal around the disk also results in a net CW rotation.  Rotate the positive terminal located at the 12 o'clock position 180o to the opposite side of the disc to the 6 o'clock position and you also rotate the force 180o.  The force is to the right at the 12 o'clock position and the force is to the left at the 6 o'clock position.  Rotate the positive terminal at the 6 o'clock position 90o to the 9 o'clock position and you also rotate the force 90o.  The force is pointing to the left at the 6 o'clock position and pointing upwards at the 9 o'clock position.  However, the force at the 6 o'clock position and the force at the 9 o'clock position both induces a CW rotation.  I hope this helps in clearing things up

Gravock
Gravoc
You have definitely confused your self,and just about proved your self wrong. In order for the 2 disc to rotate in opposite directions in the same magnetic field,the polarity/current flow across the disc's must be opposite-->which it is. You must also understand that the disc's are on top of the ring magnet,and not between two ring magnet's,(i have added a picture of the fields of a ring magnet). So as you can see,the current flow is not at right angles with the uniform magnetic field as in a normal situation(the direction of field flow above a ring magnet is very messy),the current flow is parallel to the overall magnetic field,when you average out the magnetic field flow. You also have to separate each disc,and see them as the conductors. Also below is a pic of each disc,and the polarity and current flow direction due to that polarity. As you can see in disc A, the voltage polarity is positive on the outer edge of the disc,and negative at the center/conductive shaft.As we are dealing in DC current,then using conventional current flow,the current flow is from positive to negative. In disc B,we see that the positive potential is at the center/conductive shaft,and the outer edge of the disc is our negative polarity,and thus the current flow is from positive to negative-(current flow depicted by red arrows in each disc). So it is very easy to see that the current flow through each disc is in opposite directions. You will also see the blue line around the outer edge of each disk that represents the force/rotation direction. From this you can also see that no matter where the wires are placed around the two disc's,the force/rotation direction will remain in the same direction.

I hope that clears things up-->and what happened to the video?.