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Author Topic: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.  (Read 82032 times)

Offline tak22

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2015, 06:15:06 AM »
I researched the transition speed of gadolinium and found a few things, nothing I could understand.  Does anyone know the speed of the transition from ferromagnetic to non and vice versa?


This paper calculates a 11hz cycle frequency through the Curie Point:

Thermodynamic and Relaxation Processes near Curie Point in Gadolinium
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://arxiv.org/pdf/1404.5648&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=F1gjVYHAA4qGyATUn4HYDw&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=vHS-DOXv9BKOuXBcqCmBDw&usg=AFQjCNEjtHcyVSq7mjAfPwBv0QRuLkTplg

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2015, 06:15:06 AM »

Online synchro1

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2015, 07:17:33 AM »

This paper calculates a 11hz cycle frequency through the Curie Point:

Thermodynamic and Relaxation Processes near Curie Point in Gadolinium
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://arxiv.org/pdf/1404.5648&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=F1gjVYHAA4qGyATUn4HYDw&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=vHS-DOXv9BKOuXBcqCmBDw&usg=AFQjCNEjtHcyVSq7mjAfPwBv0QRuLkTplg

@tak22,

Thanks. Very valuable data! That puts the RPM at around 660, very close to the speed Meir Alfasi appears to be running his hot & cold water prototype in the video. 18 grams is cited as the optimum weight for Gadolinium's maximum transition frequency.

Offline lumen

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2015, 09:24:28 PM »
Looking around at Gadolinium prices it appears you can find it for $100 to $150 per pound.
 
Using just Gadolinium and magnet one might be able to build a room temperature heat engine but not much energy could be converted unless it was very large.
 
On the other hand suppose the design was changed a bit so the rotor was comprised of a few magnets with thin Gadolinium slices to conduct the magnetic field into a coil while attracting the magnets to the coil. Once inline a small current could be applied to the thin Gadolinium to heat it rapidly and become non magnetic.
The operation could provide electrical current to run itself with the environment providing only cooling.

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2015, 09:24:28 PM »
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Online synchro1

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2015, 01:48:01 AM »
Looking around at Gadolinium prices it appears you can find it for $100 to $150 per pound.
 
Using just Gadolinium and magnet one might be able to build a room temperature heat engine but not much energy could be converted unless it was very large.
 
On the other hand suppose the design was changed a bit so the rotor was comprised of a few magnets with thin Gadolinium slices to conduct the magnetic field into a coil while attracting the magnets to the coil. Once inline a small current could be applied to the thin Gadolinium to heat it rapidly and become non magnetic.
The operation could provide electrical current to run itself with the environment providing only cooling.

@lumen,

Heating the Gadolinium slices rapidly with the coil to become magnetic sounds as though it might work alright, but cooling enough to re-grow magnetic from the environment alone may not be rapid enough for the Gadolinium to attract the next rotor magnet.

There's a difference between the adiabatic heating and cooling effect caused by exposure to a permanent field and demagnetization, and heat transfer through induction. The adiabatic temperature change is only in the range of a few degrees in the Gadolinium from PM field exposure, but the effect is nearly instantaneous as the material is forced to do work on the quantum level to sustain it's electron disorder along with cooling, for the opposite reason. This would require that the Gandolinium rotor studs be very close to the Curie point of 68º Fahrenheit in order to lose their magnetic attraction from the few degrees of heat rise from exposure to the PM field. The induction cooling effect from the environment would take much longer then the quantum cooling effect from demagnetization, and slow the rotor speed considerably.

Offline lumen

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2015, 02:14:08 AM »
@lumen,

Heating the Gadolinium slices rapidly with the coil to become magnetic sounds as though it might work alright, but cooling enough to re-grow magnetic from the environment alone may not be rapid enough for the Gadolinium to attract the next rotor magnet.

There's a difference between the adiabatic heating and cooling effect caused by exposure to a permanent field and demagnetization, and heat transfer through induction. The adiabatic temperature change is only in the range of a few degrees in the Gadolinium from PM field exposure, but the effect is nearly instantaneous as the material is forced to do work on the quantum level to sustain it's electron disorder along with cooling, for the opposite reason. This would require that the Gandolinium rotor studs be very close to the Curie point of 68º Fahrenheit in order to lose their magnetic attraction from the few degrees of heat rise from exposure to the PM field. The induction cooling effect from the environment would take much longer then the quantum cooling effect from demagnetization, and slow the rotor speed considerably.

I was thinking to avoid the large mass of Gadolinium studs so the energy involved in changing the temperature would be small.
By adding a coil it appears additional work could be recovered since the Gadolinium could conduct the field into a coil like a core but then vanish to generate power using no additional energy over what would already be required to operate the motor itself in heat.
 
If indeed the temperature of the Gadolinium is raised by the magnetic field which pushes itself closer to becoming non-magnetic, then already exhibits an OU effect. I would have thought that the temperature would drop entering the magnetic field so more heat would be required to become non-magnetic.
 
I suppose that is a critical point! It does look like the effect is greatly enhanced by adding some Copper to the Gadolinium.
 

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2015, 02:14:08 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2015, 03:11:14 AM »
@lumen,

Heating the Gadolinium slices rapidly with the coil to become magnetic sounds as though it might work alright, but cooling enough to re-grow magnetic from the environment alone may not be rapid enough for the Gadolinium to attract the next rotor magnet.

There's a difference between the adiabatic heating and cooling effect caused by exposure to a permanent field and demagnetization, and heat transfer through induction. The adiabatic temperature change is only in the range of a few degrees in the Gadolinium from PM field exposure, but the effect is nearly instantaneous as the material is forced to do work on the quantum level to sustain it's electron disorder along with cooling, for the opposite reason. This would require that the Gandolinium rotor studs be very close to the Curie point of 68º Fahrenheit in order to lose their magnetic attraction from the few degrees of heat rise from exposure to the PM field. The induction cooling effect from the environment would take much longer then the quantum cooling effect from demagnetization, and slow the rotor speed considerably.

Why not have part of the rotor immersed in a pan of water?  Not very deep as it would add drag, but just enough to "shock cool' the thin slices as it turned.  The water could be at room temp. (68 degrees)  It would take that water a long time to heat up above that if the room were held at a constant temp.  If the pan were large, like a sheet cake pan, and made of aluminum, you have a heat sink that would probably continue to work until you need to add more water due to evaporation.

Just a thought.

Bill

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2015, 03:33:55 AM »
This may be a fun experiment, but in the end somebody has to pay the piper for the heat power that is required to run this device.  If for every 100 watts of heat power I can get seven watts of electrical power from a generator output (as a hypothetical example) then it's not too exciting.

Supposing that I use a solar collector to heat up the water to power the generator.  The key question is supposing I replace the solar collector and instead use electricity-generating solar panels to produce electric power directly.  Which method is likely to produce more electrical power per unit of incoming solar power?

Perhaps a more fair comparison would be with a Stirling engine.  For a given amount of heat power, which system can give you more electrical output power from an attached generator, the Stirling engine or the Gadolinium Magnet Generator?  Assume that in both cases the temperature differential is optimized for each device but the available thermal power is the same.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2015, 03:33:55 AM »
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Online synchro1

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2015, 04:24:21 AM »
This may be a fun experiment, but in the end somebody has to pay the piper for the heat power that is required to run this device.  If for every 100 watts of heat power I can get seven watts of electrical power from a generator output (as a hypothetical example) then it's not too exciting.

Supposing that I use a solar collector to heat up the water to power the generator.  The key question is supposing I replace the solar collector and instead use electricity-generating solar panels to produce electric power directly.  Which method is likely to produce more electrical power per unit of incoming solar power?

Perhaps a more fair comparison would be with a Stirling engine.  For a given amount of heat power, which system can give you more electrical output power from an attached generator, the Stirling engine or the Gadolinium Magnet Generator?  Assume that in both cases the temperature differential is optimized for each device but the available thermal power is the same.

@MileHigh,

Suppose we capture the heat from the MCE and return it to the Gadolinium instead running the light bill up?

Offline lumen

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2015, 04:42:48 AM »
This may be a fun experiment, but in the end somebody has to pay the piper for the heat power that is required to run this device.  If for every 100 watts of heat power I can get seven watts of electrical power from a generator output (as a hypothetical example) then it's not too exciting.

Supposing that I use a solar collector to heat up the water to power the generator.  The key question is supposing I replace the solar collector and instead use electricity-generating solar panels to produce electric power directly.  Which method is likely to produce more electrical power per unit of incoming solar power?

Perhaps a more fair comparison would be with a Stirling engine.  For a given amount of heat power, which system can give you more electrical output power from an attached generator, the Stirling engine or the Gadolinium Magnet Generator?  Assume that in both cases the temperature differential is optimized for each device but the available thermal power is the same.

What if it could run at the difference between ambient air and ambient air with evaporative cooling, making both sides of the equation free!
Like drinking bird only possibly greater output!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2015, 04:42:48 AM »
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Offline ekimtoor1

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2015, 01:51:44 PM »
This may be a fun experiment, but in the end somebody has to pay the piper for the heat power that is required to run this device.  If for every 100 watts of heat power I can get seven watts of electrical power from a generator output (as a hypothetical example) then it's not too exciting.

Supposing that I use a solar collector to heat up the water to power the generator.  The key question is supposing I replace the solar collector and instead use electricity-generating solar panels to produce electric power directly.  Which method is likely to produce more electrical power per unit of incoming solar power?

Perhaps a more fair comparison would be with a Stirling engine.  For a given amount of heat power, which system can give you more electrical output power from an attached generator, the Stirling engine or the Gadolinium Magnet Generator?  Assume that in both cases the temperature differential is optimized for each device but the available thermal power is the same.

Is not the piper in this case a bargain since it is the ambient temperature?  At least in this experiment you KNOW where the extra energy is coming from, yes?  And that makes it more legitimate compared to many experiments where energy is coming from some "magic" place that nobody can get to.

But yes, the Stirling comparison, or any other ambient harvesting strategy is a good vet for this. 

Lastly, it's a spinny thing with magnets!   I love them!

Offline memoryman

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2015, 04:48:37 PM »
This will be an interesting material to experiment with; don't expect anything more.
"Is not the piper in this case a bargain since it is the ambient temperature?  At least in this experiment you KNOW where the extra energy is coming from, yes?" indeed, but so do many other devices: Stirling, Nitinol etc. The question is: which one is the most economical? The devices initial cost vs it's output is crucial.

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2015, 04:48:37 PM »
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Online synchro1

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2015, 10:03:25 PM »
Imagine a vertical rotor with gadolinium cylinder studs attached at 90º, in a "T" alignment. The permanent magnets would position at the base on either side of the cylinder ends. This leaves room over the two sides of the cylinder stud for water filled radiator collectors. These would be connected to radiator fins on top and just under the ends of the Gadolinium rotor studs by four tubes, two on each side, to automatically circulate hot water up and cool water down. Simply a standard MCE self loop.   

Online synchro1

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2015, 12:08:20 AM »
The Gadolinium rotor cylinders have to be kept very close to the Curie point of 68.09º to transition to the non magnetic state from the few degrees of temperature rise caused by exposure to the PM field. The magnet cools after leaving the field and should benefit from the radiated heat return coupled with ambient warming. Approaching the magnet field just a bit too cool would cause the rotor to cog.

The "Permanent Magnet" stators can be much thicker diameter axially magnetized neo cylinders. These kinds of magnets can be linked together to achieve sufficient Teslas.  A hair dryer might help get it started up while the radiator fluid heats up. Rotor RPM might be limited to around 600, but the torque would be tremendous. Precise temperature control is a critical factor. Spending money on gadolinium amounts to just another way of investing in precious metal. It should take 1/11th of a second for the Gadolinium rotor cylinders to transition to the non magnetic state inside the PM field.

Offline ekimtoor1

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2015, 01:45:27 AM »
Wouldn't the system find its place on its own?  It's entering the field, warming as it passes thru, cooling and then exiting the field cooler than when it entered. This is key because if it does not behave this way then it's just another dead end.

But if it does work this way, then as has already been pointed out it is inherently OU.

Correct me if I'm wrong - exposing gadolinium to a magnetic field causes it to heat. That in itself is OU is it not?

Offline lumen

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Re: Gadolinium Magnet Generator.
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2015, 02:25:01 AM »
Wouldn't the system find its place on its own?  It's entering the field, warming as it passes thru, cooling and then exiting the field cooler than when it entered. This is key because if it does not behave this way then it's just another dead end.

But if it does work this way, then as has already been pointed out it is inherently OU.

Correct me if I'm wrong - exposing gadolinium to a magnetic field causes it to heat. That in itself is OU is it not?

One might think that because the heating is already applied in the correct direction to the curie point. But then some heat will get lost and when it leaves the magnetic field it will drop to a colder temperature and attract back to the magnet.
Spacing thin sheets could reduce the mass and required heat to make the change while increasing the magnetic attraction.
Like a stack of washers spaced apart has greater attraction than when held together as a solid.

 

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