GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 82511
  • *Latest: Danmish

  • *Total Posts: 497744
  • *Total Topics: 14730
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 7
  • *Guests: 30
  • *Total: 37

Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 74417 times)

Offline Jim36

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Permanent magnet motor
« on: May 18, 2015, 07:24:19 PM »
Hi all,

I'm new to the OverUnity forum and relatively new to the search for alternative / exotic energy sources. My background is electrical engineering (mainly power distribution) and in the summer last year I built a few variations to the Heins Thanes Bi-toroid transformer which, from my findings doesn't give any increased output or ‘overunity’ (though it did give me some great hands on experience with transformer design and seeing the law of conservation at work!). I have since been working on some ideas of my own and would like to have one dissected by more experienced veterans of the subject before going ahead and producing a prototype. 

The idea is to replicate the magnetic field produced around a wire carrying DC with a permanent magnet. From this it might be possible to create a homopolar motor? My thoughts are that this type of magnet should produce right angled force / movement when placed in another straight flux lined magnetic field.

The magnet would be a cylindrical tube shaped with the flux contained inside the material (flux orientation following the path of the circumference). One problem stands out to me at present, the cylinder/tube magnet is unlike copper wire which is diamagnetic so they will be some attraction between the cylindrical tube magnet and the magnets creating the external stator field. This might be overcome with setting the cylinder magnet exactly centre between the stator field magnets giving a net zero attraction (same pull each side).

I have tried quite a few magnet companies and most said it wasn’t possible or it would need large investment to produce this type of magnet from Neodymium, I found one company that said they can produce these magnets made from FeCrCo for $430 (2 No).
 
I have attached some drawings to help understand the concept. Please comment and point out anything that stands out.
Thanks
Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Permanent magnet motor
« on: May 18, 2015, 07:24:19 PM »

Offline shylo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2015, 01:23:59 PM »
Hi Jim, Are you saying your tube  magnet will have 1 pole on half of the tube and the opposite pole on the other half?
artv

Offline Jim36

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2015, 01:41:54 PM »
Hi Artv,

No the tube will have no poles in the air as such, just flux in a circular direction, I've attached another drawing showing the magnet cut down the centre, this would then create 4 poles exposed to air, when this is placed back together the field is continuous (circular) within the material. Another example to clarify this is a toroidal shaped transformer used in engineering today, the main flux path is circular within the toroid with little flux leakage.

Jim


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2015, 01:41:54 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline ayeaye

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2015, 07:25:53 PM »
In my simple mind i don't understand how it works, why should it rotate at all? When the magnetic field is circular, then maybe something can rotate inside that cylinder magnet perhaps, but i'm not sure that it is so circular.

I too tried to make a bi-toroid transformer. I got a deflection yoke core, and a microcontroller, and i also have two small toroid cores. But then i figured out that it likely will not work, or then all thing becomes very complex. So i decided to make some much simpler experiment, using a simple coil with the same core. Finally, all the magick is in induction. The magnetic field and finally the voltage induced in the coil, depends on the speed with which the initial current increases, not on the strength of the current, should be so by equations too. And no, this voltage is not useless, when used in the right way. And i still think that this experiment worked. This is the thread here about that experiment http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VVttSzr52rM .

What concerns the permanent magnets, what i could figure out is that there should be some kind of asymmetry in the magnetic field, to have overunity. And i did a simple experiment as well, which i think also worked, but the excess energy was not enough for continuous rotation. The discussion about that happened to be in this thread here http://overunity.com/15711/a-possible-violation-of-the-law-of-conservation-of-energy/#.VVtv6Tr52rM .

Offline Jim36

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2015, 08:57:00 PM »
If you take a look at the attached picture it shows why a copper wire rotor will rotate in a stator magnetic field (shown by the blue arrow), what isn't shown in this picture is the actual magnetic field around the wire that interacts with the stator magnetic field to produce this motion, it instead gives you flemings left hand rule for motors which is a way of understanding direction of force with direction of current (red arrows) in a wire within the magnetic field. See also picture of a magnetic field around a wire to understand the concept of rotation for my design. The asymmetrical component of the motor is the cylindrical/tube magnet.

Finally, all the magick is in induction. The magnetic field and finally the voltage induced in the coil, depends on the speed with which the initial current increases, not on the strength of the current, should be so by equations too. And no, this voltage is not useless, when used in the right way. And i still think that this experiment worked. This is the thread here about that experiment http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VVttSzr52rM .

'I think' what you are talking about is well known in electrical engineering/physics and called faraday's law of induction. EMF is a product of the rate of change of the magnetic field and the rate of change of the the magnetic field is directly linked to the rate of change in current. The equation is E= - dØ/dt (EMF = change in flux/time). Some times this is exploited as in the 'joule thief' circuit, this works on the basis of switching the circuit off which will make the magnetic field collapse very suddenly producing a high voltage across the inductor with a proportionally reduced current so power stays the same. I will have a look at the links have pasted to see whats going on.

Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2015, 08:57:00 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline ayeaye

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2015, 09:47:09 PM »
I'm afraid that you don't understand it correctly. You seem to mix two things, the induction of a magnetic field around the wire, due to moving charged particles, the left hand rule, which is induction of magnetic field from an electrostatic field. And the force moving the electric motor, which is only an interaction between magnetic fields. And as much as i understand, this works only because the field lines around the wire which go to the right direction, are closer to the pole of the permanent magnet, until the wire reaches the pole that is. When the wire is at the pole as on your drawing, as much as i understand there is no force, and the direction of the dc current has to be switched at that moment.

Yes the law of induction, but the voltage generated is used the right way, due to the diode. Because what happens in most circuits, is that every time there would be fast oscillations between the coil and the capacitor, which finally settle in the state where no excess energy from the voltage pulse is gained, and all that is lost to heat in wires. The diode prevents that. No, a joule thief does not prevent that either. And this is about the initial voltage peak, not the back emf of the coil, when making it like this, there would be no significant back emf.

I prefer using the most basic principles, to also have the best theoretical foundation. Instead of any advanced devices.

Offline phoneboy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 01:23:47 AM »
Your premise might work if you could encapsulate a circular magnetic field but it would only turn 180 degrees then lock right??

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 01:23:47 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Jim36

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2015, 11:24:08 AM »
Hi Ayeaye,

My thoughts are whenever a ccc (current carrying conductor) comes into a magnetic field, there will be force acting on the conductor and on the other hand, if a non-current carrying conductor is forcefully brought into a magnetic field, there will be an induced current in that conductor. In both of the phenomenon’s, there is a relation between external stator magnetic field, current (which is coupled with a magnetic field) and force. This relation is directionally determined by Fleming Left Hand rule and Fleming Right Hand rule respectively. See first picture attached.

To further understand, a commutator is not required for a homopolar motor.. see video link https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=54&v=wUqbvHOW6Us and picture of homopolar motor showing force line interaction. This is the principle for my motor as the magnets will constantly be forced at rightangles to the stator magnetic field (see my original pdf of simple motor layout).

Hi Phoneboy, see above video link to see if that explains why it wont lock at 180 degrees.

Thanks

Offline shylo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 11:47:48 AM »
Hi Jim, in that last pic with the battery ,it shows current going into the page on the left ,and coming out of the page on the right. Since the current is flowing in opposite directions the arcs should be opposite no?
artv

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 11:47:48 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline ayeaye

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 01:42:19 PM »
Jim36,

It seems that what you say is true, but it doesn't work for me with permanent magnets, no way.

I put a big cylinder magnet vertical, near my disc, so that both poles were almost the same distance from the edge. Then i put two small cylinder magnets on the disc, sidewise, so that the field lines cross 90 degrees like you showed. There seemed to be more rotation in one direction than the other, which shouldn't be, but i didn't do any measurements. No continuous rotation.

And when i already tried things, i tried to put the magnets on the disc so that their axes were parallel with the disc axes. So the field lines of the rotor and stator magnets were parallel. And weirdly, the effect was even greater, more rotation in one direction, that is. But i didn't measure anything either. And no continuous rotation of course. These things, magnets, are weirder than we think. Whatever understanding we have, it is likely an approximation.

I know that Faraday made a homopolar motor. Why does it exactly work, i don't know, it is a weird thing. Too complex for my simple mind, i prefer to think about simpler things.

Offline Jim36

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 02:46:02 PM »
Hi artv,

The picture shows the red lines produced by the magnetic field passing the current carrying conductor (gold rectangle), the current is the blue arrows within the gold rectangle, the green circles with ‘cross’ and ‘dot’ represent the conductor moving into the picture on the left and out of the picture on the right providing rotation.

Hi Ayeaye,

I don’t think you have the right type of cylinder/tube magnets to do any testing with, these can’t be bought (as far as I know) as I have struggled to find one manufacturer that will attempt to make them.

You’re right, magnets are a weird thing! I don’t think that conventional magnetic theory truly understands the nature of magnetism. I’m quite interested in the Ether / vortex theories as to gain a better understanding.

The homopolar motor principle is ‘relatively’ simple when explained with conventional magnetic theory. I’ll show you what I understand. Take the concept of the circular magnetic field around a wire and how it interacts when inside another permanent magnetic field (1st picture), then take a look at the homopolar motor from a birds eye view (2nd picture) which I’ve drawn to help clarify. I don’t think it’s too complex for your mind, these things just require studying and finding the correct information!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 02:46:02 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline Jim36

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2015, 04:56:55 PM »
Hi Webby1,

Yes, that is the correct concept in respect to producing a permanent circular magnetic field, only with 2 halves this may have some flux leakage which may or may not be a problem. Horse shoe magnets are too large for the job and are not usually circular, though if some small ones could be found (10-20mm dia) these could be used stacked up to produce a cylinder as a trail. Do you know of anything like this on the market? Is there any magnets like this used in technology at present that could be salvaged?

Jim

Offline ayeaye

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2015, 06:17:37 PM »
Jim36,

Ok, i got it. I understood it from your pdf, top view. So it appeared that this is the same i have always talked about, moving by the field lines, just in a slightly different configuration. The asymmetry in your case is that circular field, this is asymmetric in relation to the magnetic field of the pole. Stupid me, i didn't recognize it at once.

Anyway, the design you proposed will not work. Why, because what matters is that one half of the circular field is closer to the pole, then the field lines of the pole move by the field lines of that circular field, N to S. It is not just about a right or left hand rule or anything. That is, one may call it that rule, and it is also true in that case, but the reason why the wire rotates is not because of that rule, it can only be used to illustrate what happens.

So as much as i understand, the big cylinder magnet on the drawing below,  should rotate. The small stator magnet is fixed in place. I hope that you understand my drawing, as i cannot draw very well. I cannot make it, because i have no strong enough bearings, which hold the magnet in place. My processor fan is not good enough for that. I tried though with magnets, the rotating force seems to be there, and seems to be quite strong. Whether strong enough for continuous rotation, again i cannot say. Maybe with good bearings and light magnet it may work.

Why should it work, to explain to the others. Take a single field line out of the north pole of the big magnet. This is radial. It moves N to S, by the field lines of the small (stator) magnet.

Btw, i kind of remember, someone showed me a toroid magnet rotating, holding another magnet near it, when i was a kid. I didn't understand why it rotated, and i'm also not sure whether it really happened, or was it a dream. Most toroid magnets are like cylinder magnets, also poles at flat sides, only a hole at the center.

The problem with bearings with such thing, is that the magnet attracts the bearings, so that they may not work well. I don't know how to solve this, with bearings made of non-magnetic material, or something different.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 09:52:49 PM by ayeaye »

Offline Jim36

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2015, 10:33:51 PM »
Hi Webby,

I found a company in the states that can make it as one hole magnet! Though the material is FeCrCo not neodymium as I would of liked, I need to check the properties of this material.
What is a PMH? I’ve thought about making my own but I would have to find the blank magnetic material to do so.

Hi Ayeaye,

You might be correct, my design might not work and I may have to resort back to a ‘standard’ homopolar design, who knows I will play? The conventional interaction of magnetic fields may be incorrect for homopolar motor?

I understand your design and it could work too, I see what you mean by using a large cylinder / tube magnet so to keep only one half of the magnet in the stator field. Thanks for the additional idea as I had not thought of that one. I don’t think there is a problem with bearings as these type of magnets do not have a field external to the material so the bearings are not attracted.

You may off seen something like that when you were a kid or it could have been a dream? When I spoke to my father about what I’m doing, he claims to have seen something similar years ago (when working as telecoms engineer at a property in the sticks) the guy showed him and said it has been spinning for a few years? These glimpses may give us the ‘energy’ to keep pursuing the goal! 

Jim

Offline ayeaye

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2015, 09:04:10 AM »
I tried it a bit with magnets and my disc, it didn't seem to work. This is not the best device to experiment though, as i cannot hold things in place. If you can make the magnetic field of the stator magnet on my drawing, perfectly circular, then it has the best chance to work, as circular is perfectly asymmetric. It is like a magnet where you can imagine the pole to be anywhere on that circle, and everywhere the field lines are only on one side of that pole. But i doubt that it is possible to achieve so circular field with permanent magnets.

How should this design be named? This could be named a homopolar  magnet motor, but then it would mistakenly thought to be a homopolar motor, as this has a magnet as well. So maybe it's better to name it a one pole magnet motor, to distinguish the two.

I have only used magnets to show overunity, for which they are good. But i have thought that magnets and electromagnets cannot be used for generating any continuous energy. For that i thought the solid state experiments using a coil, such as my "negative discharge effect" experiment, are the way to go, and worth the effort.

I noticed also when hanging a small magnet from a thread, then it started to circle the pole of the big magnet quite intensively. But then i couldn't get any good results when fixing the thread somewhere. It was very difficult to hold the magnet in any one position, when hanging it from a thread. Nice toy though.

But if the one pole magnet motor or such is what you want to try, then good luck. I think then at first you should make a test device, which enables to put the small magnet to different positions.

 

OneLink