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Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 119708 times)

MagnaProp

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 431
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2015, 05:47:14 AM »
You put two disc magnets like on the drawing below. You really feel the rotating force...
I have felt this force also but it is misleading. Spent a lot of time on this. An easier way of visualizing what is happening is to keep the bottom magnet stationary and feel the force of the other magnet trying to rotate around it. Assuming the bottom magnet can't move, the other magnet tries to rotate around the red axis and then flop down so the S and N poles touch each other if you let them. But if you hold the top magnet in between your fingers on the side, then it feels like it wants to rotate around the edge of the bottom magnet. But I found this is only because as the top magnet tries to rotate around the red axis, you unknowingly apply equal pressure to prevent the magnet from rotating and this pressure is what actually makes the magnet feel like it wants to move forward. It's because you are unknowingly pushing it forward while keeping it aligned to the edge of the bottom magnet.

Since your bottom magnet can move, what you are feeling is it trying to rotate around that same red axis to get the S and N poles lined up. As you can see, the red axis is not in the center of the large bottom magnet so it won't spin if its rotation point is put in the center as in your test.

So basically the magnets just try to get to the edge of the other magnet. The easiest way possible depending on how they are hinged. I made a magnet motor design on paper based on this but I seriously doubt it will work in real life.

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2015, 11:52:24 AM »
An easier way of visualizing what is happening is to keep the bottom magnet stationary and feel the force of the other magnet trying to rotate around it.

Why to do it that way, making things more unclear?

The feeling is very subjective, i know, and not really an evidence, but at least one has to do it the right way to feel it. The feeling is that the rotating magnet rotates more easily in one direction, than in the other.

If you make a magnet motor like that, it most likely will not work, because even if there is a rotating force, it cannot overcome friction. Good if there were a way to measure forces, like maybe using some quartz crystals.

Maybe one can try to hang it from the nikolayev trailer hitch, then likely at least two stator magnets have to be used on both sides, to balance it. But i suspect that the nikolayev trailer hitch is very unstable radially. The only way i have seen it used is that they put a pipe through this large disc magnet, and the hanging magnet is inside that pipe. I have thought, is that pipe also to prevent the hanging magnet from moving radially, if so, it cannot really be used as a magnetic bearing.

MagnaProp

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 431
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #152 on: September 25, 2015, 01:30:10 PM »
Why to do it that way, making things more unclear?...
Sorry. It's easier for me to understand that way. If the bottom magnet moves then maybe this image is easier to understand. It will want to move 90 degrees clockwise, then stop. It will want to pivot around the vertical red line axis if allowed to.

The only reason it may feel like it wants to rotate like a wheel is because table friction is essentially pinning it down along the orange vertical axis, which causes its right side to move into the page trying to obtain the same orientation as in the first scenario.

...If you make a magnet motor like that, it most likely will not work, because even if there is a rotating force, it cannot overcome friction...
Yes, friction is the biggest issue in my design. Its only hope is that the magnets are stronger than the friction and a couple other things. It would be a miracle if it self ran and an even bigger miracle if you could extract any electricity from it

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #153 on: September 25, 2015, 02:21:24 PM »
Magnaprop, i think try to use the mendocino magnetic bearings, read this thread above, the best solution i think so far, though not completely frictionless. Very easy to make too, you need only six disc magnets, a pencil or something, and maybe the best a piece of glass, such as a small mirror, to decrease friction. A bit of an act of balancing though. Sure two stator magnets at both sides to balance the radial forces. Maybe use some cardboard box to hold it all, or make it, use mounting tape to fix things, then you can adjust them all. Well, i in fact made the thing out of old cigarette lighters, but not sure whether this thing can be made that way. In hope it may help.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 05:45:32 PM by ayeaye »

MagnaProp

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 431
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #154 on: September 25, 2015, 11:19:10 PM »
Magnaprop, i think try to use the mendocino magnetic bearings...
Thanks I may try that but the design I'm working with causes more friction than even regular bearings cause. Slight design flaw on my part perhaps. The design is similar to your design. I think it works by acting like a long magnet with strong mushroom shaped poles at the ends but not much force in between.

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #155 on: September 26, 2015, 02:16:53 PM »
Put a paper on it, and iron filings on that paper, then you see what is the shape of the magnetic field, and you see the field lines. Iron filings are, if you have a file, and a piece of iron, such as a nail. File that piece of iron, and gather the iron powder that comes out of it, this is the iron filings. Each is like a tiny magnet, and they arrange in lines.

PS These white patches on that disk, these are pieces of mounting tape. Get some mounting tape, like that one from harbor freight http://www.harborfreight.com/8-1-2-half-ft-x-3-4-quarter-inch-double-sided-tape-45882.html . This is a thick, double sided adhesive tape. You can put all kind of things together with it, and it holds them together very strongly. You can take these pieces of mounting tape off, and put on again. It is like used instead of a glue, but it's better than glue in that it's easier to use, doesn't make everything dirty like a glue does, and it can be easily removed from just everything. But most importantly, it enables arrangements that can be adjusted, and can be easily changed. This is especially important for experiments.

MagnaProp

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 431
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2015, 10:26:48 PM »
Thanks. I'll give that and the double sided tape a try.

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #157 on: October 05, 2015, 12:21:03 PM »
Thanks. I'll give that and the double sided tape a try.

If you fail with something, please say too. This is important too, maybe equally important as success. The others know then what not to do, and don't waste their time.

I said i go to electronics, but i practically failed. Some people say things like, induced energy is not the energy that induced it. They are absolutely irresponsible, they don't understand induction at all. This is why i had to understand the theory of induction, It is interaction between electrons and dipoles, not dissimilar to the interaction between dipoles in magnets. As there is some evidence of overunity in magnets, then there should also be some in induction. But not in every kind of induction, in the ordinary coils and transformers there likely is none.

So now, if i will continue the research, i had to go to the pancake coils. Which is weird in that, i may even not need all the knowledge in electronics and oscilloscope, for that. I may do with a capacitor, resistor, and multimeter. Maybe i still need though.

There are some claims of overunity with pancake coils, using induction ovens. Simply they put a pancake coil on the induction oven, and claim that they get more energy out, than they put in. There are some other claims that pancake coils with some frequency have a rotating magnetic field.

I have my own idea what it may be caused by. I suspect pancake coils may in a way work like the faraday's homopolar generator, or n-machine. Inducing some dc current which has no lenz effect. So they may amplify current. There is though a lot to understand, what exactly happens there.

MagnaProp, or in fact anyone else. If you don't succeed in what you try, please replicate my field lines chain experiment with magnets. This experiment is very important for theoretical reasons, not obly about overunity in magnets, but it gives reason to say that there may also be overunity in induction, flowing liquids, maybe even in electrolysis, everywhere where there are atoms. It is about researching the same thing, atoms, which act like dipoles in magnetic interaction.

Replicating an experiment is very important. This is as important as doing your own experiment, and often helps to develop things further. All what matters in the research like this, is replicating the experiments. Because there is no way to prove by video or by any other means, that there is no fake. Only replicating the experiment b several people, confirms the results. Because it is not likely that many people fake. And even if many people fake, then this makes it easy to reveal what the fake is about, because they don't do the things exactly the same way.

It is very weird, my magnets experiments gives evidence of overunity, yet it is not replicated by anyone. You believe me, and thank you for that, but believing in me is not the way to prove. I know it's dull to replicate another experiment, but one should understand the importance of replicating.

Some of you are good people, i know, it makes my heart to melt to see how much you try. Only to do the research the right way, and we get results.

I failed in my induction experiment, but i paved a way to others, so that they will not have the lack of knowledge i had.

MagnaProp

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 431
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #158 on: October 05, 2015, 11:08:54 PM »
If you fail with something, please say too. This is important too, maybe equally important as success...
I agree. I think it's more important than success. It gives a clue as to what not to do which can be easily dismissed if all we are interested in is the successes. I was also looking at adding some electricity with alnico permanent magnets. Give them enough juice and the poles switch. So I was thinking fewer alnico magnets could do more work since the electrical switch time is brief and the on time of repulsion or attraction that we need is all for free since they are permanent magnets. I show 4 magnets here but I don't see why it couldn't be done with just one for even less power consumption. I guess they would have to be switched twice briefly which doesn't sound good. If we can add power to cencel them out briefly, that might be better.

guest1289

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #159 on: December 29, 2015, 12:47:32 AM »
Just 2 ideas,  I had to post.

[  IDEA NUMBER 1 :   This idea is too far-fetched,   but I am posting it anyway .
Some of you will remember,  how in this thread, we tried to find the explanation of why a Faraday-Motor just powered by permanent-magnets,  will not work   .
For me,  the explanation is that the interaction between 2 permanent-magnets contain no toothed-wheels,  whereas,  the interaction between a magnet and the field of an electrical conductor, just might.
The electrical-conductor may be toothed-wheel-1,  and it may induce( via induction ) some sort of toothed-wheel-2  in the magnet in the Faraday-motor  )
So,  I designed the magnet-motor below : -
- 'New type of magnet motor'
The new principle for this magnet motor is applied to both the
rotating-magnet ,  and also to the stator-magnet/magnets of
this motor .
The aim of this idea is to copy what happens in flowing currents
of water when their is an object ( pebble ) obstructing their path,
the pebble will cause either of two effects :
-  the water will deflect of the pebble in a spray
-  or,  the water may pulsate( take different paths around the
pebble)  of, and,  around,  the pebble,  in regular, or randomly timed
pulses .
To achieve/copy this effect with magnets,  you could make
composite magnets,  where small-magnets( or other materials ) are inserted into the surface
of a larger-magnet,  to create  'pebbles'.
THEN,  the magnetic spray ( or pulsing ) would provide the necessary
traction between the rotating-magnet ,  and the stator-magnet/magnets of this motor ,   because,   the  rotating-magnet ,  and the stator-magnet/magnets of this motor,  will be facing in opposite directions .
------------     ]

[    IDEA NUMBER 2 :  IN THE DIAGRAM BELOW,   I modified my magnet-motor which I first presented in    http://overunity.com/15860/can-anyone-identify-this-mystery-magnet-motor-or-provide-any-information/msg454842/#msg454842     ]

guest1289

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #160 on: December 30, 2015, 05:25:11 PM »
I have to post this idea,

It is based on the idea that a one-half of a bent cyclidner-magnet,  can propel a another cylinder-magnet .

[   BUT,  THE ROTATING-CYLINDER-MAGNET IN MY DESIGN,  HAS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TYPE OF MAGNETIC-POLARITY,   CHECK THE 2 DIAGRAMS BELOW ]

The magnets labelled 'B',  are arranged as stators,  and magnet labelled 'A' is the rotating magnet.

guest1289

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #161 on: January 13, 2016, 03:10:07 AM »
It would be great,  if anyone could do the necessary modifications to the diagrams of the last two magnet-motors I have posted on this thread,  it's pretty obvious what the necessary modifications are in order to perfect them,  as much as possible .

Anyway,  I just want to type that I have always thought that it should be very simple to drain-off unwanted eddy-currents in magnet-motors,  and have wondered why eddy-currents are always mentioned as obstacles in magnet-motor designs (  I haven't queried this, since I have no experience in this field )
-    But, the other day I read, about how simply  unwanted eddy-currents were being drained off from audio-headphone designs,  to enable them to function correctly .

guest1289

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #162 on: January 13, 2016, 08:10:46 PM »
Magnet-Motor-1
Below, the diagram of magnet-motor-1,  is probably self-explanatory .
-------------
Magnet-Motor-2
And, the next diagram is magnet-motor-2
It is based on the idea that a one-half of a bent cyclidner-magnet,  can propel another cylinder-magnet to move forward.

[   BUT,  THE ROTATING-CYLINDER-MAGNET IN MY DESIGN,  HAS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TYPE OF MAGNETIC-POLARITY,   CHECK THE 2 DIAGRAMS BELOW ]

The magnets labelled 'B',  are arranged as stators,  and magnet labelled 'A' is the magnet which is propelled forward .

guest1289

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #163 on: January 18, 2016, 04:13:40 PM »
I wonder if it would be possible to replace the permanent-magnets in an   magnet-motor
( overunity design ),  with electrostatic-charges,  positive,  and negative

guest1289

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #164 on: February 05, 2016, 11:16:55 PM »
(  In my previous post on this page,  « Reply #166 on: January 18, 2016, 04:13:40 PM »,  I didn't realize that electrostatic motors already exist  )

The question I can't find an answer to is,  do  permanent-magnets( bar magnets ) actually have an 'Electric-Field' which is 90-degrees offset from their N-S axis.
(   It seems to have originated along time ago by an academic who claimed to have achieved electrolysis just by using  permanent-magnets,  the origin of the term  magnetrolysis .  )

Obviously, a permanent-magnet  seems to have no effect on  tiny bits of paper or plastic, maybe someone should try with tiny fibres.  (  but is the electric-field of electrostatic electricity,  and the electric-field of the other electricity, identical )

Apparently, if you freeze an electrical conductor in water( while conducting ),  the field lines of  just  the  'electric-field'  appear and remain visible in the ice .