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### Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 118338 times)

#### forumblog

• Newbie
• Posts: 17
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #135 on: September 13, 2015, 02:08:32 AM »
ayeaye
Quote
Thus so far, only my field lines chain experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 seems to provide any overunity. How to make friction so small that it would rotate continuously, if that can be done at all, is another question though.

For some reason,  it's too difficult to properly see  Flcm3  in the video in the above webpage,   the video quality and video size on that page is not great,  and I have trouble making that video run smoothly .

If you really think you have something,  please draw a diagram showing the essential components and principle.
I know you don't like drawing on the computer,  a lot of people don't,  but try  'Paint' ( just press 'shift' when you have the  'oval'  symbol selected,  and it will draw a symmetrical circle ), and if you can print on paper,  you can finnish the diagram manually.

Most people interested in magnet-motors, wonder if the principles of the magnetic-rail-guns can be applied to a rotating magnet-motor .

Regarding the  Disc-Magnet  questions
Its not supposed to be a simple  disc-magnet,   it's actually a composite magnet in the shape of a  disc-magnet,   look at the second example in the diagram below
http://perm-med.ru/SIBERIAN_COLIA_3.jpg

You can find it in the following webpages,   and they also contain many similar and related designs (  but theyre not in english ) :
http://perm-med.ru/kfs_physics.html

http://realstrannik.ru/forum/48-temy-freeenergylt-antanasa/135031-sibirskij-kolya.html

http://cyberenergy.ru/transgeneratory/nikolaev-skalyarnoe-magnitnoe-pole-t64.html

But,  check out the  related device in the diagram below,  I think it's not as simple as it looks ( you would have to think of it using a diagram of the  magnetic-fields  of a  Donut-magnet,  the magnetic-field  diagram for the  Siberian-Colia   )
I would have thought that in the diagram below ,  that  one  of the 2 smaller disc-magnets should be  turned  180-degrees around,  to face the other way, to give it a chance of functioning
http://savepic.org/6043523.htm

http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/120/#.VfSnh9Kqqko

Inspect the first rows of image results in the image-search below

Or,  just paste  "siberian colia" in any google-powered  search engine and you'll see the same results.

( But as you know,  using 2 symmetrical  disc-magnets,  neither would have a reason to  rotate,  because it could not gain any advantage in rotating,   since it's symmetrical,   but if I tried,  I could think up reasons why it might have a reason to rotate.
This again brings up the question,  why does  Faraday's Motor( electric-motor ) work,  it's all symmetrical,  but one of the 2 magnets is an  electromagnet  )

Now here is the thing, I cannot figure out
Look at the levitation novelty-toy  below
I would use the idea above,   but I would replace the  diamagnetic  floating object,  with a  Permanent-Magnet  floating object.
I think that if you you used a much larger  grid-of-magnets /  array-of-magnets,  in that video,   and then put a   large-flat-magnetic-sled  on the grid,   to levitate above the grid,   that it would levitate successfully,   and  if you put side magnets to keep the sled from  falling out of the grid,    then it would  break  'Earnshaw's Theorem'(  'Earnshaw's Theorem'  states that magnetic levitation using only permanent-magnets,  is impossible,  and has never been done )  .
The toy shop for that video has alot of useful things.
(  Permanent-magnet  arrays / grids  seem to be the answer to breaking   'Earnshaw's Theorem',  it would be quite an achievement   )

I cannot figure why this all  permanent-magnet levitation idea would not work

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #136 on: September 13, 2015, 06:21:31 AM »
If you really think you have something,  please draw a diagram showing the essential components and principle.

I don't know what diagram to draw. I can describe what it shows there.

These are small ceramic magnets, 5 mm x 5 mm x 3 mm. The orientation of the magnets is this, when looking towards the edge of the disk:

[N S]    [N S]    [N S]    [N S]    [N S]    [N S]

The stator magnet is towards the disk with the north pole.

Now when moving the disk so that the stator magnet is at the peak of the repulsion force of the first magnet, then moving slightly to one or another direction from that point and releasing the disk, makes the disk to move either in one or another direction. When moving backwards, away from the chain of magnets, the disk moves only because of the repulsion force of the first magnet. We used energy to move the disk to the peak of the repulsion force of the first magnet, thus how much the disk moves backwards, is the measure of that initial energy that we gave to the disk.

The result was that the disk moved by the chain of magnets some two times more than backwards. Which indicates that such chain of magnets supposed to give the disk some additional energy.

This experiment was done by hand, that is, the disk was moved to the initial position by hand. Thus its only importance is that it can be replicated. The disk has to be moved to the initial position accurately, who has worked with permanent magnets, knows how to feel the peak of force.

I have also found that the experiment gives the same results with four 7 x 7 x 5 mm ceramic magnets, which are easier to obtain, but the results are a bit worse. Such stronger magnets have to be put at i guess two times greater distances from each other than the magnets in the original experiment. I said that somewhere here earlier.

It is not possible to achieve a continuous rotation with a chain of magnets like this, the disk and bearings like this, which was an old processor fan. Because the additional energy is too small to overcome friction.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 02:28:21 PM by ayeaye »

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #137 on: September 13, 2015, 02:00:40 PM »
Forumblog,

The rotation force in all cases, my experiment, my previous post, and the faraday's homopolar motor, is due to the same reason, movement by field lines, as drawn on the image below. This causes two forces, movement by field lines and repulsion, as shown on the drawing below. At that the repulsion may be much greater force than movement by field lines, which may make it difficult if not impossible to utilize the effect, as said in my post before.

The overunity is possibly caused by the fact that during the magnetic interaction (that is in interaction of magnets, magnets and current, magnetic induction and induction in the faraday's homopolar generator) the speed of the electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom (dipole) does not decrease. Which increases the order at the zero point, thus decreasing the energy at the zero point, and may come from the zero point energy. Some physicists have also shown that the energy of the dipoles comes from the zero point energy. But this is a speculation, it's better to say that the things are how they are. Because any possible explanation may happen to be wrong, and thus providing such explanation may make the results of the experiments not valid.

But this is the reason why i'm doing experiments not only on magnet motors, but also on magnetic induction https://archive.org/details/ndischarge . In fact, this field lines chain experiment above, made me to conclude that there is overinity in permanent magnets, but achieving continuous rotation in permanent magnet motors is not possible, no matter how the permanent magnet motors are made. Or it can be possible, but in some extreme cases using very advanced technical solutions, and the energy that can be extracted from that is extremely small.

Which makes permanent magnet motors first unpractical, and second difficult to replicate. Which removes all the benefit of them in the experiments done in places like here, because the only value they can have is that they can be replicated by a number of people. But at that, like as you see the popularity of this thread, people prefer permanent magnets to any electronics, as they think that they are simpler. Finding solutions in extreme cases as it turned out to be in the case of permanent magnet motors, is likely not simpler at all, but people believe that, so the permanent magnet motors cannot be abandoned.

PS I'm using linux, so i use gimp for image processing, and also drawing. The difference of gaussians gives in fact very good results, i had to use it before.

#### SoManyWires

• Full Member
• Posts: 205
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #138 on: September 13, 2015, 09:13:22 PM »
ayeaye
For some reason,  it's too difficult to properly see  Flcm3  in the video in the above webpage,   the video quality and video size on that page is not great,  and I have trouble making that video run smoothly .

If you really think you have something,  please draw a diagram showing the essential components and principle.
I know you don't like drawing on the computer,  a lot of people don't,  but try  'Paint' ( just press 'shift' when you have the  'oval'  symbol selected,  and it will draw a symmetrical circle ), and if you can print on paper,  you can finnish the diagram manually.

Most people interested in magnet-motors, wonder if the principles of the magnetic-rail-guns can be applied to a rotating magnet-motor .

Regarding the  Disc-Magnet  questions
Its not supposed to be a simple  disc-magnet,   it's actually a composite magnet in the shape of a  disc-magnet,   look at the second example in the diagram below
http://perm-med.ru/SIBERIAN_COLIA_3.jpg

You can find it in the following webpages,   and they also contain many similar and related designs (  but theyre not in english ) :
http://perm-med.ru/kfs_physics.html

http://realstrannik.ru/forum/48-temy-freeenergylt-antanasa/135031-sibirskij-kolya.html

http://cyberenergy.ru/transgeneratory/nikolaev-skalyarnoe-magnitnoe-pole-t64.html

But,  check out the  related device in the diagram below,  I think it's not as simple as it looks ( you would have to think of it using a diagram of the  magnetic-fields  of a  Donut-magnet,  the magnetic-field  diagram for the  Siberian-Colia   )
I would have thought that in the diagram below ,  that  one  of the 2 smaller disc-magnets should be  turned  180-degrees around,  to face the other way, to give it a chance of functioning
http://savepic.org/6043523.htm

http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/120/#.VfSnh9Kqqko

Inspect the first rows of image results in the image-search below

Or,  just paste  "siberian colia" in any google-powered  search engine and you'll see the same results.

( But as you know,  using 2 symmetrical  disc-magnets,  neither would have a reason to  rotate,  because it could not gain any advantage in rotating,   since it's symmetrical,   but if I tried,  I could think up reasons why it might have a reason to rotate.
This again brings up the question,  why does  Faraday's Motor( electric-motor ) work,  it's all symmetrical,  but one of the 2 magnets is an  electromagnet  )

Now here is the thing, I cannot figure out
Look at the levitation novelty-toy  below
I would use the idea above,   but I would replace the  diamagnetic  floating object,  with a  Permanent-Magnet  floating object.
I think that if you you used a much larger  grid-of-magnets /  array-of-magnets,  in that video,   and then put a   large-flat-magnetic-sled  on the grid,   to levitate above the grid,   that it would levitate successfully,   and  if you put side magnets to keep the sled from  falling out of the grid,    then it would  break  'Earnshaw's Theorem'(  'Earnshaw's Theorem'  states that magnetic levitation using only permanent-magnets,  is impossible,  and has never been done )  .
The toy shop for that video has alot of useful things.
(  Permanent-magnet  arrays / grids  seem to be the answer to breaking   'Earnshaw's Theorem',  it would be quite an achievement   )

I cannot figure why this all  permanent-magnet levitation idea would not work

thoughtful and well said.

i too subscribe to this understanding about magnetics.

sometimes the possible, is not truely impossible. one must remain optimistic about the evolving future.

cheers

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #139 on: September 13, 2015, 10:09:51 PM »
One thing about this composite disc magnet, of siberian colia i guess. This may remove part of the negative repulsion, and negative attraction, because the other half of the magnet is opposite. Maybe. This like more emulates a circular field, and the magnets emulating circular field are a kind of composite magnets. But it is not a completely circular field.

#### sm0ky2

• Hero Member
• Posts: 3948
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #140 on: September 14, 2015, 08:00:09 PM »
Howard Johnson used composite magnets, and wrote extensively on the subject.

when used properly, one can gain complete control of how, and where the magnetic field bends, expands, contracts.
advanced techniques can build up "magnetic pressure", causing it to release at a certain point

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #141 on: September 14, 2015, 08:47:50 PM »
when used properly, one can gain complete control of how, and where the magnetic field bends, expands, contracts.

Yes whatever but, i think overunity still comes from movement by field lines. And the problem is, there is overunity, but this overunity is too small on permanent magnets.

Isn't making things with permanent magnets like, go fishing, and then go to fish in a place where you can get only tiny fish, while there are places where you can catch fish several feet long? More difficult to catch these bigger fishes, sure, you certainly need some better equipment. But it's worth of that.

What i mean is that's the same, the overunity is caused by the same things. But like in induction there is likely more of it, and things can be controlled more. Permanent magnets are like inconvenient packages, where good and bad are always packed together. Something like a pizza, but there is very little meat in it. You can eat more of that pizza, but you cannot eat too much. So no matter what, you cannot get enough what you need from that pizza.

I think some here don't like me now, thinking i'm a pessimist. They don't see that i'm an optimist, willing to do whatever it takes to get overunity. Even with permanent magnets. But, all there is, is that i think that it's better to use one's efforts in a more efficient way, not to stick to the solutions which very unlikely give much positive.

Oh and, someone said, magnetic gun. Magnetic gun is moving by field lines. Maybe it works better though with a radially magnetized moving magnet, or such. And again, try to achive a continuous rotation with that, may well not be possible.

#### SoManyWires

• Full Member
• Posts: 205
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #142 on: September 14, 2015, 10:40:07 PM »
Yes whatever but, i think overunity still comes from movement by field lines. And the problem is, there is overunity, but this overunity is too small on permanent magnets.

Isn't making things with permanent magnets like, go fishing, and then go to fish in a place where you can get only tiny fish, while there are places where you can catch fish several feet long? More difficult to catch these bigger fishes, sure, you certainly need some better equipment. But it's worth of that.

What i mean is that's the same, the overunity is caused by the same things. But like in induction there is likely more of it, and things can be controlled more. Permanent magnets are like inconvenient packages, where good and bad are always packed together. Something like a pizza, but there is very little meat in it. You can eat more of that pizza, but you cannot eat too much. So no matter what, you cannot get enough what you need from that pizza.

I think some here don't like me now, thinking i'm a pessimist. They don't see that i'm an optimist, willing to do whatever it takes to get overunity. Even with permanent magnets. But, all there is, is that i think that it's better to use one's efforts in a more efficient way, not to stick to the solutions which very unlikely give much positive.

Oh and, someone said, magnetic gun. Magnetic gun is moving by field lines. Maybe it works better though with a radially magnetized moving magnet, or such. And again, try to achive a continuous rotation with that, may well not be possible.

na, its easy to appreciate different perspectives.
the most logical perspectives based on your evaluations made such as your experiments with magnets do actually help.

can't hate over that.

you've actually made efforts at attempting to understand permanent magnet principles, and you did so constructing testing apparatus.
not many people have even gone that far. and even though the results were not what was hoped for with the experiments, never the less
you did try. that is still worthy of a salute.

and you even still think a continuous rotation is not yet proven entirely possible.
its good you too have allowed this consideration should anyone get to making that happen eventually.

and without the ad nausium of scams that do nothing to help further researchers to work in a less polluted environment,
as they basically aim fill their wallets with dirty money as they rob decent people and aim to do so with little conscience.

i too can see the logic in your evaluation and respect your choices in venturing less further in such direction.
there are lots of already working and useful products available to people that have been proven to work,
and it can be a good thing to try and find improvements with those if so inspired, it might be something like a better solar tracking design, power storage, hydrogen, others, even with things such as the medical field or even helping the lives of patients to become a little less challenging, or a better pizza, if that is possible by finding ways to get it to be a more balanced diet using additives without making it more expensive. and maybe 3d printable.
rather than focusing on trying to rewrite any established physics laws, honestly.
time management is something you understand well.

all the best

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #143 on: September 15, 2015, 02:20:05 AM »
Thank you

Rewriting the laws of physics, i don't know, not inevitably necessary. Like the first law of thermodynamics says nothing about any energy at 0 degrees kelvin.

#### SoManyWires

• Full Member
• Posts: 205
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #144 on: September 15, 2015, 03:06:48 AM »
Thank you

Rewriting the laws of physics, i don't know, not inevitably necessary. Like the first law of thermodynamics says nothing about any energy at 0 degrees kelvin.

i should probably be posting this somewhere else instead on this site, though you might find this interesting to know about atoms being able to be transferred from colder temps than 0 degrees kelvin, to degrees of warmer temps still colder than kelvin. it did involve some useful magnetic fields in the projects construction, though it is not a permanent magnet motor.
also in their 2013 study they had to utilize a reasonable amount of energy to create the effect, and it was not creating excess energy.
they do suggest supercooling could eventually result in more efficient looping energy transfer.

"We have created the first negative absolute temperature state for moving particles," said researcher Simon Braun at the University of Munich in Germany.

New kinds of engines

Negative temperatures could be used to create heat engines — engines that convert heat energy to mechanical work, such as combustion engines — that are more than 100-percent efficient, something seemingly impossible. Such engines would essentially not only absorb energy from hotter substances, but also colder ones. As such, the work the engine performed could be larger than the energy taken from the hotter substance alone.

Negative temperatures might also help shed light on one of the greatest mysteries in science. Scientists had expected the gravitational pull of matter to slow down the universe's expansion after the Big Bang, eventually bringing it to a dead stop or even reversing it for a "Big Crunch." However, the universe's expansion is apparently speeding up, accelerated growth that cosmologists suggest may be due to dark energy, an as-yet-unknown substance that could make up more than 70 percent of the cosmos.

http://www.livescience.com/25959-atoms-colder-than-absolute-zero.html

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #145 on: September 15, 2015, 03:02:56 PM »

How is that possible in a uniform field?

A big misconception is that a generator or motor requires changing flux density to operate.
In fact all magnetically induced generators work only by a conductor cutting flux lines, changing the flux density is only an easy way to achieve it.

It's no wonder things never get anywhere with this kind of thinking.
How on earth can a conductor cut lines of flux that dont exist?-->there are no magnetic lines of flux-the field is uniform.
The change in magnetic flux density is exactly what causes a current to flow through an inductor/conductor,not some imaginary lines of flux being cut.

#### lumen

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1388
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #146 on: September 15, 2015, 05:25:04 PM »
It's no wonder things never get anywhere with this kind of thinking.
How on earth can a conductor cut lines of flux that dont exist?-->there are no magnetic lines of flux-the field is uniform.
The change in magnetic flux density is exactly what causes a current to flow through an inductor/conductor,not some imaginary lines of flux being cut.

You might want to research that a bit more. Flux lines do not exist but are used to show field direction.
It is in fact a conductor cutting a magnetic field that causes current flow and density is only a stronger field.
The Faraday generator uses a uniform field and yet the conductor has current flow.

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #147 on: September 15, 2015, 10:08:38 PM »
It is in fact a conductor cutting a magnetic field that causes current flow

Everything magnetic is because of the dynamic movement of electrons in the dipoles (atoms). When the magnetic field lines cut the wire, so to say, what likely really happens is that the electrons on one side of the nucleus, moving in one direction, come "closer" to the wire, in that they are less behind the positive charge of the nucleus. And the electrons at the other side of the nucleus, moving in the opposite direction, move "away" from the wire. Both of which cause the electrons in the wire to move in the same direction. For the same reason as the magnetic induction, which i described in a separate thread here.

But the induction by field lines cutting the wire is yes, not caused by the increase of the magnetic field, but rather by movement of the axis. Like when it's summer, the sun is not closer to the earth, but the earth axis is orientated so that the sunlight comes to a certain areas more at a greater angle.

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #148 on: September 16, 2015, 06:19:52 AM »
You might want to research that a bit more. Flux lines do not exist but are used to show field direction.
It is in fact a conductor cutting a magnetic field that causes current flow and density is only a stronger field.
The Faraday generator uses a uniform field and yet the conductor has current flow.

Well you must have faild 6th grade.
Go and have another look at the homopolar generator where the magnts move with the conducting disk. Now-how is that conductor moving in relationship with the magnets?-where and how is that conductor cutting the imaginary lines of flux.

You guys make me laugh. Here you are trying to explain the workings of magnetism, and yet you have no idea as to what the magnetic force is.

When you hold a ball in your hand while you are seated in a vehicle doing 70mph, the ball is not moving when the car is used as your reference point, but is moving at 70mph when that reference point is one without motion. Now apply this to the homopolar generator with and without the magnets being fixed, and see how you go.

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #149 on: September 16, 2015, 07:53:41 AM »
In the Faraday's homopolar generator, as i already said, the forces to the electron in the disc, when the dipoles move circularly, before and after they pass the electron, form two vectors with the same force, which are at an angle from each other. The vector sum of these vectors is radial, and this makes electrons in the disc to move radially.

Now what is important is the movement of dipoles relative to electons. Electrons in a metal form an electron gas, which is independent of atoms, thus the electrons don't necessarily move together with atoms (dipoles). And in the homopolar generator, electrons are also not given a circular speed, they are only given a radial speed. This is why the effect happens also in a rotating permanent magnet made of metal, such as in the DePalma's n-machine. There when the magnet rotates, the dipoles in the magnet rotate, but the free electrons don't rotate, and thus the dipoles rotate relative to the electrons in the magnet.

Weirdly though, what is important is the movement of dipoles relative to the electrons. But if in the Faraday's homopolar generator we rotate the magnets, and the disc stands still, no current is generated. This though doesn't mean that relative motion is not important, this may mean that the rotation of the disc has some additional effect, like it makes the electrons more free.