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Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 73415 times)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #120 on: August 30, 2015, 09:27:26 PM »
Ok, i put my drawing of the magnetic bearings here, too, say it's wrong ;)

There is one reason though why magnetic bearings may not be a solution. And this is because when the magnetic field of the rotor is not even, it is a kind of "bumpy". And magnetic bearings don't hold the rotor firmly in place. Thus the rotor would shake, and this is where the energy would be lost.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 02:10:16 AM by ayeaye »

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #120 on: August 30, 2015, 09:27:26 PM »

Offline SoManyWires

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #121 on: August 31, 2015, 08:29:15 AM »
Ok, i put my drawing of the magnetic bearings here, too, say it's wrong ;)

There is one reason though why magnetic bearings may not be a solution. And this is because when the magnetic field of the rotor is not even, it is a kind of "bumpy". And magnetic bearings don't hold the rotor firmly in place. Thus the rotor would shake, and this is where the energy would be lost.

the floating objects dimensions might get past that, if they are covering more surface area than 3 or 4 of the tracks lower surface magnet fields.
also there is other side positioned magnets to act as side stabilizers that could also be fixed in place in a less permanent and more adjustable way, if that too is useful.

perhaps magnets ordered according to the diameter of a drill bit used on small plastic blocks of which to position the magnets, and on the blocks create slotted channels or larger diameter holes that a washer and hex or other fasteners can hold the magnet blocks into place though allowing for very gradient adjustability on the projects jig work area.

some types of welding jigs are good examples for being adjustable when thinking about how to design a testing platform.
even standard pegboard that was meant to mount on walls for hooks could be repurposed for the exact geometry they have for lining things up better if drilling by hand is less accurate and no cnc machine around.
if working with small magnets, you might even be able to modify lego blocks cheaply for all this because they can keep perfect alignment, are non conductive, and unless a 45 or other non linear angles are needed, are easy to relocate.

could also help reduce chipping magnets during possibly alot of position adjustments using this method until fixed proper locations are determined.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #122 on: August 31, 2015, 04:48:11 PM »
Yesterday ,  in another thread,  I suggested a modification of  ayeaye 's  magnetic-bearing,  the  Diagram  below .  The  Large-Disk in the middle,  is a magnetic-disk,  for repulsion from the side  stators .

(  Obviously,  all the magnets which cause the actual  'Levitation', those magnets should be much longer than the very flattish/thinnish magnets I have drawn in the diagram,  they should be cylinder-magnets   )

(  Years ago I thought up almost the same design (  actually the one below )  as  ayeaye 's.   But I thought it was so obvious  that it would already have been tried.  So because I had never seen it on the internet or anywhere,  I assumed it was worthless,  so I just decided to forget about it .   )

(  You'll notice I don't actually have your experience in this field,  which is why I'm not sure if  ayeaye  has a reason for not putting a  magnetic-disc  in the middle   )

As far as I know,  ayeaye  is the first person to have published this idea .

(  I have noticed more than one prize offered for anyone who can disprove rules of physics,   if   ayeaye 's   idea gets around   'Earnshaw's Theorem'  ,   he should consider applying for the prizes   )

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #122 on: August 31, 2015, 04:48:11 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #123 on: September 02, 2015, 03:38:21 AM »
Well, i tried it. I too have no tools. But i happened to have two big cigarette lighters, and a pencil, not sharpened. So i fixed two disc magnets to the end of each cigarette lighter, with a mounting tape. And i put a piece of mounting tape below each cigarette lighter, to fix them to the table. To fix them to the table so that they face each other with the ends with magnets on them. Then i fixed disc magnets to both ends of the pencil, with a mounting tape. The magnets were all ceramic disc magnets 10 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick. Mounting tape fixed the magnets firmly, there was no problem with this. All this arrangement was quite good, and everything was well adjustable. The pencil was very long, too, so some rotor can be attached to the middle, with practically no magnetic interference with the bearing magnets.

Now what the results were. I put the pencil, that supposed to be the rotor, between the two cigarette lighters. It held very well side wise, between the bearing magnets, side wise it was completely stable on both sides, no problem with that. But along the direction of the axis it was not stable, and ended up falling down, to one end or the other. So there was no way to keep it in the air.

Now i don't have any clear idea how to solve that. It needs either ring magnets, or then somehow extending the axis beyond the magnets at the ends of the pencil. Mounting tape likely cannot do that alone, but together with some adhesive tape wrapped around, it might be possible. The forces are not great at all. But the magnets that hold the rotor in place lengthwise, cannot be near the two bearing magnets, that will remove the "groove" the magnets at the ends of the pencil sit in.

Maybe now someone else would continue that experiment, from the point where i ended? Why should i be the only one who does experiments on that great thing? As i don't have anything necessary for it, more than anyone else has.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #124 on: September 02, 2015, 04:40:39 AM »
I found a stable position! On the picture below, the end of the pencil stays in the air. The other end was though 40 mm on a cigarette pack. This couldn't hold the other end of the pencil in the air, but it slightly resisted the pencil's lengthwise movement. Finding the stable position was very difficult. The magnets at the ends of the two cigarette lighters were oriented so that they attracted each other, but repulsed the corresponding pole of the disc magnet at the end of the pencil.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #124 on: September 02, 2015, 04:40:39 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #125 on: September 02, 2015, 07:14:08 PM »
Now another stable position on the picture below. This time the other end of the pencil was only 20 mm on the cigarette pack. But this time the pencil had some extra weight of lead on it. It seems though that there is a small stable spot between these magnets. But if so, it's very small, and going slightly out of it, makes the end of the pencil to fall to some of the magnets.

That's all the experiment i can do with this arrangement i think. Who can think about some other ways, would be welcome to experiment some more.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2015, 08:18:48 PM »
What your'e trying to build,   and modify to get around  "Earnshaws Theorem"  is called   'Mendocino' bearing or motor or system .

I know you can't waste more time building that,  since it's outside of your usual field  'electronics' .

(  I assume you look at the  youtube videos of this bearing  )

(  Sorry that I can't build anything,  there's nothing I can do to change that  )

However,  I have sent you some  important  further information in a message

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2015, 08:18:48 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #127 on: September 02, 2015, 09:21:19 PM »
Thank you for Mendocino, no, i didn't know that before, but it is slightly different. The Mendocino bearing is made so that lengthwise there is a push only to one direction, and the end of the pencil goes against some glass or something, and rotates on that. I suggested that it can be stable also lengthwise, but couldn't completely prove it, as the possible stable spot seems to be very small.

The Nikolayev trailer hitch is another possibility of course, when the rotor hangs from it or something. This is really a stable system for magnetic bearing, and can be used. The only problem, it needs a very big ring magnet, or maybe it can be a disc magnet, but it has to be big, so it easily interferes with any magnet motor there can be on the rotor.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #128 on: September 03, 2015, 07:38:27 PM »
But Mendocino bearings, they can be used in magnet motors, when the problem is not completely solved. They have a kind of one pin bearing (a needle against the surface), yes. But the force to that bearing is very small. It is much smaller than all the weight of the rotor were on the bearing, the force is very small, it is just to keep the rotor lengthwise in balance.

Enough for a practical solution, i think. I didn't want to solve any theoretical problems, but as i didn't know about the Mendocino bearings, i had to figure it out. And in the process i happened to find that there may be some way how such bearings may be completely in balance, that is completely in the air, with no physical contact.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #129 on: September 03, 2015, 09:17:34 PM »
I have sent you another message about this bearing, and connected things,  you'll see in the message

Offline forumblog

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #130 on: September 08, 2015, 08:32:12 PM »
I would assume that the  following device is just the result of the  un-winding of the string
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2YRPNHz9c

I have also seen diagrams of this which related to the research/work regarding  siberian kolya .

But it would be a great basis for a some type of  magnetic-bearing ,  even if only for home use

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #131 on: September 08, 2015, 10:15:02 PM »
I would assume that the  following device is just the result of the  un-winding of the string
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2YRPNHz9c

I don't know, how can it be that way? Rotating like that should wind the thread, so it cannot rotate for so long. But i don't know. Sometimes, hanging a magnet from a thread in my hand like this, i like got an impression that it rotates infinitely around the bigger magnet. But whenever i fix the end of thread anywhere, it only rotates until it winds the thread. This, hanging from a thread, may be very deceptive though. The magnetic forces act in a weird way, and what happens just because of the initial kinetic energy, may look like moving because of some power. One thing, as much as i have seen, a magnet in that arrangement will never start to move from a standing position.

Anyway, this is no miracle there. Unless it starts from a static position, or rotates for an hour like this. Like hang something from a thread, without any magnet, make it to rotate, and you see that it can rotate quite a long.

About the magnetic bearings, again i think that the Mendocino bearings are the best for experiments. Very easy to make, from very ordinary magnets, and the pressure to the mechanical bearing is very small, it is rather just a balancing. And a kind of bearings which one can use, when one has no bearings. Mendocino bearings are something like on my picture above, plus the end of the pencil goes against some surface, Not exactly, but i think one gets the idea.

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2015, 12:10:18 AM »
It's in orbit as you see the speed increase as the orbit lowers. (compare speed at start and end of video)
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL2YRPNHz9c
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 03:43:12 AM by lumen »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #133 on: September 10, 2015, 07:53:47 PM »
You put two disc magnets like on the drawing below. You really feel the rotating force. But the question is how to utilize that. Because the force down is a lot greater. Causes a lot of friction to the bearings, so that the rotating force cannot overcome that. Even with magnetic bearings it's hard to compensate the force down.

This may be just my subjective feeling. But you may try it and say whether you feel the same.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #134 on: September 12, 2015, 05:47:11 PM »
I tried it that way, on the picture below. This is actually a cigarette pack, the axis are made from paperclips (removed plastic from them and used pliers to bend them), and fixed with a mounting tape. No luck, no rotation. So the rotating force may be there, but it is evidently very small, so it is not possible to show it in any feasible way. I would say it rotated a bit, when the disc was slightly out of balance. What i can say though, when placing another disc magnet near that rotating disc magnet as shown in the previous post, and do it carefully so that it is exactly radial, then the rotating disc magnet did not move at all in the direction of its axis, but remained perfectly still. Just who may try experiments like that, so they know it can be done that way, yet it cannot be made to rotate.

Thus so far, only my field lines chain experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 seems to provide any overunity. How to make friction so small that it would rotate continuously, if that can be done at all, is another question though.

 

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