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(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
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Author Topic: MEMM  (Read 64902 times)

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2006, 12:36:56 AM »
Hi Paul,
Latest update of parts ordered:

10 x ceramic magnets 50mm x 19mm x 10mm
4 x ceramic magnets 50mm x 19mm x 5mm

The gap in the AMC-320 core  is 35.5mm, so I will use 2 x 10mm (two outer) and 3 x 5mm (in middle).

I can have magnets cut from tiles but the machine setup cost of 38 GBP means I will test with the 19mm wide magnets first then look at fine tuning when things start to look promising.

I want to start the testing of the pulse circuit next on breadboard before I commit it to a pcb artwork.
I need to work out the timing capacitors for the 6 way switch on the pulse unit, (bit of trial and error I think), as the ranges need to overlap just slightly.
Aiming for 100Hz to 100Khz (maybe I should have ordered a 12 way switch now).

Regards

Rob

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MEMM
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2006, 12:36:56 AM »

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2006, 06:10:46 PM »
Rob,

Sounds good. I commend your professionalism. I wanted to add a side note for those people who do not have much money to spend that anyone can build the MEG on a shoestring. I'm the master of shoestring experiments, lol.

I'm discovering some really interesting effects with such nanocrystalline cores such as Metglas. From the BH graphs provided by Metglas we can see it requires very little transverse fields to saturate the core. A transverse field is not a longitudinal field. The toroids coil causes a longitudinal field. Although any stray field such as Earths magnetic field is considered a transverse field. Earths 0.5 Oe field is enough to saturate the Metglas core. Such transverse fields could cause undesirable effects in the MEG. Perhaps one solution is to encase the MEG core inside a relatively thick iron round enclosure. Another possible issue is radio waves. Any radio wave could cause similar problems. Unfortunately a big chunk of iron is not going to block magnetic fields above a few KHz-- a few hundred KHz more realistically.

Such problems are causing havoc on my MCE experiments. One moment I can measure strong MCE, but the next it's completely gone because the core snaps back into saturation caused by stray fields. As mentioned in my previous post, it is vitally important to completely degauss the core in order to perform the MCE experiment. Especially with cores that have high squareness such as Metglas cores.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2006, 02:31:59 PM »
Hi MrAmos,
I have a lot of diffent pic chips and an ICE-Breaker development board and Microchips PICkit 2 Development Programmer/Debugger.
Its sorting out the program to generate the pulses using the interupt timers that will take time.
Also I worked out the steps are going to get a bit lumpy at the high end of 100Khz even using a 20MHz chip.
I may go down that route later on.

Hi Paul,
Yes I wound about 40 turns onto the AMC-320 core and hooked up to my new LCR meter, and I noticed that when I rotated the core slowly around on the worktop the Q value and inductanced changed slightly by about +/- 2%.  Very odd to see this happening.
I can do the test again and give you the actual values.
Meter uses 1Khz and 120Hz for its reading.

Regards

Rob



 

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2006, 02:31:59 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2006, 03:53:31 PM »
Hi Rob,

Wow, + and - 2% is lot for just changing the cores orientation relative to the external fields. And that's not even removing the stray field, just changing orientation. These nanocrystalline cores are amazing! Now if you had a large piece of iron, perhaps even silicon iron, that could _completely_ surround the Metglas core. I'm wondering how much that could help. Your Metglas core is large, so the iron core would have to be huge. Not sure how effective such a huge iron core would be at 1 KHz much less 30 KHz, but it's worth a try.

Personally I wouldn't bother with it for now. I'm thinking that if for some reason you are still unable to precisely replicate Naudin's scope shots then it might help to find a material capable of removing stray fields.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2006, 10:50:49 PM »
I've been using a method in an attempt to eliminate stray DC magnetic fields. I have two large toroids. One is silicon iron and the other I have no idea. These two toroids are stacked on top each other. I then place my Metglas core inside the two toroids.


The above will momentarily work, but it has problems. I took a compass and placed it inside the staked toroids. I then rotated the compass and notice it did not change. The toroids were blocked the Earths magnetic fields, which is in agreement with FEMM. This works fine if your toroids are degaussed. I then placed my toroids near a PM simply to slightly magnetize the toroids. I then removed the PM far away and repeated the experiment. This time when the compass changed to fixed direction when placed inside the toroids. This meant the toroids were applying a magnetic field on the compass.

This could momentarily block DC magnetic fields if you degauss the toroids, but any stray field could re-magnetize the toroid.

That covers DC fields. AC fields is another story. I'm thinking a small Faraday cage could block most AC fields. The Faraday cage needs to be non-magnetic wire. Any magnetic wire such as iron causes too much induction. Copper wire should work. Also the toroids need to be away from the Faraday cage walls.  Since I live in Los Angeles, CA. there's a lot of radio ways at just about any frequency. We know the Metglas cores are affected to fields in the MHz.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MEMM
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2006, 10:50:49 PM »
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Offline MeggerMan

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2006, 11:07:57 PM »
Hi Paul,
Sorry, don't get too excited yet, it looks like the meter takes time to give an accurate reading.
I tried it again and it is not conclusive, in fact placing a ceramic magnet into the core has little effect on the inductance and Q value.
I placed the core onto a 1' cube polystyrene block in the middle of the kitchen floor away from metal objects and found that even after waiting for the meter to settle the reading barely changed when the core was rotated though the 360 deg.


They are as follows:

Inductance = 11.04mH
Q value = 42.0

Coil = 42 turns of 0.56mm enamelled copper wire wound on the middle on one of the "C" halves.

Things may look different when the core is operating at 25kHz.

Regards

Rob

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2006, 11:54:17 PM »
Rob,

That's why I was surprised that simply changing the orientation changed the inductance that much. A few percent sounded like a lot from just simply rotating, but whatever. :-) Rotating just changes the transverse alignment, but the Earths and stray fields are still there. Now you say it _barely_ changes ... that's fine. I have been focusing on nulling out Earths magnetic field and stray radio fields. They do indeed make a difference when performing the MCE experiment. :-(

Regards,
Paul Lowrance

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MEMM
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2006, 11:54:17 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2006, 12:09:47 AM »
Quote from: kingrs
I tried it again and it is not conclusive, in fact placing a ceramic magnet into the core has little effect on the inductance and Q value.

Rob,

If that's your final conclusion then there must be something wrong with your meter. I don't think there's a core on Earth that remains unchanged by placing a magnet on it.

I'm curious what the problem is.

Regard,
Paul

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2006, 12:40:23 AM »
Rob,

I had a thought why you are getting varying results.  As previously stated many times, these Metglas cores have square BH curves. Also the cores require very little stray fields to saturate. I've seen even slight 60 Hz stray fields cause the core to saturate. Once the core is saturated then it doesn't matter if you remove all the stray fields-- the core remains saturated unless you degauss it. The Metglas BH graphs show the proof how sensitive these cores are to transverse fields. BTW, my metglas core is more sensitive to transverse fields than yours ... lucky me.

If your core is already saturated then that could easily explain why even a PM has less affect on inductance. I have been fighting with these Metglas cores for several weeks now. They are so pernickety it's a nightmare as far as MCE experiments go. As far as inductance measurements ... I'll leave that task up to you. ;-)


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MEMM
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2006, 12:40:23 AM »
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Offline MeggerMan

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2006, 11:34:11 PM »
Hi Paul,
The Ceramic magnets have now arrived, and they are a perfect sliding fit, a single turn of pvc tape around the center magnet and they form a tight fit.
I did a re-test on the meter and it looks as if it may be the pvc tape binding the core is relaxing, so this may explain the gradual changes.
Certainly placing a magnet in the core is now changing the Q and inductance.

Q ValueInductance mHMag CentreMag on Leg39.111.75NN38.510.73YN36.011.25NY

"Mag on leg" means the magnet stack is attached to the left leg pointing in towards the core centre.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/DSCN4765.jpg)

Regards

Rob

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2006, 03:48:38 PM »
Hi Rob,

Nice picture!

Surely you are tired of the induction measurements, but if by chance you already know, how much current peak-peak did your induction meter generate while measuring your Metglas core?

I'm wondering if there are induction meters that first attempt to degauss the inductor before measuring the inductance?  Metglas cores are highly unusual in that -->

1. They saturate at practically no applied energy. I wouldn't be surprised if they saturate from a person sneezing. ;-)
2. There permeability is so intensely high that it would require the induction meter to apply very low amount of AC current. Otherwise the meter is just saturating the core. The meter will still report induction even if the core saturates because of the materials high permeability during magnetic flip while measuring inductance.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MEMM
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2006, 03:48:38 PM »
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2006, 06:37:15 PM »
Are there any lower priced and more readily available suitable lower permeability alternatives to Metglas cores available in the UK?

Regards
Hoppy




Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #102 on: November 16, 2006, 07:48:25 PM »
Well, Naudin did a cheap silicon iron version, but I showed errors in his interpretation of the scope shots.  Surely it's possible to get "free energy" from silicon iron, but it seems very difficult and not sure the present MEG design can do it.

The Metglas MEG is another story. Unless Naudin faked the Metglas MEG scope shots it shows "free energy," but according to the theory the timing and everything has to be just right.  It's unknown just precisely how critical everything is.  Hopefully Rob will find out, especially if he can get in contact with Naudin. :-)


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2006, 12:25:41 AM »
Hi,
No reply from Naudin :O(

The core can be ordered from the Elna magnetics in the US, for about ?100 for the AMC-320.
Still waiting to see if I can avoid the import duty of an extra ?20 with FedEx because it is a sample core for testing.

I will see what I can find out about the LCR meter but I would imagine the power is going to be very very low or the PP3 9V battery will not last very long.
I could use a second meter to measure the current draw off the supply battery.

Regards

Rob

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: MEMM
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2006, 07:26:02 PM »
I wonder what happened to Naudin.


Rob, I just noticed your avatar pic.  Very nice!  Did you just change it?


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

 

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