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Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 78951 times)

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2015, 04:07:27 PM »
The problem is not the shape, but the fact that it's a field passing through another object or a combined secondary field.
This leaves an open merge point where another field is attracted into the object.
There are no merge points in the field around a conductor, (essentially no attraction to an outside field)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2015, 04:07:27 PM »

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2015, 05:16:13 AM »
I'm not sure why this could not be possible, but why not re-magnetize some small cylinder magnets by placing a strong current through them so they would produce a field like a conductor.

If the domains could remain in that condition then it might possibly produce the same field as a conductor with current, only without any current!
A stack of these magnets would then rotate correctly as in a Faraday motor.

This will be my next test after the one in process, unless someone knows why this is impossible to achieve.

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2015, 05:32:14 PM »
To re-magnetize a small cylinder magnet to the polarity of a conductor with current, maybe a process similar to this.
1: Apply low voltage high current AC down the length of the cylinder magnet until the Curie temperature is reached and the AC has erased all previous magnetism.
2: Apply low voltage high current DC and simultaneously cool in water.
 
If everything works as planned and the domains are correctly magnetized, the circular field would be maintained without current.
If this was possible, we would probably already have free energy magnetic motors.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2015, 05:32:14 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2015, 11:50:01 PM »
It seems the best way to demagnetize a neodymium magnet is to stick it to a piece of silicon steel and warm with a torch until it falls off.
One dead magnet!
Still no luck trying to magnetize them like a conductor but there are a few things to try yet before I move on.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2015, 03:18:44 AM »
It seems the best way to demagnetize a neodymium magnet is to stick it to a piece of silicon steel and warm with a torch until it falls off.
One dead magnet!
Still no luck trying to magnetize them like a conductor but there are a few things to try yet before I move on.
You have to overcome their coercive force with a big enough field.  The field doesn't have to persist for long.  Capacitor discharge is the most common method used.  The size of the capacitor depends on how low you can get the inductance.  The only caution is that you should use a pulse rated capacitor, and the whole thing should be put behind an explosion proof barrier.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2015, 03:18:44 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2015, 04:45:02 PM »
Reaching the coercive force does appear to be a problem. I originally demagnetized it so I would be able to see any indication of the new magnetization direction but there is no noticeable new field.

Usually a coil can be wound to provide the magnetizing field by a capacitor bank discharge, but to generate a field in such a way as to magnetize a cylinder with a field like a conductor makes it difficult to reach the coercive force.

The idea is to achieve a circular field like a segment of a conductor with a current flowing through it, in a cylinder magnet.
Just pumping a current through the magnet is either not generating a field inside the magnet, or is no where near the coercive force required to retain the field.

I thought a bit about winding a coil to achieve the correct field and I'm not sure it's possible. (toroidal maybe)

Still looking for some clues.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2015, 09:17:48 PM »
Reaching the coercive force does appear to be a problem. I originally demagnetized it so I would be able to see any indication of the new magnetization direction but there is no noticeable new field.

Usually a coil can be wound to provide the magnetizing field by a capacitor bank discharge, but to generate a field in such a way as to magnetize a cylinder with a field like a conductor makes it difficult to reach the coercive force.

The idea is to achieve a circular field like a segment of a conductor with a current flowing through it, in a cylinder magnet.
Just pumping a current through the magnet is either not generating a field inside the magnet, or is no where near the coercive force required to retain the field.

I thought a bit about winding a coil to achieve the correct field and I'm not sure it's possible. (toroidal maybe)

Still looking for some clues.
If you want the field to look the same as if a current runs down the central axis, then running a magnetizing current through the central axis is what you need to do.  You might be able to make it work by placing the magnet inside a copper tube just barely larger than the magnet and then pulsing the tube length-wise.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2015, 09:17:48 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2015, 11:10:36 PM »
If you want the field to look the same as if a current runs down the central axis, then running a magnetizing current through the central axis is what you need to do.  You might be able to make it work by placing the magnet inside a copper tube just barely larger than the magnet and then pulsing the tube length-wise.
I tried current directly through the magnet and the magnet inside a copper tube, but nothing.
I used a 51,000 MFD capacitor charged to 30V and direct discharge with less than 2" leads. Crack!
But still nothing.
I have two of those capacitors and they are rated 40V but I have no way to know how close that gets to the required coercive force to retain the field.
Probably will keep increasing the power until something changes unless there is a way to calculate the requirement.
It's bound to be very high because the field generated is not increased by winding additional loops like in a coil and in fact may be impossible to reach before the copper tube or magnet simply vaporizes.
 
 

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2015, 05:18:26 PM »
It does appear that a magnet either cannot be magnetized to generate a circular field or the field simply is contained inside the magnet.

Logically, the field is simply retained within the core the same as connecting several magnets to form a ring or even placing a keeper on a magnet and retaining the field within the magnet.

Just pondering why a conductor is so different I might think that a field is generated in the conductor core which pushes the moving electrons outward to the skin of the wire where another field is generated outside the wire in the air.

One field inside pushing electrons outward, another field outside expanding into the air.
If this were true it would be impossible to generate the same field by permanent magnets.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2015, 05:18:26 PM »
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Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2015, 04:25:53 PM »
.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2015, 04:44:03 PM »
.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2015, 04:44:03 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2015, 04:49:43 PM »
It does appear that a magnet either cannot be magnetized to generate a circular field or the field simply is contained inside the magnet.

Logically, the field is simply retained within the core the same as connecting several magnets to form a ring or even placing a keeper on a magnet and retaining the field within the magnet.

Just pondering why a conductor is so different I might think that a field is generated in the conductor core which pushes the moving electrons outward to the skin of the wire where another field is generated outside the wire in the air.

One field inside pushing electrons outward, another field outside expanding into the air.
If this were true it would be impossible to generate the same field by permanent magnets.
Why don't you try using a lower coercivity material?  If the idea is to find out whether something can be magnetized to emulate the field that surrounds a wire, then a piece of iron or steel rod may be the way to go.  Then you can do an iron filing pattern test to see if the field persists as it should even though it will be weak.  Other experiments could include running a wire much longer than the diameter of a washer through the middle, and then energizing and deenergizing the wire.  The other thing that you should watch out for is that your magnetizer current doesn't oscillate thereby making something of a degausser.  A fast diode across the wire ends should take care of that.

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2015, 05:13:55 PM »
Why don't you try using a lower coercivity material?  If the idea is to find out whether something can be magnetized to emulate the field that surrounds a wire, then a piece of iron or steel rod may be the way to go.  Then you can do an iron filing pattern test to see if the field persists as it should even though it will be weak.  Other experiments could include running a wire much longer than the diameter of a washer through the middle, and then energizing and deenergizing the wire.  The other thing that you should watch out for is that your magnetizer current doesn't oscillate thereby making something of a degausser.  A fast diode across the wire ends should take care of that.

I am reasonably convinced that the field generated by current flowing in a conductor is unique and is impossible to emulate with magnets.
However, a new discovery on making non-magnetic metals magnetic, indicates it may be possible from the following quote:

"In the new study, the researchers have shown how to change the exchange interaction and DOS in non-magnetic materials by removing some electrons using an interface coated with a thin layer of the carbon molecule C60, which is also called a ‘buckyball’. The movement of electrons between the metal and the molecules allows the non-magnetic material to overcome the Stoner Criterion."


So it seems that if a thin layer with magnetic properties could be formed with the right field direction on the outside of a non-magnetic metal, it may be possible to build a non-electrical wire that simulates a wire with a current flow.


Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2015, 05:21:47 PM »
Magnetization is just the process of aligning domains.  Since domains can take on any orientation, there is no reason that I can think of as to why you should not be able to magnetize circularly except right at the center of a disk.  I think that the problem you have magnetizing hard magnetic material is one of developing enough field strength.  That is why I am suggesting you experiment with relatively low coercivity materials to start.  Just eliminate reaching saturation flux as a requirement to start.  Assuming that you successfully magnetize circularly, as I think you should be able to do, then it would become a matter of engineering a magnetizing rig that develops an sufficiently intense field to magnetize the hard magnetic materal.

Here is a reference on defect detection using both circular and longitudal magnetization:  https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/FieldOrientation.htm

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2015, 05:30:30 PM »
My potential solutions to  the  'non-electric-faraday-motor'

Solutions
( 1 ) -  The  interaction in the  'First-Image'  I have attached below,  and applied in the ways below ( or combined with them ).

( 2 ) - The way  the  'non-electric-railguns' work,  but I thought I had seen one in which the  interacting  magnets were  90-degrees to each other,  but I cannot find it now.   (  but the angles of standard   'non-electric-railguns'  could work as well,   remembering,   the  static magnets  in the    'non-electric-railguns'  I have seen are all the same strength and angle,   perfect  )

(  I also  visualized  this solution  as a combination of the  two-rings( or 3 rings in my  Levitating-Object-Invention )  and my latest  New-Type-of-Magnetic-Bearing-Invention  )

(  I'm  not sure why I prefer the interaction of magnets at  90-degrees  to each other,  rather than other angles  )

(  And,  in a solution,  one or more of the interacting  magnetic-surfaces  might be made into  a brick-wall type pattern ,  and it would actually look like a standard  brick-wall pattern,  in order to get past  sticky points  )

The  second image ,   I have attached below,  another configuration and interaction I have found usefull for this problem

(  P.S. This site needs a  'function'  that when a   'Required-Scientific-Explanation'  is  'identified'  by it's  members,  and if it is deemed  important enough by a   'Person-Appointed-for-the-Function',    that then  the  'Person-Appointed-for-the-Function'  ensures that the  'Required-Scientific-Explanation'  is obtained from  appropriate sources.     The best example is this  'non-electric-faraday-motor'  problem .    Earlier,  I had noticed indications that  qualified  physicists( or from other fields ) do actually know the answer to this question (  although some think the explanation is too complicated for the members in this site too understand .   It's sad that members here are wasting their valuable time and materials and their energy in  'quasi-daft'  or  'overly complex'  attempted  solutions to an incredibly simple  problems,  that could be prevented from happening if they had  the  existing  'correct-scientific-answers'  from the correct sources .   )

 

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