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New theories about free energy systems => Theory of overunity and free energy => Topic started by: Jim36 on May 18, 2015, 07:24:19 PM

Title: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 18, 2015, 07:24:19 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to the OverUnity forum and relatively new to the search for alternative / exotic energy sources. My background is electrical engineering (mainly power distribution) and in the summer last year I built a few variations to the Heins Thanes Bi-toroid transformer which, from my findings doesn't give any increased output or ‘overunity’ (though it did give me some great hands on experience with transformer design and seeing the law of conservation at work!). I have since been working on some ideas of my own and would like to have one dissected by more experienced veterans of the subject before going ahead and producing a prototype. 

The idea is to replicate the magnetic field produced around a wire carrying DC with a permanent magnet. From this it might be possible to create a homopolar motor? My thoughts are that this type of magnet should produce right angled force / movement when placed in another straight flux lined magnetic field.

The magnet would be a cylindrical tube shaped with the flux contained inside the material (flux orientation following the path of the circumference). One problem stands out to me at present, the cylinder/tube magnet is unlike copper wire which is diamagnetic so they will be some attraction between the cylindrical tube magnet and the magnets creating the external stator field. This might be overcome with setting the cylinder magnet exactly centre between the stator field magnets giving a net zero attraction (same pull each side).

I have tried quite a few magnet companies and most said it wasn’t possible or it would need large investment to produce this type of magnet from Neodymium, I found one company that said they can produce these magnets made from FeCrCo for $430 (2 No).
 
I have attached some drawings to help understand the concept. Please comment and point out anything that stands out.
Thanks
Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: shylo on May 19, 2015, 01:23:59 PM
Hi Jim, Are you saying your tube  magnet will have 1 pole on half of the tube and the opposite pole on the other half?
artv
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 19, 2015, 01:41:54 PM
Hi Artv,

No the tube will have no poles in the air as such, just flux in a circular direction, I've attached another drawing showing the magnet cut down the centre, this would then create 4 poles exposed to air, when this is placed back together the field is continuous (circular) within the material. Another example to clarify this is a toroidal shaped transformer used in engineering today, the main flux path is circular within the toroid with little flux leakage.

Jim

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 19, 2015, 07:25:53 PM
In my simple mind i don't understand how it works, why should it rotate at all? When the magnetic field is circular, then maybe something can rotate inside that cylinder magnet perhaps, but i'm not sure that it is so circular.

I too tried to make a bi-toroid transformer. I got a deflection yoke core, and a microcontroller, and i also have two small toroid cores. But then i figured out that it likely will not work, or then all thing becomes very complex. So i decided to make some much simpler experiment, using a simple coil with the same core. Finally, all the magick is in induction. The magnetic field and finally the voltage induced in the coil, depends on the speed with which the initial current increases, not on the strength of the current, should be so by equations too. And no, this voltage is not useless, when used in the right way. And i still think that this experiment worked. This is the thread here about that experiment http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VVttSzr52rM (http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VVttSzr52rM) .

What concerns the permanent magnets, what i could figure out is that there should be some kind of asymmetry in the magnetic field, to have overunity. And i did a simple experiment as well, which i think also worked, but the excess energy was not enough for continuous rotation. The discussion about that happened to be in this thread here http://overunity.com/15711/a-possible-violation-of-the-law-of-conservation-of-energy/#.VVtv6Tr52rM (http://overunity.com/15711/a-possible-violation-of-the-law-of-conservation-of-energy/#.VVtv6Tr52rM) .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 19, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
If you take a look at the attached picture it shows why a copper wire rotor will rotate in a stator magnetic field (shown by the blue arrow), what isn't shown in this picture is the actual magnetic field around the wire that interacts with the stator magnetic field to produce this motion, it instead gives you flemings left hand rule for motors which is a way of understanding direction of force with direction of current (red arrows) in a wire within the magnetic field. See also picture of a magnetic field around a wire to understand the concept of rotation for my design. The asymmetrical component of the motor is the cylindrical/tube magnet.

Finally, all the magick is in induction. The magnetic field and finally the voltage induced in the coil, depends on the speed with which the initial current increases, not on the strength of the current, should be so by equations too. And no, this voltage is not useless, when used in the right way. And i still think that this experiment worked. This is the thread here about that experiment http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VVttSzr52rM (http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VVttSzr52rM) .

'I think' what you are talking about is well known in electrical engineering/physics and called faraday's law of induction. EMF is a product of the rate of change of the magnetic field and the rate of change of the the magnetic field is directly linked to the rate of change in current. The equation is E= - dØ/dt (EMF = change in flux/time). Some times this is exploited as in the 'joule thief' circuit, this works on the basis of switching the circuit off which will make the magnetic field collapse very suddenly producing a high voltage across the inductor with a proportionally reduced current so power stays the same. I will have a look at the links have pasted to see whats going on.

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 19, 2015, 09:47:09 PM
I'm afraid that you don't understand it correctly. You seem to mix two things, the induction of a magnetic field around the wire, due to moving charged particles, the left hand rule, which is induction of magnetic field from an electrostatic field. And the force moving the electric motor, which is only an interaction between magnetic fields. And as much as i understand, this works only because the field lines around the wire which go to the right direction, are closer to the pole of the permanent magnet, until the wire reaches the pole that is. When the wire is at the pole as on your drawing, as much as i understand there is no force, and the direction of the dc current has to be switched at that moment.

Yes the law of induction, but the voltage generated is used the right way, due to the diode. Because what happens in most circuits, is that every time there would be fast oscillations between the coil and the capacitor, which finally settle in the state where no excess energy from the voltage pulse is gained, and all that is lost to heat in wires. The diode prevents that. No, a joule thief does not prevent that either. And this is about the initial voltage peak, not the back emf of the coil, when making it like this, there would be no significant back emf.

I prefer using the most basic principles, to also have the best theoretical foundation. Instead of any advanced devices.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: phoneboy on May 20, 2015, 01:23:47 AM
Your premise might work if you could encapsulate a circular magnetic field but it would only turn 180 degrees then lock right??
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 20, 2015, 11:24:08 AM
Hi Ayeaye,

My thoughts are whenever a ccc (current carrying conductor) comes into a magnetic field, there will be force acting on the conductor and on the other hand, if a non-current carrying conductor is forcefully brought into a magnetic field, there will be an induced current in that conductor. In both of the phenomenon’s, there is a relation between external stator magnetic field, current (which is coupled with a magnetic field) and force. This relation is directionally determined by Fleming Left Hand rule and Fleming Right Hand rule respectively. See first picture attached.

To further understand, a commutator is not required for a homopolar motor.. see video link https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=54&v=wUqbvHOW6Us and picture of homopolar motor showing force line interaction. This is the principle for my motor as the magnets will constantly be forced at rightangles to the stator magnetic field (see my original pdf of simple motor layout).

Hi Phoneboy, see above video link to see if that explains why it wont lock at 180 degrees.

Thanks
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: shylo on May 20, 2015, 11:47:48 AM
Hi Jim, in that last pic with the battery ,it shows current going into the page on the left ,and coming out of the page on the right. Since the current is flowing in opposite directions the arcs should be opposite no?
artv
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 20, 2015, 01:42:19 PM
Jim36,

It seems that what you say is true, but it doesn't work for me with permanent magnets, no way.

I put a big cylinder magnet vertical, near my disc, so that both poles were almost the same distance from the edge. Then i put two small cylinder magnets on the disc, sidewise, so that the field lines cross 90 degrees like you showed. There seemed to be more rotation in one direction than the other, which shouldn't be, but i didn't do any measurements. No continuous rotation.

And when i already tried things, i tried to put the magnets on the disc so that their axes were parallel with the disc axes. So the field lines of the rotor and stator magnets were parallel. And weirdly, the effect was even greater, more rotation in one direction, that is. But i didn't measure anything either. And no continuous rotation of course. These things, magnets, are weirder than we think. Whatever understanding we have, it is likely an approximation.

I know that Faraday made a homopolar motor. Why does it exactly work, i don't know, it is a weird thing. Too complex for my simple mind, i prefer to think about simpler things.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 20, 2015, 02:46:02 PM
Hi artv,

The picture shows the red lines produced by the magnetic field passing the current carrying conductor (gold rectangle), the current is the blue arrows within the gold rectangle, the green circles with ‘cross’ and ‘dot’ represent the conductor moving into the picture on the left and out of the picture on the right providing rotation.

Hi Ayeaye,

I don’t think you have the right type of cylinder/tube magnets to do any testing with, these can’t be bought (as far as I know) as I have struggled to find one manufacturer that will attempt to make them.

You’re right, magnets are a weird thing! I don’t think that conventional magnetic theory truly understands the nature of magnetism. I’m quite interested in the Ether / vortex theories as to gain a better understanding.

The homopolar motor principle is ‘relatively’ simple when explained with conventional magnetic theory. I’ll show you what I understand. Take the concept of the circular magnetic field around a wire and how it interacts when inside another permanent magnetic field (1st picture), then take a look at the homopolar motor from a birds eye view (2nd picture) which I’ve drawn to help clarify. I don’t think it’s too complex for your mind, these things just require studying and finding the correct information!
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 20, 2015, 04:56:55 PM
Hi Webby1,

Yes, that is the correct concept in respect to producing a permanent circular magnetic field, only with 2 halves this may have some flux leakage which may or may not be a problem. Horse shoe magnets are too large for the job and are not usually circular, though if some small ones could be found (10-20mm dia) these could be used stacked up to produce a cylinder as a trail. Do you know of anything like this on the market? Is there any magnets like this used in technology at present that could be salvaged?

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 20, 2015, 06:17:37 PM
Jim36,

Ok, i got it. I understood it from your pdf, top view. So it appeared that this is the same i have always talked about, moving by the field lines, just in a slightly different configuration. The asymmetry in your case is that circular field, this is asymmetric in relation to the magnetic field of the pole. Stupid me, i didn't recognize it at once.

Anyway, the design you proposed will not work. Why, because what matters is that one half of the circular field is closer to the pole, then the field lines of the pole move by the field lines of that circular field, N to S. It is not just about a right or left hand rule or anything. That is, one may call it that rule, and it is also true in that case, but the reason why the wire rotates is not because of that rule, it can only be used to illustrate what happens.

So as much as i understand, the big cylinder magnet on the drawing below,  should rotate. The small stator magnet is fixed in place. I hope that you understand my drawing, as i cannot draw very well. I cannot make it, because i have no strong enough bearings, which hold the magnet in place. My processor fan is not good enough for that. I tried though with magnets, the rotating force seems to be there, and seems to be quite strong. Whether strong enough for continuous rotation, again i cannot say. Maybe with good bearings and light magnet it may work.

Why should it work, to explain to the others. Take a single field line out of the north pole of the big magnet. This is radial. It moves N to S, by the field lines of the small (stator) magnet.

Btw, i kind of remember, someone showed me a toroid magnet rotating, holding another magnet near it, when i was a kid. I didn't understand why it rotated, and i'm also not sure whether it really happened, or was it a dream. Most toroid magnets are like cylinder magnets, also poles at flat sides, only a hole at the center.

The problem with bearings with such thing, is that the magnet attracts the bearings, so that they may not work well. I don't know how to solve this, with bearings made of non-magnetic material, or something different.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 20, 2015, 10:33:51 PM
Hi Webby,

I found a company in the states that can make it as one hole magnet! Though the material is FeCrCo not neodymium as I would of liked, I need to check the properties of this material.
What is a PMH? I’ve thought about making my own but I would have to find the blank magnetic material to do so.

Hi Ayeaye,

You might be correct, my design might not work and I may have to resort back to a ‘standard’ homopolar design, who knows I will play? The conventional interaction of magnetic fields may be incorrect for homopolar motor?

I understand your design and it could work too, I see what you mean by using a large cylinder / tube magnet so to keep only one half of the magnet in the stator field. Thanks for the additional idea as I had not thought of that one. I don’t think there is a problem with bearings as these type of magnets do not have a field external to the material so the bearings are not attracted.

You may off seen something like that when you were a kid or it could have been a dream? When I spoke to my father about what I’m doing, he claims to have seen something similar years ago (when working as telecoms engineer at a property in the sticks) the guy showed him and said it has been spinning for a few years? These glimpses may give us the ‘energy’ to keep pursuing the goal! 

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 21, 2015, 09:04:10 AM
I tried it a bit with magnets and my disc, it didn't seem to work. This is not the best device to experiment though, as i cannot hold things in place. If you can make the magnetic field of the stator magnet on my drawing, perfectly circular, then it has the best chance to work, as circular is perfectly asymmetric. It is like a magnet where you can imagine the pole to be anywhere on that circle, and everywhere the field lines are only on one side of that pole. But i doubt that it is possible to achieve so circular field with permanent magnets.

How should this design be named? This could be named a homopolar  magnet motor, but then it would mistakenly thought to be a homopolar motor, as this has a magnet as well. So maybe it's better to name it a one pole magnet motor, to distinguish the two.

I have only used magnets to show overunity, for which they are good. But i have thought that magnets and electromagnets cannot be used for generating any continuous energy. For that i thought the solid state experiments using a coil, such as my "negative discharge effect" experiment, are the way to go, and worth the effort.

I noticed also when hanging a small magnet from a thread, then it started to circle the pole of the big magnet quite intensively. But then i couldn't get any good results when fixing the thread somewhere. It was very difficult to hold the magnet in any one position, when hanging it from a thread. Nice toy though.

But if the one pole magnet motor or such is what you want to try, then good luck. I think then at first you should make a test device, which enables to put the small magnet to different positions.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 21, 2015, 05:52:48 PM
Webby,
Great video thanks, I’ve watched some of JV’s stuff he’s doing great things! The PMH is very interesting and I’ve never seen that winding technique. This could be something done with a laptop power supply EMI ferrite tube, though I don’t know if the ferrite material will produce the same effect? Something I could try out.

Ayeaye,
Call it the homopolar ‘permanent’ magnet motor? Anyway that can be taken care of if it works. I will do further investigating before building a prototype and post on here the results.

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 22, 2015, 05:09:28 AM
Jim36,

Fleming's rules are about induction of magnetic field from electrostatic field, and vice versa, they are not about interaction between magnetic fields. Yet now i'm not sure that your original design would not work. And this is because something new which i maybe found about magnetic fields.

This is only how it seems to me, based on trying things with my i hope sensible hands, it is no way conclusive. It looks like that a cylinder magnet rotates around its axis, when another cylinder magnet (stator) is placed near it with the same poles facing each other, as shown on the drawing below. The upper drawing shows the directions of force to the field lines, can it be called some kind of right hand rule?

I couldn't make such device, because i have no bearings or anything, to make anything such to rotate. The rotating force was quite noticeable, as much i could feel by hand. I used 10 10mm ceramic disc magnets and 10 25mm ceramic disc magnets, all 5mm thick, to make these cylinder magnets.

The magnet hanging from the thread and rotating around the other magnet, as shown on the drawing right below, seems to work exactly on the same principle. I think i have seen this experiment in one video, though nothing was said about magnets or their polarity, and the thread was held by hand. Which made the experiment not valid, because everything can be done with a slight movements of hand, and thus no one has taken such things seriously, at best it has been seen as a toy.

I hanged the thread from my lamp, so i didn't hold it in hand. But the hanging magnet seemed to try to always face the other magnet with the same side. This twisted the thread and finally it stopped. I don't know how to prevent the thread from twisting.

So i think this should be tested, if there are any mechanical means to make things to rotate. Because if it really provides a continuous rotation, then it would be something really great, no doubt. But if and only if such test would be positive, of course. Seems too good to be true i know, but then this necessarily doesn't mean that it cannot be true. And the rotating force has to be enough for continuous rotation, for it to be any worth.

I would call this design a rotating pole motor or a revolving pole motor. It is homopolar. As this thread is in the subforum of theories of overunity, then it is appropriate for the discussion of general theory of overunity in magnet motors, i think.

Errata: The left magnet on the top view below should rotate clockwise. The hanging magnet should rotate counter-clockwise.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 22, 2015, 01:00:54 PM
Like that?
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: mscoffman on May 23, 2015, 06:50:26 PM
Small ceramic bearings are tougher than steel ones and are quite common these days. 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 23, 2015, 08:59:08 PM
Thank you Mscoffman, very important information.

Theory in case if it works. If there is a repulsion force to a pole, then the direction of the force to the field line affected by the repulsion, is 90 degrees from the direction of the field line, considering its direction, when looking towards the magnet to the direction of the axis of the magnet. This is in addition to the other forces known in the magnetic field. Weird. And this is all the explanation there is.

Or maybe Jim36 or anyone else can explain it more.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 24, 2015, 09:04:40 PM
I tried to make it in a simple way. A hook made of paperclip, hanging from somewhere, and on it rotates a small cardboard disc. From that hang two magnets, with north poles against the north pole of the stator magnet. The thread was fixed to the magnets with a mounting tape. Cannot be made that way, friction is too great, cannot be made any way.

I have nothing to make such thing from. Needs some very good bearings, whatever they would be. And yes, the force is likely greater, the closer the revolving magnets are to the stator magnet. But this again needs some stronger construction.

I hope that Jim36, when he tries his magnets with a circular field, would also test this design. Because when it is made similar to the homopolar motor, the mechanical design is the same. Or is it? We see then which of these work, if any. The most likely reason for them not to work i think, is again that the force is not great enough for continuous rotation.

But who can do that and is willing, please test it. Because this design is not tested, and it is the simplest. No matter how senseless one thinks it may be, it has to be tested for the sole reason that it is not tested, even if it fails.

Below are drawings to illustrate what i described.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 26, 2015, 09:28:30 PM
I don't know why i started to talk about this. I tried hanging a magnet from a copper wire, hanging it from a hook, to prevent twisting the thread. No continuous rotation. If the force is there, it is so small that it is not useful. Or there is no such force, i cannot say when it's not experimentally proven.

I created a mess, sorry, try to bear with me.

The drawing revolving_poles_motor.jpg is not likely right, i think it works only when both magnets rotate. If it does that is.

But i don't think now that it's something worth trying, or worth considering. All what i said previously remains valid, it is only asymmetry of the field which can provide overunity in a magnet motor.

Jim36,

So you should try this design similar to homopolar motor, with your magnets with a circular field, your original design doesn't work, unless there is some special effect. Which i no doubt there may not be. But when made like a homopolar motor, it will rotate continuously, provided that the field lines are perfectly circular. Because this is completely asymmetric.

But, it is most likely impossible to make magnets with completely circular field. Because whenever a magnet is bent, like to half circle, some additional poles appear. And the same thing happens when one tries to make a circle using many magnets. The poles of some of these magnets become tilted. My experiments also confirm that.

So i don't want to discourage you and i really appreciate the effort. I also try sometimes senselessly much, to test a possibility not tested before, as this thread may also show. But i think most likely you cannot achieve continuous rotation. Because the additional poles make your field something else than circular, the negative forces come into play, and the positives will not be enough for continuous rotation. As my experiments show, there is overunity in permanent magnets, but not enough for continuous rotation.

So magnet motors, after all, may not be worth the effort. At least i think so by now. So it's better to switch to basic experiments with a coil, like my negative discharge effect experiment.

I'm sorry, some things not known to me confused me.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 26, 2015, 10:26:13 PM
Hi Ayeaye,

I've been on vacation for bank holiday weekend (here in the UK) so couldn't reply.

There is no need to apologies, you have been trying some good experiments and figuring different things out, now you have come to your conclusions.

I have myself tried to make a circular field out of many small disc magnets which as you say doesn't work as you have flux leakage due to tilting. I also crushed neodymium magnets mixed them with epoxy resin set in 2 'C' molds, I then allowed the resin to set while re aligning the material with small magnets fixed on the start and finish of the 'C'. This worked better than my first attempt but still had some flux leakage (I tested for flux leakage with iron filings and a compass).

I think I will still attempt the homopolar magnet motor as I have seen a video of this type of magnet in Russian with no flux leakage.

I will post the video here once I find it again.

Jim

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 27, 2015, 05:06:55 AM
Jim36,

I think magnets with a circular field cannot be made, and the russian video is likely a fake. But then say it's possible. Then it's obviously very difficult to make. Say you can get these magnets for $400, or maybe for $1000. You will make your device and it shall work. But what's the use of it? No one will replicate so expensive device. And these things cannot be proved, by video or by any other means. They can only be replicated. So what's the sense of all the effort then, would be yet another questionable evidence, would stay somewhere and gather dust like hundreds or thousands of such devices may already do. Which may work.

This is why i say, we need something which can be made cheaply, and easily enough. So they would be replicated at least a few times. And magnet motors are evidently not such things, they are expensive to make. Except some simple devices which only show overunity, like my experiment did. So what concerns permanent magnets, then maybe it's rather better to concentrate on these. To say to these who say that there cannot be any overunity, why don't you use a few minutes of your time to try these.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: phoneboy on May 27, 2015, 06:14:42 AM
@Jim36
I missed the pdf in your first post, could work or the field might just flow around the magnets and not do anything.  Interesting attempt at making your own magnets, you beat me to the punch with that.  When I thought about it I figured that you could test by simulating the magnet electrically with a squirrel cage (see pic), you would just need the cage, a variable resistor ,and a dc source.  You could also center your mold/epoxy/magnetic powder and energize the cage to form your magnet.  Also a question,  I though that crushing the neo would demagnetize the material, did it lose a lot of its strength? I had an idea for a different type of motor but it would also require me to make my own magnets.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 27, 2015, 03:25:19 PM
Ayeaye,

See link to video with circular magnetic field, you can see that it doesn't interact with the metal paper clip once the circle is made. True it could be fake (doesn't look it)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTq1VNMyLYQ&feature=youtu.be

The price for these magnets are high because they have never been made by the factory before, the magnets themselves cost $37.50 each but the tooling required to make them costs $300 (for the first one only)  then shipping to the uk $60. Once the tool has been made they should only cost $37.50 from that supplier, so this isn't hugely expensive.

I have done some experiments myself with magnets, I will still attempt some of your experiments too to see if I see OU.

Phoneboy,

The squirrel cage should work, as this is electricity passing through several conductors which has already been proven with the standard homopolar motor, I'm trying to provide the same effect but without the flow of electricity.

Yes the crushed neodymium did lose a lot of strength but was still strong enough to experiment with. What was your idea for a motor? Always good to share inspiration!

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 27, 2015, 06:31:19 PM
Jim36,

About that video, i don't understand russian at all. He said that vector field consists of two components, rotor and divergence. In magnetic fields, divergence is completely ignored, but it is 30% of the magnetic field. It appears when magnets that attract each other are completely together, the vector is on the line between the magnets. Doesn't attract iron objects, but repulses another divergence field and electric current. When the poles of two magnets are near each other, in the area between the magnets they don't attract an iron object, but near that area they do.

He didn't say much about the material of the ring magnets he used, other than that they were metal, that is not ferrite, and magnets which they used a very long time ago. So not clear whether that magnet is iron or alnico. He put the ring magnets to oven, and heated them to 900 celsius, so they lost their magnetic properties. Then he magnetized the halves, by wrapping a coil around them (like a coil on a solenoid core), and discharging 300 volts through the coil from the capacitors, through a welding fuse. When putting these halves together, this ring magnet did not attract a paperclip. He also magnetized a whole ring magnet that way, then split it, and the properties were the same.

This resembles the cores of some transformers. They are essentially magnetized the same way. After the current is turned off, the bar which closes the core, sometimes remains attracted very strongly to the rest of the core, for many hours. Which means that the flux remains inside. What are the magnetic properties of the core in that state, i don't know.

What concerns my experiment, this one https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 (https://archive.org/details/Flcm3) , then this is a chain of magnets, the same which supposed to form a circular field, when the magnets were next to each other. The reason is the same, most of the field lines between the magnets go from pole to pole, and thus less go outside, causing what you may call a leakage of the flux. This causes asymmetry of the field at each pole, and overunity is caused by that asymmetry, i described it more thoroughly in another thread here. It looks like though that it provides the most overunity when the magnets are weak, 5 x 5 x 3 mm ceramic, and at some distance from each other. This experiment may also be done with four 7 x 7 x 5 mm ceramic magnets which one can buy more easily, but with somewhat worse results.

What is it what i talked about before here, a divergence force? I'm not sure that it is there, but then i'm also not sure that it is not. So i would prefer to omit that.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: shylo on May 28, 2015, 01:16:05 AM
To see if I see OU, You can never see OU, It's endless, it's infinite.
How could you ever see the end?
I like what your saying though, makes sense to me.
artv
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 28, 2015, 05:53:22 PM
Thank you Shylo.

I forgot to say. He said that this ring magnet which he magnetized as a whole, and later split, was from an old loudspeaker. By the texture of the metal from where it was cut, it looks like alnico, but may be iron or some other alloy.

Yes this didn't look like a fake. There is no way to prove in a video that something is not fake, but it was not likely, or then it was very well made.

Anyway, ring magnets from some old loudspeakers, demagnetize them, and then magnetize them in a circular way, this seems to be the best way to achieve a circular field. I guess for that the magnet shouldn't be magnetized very strongly, as this may increase the undesired interactions and distort the field. Also maybe the ring magnet has to be thick, though not sure. Most horseshoe magnets have additional poles, so the question is how to avoid that.

A ring magnet from an old loudspeaker, magnetized in a circular way. Make it to rotate, bearings in the middle, and put a pole of another magnet near it. When the field is really circular, the ring magnet starts to rotate. This is all what is necessary for a permanent magnet motor. If the field is really circular, that is. This video gives some hope, plus the things seen or heard that some have already made such devices.

Capacitors, i guess he charged capacitors, and put them in series, to get higher voltage for magnetization.

Interesting why he didn't try the interaction of two of these ring magnets. If  that theory of the other component of a magnetic field were true, the circularly magnetized ring magnets had to repulse each other, when put near each other with their flat surfaces.

Ring magnet, yes, has to be ring magnet, because it's the easiest to wind a coil on it to magnetize it in a circular way.

The only way by now i think a continuously rotating permanent magnet motor is possible.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 29, 2015, 04:56:41 PM
The images below are from that video, a circularly magnetized old speaker magnet (iron or alnico) does not attract a paper clip, but the same magnet does, when cut to half.

About demagnetizing a metal magnet, what can i think. The temperature of a gas flame is said to be approximately 2000 celsius, 3000 f i guess. If there is no gas flame, maybe putting it on a burning charcoal is enough. It supposed to be demagnetized, that is the temperature is some 900 c, when it glows clearly red. Maybe it can also be demagnetized electrically, when magnetizing it in an opposite direction, but i'm not exactly sure in that.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on May 29, 2015, 05:38:31 PM
Ayeaye,

Yes the material can be demagnetised electrically. This wouldn't be required though as you can just re-magnetise it the way you require, rather than de-magnetising and re-magnetising. The material has a cocervicity point, this is the strength of magnetic field intensity required to demagnetise the material (in amps/meter) this is also the point to re-magnetise. This is what the BH curve of a magnetic material is all about, have a look into it. Wind it the way you want it magnetising (in this case toroidal winding style) and if low resistant wire is used and correct amount of ampere  turns are made to exceed the cocervicity point it can be re-magnetise with a battery. I will make an attempt this weekend and post the results here.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 30, 2015, 10:14:27 PM
Thanks Jim36, great.

So it looks like that re-magnetization of these ring magnets is quite doable with means almost all people can afford.

One thing about this paper clip experiment though. It likely really is how it is shown in that video. But then this paper clip experiment is not enough to show that the field is completely circular. When the ring magnet is split, the field concentrates to poles, so the poles can lift a paper clip. But when the ring magnet is a whole, this field distributes more evenly around the magnet, this is certain, and no one has ever questioned it.

But then there may be additional poles, like say there are some 10 of them. The paper clip experiment really works the way it is shown, because each of these 10 additional poles are weaker than the poles when the ring magnet is split. Yet with 10, or even with 20 or more additional poles, the field is not completely circular, and thus the magnet will not rotate continuously.

The ring magnets in that video are also quite weak, alnico or iron, but likely a material which doesn't provide a lot of force. Like some horseshoe magnets, also alnico or iron, they can barely lift a paper clip. With so weak magnets, the difference between lifting a paper clip and not lifting a paper clip comes easily, because the magnet can barely lift a paper clip.

So this video doesn't really show more than is obvious, the field sure distributes more when the ring magnet is a whole. Thus this video does not prove really anything, shows nothing more than is already known.

Saying that, i still think that magnetizing a ring magnet is the best possible way to achieve a circular field, and may be the only way when a completely circular field is even possible.

The working device which i saw as a kid was also likely made that way, if that was not a dream as i said. It was nothing but a ring magnet, similar to that in that video. It rotated on some bearings, and another magnet was held against the side of it with pliers. This other magnet was like a small segment of a ceramic ring magnet, held against it as i remember, with a flat side, that is pole, towards the ring magnet. When the other magnet was close, the ring magnet rotated very fast. As i said, maybe it was a dream.

Nevertheless, it is worth to try, as it is not tested yet, and it is not entirely excluded that it may work.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 31, 2015, 09:20:28 PM
Magnetizing is not that easy i think, like they use 8000 amperes to magnetize the common neodymium magnets. 8000 amperes, though only for a brief moment. For magnetizing such weaker magnet, so much current is not necessary, yet i think it needs quite a lot. If one has a welding transformer, then this might do the thing. I'm not sure though whether a wire from a power cable is enough for a coil, certainly not anything thinner.

This guy used capacitors to get 300 volts, then discharged them through the welding fuse and the coil. This doesn't say much about the current, except that the current used for welding is as much as i know at least 100 amperes, very common is several hundred amperes. Apparently this was enough for magnetizing his ring magnet, though likely very weakly.

Capacitors, this may be because the house fuse doesn't let through as many amperes as necessary. When the current comes from capacitors, then that's not a problem. I guess he filled capacitors with 320 volts from three phases he could get. So then one needs a big capacitor, at least.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on June 01, 2015, 04:55:03 AM
One might just punch out some ring magnets from a rubber magnetic strip and then magnetize them by rotating them between two neodymium magnets.
Sounds a bit easier.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 01, 2015, 10:52:15 AM
One might just punch out some ring magnets from a rubber magnetic strip and then magnetize them by rotating them between two neodymium magnets.
Sounds a bit easier.
Right but, may be the worst option. Likely too weak, and a low quality material which is the most likely to produce additional poles, the very thing that should be avoided.

All the problem about magnet motors is to have more positive force than friction, see my experiment and repeat it, you may see there is overunity https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 (https://archive.org/details/Flcm3) . Means, with no friction, even such chain of magnets would rotate continuously, even without the field being completely circular. But without enough asymmetry, the overunity is not enough to overcome friction. The circular field is the most asymmetric, that is, an ideal case where in the field lines chain there are no field lines in the opposite direction. Also the Faraday's homopolar motor, which Jim36 described here, works because of the circular magnetic field. So that a continuous rotation with a circular field is possible, is already known.

We are in a very difficult situation here. We supposed to go to the extreme with something, with the highest quality, to see the maximum which is achievable. And at the same time we supposed to do that cheaper than most of the ordinary things are made, so that many can repeat it. And in such conditions no one knowingly has succeeded to achieve continuous rotation. Maybe some people call that a proof that there cannot be overunity, but to me it sounds more like a self-proving argument.

Furthermore, it has been made more difficult. Namely, overunity has been made like some all in one effort. Means, the only thing considered valuable, is when a single person solves it all, and maybe even provides some practical benefit to the rest of humanity. Means no one gets any benefit from any intermediate research, necessary to achieve the end goal. Means some do some work not to talk for free, but also without any acknowledgement. One may say many reasons why this is exactly how it should be, but still it seems like a kind of extreme milking. Plus plenty of hoaxes and hypes, promoted because some get money by lies. To distract just almost everyone who otherwise could contribute to the research. All that, no wonder, makes that great final result impossible in the reality.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 02, 2015, 12:34:17 AM
One might just punch out some ring magnets from a rubber magnetic strip and then magnetize them by rotating them between two neodymium magnets.
Sounds a bit easier.
If you want to try it, sure do. I have nothing against experiments. I think it will not work, but then i may be wrong.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on June 02, 2015, 09:13:15 PM
Hi Ayeaye,

You can emulate a circular field in a ferromagnetic tube by using two magnets with poles flipped next to each other.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 02, 2015, 11:34:16 PM
Hi DreamThinkBuild,

Thanks, great. I can make a cube out of 8 of my small rectangular magnets, which would be similar to that inside the tube. But i don't have a ferromagnetic tube. I have nothing ferromagnetic with the shape of tube, that is. Maybe that idea together with that rubber magnet idea by Lumen may work. If it is possible to demagnetize a magnet tape, or magnetize it circularly, then it may serve as a ferromagnetic tube. But this is just what i happened to think when reading this thread again, i'm not sure in that at all.

I don't say at all that it will not work, and i don't want to discourage anyone from experimenting. But the problem with that, i think, is this. A ferromegnetic tube, if it is thin, it has no effect whatsoever. But when it is thick, more than 10 mm or such, then it effectively screens the inner magnets from the outside magnet. What a ferromagnetic material does i think, is that it takes the field lines into itself, and thereby screens them for anything outside. So inside the wall of that tube there likely will be a quite circular field, maybe also somewhat outside the tube, but there it may be much too weak. But then, a positive force strong enough to overcome the friction, is all what the problem is about.

This topic seems to interest many, but then no one seems to have a proper means to really try it, such as a welding transformer. People used to think permanent magnet motors are easier to make, than other overunity devices. Maybe right about just showing overunity, like my experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 (https://archive.org/details/Flcm3) , but what concerns a real continuous rotation, they may need much more resources. Maybe after all, solid state devices with a coil like this https://archive.org/details/ndischarge (https://archive.org/details/ndischarge) are much easier to make by people with limited resources, than permanent magnet motors.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on June 03, 2015, 05:04:35 PM
I think that if one could magnetize in a circular path, then the field might be fully contained within the magnet.
If there was any field leakage it would diverge away and no longer be circular.
 
That doesn't mean that this could not work as there could be some tendency to divert an incoming field in the same manner as a current carrying conductor.
 
The rubber magnet rings might work well because they magnetize easily and could be stacked to simulate a conductor with current.
If the working field was weak enough to prevent them form re-magnetizing they might work as a simple test.
 
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on June 03, 2015, 11:02:55 PM
Sorry for no activity, been working lots,

Yes I see what you are saying aye aye, regarding magnetising materials requires very high current, I still haven't had chance to experiment with re-magnetising a loud speaker magnet. I know that usually high current is required but there was an interesting post put on this thread with a video from Jason Verbelli showing 'Perpetual Magnetic Current' he turned Steel into a permanent magnet with low current, though I don't know the details of the steel used as this may be explained by normal physics if it has a relatively low cocervicity.

As for a circular magnetic fields, if the material is magnetised in this way a few factors will minimise flux leakage or extra poles as you mention, the surface of the material needs to be quite smooth, I found this out when I made my own circular magnet which had dimples in it, these areas had flux / poles in the air. Also magnetic flux follows the easiest path (low reluctance) air has a high reluctance, so if the tubes are made well enough I think flux leakage/poles shouldn't be real problem. you mentioned the flux is kept within the material so an external field will ignore the flux inside the material, this is not the case the external field will interact with any field or any substance appropriately, if this didn't happen then a new discovery in science has been found at least!

Ayeaye, this is not the only project i'm working on as I'm also working on a new type of transformer (I've done about 1 years experimenting with coils and custom transformer geometries) this motor will hopefully spin a generator to power the transformer, the transformer design is such that the secondary doesn't create back EMF / MMF so to tap from the ether. Not much torque will be required from the motor. This is all hypothetical obviously but I have come across some strange phenomena which has pointed me to do this. It is too early to post the work here as there is a lot of detail, but I am passing the information to another trusted group so if it works I'm not the only holder of the information, this is why i'm posting the permanent magnet homopolar motor here as it is has much less detail. I've actually purchased the circular tube magnets from a manufacture so will be working on building the motor ready for when they turn up. They believe that the magnets can be made to this degree, I suppose I will find out soon enough. 

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 03, 2015, 11:27:40 PM
Great, Jim36.

I have a strange phenomenon too, in my experiment. But in fact it is not a strange phenomenon, it it induction, the way it is known to happen, just has not been used properly. When a small current starts in a coil, then this induces an increasing magnetic field, and this induces voltage. And how great this voltage is, depends on how fast the current is switched on. Very low current may induce quite high voltage, it's as simple as that. But this is not about permanent magnet motors.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on June 03, 2015, 11:45:57 PM
Good luck with your project,

There is some interesting stuff around, I've heard of resonance switching before which may be linked with what you are talking about (switching on and off power without mosfets) as silicon switches are not meant to be as clean cut? This giving a very sharp increase in voltage and then somehow resonance is used to aid? If I can find the video I will post it for you.

Cheers
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: TechStuf on June 04, 2015, 12:33:24 AM
Ask yourselves why the "right hand rule" is important in EM wave propagation.  What are the more interesting dynamics in EM fields which cause a rotor to turn....and is it possible to employ PMs in a creative manner to accomplish same?

Or...more importantly...if all sorts of interesting geometric gear shapes can mesh at little cost, how might PM fields interact with one another in order to affect an electric current of sufficient strength to drive the process?

http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2014/04/ancient-high-performance-electric-motors-discovered-that-are-still-in-production-2685290.html (http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2014/04/ancient-high-performance-electric-motors-discovered-that-are-still-in-production-2685290.html)

http://beforeitsnews.com/spies-and-intelligence/2015/05/mt-everest-shrinks-hawaii-rumbles-their-connections-are-important-but-why-2447232.html (http://beforeitsnews.com/spies-and-intelligence/2015/05/mt-everest-shrinks-hawaii-rumbles-their-connections-are-important-but-why-2447232.html)


Good Journeys
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 04, 2015, 02:03:35 AM
There is some interesting stuff around, I've heard of resonance switching before which may be linked with what you are talking about
Resonance is just a word for something happening better in certain conditions. No, it's just v = L * di / dt , comes from the Faraday's law of induction. Initially current goes through the coil, because the coil has almost no resistance then, means almost no voltage either. The magnetic field is linear to the current. But the voltage, the force to create current, induced is the greater, the faster the magnetic field increases, notice the dt . It's in essence as trivial as that. And mosfet evidently switches fast enough for overunity. We may talk about it further in this thread http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VW-iUTr52rM (http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VW-iUTr52rM) .

The following is only a pure speculation, not related to that above. I don't know that, additional energy, the reason for that may be electrostatic. So the strength of the current really depends on how fast the circuit is switched on, finally though the current goes back and forth, and the voltages settle how they should in the circuit. So to get energy from that, one also needs to switch off the circuit fast enough, and mechanical relays are not good for that. I have seen in a four plate capacitor, the voltage between two plates oscillates between settling, so i wondered why is that. So this is about that switching, of capacitors, and a possible reason why this may provide an additional energy. Would be simpler of course, because of capacitors only and no coil, but is less straight-forward and clear, what concerns theory. There may be something about current which we maybe have not been told, current may be in a way more dynamic as it is thought to be. But this goes already very far from permanent magnet motors.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: AlienGrey on June 04, 2015, 02:16:49 PM
Yes well, re (Aveaye) I’m not so sure this man’s opinions are such to take as gospel ! he appears as far as I can see to be talking about resonance of a powdered substance on a table vibrated by sound till its mechanical resonance is reached. But is the device driving that frequency also at its own resonance, I doubt it very much and if not how would one reach a power factor of resonance ? now would we use parallel resonance or serial resonance, and what is the difference, (one hell of a lot) I might add, and what is a longitudinal wave and a transverse, one hell of a lot again, my advice is to look on Yutube for university lectures and avoid listening to half baked ideas on this comic strip ! ;)
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 04, 2015, 02:55:48 PM
AlienGrey, well yeah, different waves. But how can something act as a wave, and also as a particle? The matter is, there is something more general than a wave, propagation of a process. Wave is only a special case of it.

But these things should be discussed somewhere else, this thread should be about general theory of a permanent magnet motor. But all things come together, yes. This is all about the same field, electromagnetic, or should one say electric, electrostatic is like only about a static part of it.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 17, 2015, 01:46:46 PM
Jim36, did your magnets with circular field arrive? Cannot wait...

Also, there seems to be something extraordinary in the Faraday's homopolar motor. The current there has to create magnetic field only once, and then nothing seems to work against that current, the strength of the magnetic field doesn't change. So it looks like that the only energy used is that necessary for creating a magnetic field once. Plus that lost in the wire as a heat, but what if such thing is made using a superconductor? In that one made with a battery, there is a terrible waste of energy, all is lost just to maintain current, with otherwise maybe nothing decreasing it. Just thoughts.

TechStuf, no, it doesn't mean that god created us, what an ignorant conclusion of otherwise so brilliant thinking. It means something else, that it is not about these randomly moving particles, or then molecules. It is about something else which they have not considered, developing of a network. Well god then, what one calls god. Whatever it is one may call god, we, and all the nature, are part of it. Now say god doesn't exist, what doesn't exist then, we, or nature, or reality, nothing exists? Talking about god as an abstract concept, not even defined, but causes a lot of damage to our brain, because god means something for many people. Which is not the same as god of any religion, not necessarily the same, not every way the same. What humans have been told different from ayeaye's, well, that ayeaye thing is a joke. That is meant to deliberately hide something. Ayeayes come from a different place, where are no dimensions, or not dimensions the same way as they are here, it is difficult to describe it, and impossible to draw on a 2D picture. Anyway, one cannot hide things from ayeaye's, the same one can hide them from humans. Because ayeaye's thinking is inherently different. Well, as i said, what i'm talking about ayeaye's is a joke. But there have to be jokes too.

But even these randomly moving particles, they have not properly simulated these either. Consider simulating these moving dots, each of which can only attract the others. What a complex things can come out of it. Now consider that these can both attract and repulse each other. And they are all moving. This is exponentially more complex.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on June 18, 2015, 01:16:45 AM
Hi Ayeaye,

I'm still waiting for the delivery of them, it could be another 10-20 days yet. The homopolar motor is unique by the way the stator field and rotor are always at the same position relative to each other. I'm not sure what you mean by 'The current there has to create magnetic field only once', do you mean just a pulse? I would think that the current would need to be sustained to overcome friction.

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 18, 2015, 01:38:57 AM
I would think that the current would need to be sustained to overcome friction.
No, the friction weirdly does not seem to decrease the current, in any way.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 24, 2015, 05:59:20 PM
Jim36,

When you get these magnets, you may try something like that below. You may not believe, but this bent wire stays quite well in balance. It stays because of the weights on it. Fix with a mounting tape, should hold well, but of course i don't know the size of your magnets. What i put on that stator magnet, just happened to be a film container. The film container's lid also just happens to have a small concavity in the center, so it will not move anywhere, but it should work even without that. Just maybe it may help, maybe may give you some idea.

Why there is not much friction when the wire is bent that way, is that then the shape where it touches the surface, is almost spherical.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on July 17, 2015, 03:12:00 PM
Hi all,

The tube magnets have arrived but on initial testing the field is not correct  :(, I will try to redeem the experiment and possibly have them corrected here in the UK.

See pictures in following post of tube magnets.

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on July 18, 2015, 04:12:03 AM
I was trying to get a response from a similar setup by using about 10 diametrically polarized cylinders forming a ring.
The ring of magnets had almost no external field after forming them into the ring, so it was a magnetic ring just like the field around a wire with current.

It seems that if the field is contained internally there is no way another outside field can affect it and the experiment did nothing.

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on July 18, 2015, 07:51:21 AM
Maybe it may work when the ring magnet is thin, it takes 10 mm of iron to shield the magnetic field in any noticeable way.

But if the permanent magnet motors are not the way to go at all, then it's of course better to know it.

Jim36, you have at least the magnets, so you can magnetize them. Such tube-like magnets may though be the worst, in that not many of these thick wires needed for magnetizing circularly, can go in there. The best for the purpose is likely a ring magnet with a possibly larger hole. For that money you could buy a welder instead, and you could magnetize magnets by yourself as much as you want. A microwave transformer may also do that, some use it for welding, but also may not be powerful enough.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Jim36 on July 23, 2015, 01:17:35 PM
Lumen, you maybe correct and the external field will have no effect, this is something i'm not sure of.

Ayeaye, yes I was thinking of getting the holes made wider for the reasons you have just mentioned, will see if I can get things moving forward.

Jim
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on July 23, 2015, 04:04:48 PM
Jim36, Lumen, i think the field of the external magnet should go inside the circularly magnetized magnet, and still create a force. The only thing that prevents that, i think, is magnetic shielding of the metal of the circularly magnetized magnet. But shielding a magnetic field needs at least 10 mm of iron, so when the circularly magnetized magnet is thinner (less difference between the outside and inside diameter), then there may be an effect, when it is, say 20 mm thick, then maybe not. I'm not sure about numbers, didn't calculate anything, but i have found that a 10 mm of iron can shield the magnetic field. What do you think, right, wrong?

This may also mean that the external magnet should be quite near the circularly magnetized magnet, as the circularly magnetized magnet has no field outside.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on July 23, 2015, 08:10:01 PM
Maybe some effect could exist if the circular field was in something other than the magnets.
Like if a ring of copper were drilled for several diametrically magnetized cylinders with a small distance between them so the circular field existed partially in the copper.
Then there would exist a medium where an external field could interact and hopefully generate the desired effect.
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on July 29, 2015, 11:51:39 PM
THE FOLLOWING  'SCIENTIFIC PHENOMENON'  WILL ALLOW YOU TO HAVE SOME  'ELECTRICAL CURRENT'  IN YOUR  NON-ELECTRIC HOMOPOLAR/FARADAY MOTOR PROTOTYPES   

Just posting this to try and make sure everyone in this thread knows about a real, and incredible phenomenon called    'Persistent Current',    basically,    in a   LOOP  made of either a non-superconductor or a superconductor,  a   'naturally-occurring'   electrical current flows in the loop,  without any electrical input from outside of the loop.    This effect is particularly strong in superconductors,  but has also been proven to occur in non-superconductors( any normal conducting ring ).   THIS IS THE PUREST EXAMPLE OF FREE ENERGY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_current

Admittedly,  it would be best if you sought advice from a scientist specializing in  'Persistent Current',   to make maximum use of it in your  prototypes .

BEFORE I BECAME AWARE OF THIS PARTICULAR THREAD
Before I became aware of this particular thread,    I designed a very simple   Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor( Homopolar-motor )   to make use of the above phenomenon,  and posted it in a thread I started ,  below :
http://overunity.com/15918/perpetual-motion-permanent-magnet-faraday-motor/#.Vbk737Oqqko

And,  then,  I posted another extremely simple  Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor( Homopolar-motor ) to make make use of the  principle by which a normal   Electric-Faraday-Motor( Homopolar-motor ) works.   
I TRULY BELIEVE THIS  MOTOR  I POSTED,  ACTUALLY PROVIDES THE SAME MAGNETIC-FIELDS THAT PROPELS A NORMAL  Electric-Faraday-Motor( Homopolar-motor ).

(  The thread I started   above,   probably won't have any more activity,  and I'm pasting my posts from that thread,  over to this one.    )
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on July 29, 2015, 11:58:02 PM
PERPETUAL-MOTION  PERMANENT-MAGNET  FARADAY-MOTOR

A non-electric Faraday-Motor,  which just uses permanent-magnets.

THIS MOTOR DOES NOT USE  MERCURY ( OR SALT WATER )
This  Faraday-Motor  'does not'  use the liquid mercury ( salt-water in other versions )  that Faraday-Motors usually use. 

Replace the wire in the Faraday-Motor  with a LOOP made of Neodymium-Wire( if that really exists ) or some other permanently-magnetic thing that would have the same effect(  making sure that only one side of the loop( one strand ) interacts with the permanent-magnet at the centre of the motor .

NOTE : I'm suggesting a LOOP,  incase the incredible phenomenon called  'Persistent Current'  could exist in the material used,  because 'Persistent Current' has been proven to occur in  NON-SUPERCONDUCTOR materials.

THIS MOTOR WOULD HAVE TO USE A   'MAGNETIC-BEARING'

(  'Ideally',  instead of a LOOP made of Neodymium-Wire,  it would be a LOOP made of a room-temperature Superconductor-Wire( like Stanene or Graphene ),  WHICH COULD ADDITIONALLY ALSO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE INCREDIBLE PHENOMENON CALLED   'PRESISTENT CURRENT'  ,   but that would only be absolutely 'Ideally'  )


IF THIS MOTOR WOULD NOT WORK
The question would be what is the difference between the magnetic-field around a wire( with electricity flowing through it ) and the magnetic-field around a Neodymium-Wire-Loop.

Could it be that a magnetic-field around a wire( with electricity flowing through it ) has some type of a cog-wheel like outer edge( outer most surface ) because it is generated by electricity,  unlike the assumedly  smooth outer edge( outer most surface ) of the magnetic field of a permanent-magnet.

THE FOLLOWING NOTE,  TURNED OUT TO BE WRONG ( I ASSUME )
NOTE :  Hours after I posted this post,   I realized,  correctly or not,  that the propulsion in a normal   'Faraday-Motor'( electric-motor ) is probably due to a jet like effect( electrons coming out ) between the wire and the mercury( ( salt-water in other versions ), but I don't know. 
At worst,  the  Neodymium-Wire would just hang in a stationary-orbit near the central permanent-magnet,  at best it would spin around.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on July 30, 2015, 12:07:40 AM
.

The following   'Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor( Homopolar-motor )' ,  is designed to replicate the magnetic fields that propel a normal   Electric-Faraday-Motor( Homopolar-motor ) .

The following webpage,  has a  MIND-BLOWING  explanation of how the  'Homopolar-Motor'  works,  just read the post which contains the word   'tangential'  .

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/homopolar-motor-explained.300468/

After I read the above web-page,  I played with some small  permanent-magnets( shaped like flat round watch-batteries  ),  and I seemed to get some  propulsion  )

I'm not even able to build this incredibly simple motor, unfortunately.

(  Strangely,  I think I'm onto something here,  a resulting  'tangential' force resulting from the interaction of magnetic fields that are  slightly more than,  or slightly less than 90-degrees different to each other,   and the flexibility of the string in the Diagram below  )
 
(    If you build the motor below,  try it with either the slightly different string lengths( as shown in the diagram ) ,   or ,  with equal string lengths.       
     Since string is flexible,  it will do strange things on its own.   Eventually the string would be replaced with a  rod  connected  to a magnetic bearing ,  which would give it some strange flexibility  )

In the diagram below,    a bar magnet( suspended by two lenghts of string ) is in  'orbit'   around another bar magnet( which is sitting up-right )  ,  you'll notice that the two strings are different lengths ( thats to replicate  the results I got last night ).
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on July 30, 2015, 06:20:19 AM
I have 90 small diametric cylinders coming and will make a better attempt to simulate a current carrying conductor.
With enough magnets I can make it several inches long and try to space them so more of the field is external.
The concept merits a bit more effort before trashing it.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: xhacks on July 31, 2015, 11:25:01 AM
Check this guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJyeSPSFAyY
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 01, 2015, 05:37:38 AM
Xhacks, no explanations, no theory. It's over my simple mind. There is no way how i can take it seriously, unless this thing is better explained.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: SoManyWires on August 01, 2015, 05:48:55 AM
Check this guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJyeSPSFAyY

wow, that did look pretty cool.

magnetic bearing.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 01, 2015, 03:00:39 PM
Ah, that's only magnetic bearing. The small magnet sits in the hole of the magnetic field of the big ring magnet? Quite difficult to make any motor with that. And kind of useless too, that there is overunity can be shown much more easily. But a motor which barely rotates is more or less useless.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 02, 2015, 02:59:23 AM
If anyone can explain,   completely correctly,   and using the simplest terms that  'anyone'  can understand,    what is the difference between an   Electric-Faraday-Motor  and a   Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor( which just uses 2 permanent magnets )   ?

Why would a   'Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor'   which uses 2   'pipe-shaped-bar-magnets'  set at  90-degrees from each other,  not produce propulsion  (  see the diagram in my earlier post ). 
    I would have thought that the reaction between these 2  permanent-magnets  would result in propulsion at a 45-degree angle.

(  What is the difference between a   magnetic-field   generated by an electrical current,  and the magnetic-field  of a permanent magnet   )

(  If your answer is that in the  'Electric-Faraday-Motor',  the  magnetic-field  of the permanent-magnet   also interacts with the  flowing-electrons,   then check the angle of that interaction  :     
 -  when the electricity is switched to flow in one direction,    the  magnetic-field  of the permanent-magnet   is flowing in the  EXACT-SAME  direction that the   flowing-electrons  are travelling,  although assumedly at a different speed.
 -  when the electricity is switched to flow in the  other direction,   the  magnetic-field  of the permanent-magnet   is flowing in the  EXACT-OPPOSITE  direction that the   flowing-electrons  are travelling                                      )

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: SoManyWires on August 02, 2015, 03:55:49 AM
Ah, that's only magnetic bearing. The small magnet sits in the hole of the magnetic field of the big ring magnet? Quite difficult to make any motor with that. And kind of useless too, that there is overunity can be shown much more easily. But a motor which barely rotates is more or less useless.

the value of using a magnetic bearing, would be to increase its lifespan when compared to a not so magnetic bearing due to friction.
also the lack of friction means the bearing can essentially run using less power input.

as a example, a vertical axis wind turbine/windmill.

this floating bearing system can possibly be used for many other ideas.
such as a near frictionless axle that might be used in the development of a maybe possible overunity device, though the bearing will not be the reason it keeps running on its own.
there is the risk that if there is cogging that might occur in the design, to cause the floating bearing to not remain in its exact position constantly, and this may be something of concern when working with such bearing systems mixed with other experiments.
though additional magnets might be used to counter act against the main bearings positional movement.
using anything else other than those additional magnets to correct that alignment would mean more material contact based friction.

though supercooling could help certain levitation of i think it involves bismuth or something else.
supercooling has its costs unless the generator itself can cover the extra needed energy for that cost, but that is getting beyond my scope of understanding which is easy to do when i try to make sense of concepts and theories, much flies way over my head, hats off to those it does not.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 02, 2015, 06:55:55 AM
If anyone can explain,   completely correctly,   and using the simplest terms that  'anyone'  can understand,    what is the difference between an   Electric-Faraday-Motor  and a   Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor( which just uses 2 permanent magnets )   ?

Why would a   'Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor'   which uses 2   'pipe-shaped-bar-magnets'  set at  90-degrees from each other,  not produce propulsion  (  see the diagram in my earlier post ). 
    I would have thought that the reaction between these 2  permanent-magnets  would result in propulsion at a 45-degree angle.

(  What is the difference between a   magnetic-field   generated by an electrical current,  and the magnetic-field  of a permanent magnet   )

(  If your answer is that in the  'Electric-Faraday-Motor',  the  magnetic-field  of the permanent-magnet   also interacts with the  flowing-electrons,   then check the angle of that interaction  :     
 -  when the electricity is switched to flow in one direction,    the  magnetic-field  of the permanent-magnet   is flowing in the  EXACT-SAME  direction that the   flowing-electrons  are travelling,  although assumedly at a different speed.
 -  when the electricity is switched to flow in the  other direction,   the  magnetic-field  of the permanent-magnet   is flowing in the  EXACT-OPPOSITE  direction that the   flowing-electrons  are travelling                                      )

I am planning to do some experiments to determine why there is a difference.
I would have thought that because is conductor is non-magnetic the cross field does not interact with it, but I'm sure the Faraday motor would still work if the conductor was iron.

So maybe it's only because the magnet tube is not long enough to prevent the field simply entering the ends and preventing the effect. That's one thing I hope to test.

It could be that a conductor pushes the field outside of the conductor and a magnetic tube contains the field inside the tube so it does not deflect the cross field.

I thought possibly a spinning copper tube would deflect the cross field in a similar way and cause movement even though the rotating copper would require work.
 
There must be some reason why it does not work the same , right?
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 02, 2015, 11:05:27 AM
Guest1289, Lumen,

The difference i think is how the magnetic fields interact. In case of two magnets with the axis perpendicular, what happens is that the magnetic fields reshape, so that both poles of the rotor magnet shall be directly connected to the pole of the stator magnet. When the poles of the rotor magnet are at equal distances from the pole of the stator magnet, then the forces are in balance, and there will not be any movement. When they are at different distances, then there simply will be an attraction or repulsion radial to the pole of the stator magnet, again no movement. The same cannot happen when the magnetic field of the stator magnet is circular. I don't know every detail but, if you asked what is the difference, this is the difference.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 03, 2015, 12:33:20 AM
I am getting some response that is something like what a conductor would do.
 
This is what I am using but the tube needs to be splined so the cylinders stay in alignment as shown. They now tend to lock together in the gaps when stacked and that appears to reduce the effect.
 
When placed over the top on a large cylinder magnet, the array wants to tilt like a conductor carrying current would do.
Once I devise a way to keep the orientation, I will try a few other tests to see if it's like a conductor.
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 03, 2015, 04:47:08 AM
No it seems not to be like a conductor with current but much closer to a single long magnet.
Though the magnets are diametric cylinders, somehow it has developed poles on the ends of the stack making more like a single cylinder magnet.
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: PerpetualMotion12345678 on August 06, 2015, 07:10:23 PM
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Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 06, 2015, 08:16:05 PM
I tried to get  'scientifically qualified people'  to answer the question  :   -   What is the actual difference between the  field of a  'Permanent-Magnet'  and  that of a  'Wire with DC Current Flowing Through it' ,  in terms of achieving movement in a    Non-Electric-Permanent-Magnet-Powered-Faraday Motor  .

Below,  is where I posted my questions  :

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/197575/what-is-the-difference-between-the-magnetic-field-of-a-permanent-magnet-and-tha

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/197356/why-will-a-non-electric-faraday-motor-which-just-uses-permanent-magnets-not-w

(  Even though they heavily edited and or removed things I had put in the questions above,   THEY ACHIEVED making my questions much more  SUCCINCT  and  CLEAR,   and,  believe it or not,  gave me  'editing privileges'   to edit other peoples questions,   which I don't have the energy to do, 
 and I really only care about the questions arising from this    Non-Electric-Permanent-Magnet-Powered-Faraday Motor    )

-   -   -

The flowing  magnetic-field  of a  Permanent-Magnet  is made up of  photons( real photons, or virtual photons )  flowing  in one direction between the two poles of the  Permanent-Magnet.
     
(   It's easy to believe the magnetic-field  of  'Wire with DC Current Flowing Through it'  could be composed of  photons,   but less easy to think that the magnetic-field  of a  Permanent-Magnet  is also composed of  photons  )

That makes me wonder,  just what kind of  MIRRORS  could effectively 'reflect'  magnetic fields.   
  I did read that some types of  coils  are able to  reflect  part  of the    magnetic field .

-   -   -

    Last night,  I discovered on the internet that    Polarized-Light   can  turn-off  a magnetic-field  (  a recognized and authenticated discovery  ).
       
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetization_reversal_by_circularly_polarized_light

     That made me wonder,  since the  magnetic-field   and  the  electric-field  are unified ( through the  special-theory-of-relativity ),  and that the  gravitational-field   is somehow also unified with the magnetic-field   and  the  electric-field ,    could some type of  Light-Emission  be used to achieve  Anti-Gravity  (   or an electric current flowing through the outer surface(  made of a  super-conductor ) of a  CRAFT  ,  which would be different to using ionized air particles as propulsion  ) . 

-   -   -
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 07, 2015, 01:09:51 AM
The difference between the magnetic field from a conductor with current is different only in that it is a primary field.
What that means is that the field is circular and radiates in a circular path outward from the conductor without any merge points when placed in an external field.
This is the same as the field generated in the atoms of the permanent magnet before they combine to form a secondary combined field.
If you wind the conductor on a core and combine the primary fields to form the secondary fields, then the field is exactly the same as the permanent magnets.
 
Now because the secondary field flows from an object which has combined many primary fields, there are merge positions where additional field vectors will combine or merge to strengthen the established secondary field.
 
Once the field is a secondary field, there is no way to convert back to the primary without additional work.
 
I knew this before building the simulated conductor so I could test to see if there were any similarities between the two and if there were ways to increase the effect.
There are some effects that appear similar but appear not to be useful. Attraction to the edge of a magnet is stronger one way than the other but no actual rotation effect is noticed.
During this experiment I had a thought about applying something I noticed to another experiment I was doing, so it may have returned something of value but unknown as of now.
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MagnaProp on August 07, 2015, 10:30:25 AM
I tried to get  'scientifically qualified people'  to answer...
I don't qualify but your 2D images look similar to me. If we could shield one half of the permanent magnet with metal then bismuth, it might look more like magnetism from a wire that goes in one direction. That's only in 2D though.

The permanent magnet field in 3D is more like a wire that is connected to its self as in a ring or toroid shape which messes things up for us. So a permanent magnet is like having two wires next to each other with the current traveling in opposite directions, which would end up in no movement in a unidirectional motor.

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MagnaProp on August 07, 2015, 11:23:09 AM
Or have two permanent magnets together but place a shield in between them so the magnetism still has to go the long way around to their respective poles. Don't want the flux taking the short route of going into their neighbors poles.

The blue is metal to soak up the half of the magnetic field we don't want radiating out and the red is a plate of bismuth to keep the two magnets and their fields separated.

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 07, 2015, 04:07:27 PM
The problem is not the shape, but the fact that it's a field passing through another object or a combined secondary field.
This leaves an open merge point where another field is attracted into the object.
There are no merge points in the field around a conductor, (essentially no attraction to an outside field)
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 08, 2015, 05:16:13 AM
I'm not sure why this could not be possible, but why not re-magnetize some small cylinder magnets by placing a strong current through them so they would produce a field like a conductor.

If the domains could remain in that condition then it might possibly produce the same field as a conductor with current, only without any current!
A stack of these magnets would then rotate correctly as in a Faraday motor.

This will be my next test after the one in process, unless someone knows why this is impossible to achieve.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 08, 2015, 05:32:14 PM
To re-magnetize a small cylinder magnet to the polarity of a conductor with current, maybe a process similar to this.
1: Apply low voltage high current AC down the length of the cylinder magnet until the Curie temperature is reached and the AC has erased all previous magnetism.
2: Apply low voltage high current DC and simultaneously cool in water.
 
If everything works as planned and the domains are correctly magnetized, the circular field would be maintained without current.
If this was possible, we would probably already have free energy magnetic motors.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 09, 2015, 11:50:01 PM
It seems the best way to demagnetize a neodymium magnet is to stick it to a piece of silicon steel and warm with a torch until it falls off.
One dead magnet!
Still no luck trying to magnetize them like a conductor but there are a few things to try yet before I move on.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MarkE on August 10, 2015, 03:18:44 AM
It seems the best way to demagnetize a neodymium magnet is to stick it to a piece of silicon steel and warm with a torch until it falls off.
One dead magnet!
Still no luck trying to magnetize them like a conductor but there are a few things to try yet before I move on.
You have to overcome their coercive force with a big enough field.  The field doesn't have to persist for long.  Capacitor discharge is the most common method used.  The size of the capacitor depends on how low you can get the inductance.  The only caution is that you should use a pulse rated capacitor, and the whole thing should be put behind an explosion proof barrier.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 10, 2015, 04:45:02 PM
Reaching the coercive force does appear to be a problem. I originally demagnetized it so I would be able to see any indication of the new magnetization direction but there is no noticeable new field.

Usually a coil can be wound to provide the magnetizing field by a capacitor bank discharge, but to generate a field in such a way as to magnetize a cylinder with a field like a conductor makes it difficult to reach the coercive force.

The idea is to achieve a circular field like a segment of a conductor with a current flowing through it, in a cylinder magnet.
Just pumping a current through the magnet is either not generating a field inside the magnet, or is no where near the coercive force required to retain the field.

I thought a bit about winding a coil to achieve the correct field and I'm not sure it's possible. (toroidal maybe)

Still looking for some clues.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MarkE on August 10, 2015, 09:17:48 PM
Reaching the coercive force does appear to be a problem. I originally demagnetized it so I would be able to see any indication of the new magnetization direction but there is no noticeable new field.

Usually a coil can be wound to provide the magnetizing field by a capacitor bank discharge, but to generate a field in such a way as to magnetize a cylinder with a field like a conductor makes it difficult to reach the coercive force.

The idea is to achieve a circular field like a segment of a conductor with a current flowing through it, in a cylinder magnet.
Just pumping a current through the magnet is either not generating a field inside the magnet, or is no where near the coercive force required to retain the field.

I thought a bit about winding a coil to achieve the correct field and I'm not sure it's possible. (toroidal maybe)

Still looking for some clues.
If you want the field to look the same as if a current runs down the central axis, then running a magnetizing current through the central axis is what you need to do.  You might be able to make it work by placing the magnet inside a copper tube just barely larger than the magnet and then pulsing the tube length-wise.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 10, 2015, 11:10:36 PM
If you want the field to look the same as if a current runs down the central axis, then running a magnetizing current through the central axis is what you need to do.  You might be able to make it work by placing the magnet inside a copper tube just barely larger than the magnet and then pulsing the tube length-wise.
I tried current directly through the magnet and the magnet inside a copper tube, but nothing.
I used a 51,000 MFD capacitor charged to 30V and direct discharge with less than 2" leads. Crack!
But still nothing.
I have two of those capacitors and they are rated 40V but I have no way to know how close that gets to the required coercive force to retain the field.
Probably will keep increasing the power until something changes unless there is a way to calculate the requirement.
It's bound to be very high because the field generated is not increased by winding additional loops like in a coil and in fact may be impossible to reach before the copper tube or magnet simply vaporizes.
 
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 12, 2015, 05:18:26 PM
It does appear that a magnet either cannot be magnetized to generate a circular field or the field simply is contained inside the magnet.

Logically, the field is simply retained within the core the same as connecting several magnets to form a ring or even placing a keeper on a magnet and retaining the field within the magnet.

Just pondering why a conductor is so different I might think that a field is generated in the conductor core which pushes the moving electrons outward to the skin of the wire where another field is generated outside the wire in the air.

One field inside pushing electrons outward, another field outside expanding into the air.
If this were true it would be impossible to generate the same field by permanent magnets.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 15, 2015, 04:25:53 PM
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Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 15, 2015, 04:44:03 PM
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Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MarkE on August 15, 2015, 04:49:43 PM
It does appear that a magnet either cannot be magnetized to generate a circular field or the field simply is contained inside the magnet.

Logically, the field is simply retained within the core the same as connecting several magnets to form a ring or even placing a keeper on a magnet and retaining the field within the magnet.

Just pondering why a conductor is so different I might think that a field is generated in the conductor core which pushes the moving electrons outward to the skin of the wire where another field is generated outside the wire in the air.

One field inside pushing electrons outward, another field outside expanding into the air.
If this were true it would be impossible to generate the same field by permanent magnets.
Why don't you try using a lower coercivity material?  If the idea is to find out whether something can be magnetized to emulate the field that surrounds a wire, then a piece of iron or steel rod may be the way to go.  Then you can do an iron filing pattern test to see if the field persists as it should even though it will be weak.  Other experiments could include running a wire much longer than the diameter of a washer through the middle, and then energizing and deenergizing the wire.  The other thing that you should watch out for is that your magnetizer current doesn't oscillate thereby making something of a degausser.  A fast diode across the wire ends should take care of that.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 15, 2015, 05:13:55 PM
Why don't you try using a lower coercivity material?  If the idea is to find out whether something can be magnetized to emulate the field that surrounds a wire, then a piece of iron or steel rod may be the way to go.  Then you can do an iron filing pattern test to see if the field persists as it should even though it will be weak.  Other experiments could include running a wire much longer than the diameter of a washer through the middle, and then energizing and deenergizing the wire.  The other thing that you should watch out for is that your magnetizer current doesn't oscillate thereby making something of a degausser.  A fast diode across the wire ends should take care of that.

I am reasonably convinced that the field generated by current flowing in a conductor is unique and is impossible to emulate with magnets.
However, a new discovery on making non-magnetic metals magnetic, indicates it may be possible from the following quote:

"In the new study, the researchers have shown how to change the exchange interaction and DOS in non-magnetic materials by removing some electrons using an interface coated with a thin layer of the carbon molecule C60, which is also called a ‘buckyball’. The movement of electrons between the metal and the molecules allows the non-magnetic material to overcome the Stoner Criterion."


So it seems that if a thin layer with magnetic properties could be formed with the right field direction on the outside of a non-magnetic metal, it may be possible to build a non-electrical wire that simulates a wire with a current flow.

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MarkE on August 15, 2015, 05:21:47 PM
Magnetization is just the process of aligning domains.  Since domains can take on any orientation, there is no reason that I can think of as to why you should not be able to magnetize circularly except right at the center of a disk.  I think that the problem you have magnetizing hard magnetic material is one of developing enough field strength.  That is why I am suggesting you experiment with relatively low coercivity materials to start.  Just eliminate reaching saturation flux as a requirement to start.  Assuming that you successfully magnetize circularly, as I think you should be able to do, then it would become a matter of engineering a magnetizing rig that develops an sufficiently intense field to magnetize the hard magnetic materal.

Here is a reference on defect detection using both circular and longitudal magnetization:  https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/FieldOrientation.htm
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 15, 2015, 05:30:30 PM
My potential solutions to  the  'non-electric-faraday-motor'

Solutions
( 1 ) -  The  interaction in the  'First-Image'  I have attached below,  and applied in the ways below ( or combined with them ).

( 2 ) - The way  the  'non-electric-railguns' work,  but I thought I had seen one in which the  interacting  magnets were  90-degrees to each other,  but I cannot find it now.   (  but the angles of standard   'non-electric-railguns'  could work as well,   remembering,   the  static magnets  in the    'non-electric-railguns'  I have seen are all the same strength and angle,   perfect  )

(  I also  visualized  this solution  as a combination of the  two-rings( or 3 rings in my  Levitating-Object-Invention )  and my latest  New-Type-of-Magnetic-Bearing-Invention  )

(  I'm  not sure why I prefer the interaction of magnets at  90-degrees  to each other,  rather than other angles  )

(  And,  in a solution,  one or more of the interacting  magnetic-surfaces  might be made into  a brick-wall type pattern ,  and it would actually look like a standard  brick-wall pattern,  in order to get past  sticky points  )

The  second image ,   I have attached below,  another configuration and interaction I have found usefull for this problem

(  P.S. This site needs a  'function'  that when a   'Required-Scientific-Explanation'  is  'identified'  by it's  members,  and if it is deemed  important enough by a   'Person-Appointed-for-the-Function',    that then  the  'Person-Appointed-for-the-Function'  ensures that the  'Required-Scientific-Explanation'  is obtained from  appropriate sources.     The best example is this  'non-electric-faraday-motor'  problem .    Earlier,  I had noticed indications that  qualified  physicists( or from other fields ) do actually know the answer to this question (  although some think the explanation is too complicated for the members in this site too understand .   It's sad that members here are wasting their valuable time and materials and their energy in  'quasi-daft'  or  'overly complex'  attempted  solutions to an incredibly simple  problems,  that could be prevented from happening if they had  the  existing  'correct-scientific-answers'  from the correct sources .   )
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 15, 2015, 05:58:00 PM
Magnetization is just the process of aligning domains.  Since domains can take on any orientation, there is no reason that I can think of as to why you should not be able to magnetize circularly except right at the center of a disk.  I think that the problem you have magnetizing hard magnetic material is one of developing enough field strength.  That is why I am suggesting you experiment with relatively low coercivity materials to start.  Just eliminate reaching saturation flux as a requirement to start.  Assuming that you successfully magnetize circularly, as I think you should be able to do, then it would become a matter of engineering a magnetizing rig that develops an sufficiently intense field to magnetize the hard magnetic materal.

Here is a reference on defect detection using both circular and longitudal magnetization:  https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/FieldOrientation.htm (https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/FieldOrientation.htm)

Interesting page but what they show is with current flowing to test the anomalies at the imperfections in the weld.

What I'm saying is that without the current flowing, the field attracts into the core and becomes locked in it's own reinforcing loop.

If you connect several diametrically magnetized cylinders into a ring, they suddenly become very non-magnetic even though nothing has changed within the magnet and it is still fully magnetized, the field remains in the core.

When the loop is broken the field returns as expected. So even if one did achieve a circular field in a cylinder, you would never know because it would loop only inside the core.

That's why current flow generates a special case where the field is excluded from the core or is pushed outside of it.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 15, 2015, 06:40:58 PM
.
What you have just   highlighted  about the   viability   of a  magnetic ring ( the same fact I keep on forgetting, and remembering )  ,     makes  me realize  that if you sufficiently space out the magnets in the magnetic ring( in order to retain their magnetic-field )  ,   then  the  two-rings( or 3 rings in my  'Levitating-Object-Invention' )  could function successfully  or  semi-successfully,   and an unwanted  cog-wheel-frictional-effect  could  be eliminated by many  multiple  inner and outer  'magnetic rings',  overlapping each others cog-wheel-frictional-effect . 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 15, 2015, 06:58:55 PM
.
What you have just   highlighted  about the   viability   of a  magnetic ring ( the same fact I keep on forgetting, and remembering )  ,     makes  me realize  that if you sufficiently space out the magnets in the magnetic ring( in order to retain their magnetic-field )  ,   then  the  two-rings( or 3 rings in my  'Levitating-Object-Invention' )  could function successfully  or  semi-successfully,   and an unwanted  cog-wheel-frictional-effect  could  be eliminated by many  multiple  inner and outer  'magnetic rings',  overlapping each others cog-wheel-frictional-effect .

Spacing the magnets will cause some of the field to be exposed but then the second problem arises, the circular field is no longer continuous but broken allowing merge points for the external field to attract into.
 
In a conductor the field is continuous and another parallel field is unable to merge into it so there is no attraction, unlike the broken field where a parallel field will attract into the broken spaces causing attraction unlike the conductor.
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 15, 2015, 07:39:43 PM
Yes,  but I was only talking about how it could solve my   invention  in another  thread  .

______________

Regarding  :  The  Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor

(  The Following Would Not Work,  But I Should Type It    :    Imagine  this  'magnetic-ring'  made  of  spaced  strong-magnets,  you could then enclose  this ring in an outer shell made of some type (  or pattern ) of material,  that  could smooth out the field,      'But Then the Field in The Outer Shell Would Would Remain Inside The Outer Shell Material Because it is a Ring'    )

A Good Solution Could Be To Arrange The Magnets In  a 'Brick Wall Pattern'
The   'spaced-magnets'  could be arranged  in a   'Brick-Wall'  pattern,     to   'counter-balance'   each others    'Merge Points' ,  so that those  'Merge Points'   do not stop rotation.
(   And,  this  'Brick-Wall' effect,   to   'counter-balance'   each others    'Merge Points',   could be achieved in other ways,  such as multiple wheels  all  spinning on the same  axle,   and there are also other ways   )

And, we've done a full circle to return to the common problems in magnet-motors
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 15, 2015, 09:43:50 PM
Another  possible  solution to achieve the  'replication'  of  the  'magnetic-field'  of an  electric-wire( carrying DC current )  by just using   'permanent-magnets',    for the   'Non-Electric-Permanent-Magnet-Powered-Faraday-Motor'   .

In the image below,  is a  drum  covered in the blue magnets .

(  But the drum could be without the magnets,  and be replaced  with a  cylinder-shaped-magnet   ) .

Around the drum,  is the  'Coiled-Magnet' .
(     One way to make an 'almost' equivalent of a  'Coiled-Magnet' ,  could be to,  for example,  get a small-flattish-round-magnet,  then join a short section of  'Coiled Metal' to it,  and repeat this process until the coil is long enough,  and maybe you could fit what you've made into  a  Coiled-Pipe,  so that it doesn't collapse  )  .

The drum ( or magnets on the drum ),  will  never  detect  either end of the coil ( the  merge-points )  .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MarkE on August 16, 2015, 03:01:46 AM
Interesting page but what they show is with current flowing to test the anomalies at the imperfections in the weld.

What I'm saying is that without the current flowing, the field attracts into the core and becomes locked in it's own reinforcing loop.

If you connect several diametrically magnetized cylinders into a ring, they suddenly become very non-magnetic even though nothing has changed within the magnet and it is still fully magnetized, the field remains in the core.

When the loop is broken the field returns as expected. So even if one did achieve a circular field in a cylinder, you would never know because it would loop only inside the core.

That's why current flow generates a special case where the field is excluded from the core or is pushed outside of it.
The remnant magnetization retains the same orientation as when the field is applied.  The coercivity of the material and the strength of the applied field determines the strength of the residual field.  If you want to assert the idea that the field shape changes rather than the field strength changing, I think you need to either find experiments where that has been shown, or perform experiments that show that idea is correct.  A simple test with iron filings surrounding a washer should be adequate.  You could even run the test (this has been done many times) with just iron filings on a sheet of paper or plastic with a wire running through the center. 

The citation establishes that the orientation you seek is commonly obtained and exploited.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 16, 2015, 03:52:55 AM
The remnant magnetization retains the same orientation as when the field is applied.  The coercivity of the material and the strength of the applied field determines the strength of the residual field.  If you want to assert the idea that the field shape changes rather than the field strength changing, I think you need to either find experiments where that has been shown, or perform experiments that show that idea is correct.  A simple test with iron filings surrounding a washer should be adequate.  You could even run the test (this has been done many times) with just iron filings on a sheet of paper or plastic with a wire running through the center. 

The citation establishes that the orientation you seek is commonly obtained and exploited.

I might do a few additional tests because I found a piece of a Sony magnascale core and that rod takes on a field very easy.

You are however skipping the fact that the field orientation is not actually changing. In a horseshoe magnet, the field orientation does not change when a keeper is placed across the ends but yet the external field is gone.

Forming the ring of diametric cylinder magnets did not change the field orientation but still the external field is gone.

The logical prediction is that a cylinder with a circular field will have no external field because it will be retained inside the core, just like all other magnets forming a circular field.

The citation is for the detection of welding flaws and is simply showing the field with current flowing and how the flaw will show up with a distorted field if there is a pocket or crack in the weld and this is understandable. It's not indicating the field will continue to extend off the surface after the current stops flowing.

If such a magnet could be made then it would be very easy to build a magnet motor simply by placing it in another magnets field correctly.
I would like this to be real and work as dreamed, but that does not make it true.


Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MarkE on August 16, 2015, 04:43:01 AM
I might do a few additional tests because I found a piece of a Sony magnascale core and that rod takes on a field very easy.

You are however skipping the fact that the field orientation is not actually changing. In a horseshoe magnet, the field orientation does not change when a keeper is placed across the ends but yet the external field is gone.

Forming the ring of diametric cylinder magnets did not change the field orientation but still the external field is gone.
Apples and oranges.  The keeper is a highly permeable block that changes the field concentration.  It dramatically changes the magnetic path length.   Energizing or deenergizing a magnet does not change the magnetic path.  It changes the magnetic excitation.
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The logical prediction is that a cylinder with a circular field will have no external field because it will be retained inside the core, just like all other magnets forming a circular field.
There is a world of difference between zero and some.  The more permeable the material the less the leakage.  But there is always leakage.  If you go get an iron pipe and energize a wire running through it, yes the leakage will be low, but it will still be there.  You have been wondering if you can get a PM to produce the same field pattern as a copper wire.  The answer is yes.  The material having a higher permeability than copper means that the model is of a powered copper wire inside a core of that permeability.
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The citation is for the detection of welding flaws and is simply showing the field with current flowing and how the flaw will show up with a distorted field if there is a pocket or crack in the weld and this is understandable. It's not indicating the field will continue to extend off the surface after the current stops flowing.
Yes, and so what?  The first requirement is that you can get the same field shape.  The second is retaining the shape.  If your objection is that a field will concentrate in highly permeable material, that has nothing to do with being able to magnetize in a circular pattern or not per se.  Since you would like most of the field to remain outside the core, then that is a matter of materials choice.  You could for example sinter a core of powdered ferrite magnet or ceramic magnet material so as to greatly reduce the permeability, and thereby greatly increase the proportion of the field that extends beyond the core circumference.
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If such a magnet could be made then it would be very easy to build a magnet motor simply by placing it in another magnets field correctly.
I would like this to be real and work as dreamed, but that does not make it true.
You are going to need to explain why you think that would be so.  I don't see where such a conclusion follows at all. 

A motor operates by repeatedly changing the location of the potential energy minimum.  Moving the PE minimum location when the system is at any location other than the new minimum takes work.  Some of that work, and in a well-designed motor almost all of that work, conveys to the motor mechanical output.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 16, 2015, 12:24:01 PM
Lumen, i believe you. It seems that there is no way with permanent magnet motors, or well, any magnet motors.

There seems to be overunity like in my experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 (https://archive.org/details/Flcm3) when the magnets are some distance apart, then some field lines going from pole to pole are still outside the magnets. But this overunity is not enough to overcome friction. Maybe it is possible to achieve continuous rotation, like with magnet bearings, but this is not important theoretically, as it can be shown that there is overunity more easily. And it has no importance whatsoever practically, as the propulsion is so small that it can barely make it rotate. Maybe an effective show to these who don't believe, but i don't know how much the people who don't understand a simple experiment with disk and magnets, should be convinced.

I really made a conclusion that magnets are no way to go, after doing my experiment above. I concluded that the overunity that can be achieved with magnets, is too small for any power generation. And i achieved the theoretical goal, in finding that there is overunity, so i saw no reason to go ahead. So i switched to experiments with a coil and induction http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VdCK7NcuviY (http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VdCK7NcuviY) where i see there really is a perspective of some power generation. The experiments which i think really makes sense to do, but i cannot afford to do them any more. That is, i now have all the equipment, but i cannot afford the time spent to it.

I mean, what should be the advantages of these magnet motors? That they are simple. But now, when going very far, i would say these experiments are not more simple any more than the experiments with coil, and at that they appear to be much more expensive.

So good luck to all of you, i really appreciate the efforts to still try the last possibilities what concerns the magnet motors. But i also think that it is likely a waste of effort, with much too little benefit, an effort which likely would give much more results, if made in the more promising fields such as coils.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 16, 2015, 04:05:52 PM
The  magnetic-field  produced by an  electrical-wire( carrying DC current ) would also contain  an  'Electric-Field'. 
(  there's a  wikipedia page for  'Electric-Field'   )

An   electrical-current   in a wire would also produce   'An Electric-Field' ,    which is actually different from a magnetic-field (  even though they are unified in the special-theory-of-relativity ).   

   Think of how the end of one wire ( connected to a battery ) can detect the nearby other end of another wire ( connected to the same battery ),  so that it knows when to spark it's current  across to the end of the other wire,    or think of   lightning-clouds etc.

And,  I assume this  'Electric-Field'  could also be moving,  in a direction I'm not sure of.

The  'Electric-Field'  may  also interact  with a permanent-magnet  in some way,  SO THAT SHOULD BE TESTED,  A TEST TO SEE how an  PURE  'Electric-Field'  interacts with a  permanent-magnet .
___________________

If you achieve  'properly magnetizing'  a  'donut-shaped-magnet( toroidal permanent-magnet)'  made of,   for example,   tiny-spheres-of-iron,  and fine sand,   then the results would be either of the possibilities below  :

    ( 1 ) -  The  individual   tiny-spheres-of-iron   will have those same   magneti-field  lines you see in the diagrams of  bar-magnets .
            (  But at this very small scale,  the   merge-points  may not be as visible to another magnet it is intended to interact with  )

    ( 2 ) -  If the  individual   tiny-spheres-of-iron  are  close enough to  each other ( on average, in the mixture )  and if that distance was was  'Just The Right Distance',   then some of their   magnetic-flow   would  flow to the  next   tiny-sphere-of-iron,  and go right around the donut-magnet ,     and,   the rest of their  magnetic-flow  would behave the same as the  diagrams of  bar-magnets  .

   So,  you could try and prove if   'Scenario ( 2 )'  is possible,   by finding if   'Just The Right Distance'  can be found in  a  ring  made  of  individual  'flattish-round-magnets'  spaced apart with just air or some material,   the benefit of this method is that you could constantly change the distances between the magnets,  with your hands.
_____________________________

If I could,  I would get a  'donut-shaped-object'   made of  iron( I don't know what alloy ),    I would then somehow use another   'very-powerfull-permanet-magnet'   to induce  a   magnetic-flow   to go in  one direction  around  the   'donut-shaped-bject',    and then on the other side of the   'donut-shaped-bject'  I would make it interact  with  a third  magnet  to see if any  unexplained  movement  can be produced.

______________________________
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 16, 2015, 05:26:07 PM
Apples and oranges.  The keeper is a highly permeable block that changes the field concentration.  It dramatically changes the magnetic path length.   Energizing or deenergizing a magnet does not change the magnetic path.  It changes the magnetic excitation.

The keeper is closing the magnetic loop to retain the loop inside the magnet. It's the same as bending the magnet ends to make a closed loop so the external field is reduced to near zero.
Quote
There is a world of difference between zero and some.  The more permeable the material the less the leakage.  But there is always leakage.  If you go get an iron pipe and energize a wire running through it, yes the leakage will be low, but it will still be there.  You have been wondering if you can get a PM to produce the same field pattern as a copper wire.  The answer is yes.  The material having a higher permeability than copper means that the model is of a powered copper wire inside a core of that permeability.
I agree there is some leakage, but the more circular and consistent the field is, the less leakage exists.
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Yes, and so what?  The first requirement is that you can get the same field shape.  The second is retaining the shape.  If your objection is that a field will concentrate in highly permeable material, that has nothing to do with being able to magnetize in a circular pattern or not per se.  Since you would like most of the field to remain outside the core, then that is a matter of materials choice.  You could for example sinter a core of powdered ferrite magnet or ceramic magnet material so as to greatly reduce the permeability, and thereby greatly increase the proportion of the field that extends beyond the core circumference.
That entire magnetic weld tester is dependent on the flaws to cause more field leakage, that's how it works. Without the flaws there is near zero leakage.
The permeability of the core changes nothing, a ring of weak magnets leaks the same as a ring of strong magnets.
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You are going to need to explain why you think that would be so.  I don't see where such a conclusion follows at all. 

A motor operates by repeatedly changing the location of the potential energy minimum.  Moving the PE minimum location when the system is at any location other than the new minimum takes work.  Some of that work, and in a well-designed motor almost all of that work, conveys to the motor mechanical output.

If all motors worked on that principal then there would not be any reason to pursue the circular field.
However that is not the case in a Faraday motor using only a single field of uniform strength.
A single conductors circular field will direct more flux from the uniform field to one side of the conductor without itself interacting with the uniform field. This imbalance is what pushes the conductor in a continuous circular path in the uniform field as the field tries to maintain uniform spacing.
 
If a magnet could be made to produce the field of a conductor with current, it would be a simple matter to replace the conductor and have a fully permanent magnet motor.
 
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MarkE on August 16, 2015, 05:44:42 PM

The keeper is closing the magnetic loop to retain the loop inside the magnet. It's the same as bending the magnet ends to make a closed loop so the external field is reduced to near zero.
You are saying almost the same thing.  The small but important distinction is that it keeps most, not all of the flux within the magnet and the keeper.
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I agree there is some leakage, but the more circular and consistent the field is, the less leakage exists.That entire magnetic weld tester is dependent on the flaws to cause more field leakage, that's how it works. Without the flaws there is near zero leakage.
I agree.  But the point is that the field can be shaped the way that you want, which is Step 1.  Step 2. is to get the field to persist in that pattern with the power turned off.  And Step 3. is to get a useful amount of the flux to distribute outside the core.  Step 1 has been shown as in the inspection methods.  Steps 2 and 3 are matters of material selection and coming up with a strong enough magnetizing field.
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The permeability of the core changes nothing, a ring of weak magnets leaks the same as a ring of strong magnets. 
Oh, no that is just not true.  Go get two toroids, one made of a power ferrite with a uR of 2000 or so, and another made of powdered iron with a uR of 50 excite them well below the saturation of the ferrite and compare the leakage.
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If all motors worked on that principal then there would not be any reason to pursue the circular field.
I contend that principle is fundamental to all electromechanical actuator designs, not just motors.  You are of course free to argue differently.
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However that is not the case in a Faraday motor using only a single field of uniform strength.
A single conductors circular field will direct more flux from the uniform field to one side of the conductor without itself interacting with the uniform field. This imbalance is what pushes the conductor in a continuous circular path in the uniform field as the field tries to maintain uniform spacing.
I contend that if you do the math, you will find that as long as the motor runs, the conductor never reaches a state of minimum potential but does constantly move towards it.  The position of minimum potential constantly moves with the conductor. 
Quote

If a magnet could be made to produce the field of a conductor with current, it would be a simple matter to replace the conductor and have a fully permanent magnet motor.
That I completely disagree with.  Perhaps this will help:  In order to sustain the current through the conductor, over and above the I*R voltage drop, the power source has to overcome the BEMF.  The useful power conveyed through the motor is limited to the product of the torque generating current and the BEMF voltage.  So, if you make a permanent magnet emulate the field from a wire, in this particular case a straight wire, then you eliminate the I2R losses of the motor, but do nothing to replace the torque current * BEMF product.  That's what PMDC motors do: Eliminate the copper losses associated with creating a magnetic field.  The power that is conveyed through the motor still has to be supplied from the outside, PMs or no PMs.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 16, 2015, 06:07:14 PM
I contend that if you do the math, you will find that as long as the motor runs, the conductor never reaches a state of minimum potential but does constantly move towards it.  The position of minimum potential constantly moves with the conductor. 

How is that possible in a uniform field?
The conductor cannot be seeking a minimum potential because there is none.
If you look closely at the principals of a Faraday motor or Homopolar motor or generator, you will see that these all use a uniform field.
A big misconception is that a generator or motor requires changing flux density to operate.
In fact all magnetically induced generators work only by a conductor cutting flux lines, changing the flux density is only an easy way to achieve it.
 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 16, 2015, 09:32:03 PM
Here Is  A  Slightly  Strange  Solution  To  Making  A  Donut-Shaped-Magnet,   With  The  Magnetic-Field  Running  Around  The Circle / Donut

Make the  Donut  as an empty shell,  and make the shell out of a mesh,  each individual piece of the mesh could be  a  'small'  'Stick-Shaped-Magnet'( small longish  bar-magnet ).   
     For example,  four  small  'Stick-Shaped-Magnets'  make up one  Diamond-shape  of the mesh.

The Reason I Think The Above May Be A Solution  :
    When I read about your  'Welding-Fault-Tester',  it made me wonder  if  the  above   'Donut-Shaped-Magnet' ( made out of the  mesh ),   would  leak  out  some of  it's   magnetic-field   along it's  surface,  because of the principles of the  'Welding-Fault-Tester'.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on August 16, 2015, 10:28:09 PM
Here Is  A  Slightly  Strange  Solution  To  Making  A  Donut-Shaped-Magnet,   With  The  Magnetic-Field  Running  Around  The Circle / Donut

Make the  Donut  as an empty shell,  and make the shell out of a mesh,  each individual piece of the mesh could be  a  'small'  'Stick-Shaped-Magnet'( small longish  bar-magnet ).   
     For example,  four  small  'Stick-Shaped-Magnets'  make up one  Diamond-shape  of the mesh.

The Reason I Think The Above May Be A Solution  :
    When I read about your  'Welding-Fault-Tester',  it made me wonder  if  the  above   'Donut-Shaped-Magnet' ( made out of the  mesh ),   would  leak  out  some of  it's   magnetic-field   along it's  surface,  because of the principles of the  'Welding-Fault-Tester'.

It's not hard to get some or even a large amount of field outside of the circular loop by spacing the magnets, the problem is that in each space that allows the field to exit, it also allows a field to enter.
 
That does not occur in the circular field produced from current flow and that is why it is unique and cannot be generated with magnets.
Each gap has an IN and an OUT when constructed with magnets, but only the OUT exists in the field of a conductor.
It will take a much more complicated approach to achieve if it's ever possible, some new materials and research maybe.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 16, 2015, 10:50:59 PM
Keeping  in  mind  that  each  thin   'magnetic-stick'   making  up the mesh,  is actually physically  touching  the other    thin   'magnetic-sticks'   making  up  just  one  Diamond in  the  mesh,   so  technically no  magnetic-field  should escape  .   
      Every single  pole  of  every single    thin   'magnetic-stick'  ,  is  physically touching the  poles  of  two other   thin   'magnetic-sticks'  .

(  but then I thought about the  'Welding-fault-tester',  and that made me wonder if some of the magnetic-field  could  become  external,   it also reminds me of some science I can't remember now,   involving the  electromagnetic  properties of  mesh   etc  )
____________________________________

But being honest ,  now I'm only interested in the thing  below.

Idea :
'Imagine boats floating on a  Very-Large-Flat-Magnetic-Field (  the  magnetic-field  would be curved up at the edges so the boats don't fall out ),   and the boats could have little weights hanging from their keels to give them stability'

Now I can't work out  why this idea would not work .

(    I would have thought this idea would have been possible for well over a century,  and that if it was possible,   I would already have seen it sometime  )

(  Obviously the   large-flattish-magnet   providing the   magnetic-field   for the boats to float on,  would have an unusual shape to successfully achieve the effect,   such as a  bathtub,   but with a  much less  flat  bottom  )

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 17, 2015, 12:31:55 AM
As i said, my experiment shows, when spacing the magnets, there is overunity. All the problem is that this overunity is too small, not enough to overcome friction, and thus cannot provide continuous rotation. Or maybe it can, with magnetic bearings, but what sense does it make to make such device.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 17, 2015, 01:00:41 AM
Any viable chance to  achieve  'perpetual-motion'  cannot be ignored,  as you know,  you'd make history

(  perpetual-motion  definitely is overunity,  and the most observable  form  )

(  This week I think I have invented a new type of  magnetic-bearing,   I created a new thread for it,  here it is  :    http://overunity.com/15971/a-new-magnetic-bearing-invented-today/msg459122/#msg459122    ,    add a small  'magnetic-bearing'   on the end of the axle to keep the  'rotator'  from  jumping out of the  'static-magnets',  that extra  small  'magnetic-bearing'  could be a   small  'dome-magnet'  being repelled by a  flat-magnet.    You'll notice it is an incredibly simple and naive design,  but I feel confident about it  )

( I thought that another way to overcome   'merge-points'  friction is to place magnets into a  'BRICK-WALL-PATTERN',  so that all the   'merge-points'   counterbalance  each other.  )
____________

(   Maybe,  you could avoid the above work,  and just build  'My boats floating on a Flat-Magnetic-Field  Idea',   which I posted in this thread some hours ago  ' August 16, 2015, 10:50:59 PM',   for  Minimal-Work,  you'd   achieve something very impressive   )
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 17, 2015, 01:09:16 AM
Any viable chance to  achieve  'perpetual-motion'  cannot be ignored,  as you know,  you'd make history

If you think so, you may try https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 (https://archive.org/details/Flcm3) . This works only with magnets such distance apart, if you put them closer, they will flip poles when there is a full circle of them. And use the weakest magnets you can get. These are 5 x 5 x 3 mm ceramic magnets, as much as i can remember. I also tried it with four 7 x 7 x 5 mm magnets, also works. You likely cannot get weaker magnets, don't use magnetic rubber, as it has irregular poles. I wrote about it somewhere here as well, but i don't remember where.

But using that with magnetic bearings, there would likely be other problems. It is a kind of bumpy, and the stator magnet has to go through. Magnetic bearings are not so rigid, and thus it may just "ride on the surface", in which case there will likely not be any effect. Several stator magnets can be used, but they have to be carefully placed, to make the movement even. So at least it would be a very delicate act of balance.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 17, 2015, 01:52:23 AM
Even  though  I can't build anything at ( I'm not exaggerating,  and I can't go into reasons ),   I will examine  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3   very closely.

I would like nothing more than to be convinced that someone has achieved  'Perpetual motion',  or overunity,     that  really would be incredible,  but I soon sense other peoples  delusions  or  fakery (  since I too have believed too much in some of my inventions,  but I have never faked anything  ) .     NOTE :   I Know You Are Not A Faker .
(  Unfortunately,  because of the value of energy,  it would be too hard to cover up or suppress any  achievement  of  perpetual-motion  or  overunity,  because there are too many people who would utilize the discovery immediately  ) 

NOTE :   I Know You Are Not A Faker .
______________

Question
You no longer believe in using magnets,  and you have have replaced them with  coils/induction,  but you use electricity to induce the magnetism in the coils

( 1 ) -  Are the  coils  looped (  the two ends joined to each other )   ?

( 2 ) -  If the   coils are looped ,  then you would also  induce an electrical current in the loop,  and that is no longer like  a  permanent-magnet  ?

( 3 )  If the   coils are not  looped  (  the two ends are not joined to each other ),   then the   magnetic-field  in the loop could  still contain  some of the properties  of the electricity  inducing it,  such as frequency,   (  and maybe even an  'electric-field',  but don't waste time discussing that )     ?
_____________________

Since you are knowledgeable ,  maybe you could examine my  daft  idea below,  because it's so simple,  it has confused me .

Idea :
'Imagine boats floating on a  Very-Large-Flat-Magnetic-Field (  the  magnetic-field  would be curved up at the edges so the boats don't fall out ),   and the boats could have little weights hanging from their keels to give them stability'

Now I can't work out  why this idea would not work .

(    I would have thought this idea would have been possible for well over a century,  and that if it was possible,   I would already have seen it sometime  )

(  Obviously the   large-flattish-magnet   providing the   magnetic-field   for the boats to float on,  would have an unusual shape to successfully achieve the effect,   such as a  flattened-out-bathtub,   but with a  much less  flat  bottom  )
________________________________
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 17, 2015, 02:16:47 AM
Guest1289, talk about the coils there http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VdFQ5tcuviY (http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VdFQ5tcuviY) , not a right place here. In brief, the voltage induced, depends on the speed of switching the current, not on the strength of the initial current, e = df / dt, or such, this is what it is about, very basic, and this is what induction is. Now the induced current should remove the magnetic field, and it will, but these processes have a certain inertia. And this is why there is a voltage spike.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 17, 2015, 07:56:11 PM
Random thought,  wonder  if   'quantum entanglement'  could somehow be the ultimate secret behind  gravity ( and magnetic and electric fields ),  if so,  could it be that by modifying one of two entangled  things,  be the  utimate secret to either turning  off or creating  the above forces
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 17, 2015, 08:19:11 PM
Random thought,  wonder  if   'quantum entanglement'  could somehow be the ultimate secret behind  gravity ( and magnetic and electric fields )

Gravity by the standard model, is particles sucking a kind of space grid, made of Higgs bosons. The Higgs bosons then fly somewhere else, where they form more space grid. The space grid is most likely dynamic, it is that "quantum foam" which fills the vacuum. A huge movement which is the source of the zero point energy, which may be the unknown energy causing the overunity.

But i think quantum entanglement is certainly the ultimate secret. I think the reality is a network, a pure entanglement, having no dimensions. Like the David Bohm's implicate order. The space is formed by a dynamic grid made of that network. Movement in space is just changing connections to the different points on the grid. Moving is thus also change, and change is general. If we understand that network then sure we can do everything, imaginable and unimaginable. But you are thinking about things which you are not supposed to think, this may make you to understand, but you are expected to be limited. Interestingly though, no one agrees to be limited.

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 18, 2015, 01:35:59 PM
I don't know what to say. Try to strongly circularly magnetize a thin ring magnet. Then maybe some field is near the surface. Maybe one may try with coils first, like a piece of iron pipe as a core. The magnetic field in the toroid core should be exactly the same as the circular field in a permanent magnet. See whether it anyhow interacts with a pole of a permanent magnet, in place where the core is exposed, and where are no windings.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 18, 2015, 08:55:36 PM
.
It  seems  I may have just invented a new type  of  brushless( and more efficient ) type of  DC motor,   the statements posted on  http://overunity.com/15978/new-reactionless-motor-from-india/msg459441/#msg459441  ,   prompted me to invent it .

I first posted this invention,  in the above  thread.

My  initial design  is simply a wire carrying Dc current,  causing a  Donut-Shaped  magnet,  to spin on an axle  (  this  Donut could have a normal magnetic-field,  not one running around the circle,  so it's easy to make  ) .

(  Of course that  wire should probably be replaced with either a coil ,  or something similar to multiply the power  )

(  On the above  thread,  I also posted my reasons/theories  why  a  Donut-Shaped-Magnet  with the  magnetic-field  running around  the  circle of the Donut  needs to be created,   it's to prove or  disprove  theories.   But my new  brushless-DC-motor will not need an un-makeable Donut-Shaped-Magnet   )


Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 19, 2015, 05:43:34 PM
(  Of course that  wire should probably be replaced with either a coil ,  or something similar to multiply the power  )

Coil cannot be used in the Faraday's homopolar motor, it doesn't work. You should think things more through before you come up with ideas.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 20, 2015, 05:59:41 PM
( I don't actually know if  the idea I'm posting here,  has already been tried before,  I would just assume it has  )

To make a  Donut-Magnet  with the  magnetic-field  rotating around the circle of the  toroid,  could they not  just use  another  wheel  with very-very-powerfull   SEPARATE  magnets set on it,  and then  just spin the wheel at the required speed

OR

The same process I have typed above,  but the SEPARATE  magnets  would be     'SEPARATE extremely-powerfull Ring-magnets  THAT ACTUALLY COMPLETELY ENCIRCLE the curved-pipe that is the  DONUT,   

     -   I hope I don't have to draw a diagram
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 20, 2015, 07:03:08 PM
     -   I hope I don't have to draw a diagram

I think you have to, but not in this thread. This thread is about permanent magnet motors, that is motors that have permanent magnets only. You can write about any ideas or experiments about these, in this thread.

That is, the problem is how to make any of these, at all. And there may be some things yet to be tried, before concluding whether making a continuously rotating permanent magnet motor is possible at all, and whether it is a way to go. Anyway, it seems to involve some high voltage devices such as stepping up transformers or welding transformers, and high voltage capacitors. And some rigid mechanics equipment, such as fastening mechanical components and bearings. An equipment which is not likely very cheap any more, and thus it may not be easier any more than experiments with coil, and for that reason not the best way to go. Likely more easy to understand than electronics though, i must admit, even the most simple circuit is not exactly simple, as it consists of components that have a complex behavior. But most likely not cheap, and for that reason such experiments may not be affordable for most of the people.

But, there has to be a kind of road map for research. So i think it is, when it appears that the permanent magnets are not a way to go, switch to coils and induction. Or when one cannot afford any more the costs of doing more advanced experiments on permanent magnets. This is also why i said, try coils on different cores, such as pieces of iron pipes, or maybe just a thin winded iron wire, and see whether there is any effect on permanent magnets, because the circular magnetic field in the cores of such coils, should be exactly the same as in the circularly magnetized permanent magnets. This should be affordable to do i think. But, a good coil has 1000 turns, and, the core should be either painted, or covered with a *transparent* plastic.

Guest1289, but what to do is rather your problem, because you decided not to go to electronics, because it is too complicated for you.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 20, 2015, 08:12:23 PM
Here's  the  diagrams

DIAGRAM 1 ( below ) : -   To make a  Donut-Magnet  with the  magnetic-field  rotating around the circle of the  toroid,  could they not  just use  another  wheel  with very-very-powerfull   SEPARATE  magnets set on it,  and then  just spin the wheel at the required speed

OR

DIAGRAM 2 ( below ) : - The same process I have typed above,  but the SEPARATE  magnets  would be     'SEPARATE extremely-powerfull Ring-magnets  THAT ACTUALLY COMPLETELY ENCIRCLE the curved-pipe that is the  DONUT,     and then  just spin the wheel at the required speed
      Obviously,  this option in  'DIAGRAM 2',   would need some method of holding the  Donut-Magnet  while the rings are rotating around it. 
            One way could be that the   magnetizing-rings   would not totally  encircle  the main-ring,  to allow the  main-ring  to be anchored to something.   
            Another way could be that  if the  magnetizing-rings  would be  ELECTROMAGNETS,  then maybe they could actually  LEVITATE  the   main-ring which they are encircling. 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 21, 2015, 04:39:20 AM
You mean, radially magnetized ring magnets, around a circularly magnetized donut magnet, to both make the donut magnet to rotate, and hold it in the air? Yes theoretically, a pole of a magnet and the circularly magnetized magnet, should repulse. So not a bad idea really, if only an external magnet had any effect on a circularly magnetized ring magnet (donut magnet). Also a weak point may be, that a donut magnet is thick, but circularly magnetized ring magnet may have to be thin, so that there maybe is some circular magnetic field on the surface. Well, another weak point, when the ring magnets are around the donut magnet, and the donut magnet rotates, then it is very difficult to extract energy from the rotating donut magnet, anyhow. But, when the donut magnet stands still, and the ring magnets revolve, then it's easy to extract energy from the revolving ring magnets, just by having a coil near them. Well, that again cannot be done, maybe they should be a kind of u shape magnets...

Well, i remember somewhere a similar idea. Like a donut shape pipe, and likely a radially magnetized magnet, moving inside that pipe. But as much as i know, no one has yet made such thing.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on August 30, 2015, 09:27:26 PM
Ok, i put my drawing of the magnetic bearings here, too, say it's wrong ;)

There is one reason though why magnetic bearings may not be a solution. And this is because when the magnetic field of the rotor is not even, it is a kind of "bumpy". And magnetic bearings don't hold the rotor firmly in place. Thus the rotor would shake, and this is where the energy would be lost.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: SoManyWires on August 31, 2015, 08:29:15 AM
Ok, i put my drawing of the magnetic bearings here, too, say it's wrong ;)

There is one reason though why magnetic bearings may not be a solution. And this is because when the magnetic field of the rotor is not even, it is a kind of "bumpy". And magnetic bearings don't hold the rotor firmly in place. Thus the rotor would shake, and this is where the energy would be lost.

the floating objects dimensions might get past that, if they are covering more surface area than 3 or 4 of the tracks lower surface magnet fields.
also there is other side positioned magnets to act as side stabilizers that could also be fixed in place in a less permanent and more adjustable way, if that too is useful.

perhaps magnets ordered according to the diameter of a drill bit used on small plastic blocks of which to position the magnets, and on the blocks create slotted channels or larger diameter holes that a washer and hex or other fasteners can hold the magnet blocks into place though allowing for very gradient adjustability on the projects jig work area.

some types of welding jigs are good examples for being adjustable when thinking about how to design a testing platform.
even standard pegboard that was meant to mount on walls for hooks could be repurposed for the exact geometry they have for lining things up better if drilling by hand is less accurate and no cnc machine around.
if working with small magnets, you might even be able to modify lego blocks cheaply for all this because they can keep perfect alignment, are non conductive, and unless a 45 or other non linear angles are needed, are easy to relocate.

could also help reduce chipping magnets during possibly alot of position adjustments using this method until fixed proper locations are determined.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on August 31, 2015, 04:48:11 PM
Yesterday ,  in another thread,  I suggested a modification of  ayeaye 's  magnetic-bearing,  the  Diagram  below .  The  Large-Disk in the middle,  is a magnetic-disk,  for repulsion from the side  stators .

(  Obviously,  all the magnets which cause the actual  'Levitation', those magnets should be much longer than the very flattish/thinnish magnets I have drawn in the diagram,  they should be cylinder-magnets   )

(  Years ago I thought up almost the same design (  actually the one below )  as  ayeaye 's.   But I thought it was so obvious  that it would already have been tried.  So because I had never seen it on the internet or anywhere,  I assumed it was worthless,  so I just decided to forget about it .   )

(  You'll notice I don't actually have your experience in this field,  which is why I'm not sure if  ayeaye  has a reason for not putting a  magnetic-disc  in the middle   )

As far as I know,  ayeaye  is the first person to have published this idea .

(  I have noticed more than one prize offered for anyone who can disprove rules of physics,   if   ayeaye 's   idea gets around   'Earnshaw's Theorem'  ,   he should consider applying for the prizes   )
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 02, 2015, 03:38:21 AM
Well, i tried it. I too have no tools. But i happened to have two big cigarette lighters, and a pencil, not sharpened. So i fixed two disc magnets to the end of each cigarette lighter, with a mounting tape. And i put a piece of mounting tape below each cigarette lighter, to fix them to the table. To fix them to the table so that they face each other with the ends with magnets on them. Then i fixed disc magnets to both ends of the pencil, with a mounting tape. The magnets were all ceramic disc magnets 10 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick. Mounting tape fixed the magnets firmly, there was no problem with this. All this arrangement was quite good, and everything was well adjustable. The pencil was very long, too, so some rotor can be attached to the middle, with practically no magnetic interference with the bearing magnets.

Now what the results were. I put the pencil, that supposed to be the rotor, between the two cigarette lighters. It held very well side wise, between the bearing magnets, side wise it was completely stable on both sides, no problem with that. But along the direction of the axis it was not stable, and ended up falling down, to one end or the other. So there was no way to keep it in the air.

Now i don't have any clear idea how to solve that. It needs either ring magnets, or then somehow extending the axis beyond the magnets at the ends of the pencil. Mounting tape likely cannot do that alone, but together with some adhesive tape wrapped around, it might be possible. The forces are not great at all. But the magnets that hold the rotor in place lengthwise, cannot be near the two bearing magnets, that will remove the "groove" the magnets at the ends of the pencil sit in.

Maybe now someone else would continue that experiment, from the point where i ended? Why should i be the only one who does experiments on that great thing? As i don't have anything necessary for it, more than anyone else has.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 02, 2015, 04:40:39 AM
I found a stable position! On the picture below, the end of the pencil stays in the air. The other end was though 40 mm on a cigarette pack. This couldn't hold the other end of the pencil in the air, but it slightly resisted the pencil's lengthwise movement. Finding the stable position was very difficult. The magnets at the ends of the two cigarette lighters were oriented so that they attracted each other, but repulsed the corresponding pole of the disc magnet at the end of the pencil.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 02, 2015, 07:14:08 PM
Now another stable position on the picture below. This time the other end of the pencil was only 20 mm on the cigarette pack. But this time the pencil had some extra weight of lead on it. It seems though that there is a small stable spot between these magnets. But if so, it's very small, and going slightly out of it, makes the end of the pencil to fall to some of the magnets.

That's all the experiment i can do with this arrangement i think. Who can think about some other ways, would be welcome to experiment some more.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on September 02, 2015, 08:18:48 PM
What your'e trying to build,   and modify to get around  "Earnshaws Theorem"  is called   'Mendocino' bearing or motor or system .

I know you can't waste more time building that,  since it's outside of your usual field  'electronics' .

(  I assume you look at the  youtube videos of this bearing  )

(  Sorry that I can't build anything,  there's nothing I can do to change that  )

However,  I have sent you some  important  further information in a message
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 02, 2015, 09:21:19 PM
Thank you for Mendocino, no, i didn't know that before, but it is slightly different. The Mendocino bearing is made so that lengthwise there is a push only to one direction, and the end of the pencil goes against some glass or something, and rotates on that. I suggested that it can be stable also lengthwise, but couldn't completely prove it, as the possible stable spot seems to be very small.

The Nikolayev trailer hitch is another possibility of course, when the rotor hangs from it or something. This is really a stable system for magnetic bearing, and can be used. The only problem, it needs a very big ring magnet, or maybe it can be a disc magnet, but it has to be big, so it easily interferes with any magnet motor there can be on the rotor.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 03, 2015, 07:38:27 PM
But Mendocino bearings, they can be used in magnet motors, when the problem is not completely solved. They have a kind of one pin bearing (a needle against the surface), yes. But the force to that bearing is very small. It is much smaller than all the weight of the rotor were on the bearing, the force is very small, it is just to keep the rotor lengthwise in balance.

Enough for a practical solution, i think. I didn't want to solve any theoretical problems, but as i didn't know about the Mendocino bearings, i had to figure it out. And in the process i happened to find that there may be some way how such bearings may be completely in balance, that is completely in the air, with no physical contact.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on September 03, 2015, 09:17:34 PM
I have sent you another message about this bearing, and connected things,  you'll see in the message
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: forumblog on September 08, 2015, 08:32:12 PM
I would assume that the  following device is just the result of the  un-winding of the string
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2YRPNHz9c

I have also seen diagrams of this which related to the research/work regarding  siberian kolya .

But it would be a great basis for a some type of  magnetic-bearing ,  even if only for home use
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 08, 2015, 10:15:02 PM
I would assume that the  following device is just the result of the  un-winding of the string
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2YRPNHz9c

I don't know, how can it be that way? Rotating like that should wind the thread, so it cannot rotate for so long. But i don't know. Sometimes, hanging a magnet from a thread in my hand like this, i like got an impression that it rotates infinitely around the bigger magnet. But whenever i fix the end of thread anywhere, it only rotates until it winds the thread. This, hanging from a thread, may be very deceptive though. The magnetic forces act in a weird way, and what happens just because of the initial kinetic energy, may look like moving because of some power. One thing, as much as i have seen, a magnet in that arrangement will never start to move from a standing position.

Anyway, this is no miracle there. Unless it starts from a static position, or rotates for an hour like this. Like hang something from a thread, without any magnet, make it to rotate, and you see that it can rotate quite a long.

About the magnetic bearings, again i think that the Mendocino bearings are the best for experiments. Very easy to make, from very ordinary magnets, and the pressure to the mechanical bearing is very small, it is rather just a balancing. And a kind of bearings which one can use, when one has no bearings. Mendocino bearings are something like on my picture above, plus the end of the pencil goes against some surface, Not exactly, but i think one gets the idea.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on September 09, 2015, 12:10:18 AM
It's in orbit as you see the speed increase as the orbit lowers. (compare speed at start and end of video)
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2YRPNHz9c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2YRPNHz9c)
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 10, 2015, 07:53:47 PM
You put two disc magnets like on the drawing below. You really feel the rotating force. But the question is how to utilize that. Because the force down is a lot greater. Causes a lot of friction to the bearings, so that the rotating force cannot overcome that. Even with magnetic bearings it's hard to compensate the force down.

This may be just my subjective feeling. But you may try it and say whether you feel the same.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 12, 2015, 05:47:11 PM
I tried it that way, on the picture below. This is actually a cigarette pack, the axis are made from paperclips (removed plastic from them and used pliers to bend them), and fixed with a mounting tape. No luck, no rotation. So the rotating force may be there, but it is evidently very small, so it is not possible to show it in any feasible way. I would say it rotated a bit, when the disc was slightly out of balance. What i can say though, when placing another disc magnet near that rotating disc magnet as shown in the previous post, and do it carefully so that it is exactly radial, then the rotating disc magnet did not move at all in the direction of its axis, but remained perfectly still. Just who may try experiments like that, so they know it can be done that way, yet it cannot be made to rotate.

Thus so far, only my field lines chain experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 (https://archive.org/details/Flcm3) seems to provide any overunity. How to make friction so small that it would rotate continuously, if that can be done at all, is another question though.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: forumblog on September 13, 2015, 02:08:32 AM
ayeaye
Quote
Thus so far, only my field lines chain experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 seems to provide any overunity. How to make friction so small that it would rotate continuously, if that can be done at all, is another question though.

    For some reason,  it's too difficult to properly see  Flcm3  in the video in the above webpage,   the video quality and video size on that page is not great,  and I have trouble making that video run smoothly .

     If you really think you have something,  please draw a diagram showing the essential components and principle.   
      I know you don't like drawing on the computer,  a lot of people don't,  but try  'Paint' ( just press 'shift' when you have the  'oval'  symbol selected,  and it will draw a symmetrical circle ), and if you can print on paper,  you can finnish the diagram manually.

     Most people interested in magnet-motors, wonder if the principles of the magnetic-rail-guns can be applied to a rotating magnet-motor .

     Regarding the  Disc-Magnet  questions
       Its not supposed to be a simple  disc-magnet,   it's actually a composite magnet in the shape of a  disc-magnet,   look at the second example in the diagram below
          http://perm-med.ru/SIBERIAN_COLIA_3.jpg

       You can find it in the following webpages,   and they also contain many similar and related designs (  but theyre not in english ) :
                  http://perm-med.ru/kfs_physics.html

                  http://realstrannik.ru/forum/48-temy-freeenergylt-antanasa/135031-sibirskij-kolya.html

                  http://cyberenergy.ru/transgeneratory/nikolaev-skalyarnoe-magnitnoe-pole-t64.html

          But,  check out the  related device in the diagram below,  I think it's not as simple as it looks ( you would have to think of it using a diagram of the  magnetic-fields  of a  Donut-magnet,  the magnetic-field  diagram for the  Siberian-Colia   )
           I would have thought that in the diagram below ,  that  one  of the 2 smaller disc-magnets should be  turned  180-degrees around,  to face the other way, to give it a chance of functioning
               http://savepic.org/6043523.htm   

          Here is a very useful page about this,  in the site you are in now
            http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/120/#.VfSnh9Kqqko

          Inspect the first rows of image results in the image-search below
          https://www.google.es/search?q=siberian+colia%22&biw=1014&bih=446&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMI9_inqb_yxwIVQgQaCh0fFgtD#tbm=isch&q=%22siberian+colia%22

         Or,  just paste  "siberian colia" in any google-powered  search engine and you'll see the same results.

       ( But as you know,  using 2 symmetrical  disc-magnets,  neither would have a reason to  rotate,  because it could not gain any advantage in rotating,   since it's symmetrical,   but if I tried,  I could think up reasons why it might have a reason to rotate.
         This again brings up the question,  why does  Faraday's Motor( electric-motor ) work,  it's all symmetrical,  but one of the 2 magnets is an  electromagnet  )

      Now here is the thing, I cannot figure out
          Look at the levitation novelty-toy  below 
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNRDvDIqD1M 
        I would use the idea above,   but I would replace the  diamagnetic  floating object,  with a  Permanent-Magnet  floating object. 
         I think that if you you used a much larger  grid-of-magnets /  array-of-magnets,  in that video,   and then put a   large-flat-magnetic-sled  on the grid,   to levitate above the grid,   that it would levitate successfully,   and  if you put side magnets to keep the sled from  falling out of the grid,    then it would  break  'Earnshaw's Theorem'(  'Earnshaw's Theorem'  states that magnetic levitation using only permanent-magnets,  is impossible,  and has never been done )  .
            The toy shop for that video has alot of useful things.
            (  Permanent-magnet  arrays / grids  seem to be the answer to breaking   'Earnshaw's Theorem',  it would be quite an achievement   )
           
        I cannot figure why this all  permanent-magnet levitation idea would not work
           
           

     

 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 13, 2015, 06:21:31 AM
     If you really think you have something,  please draw a diagram showing the essential components and principle.

I don't know what diagram to draw. I can describe what it shows there.

These are small ceramic magnets, 5 mm x 5 mm x 3 mm. The orientation of the magnets is this, when looking towards the edge of the disk:

[N S]    [N S]    [N S]    [N S]    [N S]    [N S]

The stator magnet is towards the disk with the north pole.

Now when moving the disk so that the stator magnet is at the peak of the repulsion force of the first magnet, then moving slightly to one or another direction from that point and releasing the disk, makes the disk to move either in one or another direction. When moving backwards, away from the chain of magnets, the disk moves only because of the repulsion force of the first magnet. We used energy to move the disk to the peak of the repulsion force of the first magnet, thus how much the disk moves backwards, is the measure of that initial energy that we gave to the disk.

The result was that the disk moved by the chain of magnets some two times more than backwards. Which indicates that such chain of magnets supposed to give the disk some additional energy.

This experiment was done by hand, that is, the disk was moved to the initial position by hand. Thus its only importance is that it can be replicated. The disk has to be moved to the initial position accurately, who has worked with permanent magnets, knows how to feel the peak of force.

I have also found that the experiment gives the same results with four 7 x 7 x 5 mm ceramic magnets, which are easier to obtain, but the results are a bit worse. Such stronger magnets have to be put at i guess two times greater distances from each other than the magnets in the original experiment. I said that somewhere here earlier.

It is not possible to achieve a continuous rotation with a chain of magnets like this, the disk and bearings like this, which was an old processor fan. Because the additional energy is too small to overcome friction.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 13, 2015, 02:00:40 PM
Forumblog,

The rotation force in all cases, my experiment, my previous post, and the faraday's homopolar motor, is due to the same reason, movement by field lines, as drawn on the image below. This causes two forces, movement by field lines and repulsion, as shown on the drawing below. At that the repulsion may be much greater force than movement by field lines, which may make it difficult if not impossible to utilize the effect, as said in my post before.

The overunity is possibly caused by the fact that during the magnetic interaction (that is in interaction of magnets, magnets and current, magnetic induction and induction in the faraday's homopolar generator) the speed of the electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom (dipole) does not decrease. Which increases the order at the zero point, thus decreasing the energy at the zero point, and may come from the zero point energy. Some physicists have also shown that the energy of the dipoles comes from the zero point energy. But this is a speculation, it's better to say that the things are how they are. Because any possible explanation may happen to be wrong, and thus providing such explanation may make the results of the experiments not valid.

But this is the reason why i'm doing experiments not only on magnet motors, but also on magnetic induction https://archive.org/details/ndischarge (https://archive.org/details/ndischarge) . In fact, this field lines chain experiment above, made me to conclude that there is overinity in permanent magnets, but achieving continuous rotation in permanent magnet motors is not possible, no matter how the permanent magnet motors are made. Or it can be possible, but in some extreme cases using very advanced technical solutions, and the energy that can be extracted from that is extremely small.

Which makes permanent magnet motors first unpractical, and second difficult to replicate. Which removes all the benefit of them in the experiments done in places like here, because the only value they can have is that they can be replicated by a number of people. But at that, like as you see the popularity of this thread, people prefer permanent magnets to any electronics, as they think that they are simpler. Finding solutions in extreme cases as it turned out to be in the case of permanent magnet motors, is likely not simpler at all, but people believe that, so the permanent magnet motors cannot be abandoned.

PS I'm using linux, so i use gimp for image processing, and also drawing. The difference of gaussians gives in fact very good results, i had to use it before.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: SoManyWires on September 13, 2015, 09:13:22 PM
ayeaye
    For some reason,  it's too difficult to properly see  Flcm3  in the video in the above webpage,   the video quality and video size on that page is not great,  and I have trouble making that video run smoothly .

     If you really think you have something,  please draw a diagram showing the essential components and principle.   
      I know you don't like drawing on the computer,  a lot of people don't,  but try  'Paint' ( just press 'shift' when you have the  'oval'  symbol selected,  and it will draw a symmetrical circle ), and if you can print on paper,  you can finnish the diagram manually.

     Most people interested in magnet-motors, wonder if the principles of the magnetic-rail-guns can be applied to a rotating magnet-motor .

     Regarding the  Disc-Magnet  questions
       Its not supposed to be a simple  disc-magnet,   it's actually a composite magnet in the shape of a  disc-magnet,   look at the second example in the diagram below
          http://perm-med.ru/SIBERIAN_COLIA_3.jpg

       You can find it in the following webpages,   and they also contain many similar and related designs (  but theyre not in english ) :
                  http://perm-med.ru/kfs_physics.html

                  http://realstrannik.ru/forum/48-temy-freeenergylt-antanasa/135031-sibirskij-kolya.html

                  http://cyberenergy.ru/transgeneratory/nikolaev-skalyarnoe-magnitnoe-pole-t64.html

          But,  check out the  related device in the diagram below,  I think it's not as simple as it looks ( you would have to think of it using a diagram of the  magnetic-fields  of a  Donut-magnet,  the magnetic-field  diagram for the  Siberian-Colia   )
           I would have thought that in the diagram below ,  that  one  of the 2 smaller disc-magnets should be  turned  180-degrees around,  to face the other way, to give it a chance of functioning
               http://savepic.org/6043523.htm   

          Here is a very useful page about this,  in the site you are in now
            http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/120/#.VfSnh9Kqqko

          Inspect the first rows of image results in the image-search below
          https://www.google.es/search?q=siberian+colia%22&biw=1014&bih=446&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMI9_inqb_yxwIVQgQaCh0fFgtD#tbm=isch&q=%22siberian+colia%22

         Or,  just paste  "siberian colia" in any google-powered  search engine and you'll see the same results.

       ( But as you know,  using 2 symmetrical  disc-magnets,  neither would have a reason to  rotate,  because it could not gain any advantage in rotating,   since it's symmetrical,   but if I tried,  I could think up reasons why it might have a reason to rotate.
         This again brings up the question,  why does  Faraday's Motor( electric-motor ) work,  it's all symmetrical,  but one of the 2 magnets is an  electromagnet  )

      Now here is the thing, I cannot figure out
          Look at the levitation novelty-toy  below 
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNRDvDIqD1M 
        I would use the idea above,   but I would replace the  diamagnetic  floating object,  with a  Permanent-Magnet  floating object. 
         I think that if you you used a much larger  grid-of-magnets /  array-of-magnets,  in that video,   and then put a   large-flat-magnetic-sled  on the grid,   to levitate above the grid,   that it would levitate successfully,   and  if you put side magnets to keep the sled from  falling out of the grid,    then it would  break  'Earnshaw's Theorem'(  'Earnshaw's Theorem'  states that magnetic levitation using only permanent-magnets,  is impossible,  and has never been done )  .
            The toy shop for that video has alot of useful things.
            (  Permanent-magnet  arrays / grids  seem to be the answer to breaking   'Earnshaw's Theorem',  it would be quite an achievement   )
           
        I cannot figure why this all  permanent-magnet levitation idea would not work
           
           

     

thoughtful and well said.

i too subscribe to this understanding about magnetics.

sometimes the possible, is not truely impossible. one must remain optimistic about the evolving future.

cheers
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 13, 2015, 10:09:51 PM
One thing about this composite disc magnet, of siberian colia i guess. This may remove part of the negative repulsion, and negative attraction, because the other half of the magnet is opposite. Maybe. This like more emulates a circular field, and the magnets emulating circular field are a kind of composite magnets. But it is not a completely circular field.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: sm0ky2 on September 14, 2015, 08:00:09 PM
Howard Johnson used composite magnets, and wrote extensively on the subject.

when used properly, one can gain complete control of how, and where the magnetic field bends, expands, contracts.
advanced techniques can build up "magnetic pressure", causing it to release at a certain point
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 14, 2015, 08:47:50 PM
when used properly, one can gain complete control of how, and where the magnetic field bends, expands, contracts.

Yes whatever but, i think overunity still comes from movement by field lines. And the problem is, there is overunity, but this overunity is too small on permanent magnets.

Isn't making things with permanent magnets like, go fishing, and then go to fish in a place where you can get only tiny fish, while there are places where you can catch fish several feet long? More difficult to catch these bigger fishes, sure, you certainly need some better equipment. But it's worth of that.

What i mean is that's the same, the overunity is caused by the same things. But like in induction there is likely more of it, and things can be controlled more. Permanent magnets are like inconvenient packages, where good and bad are always packed together. Something like a pizza, but there is very little meat in it. You can eat more of that pizza, but you cannot eat too much. So no matter what, you cannot get enough what you need from that pizza.

I think some here don't like me now, thinking i'm a pessimist. They don't see that i'm an optimist, willing to do whatever it takes to get overunity. Even with permanent magnets. But, all there is, is that i think that it's better to use one's efforts in a more efficient way, not to stick to the solutions which very unlikely give much positive.

Oh and, someone said, magnetic gun. Magnetic gun is moving by field lines. Maybe it works better though with a radially magnetized moving magnet, or such. And again, try to achive a continuous rotation with that, may well not be possible.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: SoManyWires on September 14, 2015, 10:40:07 PM
Yes whatever but, i think overunity still comes from movement by field lines. And the problem is, there is overunity, but this overunity is too small on permanent magnets.

Isn't making things with permanent magnets like, go fishing, and then go to fish in a place where you can get only tiny fish, while there are places where you can catch fish several feet long? More difficult to catch these bigger fishes, sure, you certainly need some better equipment. But it's worth of that.

What i mean is that's the same, the overunity is caused by the same things. But like in induction there is likely more of it, and things can be controlled more. Permanent magnets are like inconvenient packages, where good and bad are always packed together. Something like a pizza, but there is very little meat in it. You can eat more of that pizza, but you cannot eat too much. So no matter what, you cannot get enough what you need from that pizza.

I think some here don't like me now, thinking i'm a pessimist. They don't see that i'm an optimist, willing to do whatever it takes to get overunity. Even with permanent magnets. But, all there is, is that i think that it's better to use one's efforts in a more efficient way, not to stick to the solutions which very unlikely give much positive.

Oh and, someone said, magnetic gun. Magnetic gun is moving by field lines. Maybe it works better though with a radially magnetized moving magnet, or such. And again, try to achive a continuous rotation with that, may well not be possible.

na, its easy to appreciate different perspectives.
the most logical perspectives based on your evaluations made such as your experiments with magnets do actually help.

can't hate over that.

you've actually made efforts at attempting to understand permanent magnet principles, and you did so constructing testing apparatus.
not many people have even gone that far. and even though the results were not what was hoped for with the experiments, never the less
you did try. that is still worthy of a salute.

and you even still think a continuous rotation is not yet proven entirely possible.
its good you too have allowed this consideration should anyone get to making that happen eventually.

and without the ad nausium of scams that do nothing to help further researchers to work in a less polluted environment,
as they basically aim fill their wallets with dirty money as they rob decent people and aim to do so with little conscience.

i too can see the logic in your evaluation and respect your choices in venturing less further in such direction.
there are lots of already working and useful products available to people that have been proven to work,
and it can be a good thing to try and find improvements with those if so inspired, it might be something like a better solar tracking design, power storage, hydrogen, others, even with things such as the medical field or even helping the lives of patients to become a little less challenging, or a better pizza, if that is possible by finding ways to get it to be a more balanced diet using additives without making it more expensive. and maybe 3d printable.
rather than focusing on trying to rewrite any established physics laws, honestly.
time management is something you understand well.

all the best
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 15, 2015, 02:20:05 AM
Thank you :)

Rewriting the laws of physics, i don't know, not inevitably necessary. Like the first law of thermodynamics says nothing about any energy at 0 degrees kelvin.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: SoManyWires on September 15, 2015, 03:06:48 AM
Thank you :)

Rewriting the laws of physics, i don't know, not inevitably necessary. Like the first law of thermodynamics says nothing about any energy at 0 degrees kelvin.

your welcome chief.
i should probably be posting this somewhere else instead on this site, though you might find this interesting to know about atoms being able to be transferred from colder temps than 0 degrees kelvin, to degrees of warmer temps still colder than kelvin. it did involve some useful magnetic fields in the projects construction, though it is not a permanent magnet motor.
also in their 2013 study they had to utilize a reasonable amount of energy to create the effect, and it was not creating excess energy.
they do suggest supercooling could eventually result in more efficient looping energy transfer.




"We have created the first negative absolute temperature state for moving particles," said researcher Simon Braun at the University of Munich in Germany.

New kinds of engines

Negative temperatures could be used to create heat engines — engines that convert heat energy to mechanical work, such as combustion engines — that are more than 100-percent efficient, something seemingly impossible. Such engines would essentially not only absorb energy from hotter substances, but also colder ones. As such, the work the engine performed could be larger than the energy taken from the hotter substance alone.

Negative temperatures might also help shed light on one of the greatest mysteries in science. Scientists had expected the gravitational pull of matter to slow down the universe's expansion after the Big Bang, eventually bringing it to a dead stop or even reversing it for a "Big Crunch." However, the universe's expansion is apparently speeding up, accelerated growth that cosmologists suggest may be due to dark energy, an as-yet-unknown substance that could make up more than 70 percent of the cosmos.

full article here and links to further info if interested
http://www.livescience.com/25959-atoms-colder-than-absolute-zero.html
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: tinman on September 15, 2015, 03:02:56 PM

How is that possible in a uniform field?

A big misconception is that a generator or motor requires changing flux density to operate.
In fact all magnetically induced generators work only by a conductor cutting flux lines, changing the flux density is only an easy way to achieve it.

It's no wonder things never get anywhere with this kind of thinking.
How on earth can a conductor cut lines of flux that dont exist?-->there are no magnetic lines of flux-the field is uniform.
The change in magnetic flux density is exactly what causes a current to flow through an inductor/conductor,not some imaginary lines of flux being cut.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: lumen on September 15, 2015, 05:25:04 PM
It's no wonder things never get anywhere with this kind of thinking.
How on earth can a conductor cut lines of flux that dont exist?-->there are no magnetic lines of flux-the field is uniform.
The change in magnetic flux density is exactly what causes a current to flow through an inductor/conductor,not some imaginary lines of flux being cut.

You might want to research that a bit more. Flux lines do not exist but are used to show field direction.
It is in fact a conductor cutting a magnetic field that causes current flow and density is only a stronger field.
The Faraday generator uses a uniform field and yet the conductor has current flow.

This was 6th grade science

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 15, 2015, 10:08:38 PM
It is in fact a conductor cutting a magnetic field that causes current flow

Everything magnetic is because of the dynamic movement of electrons in the dipoles (atoms). When the magnetic field lines cut the wire, so to say, what likely really happens is that the electrons on one side of the nucleus, moving in one direction, come "closer" to the wire, in that they are less behind the positive charge of the nucleus. And the electrons at the other side of the nucleus, moving in the opposite direction, move "away" from the wire. Both of which cause the electrons in the wire to move in the same direction. For the same reason as the magnetic induction, which i described in a separate thread here.

But the induction by field lines cutting the wire is yes, not caused by the increase of the magnetic field, but rather by movement of the axis. Like when it's summer, the sun is not closer to the earth, but the earth axis is orientated so that the sunlight comes to a certain areas more at a greater angle.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: tinman on September 16, 2015, 06:19:52 AM
You might want to research that a bit more. Flux lines do not exist but are used to show field direction.
It is in fact a conductor cutting a magnetic field that causes current flow and density is only a stronger field.
The Faraday generator uses a uniform field and yet the conductor has current flow.

This was 6th grade science

Well you must have faild 6th grade.
Go and have another look at the homopolar generator where the magnts move with the conducting disk. Now-how is that conductor moving in relationship with the magnets?-where and how is that conductor cutting the imaginary lines of flux.

You guys make me laugh. Here you are trying to explain the workings of magnetism, and yet you have no idea as to what the magnetic force is.

When you hold a ball in your hand while you are seated in a vehicle doing 70mph, the ball is not moving when the car is used as your reference point, but is moving at 70mph when that reference point is one without motion. Now apply this to the homopolar generator with and without the magnets being fixed, and see how you go.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 16, 2015, 07:53:41 AM
In the Faraday's homopolar generator, as i already said, the forces to the electron in the disc, when the dipoles move circularly, before and after they pass the electron, form two vectors with the same force, which are at an angle from each other. The vector sum of these vectors is radial, and this makes electrons in the disc to move radially.

Now what is important is the movement of dipoles relative to electons. Electrons in a metal form an electron gas, which is independent of atoms, thus the electrons don't necessarily move together with atoms (dipoles). And in the homopolar generator, electrons are also not given a circular speed, they are only given a radial speed. This is why the effect happens also in a rotating permanent magnet made of metal, such as in the DePalma's n-machine. There when the magnet rotates, the dipoles in the magnet rotate, but the free electrons don't rotate, and thus the dipoles rotate relative to the electrons in the magnet.

Weirdly though, what is important is the movement of dipoles relative to the electrons. But if in the Faraday's homopolar generator we rotate the magnets, and the disc stands still, no current is generated. This though doesn't mean that relative motion is not important, this may mean that the rotation of the disc has some additional effect, like it makes the electrons more free.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MagnaProp on September 25, 2015, 05:47:14 AM
You put two disc magnets like on the drawing below. You really feel the rotating force...
I have felt this force also but it is misleading. Spent a lot of time on this. An easier way of visualizing what is happening is to keep the bottom magnet stationary and feel the force of the other magnet trying to rotate around it. Assuming the bottom magnet can't move, the other magnet tries to rotate around the red axis and then flop down so the S and N poles touch each other if you let them. But if you hold the top magnet in between your fingers on the side, then it feels like it wants to rotate around the edge of the bottom magnet. But I found this is only because as the top magnet tries to rotate around the red axis, you unknowingly apply equal pressure to prevent the magnet from rotating and this pressure is what actually makes the magnet feel like it wants to move forward. It's because you are unknowingly pushing it forward while keeping it aligned to the edge of the bottom magnet.

Since your bottom magnet can move, what you are feeling is it trying to rotate around that same red axis to get the S and N poles lined up. As you can see, the red axis is not in the center of the large bottom magnet so it won't spin if its rotation point is put in the center as in your test.

So basically the magnets just try to get to the edge of the other magnet. The easiest way possible depending on how they are hinged. I made a magnet motor design on paper based on this but I seriously doubt it will work in real life.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 25, 2015, 11:52:24 AM
An easier way of visualizing what is happening is to keep the bottom magnet stationary and feel the force of the other magnet trying to rotate around it.

Why to do it that way, making things more unclear?

The feeling is very subjective, i know, and not really an evidence, but at least one has to do it the right way to feel it. The feeling is that the rotating magnet rotates more easily in one direction, than in the other.

If you make a magnet motor like that, it most likely will not work, because even if there is a rotating force, it cannot overcome friction. Good if there were a way to measure forces, like maybe using some quartz crystals.

Maybe one can try to hang it from the nikolayev trailer hitch, then likely at least two stator magnets have to be used on both sides, to balance it. But i suspect that the nikolayev trailer hitch is very unstable radially. The only way i have seen it used is that they put a pipe through this large disc magnet, and the hanging magnet is inside that pipe. I have thought, is that pipe also to prevent the hanging magnet from moving radially, if so, it cannot really be used as a magnetic bearing.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MagnaProp on September 25, 2015, 01:30:10 PM
Why to do it that way, making things more unclear?...
Sorry. It's easier for me to understand that way. If the bottom magnet moves then maybe this image is easier to understand. It will want to move 90 degrees clockwise, then stop. It will want to pivot around the vertical red line axis if allowed to.

The only reason it may feel like it wants to rotate like a wheel is because table friction is essentially pinning it down along the orange vertical axis, which causes its right side to move into the page trying to obtain the same orientation as in the first scenario.

...If you make a magnet motor like that, it most likely will not work, because even if there is a rotating force, it cannot overcome friction...
Yes, friction is the biggest issue in my design. Its only hope is that the magnets are stronger than the friction and a couple other things. It would be a miracle if it self ran and an even bigger miracle if you could extract any electricity from it :-[
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 25, 2015, 02:21:24 PM
Magnaprop, i think try to use the mendocino magnetic bearings, read this thread above, the best solution i think so far, though not completely frictionless. Very easy to make too, you need only six disc magnets, a pencil or something, and maybe the best a piece of glass, such as a small mirror, to decrease friction. A bit of an act of balancing though. Sure two stator magnets at both sides to balance the radial forces. Maybe use some cardboard box to hold it all, or make it, use mounting tape to fix things, then you can adjust them all. Well, i in fact made the thing out of old cigarette lighters, but not sure whether this thing can be made that way. In hope it may help.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MagnaProp on September 25, 2015, 11:19:10 PM
Magnaprop, i think try to use the mendocino magnetic bearings...
Thanks I may try that but the design I'm working with causes more friction than even regular bearings cause. Slight design flaw on my part perhaps. The design is similar to your design. I think it works by acting like a long magnet with strong mushroom shaped poles at the ends but not much force in between.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on September 26, 2015, 02:16:53 PM
Put a paper on it, and iron filings on that paper, then you see what is the shape of the magnetic field, and you see the field lines. Iron filings are, if you have a file, and a piece of iron, such as a nail. File that piece of iron, and gather the iron powder that comes out of it, this is the iron filings. Each is like a tiny magnet, and they arrange in lines.

PS These white patches on that disk, these are pieces of mounting tape. Get some mounting tape, like that one from harbor freight http://www.harborfreight.com/8-1-2-half-ft-x-3-4-quarter-inch-double-sided-tape-45882.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/8-1-2-half-ft-x-3-4-quarter-inch-double-sided-tape-45882.html) . This is a thick, double sided adhesive tape. You can put all kind of things together with it, and it holds them together very strongly. You can take these pieces of mounting tape off, and put on again. It is like used instead of a glue, but it's better than glue in that it's easier to use, doesn't make everything dirty like a glue does, and it can be easily removed from just everything. But most importantly, it enables arrangements that can be adjusted, and can be easily changed. This is especially important for experiments.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MagnaProp on September 26, 2015, 10:26:48 PM
Thanks. I'll give that and the double sided tape a try.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: ayeaye on October 05, 2015, 12:21:03 PM
Thanks. I'll give that and the double sided tape a try.

If you fail with something, please say too. This is important too, maybe equally important as success. The others know then what not to do, and don't waste their time.

I said i go to electronics, but i practically failed. Some people say things like, induced energy is not the energy that induced it. They are absolutely irresponsible, they don't understand induction at all. This is why i had to understand the theory of induction, It is interaction between electrons and dipoles, not dissimilar to the interaction between dipoles in magnets. As there is some evidence of overunity in magnets, then there should also be some in induction. But not in every kind of induction, in the ordinary coils and transformers there likely is none.

So now, if i will continue the research, i had to go to the pancake coils. Which is weird in that, i may even not need all the knowledge in electronics and oscilloscope, for that. I may do with a capacitor, resistor, and multimeter. Maybe i still need though.

There are some claims of overunity with pancake coils, using induction ovens. Simply they put a pancake coil on the induction oven, and claim that they get more energy out, than they put in. There are some other claims that pancake coils with some frequency have a rotating magnetic field.

I have my own idea what it may be caused by. I suspect pancake coils may in a way work like the faraday's homopolar generator, or n-machine. Inducing some dc current which has no lenz effect. So they may amplify current. There is though a lot to understand, what exactly happens there.

MagnaProp, or in fact anyone else. If you don't succeed in what you try, please replicate my field lines chain experiment with magnets. This experiment is very important for theoretical reasons, not obly about overunity in magnets, but it gives reason to say that there may also be overunity in induction, flowing liquids, maybe even in electrolysis, everywhere where there are atoms. It is about researching the same thing, atoms, which act like dipoles in magnetic interaction.

Replicating an experiment is very important. This is as important as doing your own experiment, and often helps to develop things further. All what matters in the research like this, is replicating the experiments. Because there is no way to prove by video or by any other means, that there is no fake. Only replicating the experiment b several people, confirms the results. Because it is not likely that many people fake. And even if many people fake, then this makes it easy to reveal what the fake is about, because they don't do the things exactly the same way.

It is very weird, my magnets experiments gives evidence of overunity, yet it is not replicated by anyone. You believe me, and thank you for that, but believing in me is not the way to prove. I know it's dull to replicate another experiment, but one should understand the importance of replicating.

Some of you are good people, i know, it makes my heart to melt to see how much you try. Only to do the research the right way, and we get results.

I failed in my induction experiment, but i paved a way to others, so that they will not have the lack of knowledge i had.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: MagnaProp on October 05, 2015, 11:08:54 PM
If you fail with something, please say too. This is important too, maybe equally important as success...
I agree. I think it's more important than success. It gives a clue as to what not to do which can be easily dismissed if all we are interested in is the successes. I was also looking at adding some electricity with alnico permanent magnets. Give them enough juice and the poles switch. So I was thinking fewer alnico magnets could do more work since the electrical switch time is brief and the on time of repulsion or attraction that we need is all for free since they are permanent magnets. I show 4 magnets here but I don't see why it couldn't be done with just one for even less power consumption. I guess they would have to be switched twice briefly which doesn't sound good. If we can add power to cencel them out briefly, that might be better.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on December 29, 2015, 12:47:32 AM
Just 2 ideas,  I had to post.

[  IDEA NUMBER 1 :   This idea is too far-fetched,   but I am posting it anyway .
         Some of you will remember,  how in this thread, we tried to find the explanation of why a Faraday-Motor just powered by permanent-magnets,  will not work   .
       For me,  the explanation is that the interaction between 2 permanent-magnets contain no toothed-wheels,  whereas,  the interaction between a magnet and the field of an electrical conductor, just might. 
         The electrical-conductor may be toothed-wheel-1,  and it may induce( via induction ) some sort of toothed-wheel-2  in the magnet in the Faraday-motor  )
      So,  I designed the magnet-motor below : -
     - 'New type of magnet motor'
          The new principle for this magnet motor is applied to both the
rotating-magnet ,  and also to the stator-magnet/magnets of
this motor .
      The aim of this idea is to copy what happens in flowing currents
of water when their is an object ( pebble ) obstructing their path,
the pebble will cause either of two effects :
      -  the water will deflect of the pebble in a spray
      -  or,  the water may pulsate( take different paths around the
pebble)  of, and,  around,  the pebble,  in regular, or randomly timed
pulses .
       To achieve/copy this effect with magnets,  you could make
composite magnets,  where small-magnets( or other materials ) are inserted into the surface
of a larger-magnet,  to create  'pebbles'.
        THEN,  the magnetic spray ( or pulsing ) would provide the necessary
traction between the rotating-magnet ,  and the stator-magnet/magnets of this motor ,   because,   the  rotating-magnet ,  and the stator-magnet/magnets of this motor,  will be facing in opposite directions .
------------     ]

  [    IDEA NUMBER 2 :  IN THE DIAGRAM BELOW,   I modified my magnet-motor which I first presented in    http://overunity.com/15860/can-anyone-identify-this-mystery-magnet-motor-or-provide-any-information/msg454842/#msg454842     ]

   
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on December 30, 2015, 05:25:11 PM
I have to post this idea, 

   It is based on the idea that a one-half of a bent cyclidner-magnet,  can propel a another cylinder-magnet .

      [   BUT,  THE ROTATING-CYLINDER-MAGNET IN MY DESIGN,  HAS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TYPE OF MAGNETIC-POLARITY,   CHECK THE 2 DIAGRAMS BELOW ]

      The magnets labelled 'B',  are arranged as stators,  and magnet labelled 'A' is the rotating magnet.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on January 13, 2016, 03:10:07 AM
       It would be great,  if anyone could do the necessary modifications to the diagrams of the last two magnet-motors I have posted on this thread,  it's pretty obvious what the necessary modifications are in order to perfect them,  as much as possible .

      Anyway,  I just want to type that I have always thought that it should be very simple to drain-off unwanted eddy-currents in magnet-motors,  and have wondered why eddy-currents are always mentioned as obstacles in magnet-motor designs (  I haven't queried this, since I have no experience in this field )
       -    But, the other day I read, about how simply  unwanted eddy-currents were being drained off from audio-headphone designs,  to enable them to function correctly .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on January 13, 2016, 08:10:46 PM
Magnet-Motor-1
  Below, the diagram of magnet-motor-1,  is probably self-explanatory .
-------------
Magnet-Motor-2
   And, the next diagram is magnet-motor-2
   It is based on the idea that a one-half of a bent cyclidner-magnet,  can propel another cylinder-magnet to move forward.

      [   BUT,  THE ROTATING-CYLINDER-MAGNET IN MY DESIGN,  HAS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TYPE OF MAGNETIC-POLARITY,   CHECK THE 2 DIAGRAMS BELOW ]

      The magnets labelled 'B',  are arranged as stators,  and magnet labelled 'A' is the magnet which is propelled forward .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on January 18, 2016, 04:13:40 PM
I wonder if it would be possible to replace the permanent-magnets in an   magnet-motor
( overunity design ),  with electrostatic-charges,  positive,  and negative
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 05, 2016, 11:16:55 PM
(  In my previous post on this page,  « Reply #166 on: January 18, 2016, 04:13:40 PM »,  I didn't realize that electrostatic motors already exist  )

   The question I can't find an answer to is,  do  permanent-magnets( bar magnets ) actually have an 'Electric-Field' which is 90-degrees offset from their N-S axis. 
   (   It seems to have originated along time ago by an academic who claimed to have achieved electrolysis just by using  permanent-magnets,  the origin of the term  magnetrolysis .  )
   
   Obviously, a permanent-magnet  seems to have no effect on  tiny bits of paper or plastic, maybe someone should try with tiny fibres.  (  but is the electric-field of electrostatic electricity,  and the electric-field of the other electricity, identical )

   Apparently, if you freeze an electrical conductor in water( while conducting ),  the field lines of  just  the  'electric-field'  appear and remain visible in the ice .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 06, 2016, 06:57:34 PM
I have always wondered why no one ever makes  permanent-magnet-motors,  by copying the wheels-with-scoops-propelled-by-water  that are used in hydro-electric-plants,  the Pelton-Wheel ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel ),  I would copy and post an image, but I don't understand copyright rules .

(  The difference between a waterfall,  and a magnetic-field,  being that a  magnetic-field has a limited range,   although,   I assume they use a narrow high pressure stream of water  )

Now,  look at the diagram I have posted below  'Hollow Dome.JPG',  the magnetic-field  emanating from the hollow section,  should be close to being flat,  so,  that should minimize the chances of getting caught in a merge-point,  from that part of the dome anyway .
---------------------------

Different subject

Magnet-Motor-1
I have made a correction to  magnet-motor-1,  to minimize the effect of the only merge-point in this motor,  that being the last magnet on the wheel to try and detach away from the strongest part of the stator .
     The  blue-arrow,  shows how thick, the thickest part of the stator should be,  and the rest is crossed out .

Magnet-Motor-2
In the Side-View diagram,  posted below,  I have added a large  blue arrow  showing the direction of travel,  of the Moving-Magnet labelled 'A' .
  Also, you can see I arranged the stacks/rows of  Stator-Magnets labelled 'B',  especially so that at any one moment in time,  Moving-Magnet labelled 'A'  is only affected by one potential merge-point, which would be cancelled out by the effect of 2 other stator-magnets acting upon  Moving-Magnet labelled 'A' .
---------------------------
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 08, 2016, 05:14:39 PM
Quote from my post in another thread,  below :
  http://overunity.com/16295/all-permanent-magnet-complete-levitation/msg473463/#msg473463

   
Quote
When I look at my diagram of the Magnetic-Sled( LARGE-FLAT-MAGNET FLOATING ON ARRAY.JPG,  posted on this thread ), gliding over arrays of tiny magnets spaced apart from each other,  I start to wonder if that, or a different version,   could function as a  magnet-motor,  especially if it was arranged in a suitable circle.



   I have just realized that my  'magnet-motor-2'  ( my previous post shows the direction of movement ),     that the design of the  'individual stators'  in that  magnet-motor,     could be used to make the Magnetic-Sled mentioned above, gliding over arrays of tiny magnets spaced apart from each other,  to see if it could function as a magnet-motor,  like a reversal of magnet-motor-2
 ( http://overunity.com/15774/permanent-magnet-motor/msg473357/#msg473357 )
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 09, 2016, 04:54:30 PM
Below is the diagram of  MAGNET-MOTOR-3,  the sled is modified to make a horseshoe-magnets,  the horseshoe-magnet  levitates  above the array of small-magnets,  and based on the effect of MAGNET-MOTOR-2  is propelled along .

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Nink on February 11, 2016, 02:59:11 AM
This one is very cool.  It uses solar cells to generate electricity to propel a diamagnetic train.  Not sure how many watts are required to keep it moving.  Wonder if some type of energy harvester could be used instead.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tFsrGRwOOM

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: SoManyWires on February 11, 2016, 04:08:14 AM
This one is very cool.  It uses solar cells to generate electricity to propel a diamagnetic train.  Not sure how many watts are required to keep it moving.  Wonder if some type of energy harvester could be used instead.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tFsrGRwOOM
Uploaded on Jun 8, 2006
Explanation: this is a museum model to demo how a magnetic levitation train works. It takes advantage of four design elements:
(1) an inhomogeneous magnetic field that repels a diamagnetic plate so that it floats about 1 mm above the track,
(2) the shape and size of the diamagnetic plate is optimized in a way so that, with the specific permanent magnet in use, the train is guided even at bends along the track without touching the surface,
(3) a linear motor using a sensor coil and two drive coils to move the train model forward,
(4) solar panels which convert solar energy into electrical energy.

The track consists of three rows of neodymium platelets which are aligned in a way so that the two outer rows are inversely polarized to the middle row on which the train model moves. As a diamagnetic material a thin layer of pyrolytic graphite is used. Pyrolytic graphite is a material which is neither ferromagnetic nor paramagnetic so that the repulsive properties of diamagnetism become effective. The linear motor senses the slight disturbances in the magnetic field between the neodymium platelets of the track thanks to the sensor coil. It switches between the two drive coils to that the model train can move along. The little electricity which is needed for the linear motor to operate comes from the solar panels on top of the model train.



interesting use of low input power there.
sensors and relay switches, low power. wonder how much would be needed for a 500pound or even 50 pound weight, less even.

looks like artwork for a table centerpiece.

make a interesting train set if you could create one with loops and maybe even track changers!
it would sell well to someone into model train sets, from the future!
or just make one to not have a typical train set.

who knows, you might have industrial uses for the floating system.
get it to cycle and it could perhaps store up some energy with coils and magnets to be useful.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 11, 2016, 04:50:05 AM
Magnet-Motor-3

The diagram below,  includes a  top-view, in order to show the arrangement of the stator-magnets of Magnet-Motor-3  .

(  The stator-magnets are arranged in a particular pattern, so that at any one time, the merge-points in one row, will be offset by the lack of merge-points in the other 2 rows.  The same pattern,  that was used in my motor-magnet-2  )
------------------------------

  Regarding   All-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation,  and,  Solid-State-Free-Energy-Generators

  If  Solid-State-Free-Energy-Generators don't  function successfully( don't achieve overunity ),  maybe they should include  an  All-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation  component,  to provide the initial oscillation that is amplified in the coils etc.
     The     All-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation  component  that should be chosen,  should be as unstable as possible( even though the levitating magnet never touches any other object ),   but the more stable  All-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation  designs may vibrate at a higher frequency .

    My less-stable All-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation designs
    http://overunity.com/16295/all-permanent-magnet-complete-levitation/msg469597/#msg469597
   
    My stable All-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation designs
    http://overunity.com/16298/my-levitators-and-bearings-and-other-designsinventions/msg469748/#msg469748

    Or, to increase the frequency obtained from  All-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation  even further,  any of my  All-Permanent-Magnet-Full-Levitation designs  above,  could  easily be modified,  so that the levitating  permanent-magnet,   is pressed in between,  2 devices that make it levitate away from each other.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Nink on February 12, 2016, 05:22:43 AM
So now I am faced with the problem how do I make the levitating permanent magnet in bismuth spin without touching it.  If you throw a voltage across the magnet it will spin Homopolar motor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De6VdKA3IH4 but how do I induce a spin without actually touching it and need to be able to do this from inside a vacuum, so I need to generate the current in the vacuum (Solar, crystal battery etc) or outside and use induction. 

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 12, 2016, 09:37:57 PM
To cause rotation in a vacuum

A difficult way.  This version  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichols_radiometer  of a  radiometer,   works in much higher vacuums  than used by other radiometers,  because it functions via a different method.   I think it works directly of the effect of photons striking a surface,   but since it does not contain a  Fully-Levitating  component,  it does not rotate. 
But you could use the principle by which it works.
 
Maybe you could use pulses from a strong electromagnet, or just by rapidly moving a strong permanent-magnet near it.

Or, use an  electrostatic-charge,  attach some very-very-thin plastic or fibers to the levitating magnet,  and use something with a  strong  electrostatic-charge to move it.
(  an electrostatic-charge can work through plastic or glass containers, which are filled with things affected by an  electrostatic-charge,  like thin fibers,  although I'm not sure if it works through both plastic and glass  )

There would probably be lots of other ways .

(  It's strange that your laser idea won't work in a vacuum, although that is the same reason a  non Nichols-radiometer,  won't spin in a high enough vacuum.
    But,  lasers  emit  electro-magnetic  radiation,  and you are pointing your laser at a magnet, so you'd think it might be able to make it spin  )

I think the reason you want to do this, is to see how long it would spin for ,  but it would be affected by all sorts of things.  There are constant micro-tremors from the earth,  and various other things .   
   
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Nink on February 13, 2016, 02:13:40 AM
Thanks I think the electrostatic propulsion idea is interesting.  I tried a coil and 9v around the Bismuth with no effect.  Laser doesn't work through the glass jar I am using for my vacuum chamber. If I take a magnet and drag it beside the jar it rotates but I can't get it to spin...  Maybe try a plastic solenoid and try and flick magnet corner.  I do think it should spin longer in a vacuum but I am not sure how much.  The magnetic poles I guess could be adding drag, I am  not sure if the diamagnets are stopping the spin as well.   I guess I could try and shield from the poles with MU metal or something around the jar.   
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 14, 2016, 03:53:32 AM
Below is  magnet-motor-3.2 ,   and  magnet-motor-3.4 .

So with these two updated designs,  there is no longer a need for the slightly difficult pattern of  stator-magnets arrangement,  because now there are three  moving-magnets  attached together,  to form one moving-component.   
   The intended effect of attaching together 2 or 3   moving-magnets is so that  merge-points encountered by one moving-magnet  will be offset by the lack of merge-points encountered by the other  moving-magnets .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 17, 2016, 03:56:57 AM
From my previous post,  I'm not sure if  magnet-motor-3-4  would function, but it's an interesting design,  not only for reasons as to why it would not,  or would function,  but also as to what sort of levitation effect it would have .

   Below, I have re-drawn  magnet-motor-3-2  to use more conventional  shapes,  and that is called   magnet-motor-3-2-5

  (  not that I think any  magnet-motor  would actually function )

 
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: forumblog on February 17, 2016, 06:47:16 PM
  I'm   guest1289,  this is my other account,   for other things I'm doing  .

  Could the stators in  magnet-motor-3.2  that I just posted,  be replaced with simple metal-plates,  thereby making this a viable engine for railways .

  (  Also,  could someone design a  magnet-motor using a row of  donut-magnets,  exploiting the well-known neutral-zone  in the donut-magnet,  I can't think of any way  )
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 18, 2016, 02:47:35 AM
  I'm   guest1289,  this is my other account,   for other things I'm doing  .

  Could the stators in  magnet-motor-3.2  that I just posted,  be replaced with simple metal-plates,  thereby making this a viable engine for railways .

  (  Also,  could someone design a  magnet-motor using a row of  donut-magnets,  exploiting the well-known neutral-zone  in the donut-magnet,  I can't think of any way  )

Why are you using 2 different accounts on here?  Do you not know that this is against the Terms Of Service that you agreed to when you signed up for this site?

I suggest that you eliminate one of these accounts before the Admin eliminates both of them.

Thank you.

Bill
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: forumblog on February 19, 2016, 06:24:57 PM
   I definitely did not know there's an actual rule( terms of service ),  stating that you cannot have more than one account.  I did wonder though .

   I do have a very valid reason for having to use 2 accounts,  I won't detail it on the forum,   but there must never be exception to rules,  or the site won't work  etc .

   The mistake I made is that I actually stated that I am guest1289,  but again,  I didn't know it's against the rules .

   There are probably a lot of people on here that have 2 accounts,  for all sorts of reasons,  but of course they don't state that they have 2 accounts,  so it won't be a problem for them .

   It will affect me,  no longer being able to use 2 accounts( and stating on my posts that I am the same person as another account ),  but obviously I will no longer be able to do that .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 20, 2016, 01:00:03 AM
Magnet-Motor-1-1
 Below, is the new diagram for this motor,  and the area labelled   'effect-point' shows how I'm trying to re-design the only merge-point  in this motor. Basically, I'm trying to induce some more  magnetic-attraction-strength into the weak/thin  side/end of the merge-point  by using  the strong/wider  side/end of the merge-point.

    My drawing skills have again failed, because I have not fully drawn what I wanted to draw.  This needs an artist .

  (  In the diagram,
      -  At the  'effect-point',  more of the weak/thin  side/end of the merge-point  needs have more of the strong/wider  side/end of the merge-point closer to it.
      -  The stator needs to more accurately get wider and wider.    )

  So, for this particular design, I think the stator would not be magnetic, it would just be metallic .

   The options for this type motor are infinite.
   ( I thought I had invented this motor 1 year ago, I can't go into more detail here.  However, some months after I invented it, without having drawn it, or discussed it with anyone, I saw a diagram on the internet which resembled my idea, but I did not check if the component that resembled my idea was actually a stator, and I did not read any details about it, I don't know if it contained a written description.  I have not been able to find that diagram since.  But last night, I found another magnet-motor pre-dating my motor,  which although does not work in the same way, it does contain a similar component.
-----

  My-Fly-Wheel-Device
  Have a flywheel using a passive-magnetic-bearing instead of an axle, and house it in a vacuum,  use the minimum electricity possible to first get the flywheel moving from a non-moving status, and then speed it up to a suitable speed,  then,  using a totally-frictionless  electricity-generator design incorporated into the device, generate-electricity,  and use it to keep the fly-wheel spinning.
   Keek in mind the flywheel would only be started up from it 'non-moving' status once, in the lifetime of the device.
   The electricity-generator design could just be magnets moving past a perfectly-smooth single electrical-cable loop,  and if needed, there could be much smaller cables to drain of any eddy-currents. ( of course this electricity-generator design would generate much less that other designs )

   
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 27, 2016, 09:48:42 PM
I wonder if the secret to making a  magnet-motor or other looping devices function successfully,   would be to provide them with an  elliptical ( or oval ) orbit,  like planets( and electrons ? ) .

That is how a  single-self-looping-SMOT  should function,  maybe there is too much friction for it to succeed,  maybe one of my  magnetic-levitation  designs could be used or modified,  such as the 'Magnetic-Sled'  or  'levitating-ball' on the post below :
LARGE-FLAT-MAGNET FLOATING ON ARRAY.JPG
  and,   'BALL FLOATING INSIDE OF HALF-BALL MADE OF POLYGON SHAPED MAGNETS.JPG' on the following post :
http://overunity.com/16295/all-permanent-magnet-complete-levitation/msg469597/#msg469597
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 28, 2016, 08:30:07 PM
I wonder if the secret to making a  magnet-motor or other looping devices function successfully,   would be to provide them with an  elliptical ( or oval ) orbit,  like planets( and electrons ? ) .

That is how a  single-self-looping-SMOT  should function,  maybe there is too much friction for it to succeed,  maybe one of my  magnetic-levitation  designs could be used or modified,  such as the 'Magnetic-Sled'  or  'levitating-ball' on the post below :
LARGE-FLAT-MAGNET FLOATING ON ARRAY.JPG
  and,   'BALL FLOATING INSIDE OF HALF-BALL MADE OF POLYGON SHAPED MAGNETS.JPG' on the following post :
http://overunity.com/16295/all-permanent-magnet-complete-levitation/msg469597/#msg469597

    I forgot to include my  Magnet-Gravity-Motor in my last post,  even though it has a normal circular orbit unlike the  elliptical( oval ) orbits I mentioned .
     It would either stand vertically,  as in the diagram below, or it would function at an angle between  0 - 90-degrees. 
      All sorts of different versions could be designed,   it could for example contain 2 separate rows of stators like a SMOT, which I think could make it easier for the  rotating magnet( or, a rotating non-magnet ) to exit from the  thickest( strongest ) part of the stator .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: seychelles on February 29, 2016, 08:22:03 AM
guest 1289 your invention is brilliant pity i am broke at the moment but maybe not for long .
i will be looking forward to replicate it.. thanks for sharing..
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on February 29, 2016, 10:57:53 PM
I'm more interested in my other  magnet-motors,  mostly the numerous ones I posted on the following webpage :
http://overunity.com/15774/permanent-magnet-motor/165/
 and one on this webpage,  since they don't require gravity.

Below is  magnet-motor-3.5,  note that either the moving-component,  or,  the stators, could be non-magnets, or magnets, only one would need to be magnets.
  The reason 3 moving-components are joined to each other,  is to overcome the merge-points encountered in the stators,  since at any one time each moving component is at a different position above the merge-points in the stators.
    Another way to achieve this is by using multiple rows of offset stators,  as in :
   http://overunity.com/15774/permanent-magnet-motor/msg473788/#msg473788

    I was told that  magnet-motors  generate and accumulate eddy-currents( which slow or stop the motor ),  I don't know why it would not be possible to attach wiring( or metallic-mesh materials ) to transfer that electric-current away from the areas on the motor,  that's done in some electronic-devices .
    I assume every single  magnet-motor  I have designed could be affected by  eddy-currents  that it would generate, but it's something I know nothing about.
     
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on March 01, 2016, 02:48:52 PM
In the following post, 
http://overunity.com/16295/all-permanent-magnet-complete-levitation/msg475693/#msg475693
sm0ky2  typed :
Quote
that townsend-brown guy did this 50 yrs or so ago, after he started making things electrostatically levitate.

the force can be arranged to repel, propel, attract, or detract motion between the source and the opposing charge,
whether it be on the object being moved or not.

in this manner, it is much like magnetism

   So many or most things that can be done with a magnet,  can be done with electrostatics.
     
   (  I still don't fully understand why electrostatic-motors actually do rotate successfully, I have reasons to believe why they should not function,  but I'll check the wikipedia-page and it's links   )

    So,  is it possible that by replacing a magnet with an electrostatically-charged-object  that you could achieve having  the  long sought   MONOPOLE   that  magnet-motor  makers have always claimed would make a  magnet-motor  possible,   although it would be an electrostatic-motor .

   I'm guessing that if the  'moving-electrostatically-charged-components'  in an   electrostatic-motor  could be  'prevented'  from discharging some of their charge to the  stators,  then the motor could run perpetually ( even though,  doing that to all  known  'electrostatic-motor'  designs would probably stop them functioning  ).
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 02, 2016, 09:34:36 PM
Anyone to try to build/check this one .
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 02, 2016, 09:35:32 PM
Changing direction of magnetic field lines through high permeability metal shield.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 02, 2016, 09:37:00 PM
Sorry this is the correct configuration
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 02, 2016, 09:49:57 PM
   So many or most things that can be done with a magnet,  can be done with electrostatics.
     
   (  I still don't fully understand why electrostatic-motors actually do rotate successfully, I have reasons to believe why they should not function,  but I'll check the wikipedia-page and it's links   )


the electrostatic motor operates through commutation, in much the same way a DC motor works.
charge on one plate is attracted to the opposite charge, then switches charges, and is attracted to the other side

we current use electricity to make magnets do this.
there is not yet an existing technology to commutate a magnetic interface, directly.
(at least not that I have seen)
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on March 03, 2016, 12:46:57 AM
stoyan_
I make a lot of  magnet-motor  designs,  but I am certainly no expert.

I assume the  2-joined-moving-magnets   are intended to  rotate in the  middle of the ring-stator-magnets
(  Or,  are the  2-joined-moving-magnets  intended to travel ( be propelled )  to the right-hand-side, or left-hand-side of the page,  or,    through the   ring-stator-magnets  )

Magnet-motors  always need a reason to move in a certain direction,  such as getting closer to another magnet. 
Your metal-shielding does create an imbalance,  but it should have no reason to rotate.
But,   the  2-joined-moving-magnets  could  have a reason to move to the   right-hand-side  or  left-hand-side  of the page,  because of the  metal-shielding.
 
Using ring-stators,   I wanted to design a  magnet-motor that takes advantage of the neutral zones of the ring-magnets,  to create propulsion.   
It would be pushed by the magnetic-field of the  ring-magnet,  while at the same time encountering no resistance in the neutral zone.     I think it would require  very-specifically-designed  ring-magnets that have much longer  neutral-zones,  or maybe even the addition of small extra stator-magnets.  (  and I guess the moving-magnet-component would resemble  a sleek-jet-airplane,   UNLESS,  I use your idea of  magnetic-shielding,  in which case it could look like anything )
(  The  magnet-motor  would resemble the particle-acccelerators like at CERN ,  but only in a very simple visual way )
The only advantage of a  ring-stator-magnet-motor  I can see,   is that the  moving-magnet-component  would hopefully be completely-levitated,  so that it should travel much much faster,   but the fastest speeds would only be possible in a straight line.
(  In my magnet-motor  designs,  I have used the  brick-wall-pattern( not identical to brick-walls ) for positioning the  stators,   or, by  joining  mulltiple-moving-magnet-components together,    to try and defeat the merge-points in the stators,   maybe that would be another idea for a  ring-stator-magnet-motor  )
 
sm0ky2
Quote
the electrostatic motor operates through commutation, in much the same way a DC motor works.
charge on one plate is attracted to the opposite charge, then switches charges, and is attracted to the other side

we current use electricity to make magnets do this.
there is not yet an existing technology to commutate a magnetic interface, directly.
(at least not that I have seen)

It's possible I described a method  "to commutate a magnetic interface, directly",  in my following post :
http://overunity.com/14311/work-from-2-magnets-19-output-2/msg473568/#msg473568

Quote
It could be designed as a circular motor,   which just has 1 stator-magnet,  attracting magnets on the wheel .
      So, the single stator-magnet,  could have an axle running through it,  so that it could turn like a propellor,  and then using the  momentum  of the wheel moving( from attraction ),  that momentum of the wheel could be used to turn the  single stator-magnet 90-degrees,  each time a magnet on the wheel spins past .
(  you can figure the rest out )

   But now I just remembered that my  electric-motors  that I filed at the patent-registry,  don't need or use commutators.  I don't know if these electric-motor designs are worth anything,  and I'm sure I also lost  these designs due to  'circumstances' .
    In the diagram below,  is a  Disc-Magnet,  and the elctromagnetic-field from the conducting-wire close to the surface of the Disc-Magnet causes it to rotate.  (  In an actual-motor the entire surface of the Disc-Magnet would be covered by conducting-wires  )
   I got the idea by thinking of a solution to the problem posed on the following post
   http://overunity.com/15978/new-reactionless-motor-from-india/msg459408/#msg459408
   it involves   N-theory  vs  M-hypothesis,  and making a fully-rotating version of the  m-device  in the diagram in that post .

   You can download what I filed at the patent-registry,  from the link below
  https://sites.google.com/site/johnbackerinventionsanddesigns/john-backer---inventions-and-designs
    (  it's easy to download if you have chrome browser )
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 03, 2016, 10:20:11 AM
Sorry another correction. think it is final. BR.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 03, 2016, 10:27:46 AM
For me it immitates circular magnetic field inserted in straight magnetic field lines.
Just like Lorenz force:

http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/Lorentz/Lorentzforce.html
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 03, 2016, 10:28:42 AM
not 100% sure though
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 03, 2016, 10:56:58 AM
Имитира сила на Лоренц в при проводник в магнитно поле.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on March 03, 2016, 07:48:24 PM
stoyan_
I can see the  'effect'  you are trying to replicate,  but why are you using  ring-stator-magnets,  why not  normal-bar-magnets with square ends.
(  Or,  maybe  use round-flat-disk-magnets instead  )
   Are you hoping to use the  hollow area in  the ring-stator-magnets  to create an effect of stronger  propulsion .

 It is possible that the  'effect'  you are trying to replicate,  is the same reason why I assume the  Farday-Electric-Motor  cannot be made to function by just using permanent-magnets,  although I have never tried because  I don't have the magnets,  but I assume it has already been tried.

   The diagrams below

Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 03, 2016, 11:14:05 PM
I guess its all about someone to build it and test it.

circular magnetic field between north and south pole.


cheers
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on March 04, 2016, 12:56:49 AM
The webpage you posted, showing the theory,  does make some logical sense.

That webpage shows the surface of a superconductor under an electron-microscope, showing some evidence of the theory.
The theory says that the lines of the magnetic-field  are like tubes,  vortex-tubes, I think.
(  But  superconductors have very different characteristics to normal permanent-magnets  )

IF THE THEORY IS CORRECT,  then it would provide the necessary traction, or gear-wheels,  to build a  magnet-motor,  and it would be the simplest design.

This was tried in this thread,  and very amateur prototypes were built,  they posted some photos,  from the post below :
http://overunity.com/15774/permanent-magnet-motor/msg460716/#msg460716
to the following post :
http://overunity.com/15774/permanent-magnet-motor/msg461529/#msg461529

  But I don't think it was tried very professionally, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE THEORY YOU HAVE POSTED,  the attempts at simple prototypes were of very very poor quality,  but they did try though.
---------

   (  I also wonder what you can see,  in the  magnetic-field-viewers  that people buy,  but I assume what they see is the variation in the intensities of the fields,  because the resolution of those  magnetic-field-viewers  would be very very low,  that is obviously big understatement  )

---------
   I have some magnets shaped like watch-batteries( or buttons ), but slightly larger than watch-batteries.

   I just built the only prototype I could,   VERSION-1, in the 2 diagrams below. 
     I could only build it very amateurishly,  it did rotate, when I moved it toward the stators,  but it is very in-accurately built, not sufficiently symmetrical.
     I think the main reason I got some rotation is because I moved it towards the stators while at the same time the axle was not perfectly in the middle of the  magnetic-wheel-magnet( magnet shaped like watch-batteries or buttons ).

    So I don't really know about the results I got from building VERSION-1.
    (  And the magnet needed to build  VERSION-2, in the diagrams below,  is not sold anywhere )

    Yes,  these two versions would have to be built,  and tested, very professionally .


Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 04, 2016, 06:37:52 AM
lets stick to the picture attached from me initially with the shielded rotor magnet between N and S.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 04, 2016, 06:45:55 AM
There is also another version. Perhaps easier to build.
Sorry for ugly drawing :)
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 04, 2016, 06:51:16 AM
Lorenz force
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 04, 2016, 03:47:24 PM
Another easier version

The shielded magnet is the stator, the disk is rotating.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: guest1289 on March 05, 2016, 10:01:27 PM
stoyan_
    When you clarified the idea you are posting,   I realized that I included the same idea you are posting,  this  magnet-motor,   in something I filed at the patent-registry in the  middle of  2015 .
   (  Obviously it's not patented,  and  patent-registries  these days do not permit overunity devices.  But,  I think the way to try and get around that rule,  is to file them as toys  )
   My  magnet-motor  uses  2-ring-magnets on top of each other,  but with space in between,  and in between is  a rotating component which is shaped  like an aircraft-wing( or a triangle ) in order to gain lift in that particular magnetic-field,  which should result in propulsion.

   However, the shape of your moving-magnet  is a symmetrical-square/rectangle,  which is different to mine.
   
   The diagrams of that  magnet-motor  design are below .
   (  that document was all very poorly hand-drawn )

   After the pictures,   I have  Attached a  'Word-Document'  containing the description of that  magnet-motor  from mid-2015
----------
  If  my design from mid-2015,  does not work,  it could actually be evidence that  the magnetic-field  between 2 magnets( or just from 1 magnet ) is not composed of small-particles. 
----------

  Your diagram on post       http://overunity.com/15774/permanent-magnet-motor/msg476202/#msg476202   is actually the best diagram you have provided,  and all the different  magnetic-orientations  possible,  of the  moving-magnet( mine, and  stoyan's )  should be tried to see if any one functions.
Title: Re: Permanent magnet motor
Post by: stoyan_ on March 05, 2016, 10:45:51 PM
Thanks for reply.
That,s my latest proposal. Easier to build, compared to my previous proposals

Now the ring is rotating and the rectangular shielded magnet is the stator.

I suggest using neodimium magnets.

BR.