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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: vineet_kiran on March 07, 2015, 01:57:05 PM

Title: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 07, 2015, 01:57:05 PM

Video at :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjlBXQ9ViEc&feature=youtu.be


1) Sorry for the quality of experiment.  I have used available junk materials.

2) Since I have used short pendulum arm,  the magnet arm (pendulum) is moving very fast and I am unable to  synchronize the movement 
    of shield with it by hand.  Hence pendulum is stopping in between.

3) If you use lengthy pendulum arm with strong magnets,  the arm moves through a longer distance and you will get    enough time to
    move the shield.

4) Since the shield is thin I have used a biasing magnet of opposite pole on the shield to absorb the flux of  stationary magnet.


Hope you will enjoy.


Earlier thread at http://www.overunity.com/11994/magnetic-engine/





Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 07, 2015, 04:38:45 PM
Great work VK!!

This shows ( at least in appearance) to verify the working principal.

looking forward to further experiments from you on this subject.
mechanical linkage to synchronize the actions would be advantageous.
so you're not doing it by hand.

good job,

              Sm0ky2
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 08, 2015, 02:32:37 AM
Nice video.  I am impressed with how well this concept works.  I am also surprised.

I too am looking forward to watching your progress.

Bill
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 08, 2015, 05:53:59 AM
Sm0ky2, pirate88179, thanks for your comments.  Making mechanical transmission is a difficult task which requires some acuurate
fabrication work and it is beyond my scope.
 
Meanwhile for anybody trying that experiment, my suggestion is, keep the moving magnet as weak as possible and make the fixed magnet very strong so that when weak magnet comes near the fixed repelling magnet, there will not be much variation in density of flux with respect to the shield.  You will get the required effective force between magnets because magnetic force depends on product of strength of both poles.
 
If moving magnet is stronger, then it causes greater variation in flux density with respect to the shield which in turn tries to hold the shield in the region of stronger flux density and you will experience a strong force while moving the shield.

 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: superhero on March 09, 2015, 06:28:42 AM
Why don't you seek assistance  from kick starter or quirky crowd funding sites.  you maybe able to further research and development to Materialize this concept.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: shylo on March 09, 2015, 11:27:57 PM
There is enough drag just by introducing magnets, Don't add to it with mechanical( physical) connections.
It's like a flow that intensifies , control the flow , start small ,increase, then release.
If you can loop a mag track, is that perpetual motion? The track will wear out, and how long will the magnet last?
artv
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 10, 2015, 02:35:08 AM
There is enough drag just by introducing magnets, Don't add to it with mechanical( physical) connections.
It's like a flow that intensifies , control the flow , start small ,increase, then release.
If you can loop a mag track, is that perpetual motion? The track will wear out, and how long will the magnet last?
artv

There is no drag in the setup because shield is moving parallel to the pole on the surface of pole experiencing uniform flux throughout its path. There is only frictional force between moving ball and magnet's surface. This frictional force is very less
because of 'point contact' of ball with the magnet which can be further reduced by lubricating the surface.

The question here is not really perpetual motion but it is about overunity.  Is output enrgy more than supplied input energy?
To know the answer we have to make proper measurements.
 
If you conduct this experiment you will feel that you will not experience much force on your hand but the oscillating magnet
developes considerable energy due to repulsion.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 10, 2015, 02:37:11 AM
deleted double post
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 10, 2015, 02:48:17 AM

There is no drag in the setup because shield is moving parallel to the pole on the surface of pole experiencing uniform flux throughout its path. There is only frictional force between moving ball and magnet's surface. This frictional force is very less
because of 'point contact' of ball with the magnet which can be further reduced by lubricating the surface.

The question here is not really perpetual motion but it is about overunity.  Is output enrgy more than supplied input energy?
To know the answer we have to make proper measurements.
 
If you conduct this experiment you will feel that you will not experience much force on your hand but the oscillating magnet
developes considerable energy due to repulsion.

I am very impressed with your experiment.  Normally, when I see "Mr Hand" come into play, I dismiss whatever is being attempted to be shown.  However, in your video, it makes one think that possibly  (I said possibly) one might be able to create a device that slides that plate in and out of the field in correct timing.  Maybe there is something here, maybe not but, your video really makes one think about the possibilities.

I am glad I was able to watch it.

Bill
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 24, 2015, 04:35:40 AM

http://contest.techbriefs.com/2015/entries/sustainable-technologies/5152


Anybody liking this experiment can vote for it!
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: TinselKoala on March 24, 2015, 06:10:49 AM
You are putting in a small amount of mechanical energy each cycle with your hand. When properly timed to the pendulum swing, some of this energy is stored in the mechanical resonance of the system and the amplitude of the swing can build up. You cannot continuously extract any more energy than you are continuously applying with your hand or the resonance and the amplitude will collapse. You are also experiencing losses due to friction and eddy current heating in the moving "shield", so with each cycle, the actual energy delivered to the pendulum is less than the energy you are applying with your hand during each cycle. This means that the system cannot be self-looped with no outside source of energy aiding the looping. It is true that you can extract all the energy stored in the pendulum at once, and this will be higher than the energy of a single input cycle of the hand moving the shield. Power is not energy and especially, peak power is not energy.

The general problem with magnetic "shields" is that they are strongly attracted to the magnet being "shielded". This means it requires work to move the shield into and out of the shielding position. Since the shields are also almost always metallic and electrical conductors, they will experience eddy currents and energy loss due to Joule heating with every movement of the shield.

Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 24, 2015, 11:55:39 AM
Video at :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjlBXQ9ViEc&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjlBXQ9ViEc&feature=youtu.be)


1) Sorry for the quality of experiment.  I have used available junk materials.

2) Since I have used short pendulum arm,  the magnet arm (pendulum) is moving very fast and I am unable to  synchronize the movement 
    of shield with it by hand.  Hence pendulum is stopping in between.

3) If you use lengthy pendulum arm with strong magnets,  the arm moves through a longer distance and you will get    enough time to
    move the shield.

4) Since the shield is thin I have used a biasing magnet of opposite pole on the shield to absorb the flux of  stationary magnet.


Hope you will enjoy.


Earlier thread at http://www.overunity.com/11994/magnetic-engine/ (http://www.overunity.com/11994/magnetic-engine/)
This principle isn't sustainable without input work.
The pendulum magnet approach because it is attracted to the steel. So therfor you must spend the same amount of force to remove (Force * remove = energy) the steel so the stator magnet can have more influence on the pendulum magnet. The energy causing the pendulum magnet and the steel plate to move is exact equal and opposite. No excess energy. It's not an assumption, but I know this from measuring experiments - which also happens to be correct in simulations as well.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 24, 2015, 12:13:44 PM
You are putting in a small amount of mechanical energy each cycle with your hand. When properly timed to the pendulum swing, some of this energy is stored in the mechanical resonance of the system and the amplitude of the swing can build up.

This explanation  is very well applicable for a normal mechanical pendulum executing simple hormonic motion. The magnetic pendulum used in the experiment doesnot work like a simple pendulum.  Its amplitude simply depends on the repulsive force experienced from fixed magnet.  I have made it like pendulum because building piston and flywheel arrangement is difficult for me.  As you can see from the video, its amplitude rises within 2-3 movements of the shield because when pendulum comes closer and closer to the fixed magnet,  it experiences greater and greater force since magnetic force is inversely proportional to square of the distance between poles and directly proportionalto product of strength of poles.

You cannot continuously extract any more energy than you are continuously applying with your hand or the resonance and the amplitude will collapse.

Amplitude of pendulum is collapsing in that experiment is only because of miss-timing. When pendulum moves towards fixed magnet, it should not experience repelling force (shield should cover the fixed magnet). If it experiences repelling force then its momentum and energy will be damped and it comes to halt. Shield should open only when pendulum comes to a predetermined closer position. Since I am operating the shield by hand and pendulum is moving very fast, I am unable to corrrectly time the movement of shield hence the pendulum is stopping.
 
You are also experiencing losses due to friction and eddy current heating in the moving "shield", so with each cycle, the actual energy delivered to the pendulum is less than the energy you are applying with your hand during each cycle. This means that the system cannot be self-looped with no outside source of energy aiding the looping. It is true that you can extract all the energy stored in the pendulum at once, and this will be higher than the energy of a single input cycle of the hand moving the shield. Power is not energy and especially, peak power is not energy.

This can be easily verified by keeping the magnet vertical and keeping a weight on shield. When shield moves down magnet deflects (repells) the pendulum mass (hence weight) to some height above its mean position.  By comparing the weight and height of deflection of pendulum  with weight and height of shield movement you can easily know the input and output energy in each cycle without considering power because time remains the same.

 
The general problem with magnetic "shields" is that they are strongly attracted to the magnet being "shielded". This means it requires work to move the shield into and out of the shielding position. Since the shields are also almost always metallic and electrical conductors, they will experience eddy currents and energy loss due to Joule heating with every movement of the shield.

Even if the shield is attracted strongly towards the magnet, it can be moved easily over the magnet by using steel ball roller since ball is held to the magnet by point contact. Frictional force depends on area of contact and also coefficient of friction between the contact surfaces.  You will experience it if you conduct the experiment.
 
Eddy currents and joule heating lossess are negligible at lower speeds and it is possible to operate this system at lower speeds and get higher energy output.
 
Thanks for applying thought on this experiment.
 
Regards,
 
Vineet.K.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 24, 2015, 01:08:14 PM
@Vineet,


You can make this experiment completely "hands free", and very simple.


On the pendulum rod close to the hub you can place a shield that covers the fixed magnet when the pendulum magnet is farthest away. This will cause this magnet to approach the fixed magnet again.
If the pendulum increase flucuations by itself (What I strongly believe will not) you have proved your design.


Experiments done without any external influence will always be the most reilable ones. Then you will take away any possible doubt.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 24, 2015, 02:26:32 PM
This principle isn't sustainable without input work.
The pendulum magnet approach because it is attracted to the steel. So therfor you must spend the same amount of force to remove (Force * remove = energy) the steel so the stator magnet can have more influence on the pendulum magnet. The energy causing the pendulum magnet and the steel plate to move is exact equal and opposite. No excess energy. It's not an assumption, but I know this from measuring experiments - which also happens to be correct in simulations as well.
Vidar

Observe the video closely.  Pendulum is not attracted by the shield.  When you cover the fixed magnet with shield, it (shield) cuts off the repelling flux with respect to pendulum hence the pendulum falls towards its mean position by gravity and moves further towards fixed magnet due to its momentum. At this point if shield is moved exposing the fixed magnet, pendulum will again get repelled away.
 
I have suggested the following points to eliminate the same problem :

1) Keep the fixed magnet very strong and moving magnet considerably weak because a weak magnet cannot get attracted
   towards shield from far distance.
 
2) Maintain some minimum distance betwee fixed magnet and pendulum magnet because when weak pendulummagnet comes closer
    to the fixed magnet (at maintained minimum distance)  it will not create much change in density of flux with  respect to shield 
    because  shield will be moving on a strong magnet and in a plane parallel to the pole of magnet.
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 24, 2015, 02:29:47 PM
@Vineet,

You can make this experiment completely "hands free", and very simple.

On the pendulum rod close to the hub you can place a shield that covers the fixed magnet when the pendulum magnet is farthest away. This will cause this magnet to approach the fixed magnet again.
If the pendulum increase flucuations by itself (What I strongly believe will not) you have proved your design.

Experiments done without any external influence will always be the most reilable ones. Then you will take away any possible doubt.

Vidar

If you keep the shield fixed on hub,  at some point the attractive force between shield and strong fixed magnet will come in equilibrium with  repelling force of pendulum magnet and fixed magnet. It will not work.

You can keep a sliding shield on pendulum magnet which slides up or down when pendulum  comes closer to the fixed magnet.  In that case you have to make pendulum magnet very strong and fixed magnet very weak.  It is a complicated mechanism and I cannot do that.

This is a simple experiment without involving any cost. Why don't you build it as it is and verify it?

 
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 24, 2015, 02:51:25 PM

There is no drag in the setup because shield is moving parallel to the pole on the surface of pole experiencing uniform flux throughout its path. There is only frictional force between moving ball and magnet's surface. This frictional force is very less
because of 'point contact' of ball with the magnet which can be further reduced by lubricating the surface.
If for some strange reason you were unable to detect the drag with your hands, then you should know that is not true.  Instead of using your hands, you can use a weight on a thread that goes over a pulley as the source of force to move the shield.  You can substitute unmagnetized iron or steel bars for the magnet and see how fast a weight pulls the shield to one side, and then repeat first with the magnet restored, and then with both the magnet and the pendulum.
Quote

The question here is not really perpetual motion but it is about overunity.  Is output enrgy more than supplied input energy?
What do you think in that demonstration suggests overunity?
Quote
To know the answer we have to make proper measurements.
 
If you conduct this experiment you will feel that you will not experience much force on your hand but the oscillating magnet
developes considerable energy due to repulsion.
Why are you comparing force to energy?
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 24, 2015, 02:53:41 PM

Observe the video closely.  Pendulum is not attracted by the shield.  When you cover the fixed magnet with shield, it (shield) cuts off the repelling flux with respect to pendulum hence the pendulum falls towards its mean position by gravity and moves further towards fixed magnet due to its momentum. At this point if shield is moved exposing the fixed magnet, pendulum will again get repelled away.
 
I have suggested the following points to eliminate the same problem :

1) Keep the fixed magnet very strong and moving magnet considerably weak because a weak magnet cannot get attracted
   towards shield from far distance.
 
2) Maintain some minimum distance betwee fixed magnet and pendulum magnet because when weak pendulummagnet comes closer
    to the fixed magnet (at maintained minimum distance)  it will not create much change in density of flux with  respect to shield 
    because  shield will be moving on a strong magnet and in a plane parallel to the pole of magnet.
Changing the reluctance gap of any magnet exchanges work.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 24, 2015, 03:23:20 PM

Observe the video closely.  Pendulum is not attracted by the shield.  When you cover the fixed magnet with shield, it (shield) cuts off the repelling flux with respect to pendulum hence the pendulum falls towards its mean position by gravity and moves further towards fixed magnet due to its momentum. At this point if shield is moved exposing the fixed magnet, pendulum will again get repelled away.
 
I have suggested the following points to eliminate the same problem :

1) Keep the fixed magnet very strong and moving magnet considerably weak because a weak magnet cannot get attracted
   towards shield from far distance.
 
2) Maintain some minimum distance betwee fixed magnet and pendulum magnet because when weak pendulummagnet comes closer
    to the fixed magnet (at maintained minimum distance)  it will not create much change in density of flux with  respect to shield 
    because  shield will be moving on a strong magnet and in a plane parallel to the pole of magnet.
The magnet is attracted by the shield, but the fixed magnet is repelling. The combination makes the repelling force weaker.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 24, 2015, 04:03:18 PM
If for some strange reason you were unable to detect the drag with your hands, then you should know that is not true.  Instead of using your hands, you can use a weight on a thread that goes over a pulley as the source of force to move the shield.  You can substitute unmagnetized iron or steel bars for the magnet and see how fast a weight pulls the shield to one side, and then repeat first with the magnet restored, and then with both the magnet and the pendulum.

I am not talking about friction drag.  When you keep two repelling poles close to each other and hold a shielding plate just above the gap, the shield will be pulled into the gap between two poles with tremendous force. If this drag is present in magnetic engine then your input energy will be equal to or more than output energy. You have to arrange things so as to eliminate this drag.  I am telling this drag is not present in the above setup.  Friction drag is also negligible due to point contact which I feel while conducting the experiment.  You will also feel it if you conduct the experiment.
 
I know that energy transfer involved is diferent in the above three circumstances said by you.
 

What do you think in that demonstration suggests overunity?
Free movement of shield (input) and tremendous energy gained by pendulum (output) due to repulsion shows overunity.
 

Why are you comparing force to energy?
I am not comparing force to energy.  When you experience less force on your hand, it means that Force X distance moved by shield = work input is less.   Whereas output energy is high due to strong repulsion between magnets.
 
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 24, 2015, 04:04:52 PM
Changing the reluctance gap of any magnet exchanges work.

Can you please explain what this has to do with the experiment?
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 24, 2015, 04:07:00 PM
The magnet is attracted by the shield, but the fixed magnet is repelling. The combination makes the repelling force weaker.

Vidar

Fixed magnet will not repel the pendulum if it is totally covered by the shield. That is the basic idea of using the shield.  Even if stray flux escapes out of the shield and repels pendulum, it is not of any concern because this force will be neglible.
 
 
I don't know whether you people are trying to test my knowledge or showing your ignorance. (foolishness?)
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 24, 2015, 04:32:05 PM

Fixed magnet will not repel the pendulum if it is totally covered by the shield. That is the basic idea of using the shield.  Even if stray flux escapes out of the shield and repels pendulum, it is not of any concern because this force will be neglible.
 
 
I don't know whether you people are trying to test my knowledge or showing your ignorance. (foolishness?)
You cannot shield magnetism, but you can make it take another path. In this case, parts of the magnetisn from the fixed magnet takes a short cut through the steel plate and directly back to the magnet again, so less magnetic field is repelling the pendulum magnet. The pendulum magnet also "see" this steel plate and will attract to it. Since the magnetic field is only partially guided through the steel plate, there is still surrounding field that still repels. There is not parallell magnetic flux between the magnet when they repel.
While the pendulum magnet and the fixed magnet is closer, there is now more magnetic flux goung through the steel plate, so it will take force to guide this steel plate away from the gap between those magnets. When you start removing the steel plate, the force will result in energy loss - force * distance is energy.
On the contrary, if the magnets was attracting, it would be more parallell magnetic "lines" between the magnets. If the steel plate was placed exactly in the middle between these magnets, it would take less effort to remove the steel plate. In fact, the steel plate would then repel from the magnets when it is outside the gap between the magnets - considered that those magnets keeps the gap.


I know this by experiments. I will shortly put a video on youtube demonstrating this. So you'll learn how magnetism work in your design.


Vidar.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 24, 2015, 07:33:47 PM

Can you please explain what this has to do with the experiment?
You perform work moving your "shield". 

The nerves in your hands should be telling you that it is harder to move your "shield" back and forth when there is a stack of magnets on one side of the ball than a similar sized block of unmagnetized metal.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 24, 2015, 10:18:06 PM
Here is a video. Simple experiment showing that iron will be "hard" to pull away from the field between two opposing magnets.
This will take energy by the same amount as the gain in the pendulum magnet. However, I did not make the pendulum magnet, just two opposing magnets I try to remove the shield away from.


http://youtu.be/bcQfMGakGQc (http://youtu.be/bcQfMGakGQc)


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 24, 2015, 11:01:43 PM

This is a simple experiment without involving any cost. Why don't you build it as it is and verify it?
I can try. I have most of the hardware and tools to make one - just for educational purpose. The video above is highly simplyfied.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 25, 2015, 01:31:55 AM
You perform work moving your "shield". 

The nerves in your hands should be telling you that it is harder to move your "shield" back and forth when there is a stack of magnets on one side of the ball than a similar sized block of unmagnetized metal.

My nerves are not telling me anything and if you try it your  nerves also will not tell   anything because you are not removing the shield out of the pole.  I am moving the shield within the surface of the pole without subjecting it to change in flux concentration.
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 25, 2015, 01:35:45 AM
Here is a video. Simple experiment showing that iron will be "hard" to pull away from the field between two opposing magnets.
This will take energy by the same amount as the gain in the pendulum magnet. However, I did not make the pendulum magnet, just two opposing magnets I try to remove the shield away from.

http://youtu.be/bcQfMGakGQc (http://youtu.be/bcQfMGakGQc)

 
Vidar Sir,
 
You are trying too hard to disprove my expreiment but out of the way!
 
Several times I have mentioned that you have to use a lengthy magnet having poles on faces and whether ball or shield has to move in a parallel plane on the lenghty magnet within the pole so that it will not be subjected to change in flux concentration.
 
If you try to move the steel or ball away from the pole of magnet it will naturally experience dragging force towards pole because pole will have maximum flux concentration.  What is strange in that?

After confirming the experiment only I have posted the experiment and you can see from the video that it is working fine. if not 
I would not have posted that experiment or myself would have told that it will not work.

I don't have any idea of misguiding or giving wrong information.

My request is please try the experiment as it is and if possible use a thicker shield.  You will get amazing results.

Wish you good luck!
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 25, 2015, 02:45:00 AM
I can try. I have most of the hardware and tools to make one - just for educational purpose. The video above is highly simplyfied.


Vidar

Vidar:

For God's sake, please be careful...we all saw what happened to your garage when you experimented with the famous "Lead Out" unbalanced wheel theory.  I doubt that your insurance company will cover any additional damage..ha ha.

Bill
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 25, 2015, 04:23:04 AM

My nerves are not telling me anything and if you try it your  nerves also will not tell   anything because you are not removing the shield out of the pole.  I am moving the shield within the surface of the pole without subjecting it to change in flux concentration.
If the flux did not redistribute therefore changing its concentration then there would be no effect on the pendulum.  Would you like to try a different tall tale?
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 25, 2015, 04:45:27 AM
If the flux did not redistribute therefore changing its concentration then there would be no effect on the pendulum.  Would you like to try a different tall tale?

Flux get redistributed with respect to the pendulum not with respect to the shield (or it will not have effect on the shield) because shield is moving in parallel plane on a lengthy magnet with all its points equi-distant from the pole.
 
There is lot of difference between rowing a boat on water and pushing the boat deep down into water.
 
Why don't you understand?
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 25, 2015, 06:13:13 AM

Flux get redistributed with respect to the pendulum not with respect to the shield (or it will not have effect on the shield) because shield is moving in parallel plane on a lengthy magnet with all its points equi-distant from the pole.
 
There is lot of difference between rowing a boat on water and pushing the boat deep down into water.
 
Why don't you understand?
No matter how long you make the magnet, the magnetic lines are not orthogonal especially close to one of the poles.  The flux through the shield varies with position and work is therefore exchanged changing its position.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 25, 2015, 06:36:04 AM

Flux get redistributed with respect to the pendulum not with respect to the shield (or it will not have effect on the shield) because shield is moving in parallel plane on a lengthy magnet with all its points equi-distant from the pole.
 
There is lot of difference between rowing a boat on water and pushing the boat deep down into water.
 
Why don't you understand?
It is YOU that don't understand, or don't want to understand.
The shield have deep influence on the magnetic flux - how the flux orient itself in precense of the shield. The shield is magnetic.
If the shield was very very long and you shielded with the center of it, it would not have much influence on the force needed to move the shield back and forth becaus the flux density woult literally be the same on each side of the shields center.
However, as soon the end of the shield approach the magnet, the flux behaviour start to change as you continue to move the shield. Energy must be spent to remove the shield completely.


I will make a video showing this so there will be no doubt what's going on.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 25, 2015, 08:15:42 AM
Unless Vineet is the victim of some terrible condition that has cost him all the feeling in his hand, he knows that he is exchanging work when he moves the shield.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 25, 2015, 08:47:30 AM
Unless Vineet is the victim of some terrible condition that has cost him all the feeling in his hand, he knows that he is exchanging work when he moves the shield.

 
Let Vidar make the video then we will know who has lost his mind due to prejudice.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 25, 2015, 10:27:40 AM

 
Let Vidar make the video then we will know who has lost his mind due to prejudice.
It is simple physics which Low-Q (Vidar) has already demonstrated in a video.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 25, 2015, 10:50:46 AM
It is simple physics which Low-Q (Vidar) has already demonstrated in a video.

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQYEzIhTqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQYEzIhTqU)
 
 
What I have demonstrated in that video, is it not physics?
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 25, 2015, 01:06:10 PM

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQYEzIhTqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQYEzIhTqU)
 
 
What I have demonstrated in that video, is it not physics?
You demonstrated the falsity of your own claims rather nicely.  It is obvious in the video that you had to exert work to move the iron bar back and forth.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 25, 2015, 01:25:38 PM
You demonstrated the falsity of your own claims rather nicely.  It is obvious in the video that you had to exert work to move the iron bar back and forth.

How much work? As you can see the shield is moving smoothly on strong magnet because of steel ball rolling beneath the shield.
Why don't you do it yourself and see?
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 25, 2015, 02:20:44 PM

How much work? As you can see the shield is moving smoothly on strong magnet because of steel ball rolling beneath the shield.
Why don't you do it yourself and see?
You exert more work than you will ever recover.  I have already seen.  Don't you understand Low-Q's video?
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 25, 2015, 02:54:43 PM
You exert more work than you will ever recover.  I have already seen.  Don't you understand Low-Q's video?

I have correctly understood Low-Q's video and replied on it before.  You are not understanding things properly.  Anyway let us wait and see how Vidar builds the engine.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 25, 2015, 03:04:12 PM

I have correctly understood Low-Q's video and replied on it before.  You are not understanding things properly.  Anyway let us wait and see how Vidar builds the engine.
Low-Q and I have both explained your misconceptions.  Do you think that a variable reluctance machine is something new?  VR machines have been around for over 100 years.  They are well-studied, well-understood, and all under unity.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 25, 2015, 03:31:43 PM

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQYEzIhTqU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOQYEzIhTqU)
 
 
What I have demonstrated in that video, is it not physics?
Your video might be some sort og "psysics" (combination of physical and psycological). Since you have no accurate stress sensor or gauge in your hands, it is possible you have overrated your own experiment.
Experiments done by hand is impossible to make any accurate conclusions from.


Vidar

Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 25, 2015, 03:49:21 PM
Your video might be some sort og "psysics" (combination of physical and psycological). Since you have no accurate stress sensor or gauge in your hands, it is possible you have overrated your own experiment.
Experiments done by hand is impossible to make any accurate conclusions from.


Vidar


OK!  You build the engine as it is using physics only!  If you think that using hand is unethical, make it automatic using a drop cam,  keeping the fixed magnet and shield vertical.   The entire system has to be correctly synchronized.

Here is the details of a drop cam :
 
http://www.technologystudent.com/cams/snail1.htm (http://www.technologystudent.com/cams/snail1.htm)

 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 25, 2015, 08:58:46 PM


OK!  You build the engine as it is using physics only!  If you think that using hand is unethical, make it automatic using a drop cam,  keeping the fixed magnet and shield vertical.   The entire system has to be correctly synchronized.

Here is the details of a drop cam :
 
http://www.technologystudent.com/cams/snail1.htm (http://www.technologystudent.com/cams/snail1.htm)
Thanks for the link. I have a 3D printer I can make the parts neccessary to complete the project.
I will spend some time and little money on this, but if the reward is that someone can learn from it, it is worth it :-)


I have magnets - enough of them. Many 25mm diameter 6mm thick neodymium. I will use a couple of those.


Here is some of the neos I have:


Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 26, 2015, 01:44:02 AM
Vidar:

Please do not upset the space/time continuum with your experiment.  I have just now re-set all of my clocks and watches for the daylight savings time change.

Bill
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 26, 2015, 02:34:23 AM
I have magnets - enough of them. Many 25mm diameter 6mm thick neodymium. I will use a couple of those.

Here is some of the neos I have:

 
Those magnets are useless for this experiment.  You should have a magnet as seen in the picture.
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 26, 2015, 02:45:36 AM
I got the picture from here :
http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/magneticguns.html (http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/magneticguns.html)
 
 

Don't know if these magnets have poles on faces.
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06586531 (http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06586531)
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 26, 2015, 03:03:24 AM
 
Direction of flux is shown wrongly in the picture shown above.  Actually flux crossover the breadth, not length just as in the case of a speaker magnets  which I have used in my experiment.
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: superhero on March 26, 2015, 03:10:05 AM
Can somebody please give us  anything that works :'(
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2015, 05:38:37 AM
@Vineet_Kiran

Thanks for the experiment and video.
I have presented a similar idea  under the topic name  of “mag mirror engine”.
in the mechanic section of the forum.
But I have not done the actual experiment or measurements.

Your description and video make clear enough the arrangement you are using
and your explanation is also accurate.  Please keep it in mind that some are here
only to detract, misdirection, and distort.   keep your head clear and your heart
strong.  Thanks again .

                                     floor
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 26, 2015, 06:30:30 AM


Those magnets are useless for this experiment.  You should have a magnet as seen in the picture.
It does not really matter what kind of magnet shape you got. However, if you see the picture I posted there is a stack of long flat magnets there too. I can use those.
The magnets you used in your pendulum experiment, how was they looking? Not like the picture you posted.
I am going to make a simple device that is sliding in and dropping a long steel bar or similar between two magnets.

Anyways, my drop cam was finished this night.

Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 26, 2015, 09:50:28 AM
@floor,
 
Thanks for your support.

What I feel is our knowledge about magnets, magnetism and magnetic field is very much limited and if we go on experimenting with magnets we may find lots of new strange things.
 
I have seen your mirrror mag engine. It is a nice work. We have to build it and verify.

 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 26, 2015, 09:52:21 AM
@Vidar,

I appreciate your interest and sincerity in work.  Wish you good luck!

May I know on what basis you have designed that drop cam?  The 90 degree fall in that cam should correspond to height of fall of the shield.  If not magnet will not be exposed and you will not get required repelling force.  Circumference of the cam should be corresponding to complete movement of pendulum or piston in one cycle and shield should fall when piston / pendulum comes closer to the fixed magnet at desired position.

Have you considered all these things?
 
 
 

 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 26, 2015, 10:08:50 AM
@floor,
 
Thanks for your support.

What I feel is our knowledge about magnets, magnetism and magnetic field is very much limited and if we go on experimenting with magnets we may find lots of new strange things.
 
I have seen your mirrror mag engine. It is a nice work. We have to build it and verify.
Feelings do not evidence make.  Actual reliable data that contradicts predictions based on current understanding is required to show defects in current understanding which can then lead to improved understanding.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 26, 2015, 02:08:11 PM
@Vidar,

I appreciate your interest and sincerity in work.  Wish you good luck!

May I know on what basis you have designed that drop cam?  The 90 degree fall in that cam should correspond to height of fall of the shield.  If not magnet will not be exposed and you will not get required repelling force.  Circumference of the cam should be corresponding to complete movement of pendulum or piston in one cycle and shield should fall when piston / pendulum comes closer to the fixed magnet at desired position.

Have you considered all these things?
My 3D printer isn't so big, so I must use smaller magnets. A coulpe of those small round ones in my "magnet picture".
The fall is not more than 50mm.
I also think the cam will result in great friction and inaccurate lifting process. I will make a try. If I cant continue due to many obstacles I have to think new. I wont spend weeks to complete this experiment.
I use Google Sketchup to make the model. Then convert it into a STL-file that I import in to Slicer software. In that software I set PLA temp, bed temp, layer hight, infill properties etc. Then I save it as a gcode-file the Arduino printer understands. The actual printing process is sent by Pronterface software.


I already know the outcome if the mechanical is a success (It will never be over unity - even without friction), but I build it for educational purpose only.

Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Floor on March 26, 2015, 03:48:41 PM
@Vineet_kiran

I am happy to see the possible improvement your concept represents,
over my design, in that the shield is not completely withdrawn from between
the magnets.

I am attaching two drawings or interpretations of your device.
Please let me know if I have understood your set up correctly.

                best wishes
                       floor
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on March 26, 2015, 03:54:38 PM
Hi Vineet_kiran,

Just from doing some simple tests the thinner the magnets, the less friction and actuation distant the shield has to move.

Attached is a picture of an alternative idea of using a sliding switch with shields that are lifted by the ramps when the magnet hits it. The goal is to temporarily lock the open state so it isn't coupled with the driving magnet.

A hair trigger snap action toggle switch may also be tried but adds complications with increased complexity and wear.

This design may still stick on the end cycle between the switch but may inspire some new ideas.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 26, 2015, 05:23:50 PM
My 3D printer isn't so big, so I must use smaller magnets. A coulpe of those small round ones in my "magnet picture".
The fall is not more than 50mm.
I also think the cam will result in great friction and inaccurate lifting process. I will make a try. If I cant continue due to many obstacles I have to think new. I wont spend weeks to complete this experiment.

I already know the outcome if the mechanical is a success (It will never be over unity - even without friction), but I build it for educational purpose only.

Vidar

 
Mr.Vidar,
 
 
Please don't spoil your 3D printer.  Here is a simple method to verify it. Please see the attachment.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 26, 2015, 05:35:45 PM
@Vineet_kiran

I am attaching two drawings or interpretations of your device.
Please let me know if I have understood your set up correctly.

                best wishes
                       floor

 
It is exactly right.  You have to move the shield completely inbetween the magnets to get maximum repulsion.   But it (part of the shield )has to be on the surface of fixed, strong, lengthy magnet.  If you try to take the shield out of strong magnet it experiences dragging force.
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: superhero on March 26, 2015, 06:06:38 PM

 
It is exactly right.  You have to move the shield completely inbetween the magnets to get maximum repulsion.   But it (part of the shield )has to be on the surface of fixed, strong, lengthy magnet.  If you try to take the shield out of strong magnet it experiences dragging force.
there is absolutely no need for the Non magnetic material.why don't you extend the fixed magnet as at Track for the shield to move On.  As the shield move along the truck the forces acting upon it (at the end & start) of the field are equal.  this for reducing the drag
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: MarkE on March 26, 2015, 06:25:20 PM

 
Mr.Vidar,
 
 
Please don't spoil your 3D printer.  Here is a simple method to verify it. Please see the attachment.
Your equations are wrong.  The energy loss for the shield is the (W1 + the shield weight) * H1.  The energy gain for the pendulum depends on the dimensions of W3, W2 and the pendulum arm and the weight of each.  It is not H2 * (W2 +  3*W3).
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 26, 2015, 06:27:44 PM
Hi Vineet_kiran,

Just from doing some simple tests the thinner the magnets, the less friction and actuation distant the shield has to move.

Attached is a picture of an alternative idea of using a sliding switch with shields that are lifted by the ramps when the magnet hits it. The goal is to temporarily lock the open state so it isn't coupled with the driving magnet.

A hair trigger snap action toggle switch may also be tried but adds complications with increased complexity and wear.

This design may still stick on the end cycle between the switch but may inspire some new ideas.

@Dream Think Build

Very nice imagination.  But how will you hold the shield?  Shield will be experiencing attractive force from the magnet (left or right) and if you try to contain the shield within a box or channel, it experiences tremendous frictional force while moving up.  That is the reason why I thought of moving the shield on the surface of magnet itself,  using a ball so that friction will be less due to  point contact even under tremendous attraction between shield and magnet. 


 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 26, 2015, 11:15:59 PM

 
Mr.Vidar,
 
 
Please don't spoil your 3D printer.  Here is a simple method to verify it. Please see the attachment.
I have looked at your drawing. Something seems not right in your equation.
Shield weight is mechanically coupled with the pendulum, and will only cause the pendulum to
change/lower frequency and possibly amplitude due to inertia in the shield mass,
because the linear movement of the shield is not sinusodial and not depending on resonance.
In your drawing, the shield does not need weight at all (Except the weight in the shield itself).
Movement of this shield could likely go horizontally.
Inertia caused by the shields mass will play a roll in both cases and restrict the pendulum to fluctuate.
The larger the ratio [shield mass / pendulum mass] is, the less fluctuation because the linear motion
of the shield will tap the reactive energy in the pendulum sooner and force it to stop sooner.


Maybe a shield made as a pendulum as well would solve that particular problem. Because then you are left with only reactive energy which doesn't restrict movement of the shield - nor the "main" pendulum. Possibly only valid if both pendulums have equal distance from the hub to the weight (Equal resonance frequency). A coupling of two gears at each pendulums hub will force those to sync, with a fluctuation that is opposite of each other.


When you put magnetism in place, you apply forces that will change the pendulums behaviour. Magnetic forces that changes during fluctuation will mutually between the different parts, correspond perfectly and balance each other out.


I can't see any possible reason why any type of design will cause over unity. But I hope you have an idea how to minimize all possible losses.


Something like this (Just balance the shield pendulum - not drawn in here):


Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2015, 01:15:24 AM
If you think eddy current damping in the shield is insignificant because the shield is moving "slowly"... I can only reply that you must not have much experience in such matters.
Take a look at any cheap Ohaus or other brand triple-beam or trip balance. You will find that their eddy-current damper assemblies are quite effective in damping out the pendulum swings of the balance mechanism, even though the period of those swings is on the order of seconds. Without the dampers the balances would go on swinging for many cycles, and with the dampers they stop after one or two cycles. It is a _significant_ energy loss mechanism and will be the same for any design using "magnetic shields" even if the shields are moving relatively slowly.

If you think your hand can detect the forces and changes involved, I can only repeat that you must not have much experience in such matters. Many people have been fooled by thinking that their hand motion isn't providing significant energy to their magnet motor systems; SMOTs, Minato motors, the Steorn all-magnet Orbo, etc etc are illustrations of this phenomenon. Not many people have actually _measured_ the energy required to turn a hand-powered SMOT into one that could self-sustain... but I have. It is a tiny fraction of a Joule, and there is simply no way that you can detect this tiny amount of energy with a crude setup powered by Mister Hand.

Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 27, 2015, 01:59:00 AM
TK:

I think you should post a link here to your SNOT track video which shows the ball going around...and around...and around...the track.

Bill
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 27, 2015, 03:17:07 AM
I have looked at your drawing. Something seems not right in your equation. Shield weight is mechanically coupled with the pendulum, and will only cause the pendulum to change/lower frequency and possibly amplitude due to inertia in the shield mass,
because the linear movement of the shield is not sinusodial and not depending on resonance.

Mr.Vidar,

Consult a physics professor, find out the exact energy equation and compare the input / output energy. Take your own time.

In your drawing, the shield does not need weight at all (Except the weight in the shield itself). Movement of this shield could likely go horizontally.

You are exactly right. Shield moves easily on the surface of magnet because it is parallel to the surface of magnet and experiences uniform flux theoughout in a parallel plane. It gets stuck at the bottom of magnet stack when it tries to move out of magnet.  I think now you have tried and realized. 
 
Shield will not move in horizontal plane because it is held with attracative force from the strong magnet on left side also.  That is the reason why I have said keep the fixed magnet very strong and moving magnet weak.
 

I can't see any possible reason why any type of design will cause over unity. But I hope you have an idea how to minimize all possible losses.


Once again I request you to build the engine as seen in my video and verify it.  Please don't make things complicated.
(I am getting bored!)
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 27, 2015, 03:23:36 AM
If you think eddy current damping in the shield is insignificant because the shield is moving "slowly"... I can only reply that you must not have much experience in such matters.

I agree that I don't have much experience in electrical experiments.  But even if the movement of shield causes eddy currents, it exerts force on the shield to what extent?  Is it same as force of repulsion between fixed and pendulum magnet? If it is so, I should have experienced strong force on my hand equal to the repulsive force between two magnets preventing the hand from moving the shield. But as you can see the shield is moving freely.
 
If just moving a metal plate infront of a magnet produces enough current then why do we need a generator with large number of turns?  We can simply move a plate infront of a magnet and generate enough current, voltage, power to meet our electrical needs.

It is purely a mechanical device. I am not worried about eddy current or joule heat losses. Just tell me, to what extent these things exert additional force on the shield to prevent it (or oppose it) from moving? 
 
 

 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 27, 2015, 03:37:30 AM
TK:

I think you should post a link here to your SNOT track video which shows the ball going around...and around...and around...the track.

Bill

In his SNOT device, he is using 'spring action' of the magnet and ball is moving out of magnet.  Obviously the ball experiences dragging force (slowing down force) from the magnet when it tries to move out of magnet influence area.
 
TK is just showing his over-intelligence in that experiment.

When I was studying in school, my teacher used to tell me 'normal intelligents are wise people, over-intelligents are fools.
 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 27, 2015, 05:07:44 AM

In his SNOT device, he is using 'spring action' of the magnet and ball is moving out of magnet.  Obviously the ball experiences dragging force (slowing down force) from the magnet when it tries to move out of magnet influence area.
 
TK is just showing his over-intelligence in that experiment.

When I was studying in school, my teacher used to tell me 'normal intelligents are wise people, over-intelligents are fools.

Well, that is interesting.  That is not what I got out of watching his video.

Bill

PS  Over intelligence?  Is that even real?  Is that like saying a woman is too pretty?  Or, a sandwich tastes too good?  Or, someone knows too much?  Your teacher was an idiot.

Bill
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 27, 2015, 05:51:32 AM
Well, that is interesting.  That is not what I got out of watching his video.

Bill

PS  Over intelligence?  Is that even real?  Is that like saying a woman is too pretty?  Or, a sandwich tastes too good?  Or, someone knows too much?  Your teacher was an idiot.

Bill

 
Somewhere, TK himself has said that it is due to spring action. It is difficult for me to find that reply now.
 
I don't think my teacher was an idiot because he had given an example also.

A king walks on the road barefoot and a thorn pricks his foot somewhere on the road.  Next time when he walks on the road he wears shoes for protecting his foot from thorns.  -  He is a intelligent person with wise act.

A king walks on the road barefoot and a thorn pricks his foot somewhere on the road.  Next time before he walks on the road he orders his men to cover the entire city with rubber mat to protect his foot from  thorns.  - He is a over-intelligent with a foolish act.

But both actions will save the foot from thorns!!!
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 27, 2015, 06:07:00 AM

 
Somewhere, TK himself has said that it is due to spring action. It is difficult for me to find that reply now.
 
I don't think my teacher was an idiot because he had given an example also.

A king walks on the road barefoot and a thorn pricks his foot somewhere on the road.  Next time when he walks on the road he wears shoes for protecting his foot from thorns.  -  He is a intelligent person with wise act.

A king walks on the road barefoot and a thorn pricks his foot somewhere on the road.  Next time before he walks on the road he orders his men to cover the entire city with rubber mat to protect his foot from  thorns.  - He is a over-intelligent with a foolish act.

But both actions will save the foot from thorns!!!

Well, I agree that the 2nd King was foolish, but I would never even think of calling him over intelligent.  Something may be lost in translation here but TK would have been the King that put his shoes on.

Bill
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2015, 07:27:51 AM
"Spring action"? Please keep looking, I'd like to see the exact comment you mean.

You are wrong about the SNOT device, too. I know precisely how much KE the ball has as it speeds around the track and I can position magnets, gates, shields, or any other mechanism or arrangement near the ball and thus tell immediately whether that addition adds to, or subtracts from the KE of the ball, and by how much. I know precisely how much energy is dissipated and at what rate (power) as the ball goes around the track. This means I know exactly how much energy has to be supplied to the ball during each cycle to make it keep moving.  Show me some other person's experimental testbed that allows that kind of actual measurement precision. Go ahead and build a similar apparatus to test your own system, Vineet, where your hands do not get involved in pushing things around. You will soon see that I am correct in what I state about your system.

The point about the eddy current braking or damping is that it is a _loss mechanism_. So is the inevitable friction of the shield with the rolling ball. So you have at least two loss mechanisms operating in the shield system that you have presented. There is no corresponding input of energy to overcome these loss mechanisms, except your hand powering the motion of the shield. Remove that source of external power and your pendulum will quickly come to a stop, because you cannot remove the loss mechanisms.

You think I'm "over-intelligent"? If that means I'm intelligent enough to analyze this simple device and tell you why it cannot possibly work, fine. If it means I actually build and test _quantitatively_ devices that I talk about... fine. If it means that I am able to avoid wasting my time on dead-end devices that are obviously powered by Mister Hand... that's good too. Take my "over-intelligent" advice: go ahead and build a system that doesn't require your hand for power input, and make some real measurements on it. Then let's see whose foot gets pricked by thorns.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 27, 2015, 10:33:31 AM
The point about the eddy current braking or damping is that it is a _loss mechanism_. So is the inevitable friction of the shield with the rolling ball. So you have at least two loss mechanisms operating in the shield system that you have presented. There is no corresponding input of energy to overcome these loss mechanisms, except your hand powering the motion of the shield. Remove that source of external power and your pendulum will quickly come to a stop, because you cannot remove the loss mechanisms.

Coming on your own line of thinking :
 
Input energy = Enregy supplied against eddy current damping + energy supplied to overcome friction between ball and shield
                    + energy supplied to overcome friction between ball and magnet.
               
                    All the energy is supplied by hand.
 
Output energy = Energy developed due to strong repulsion between two magnets.
 
 
What makes you think that output energy developed by strong repulsion between magnets is less than the input energy supplied by hand?

As you can see output and input are happenning by two different and independent processes. If I bring a repelling magnet near another strong fixed magnet (in the absence of shield) and release my hand,  then we can say that output energy developed by repelled magnet is equal to energy supplied by hand to bring it near the fixed magnet less losses.  Can we apply same rule to this experiment also?
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: shylo on March 27, 2015, 10:46:15 AM
Sorry for the interruption , I've never seen TKs' video could somebody provide a link please?
Thanks artv
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Jimboot on March 27, 2015, 10:49:58 AM
Maybe his teacher was referring to Teslas quote


Today’s scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.[/font][/size]

[/font][/size]
Not that Tinselhead would fall into that bucket[/font][/size]

[/font][/size]
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Newton II on March 27, 2015, 11:11:50 AM
Sorry for the interruption , I've never seen TKs' video could somebody provide a link please?
Thanks artv

You tube link .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q21CjmPV8fg



Reply #584 on: November 07, 2013, 05:16:17 AM »

http://www.overunity.com/13879/building-a-self-looping-smot/570/

Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 27, 2015, 11:57:24 AM

Mr.Vidar,

Consult a physics professor, find out the exact energy equation and compare the input / output energy. Take your own time.
 
You are exactly right. Shield moves easily on the surface of magnet because it is parallel to the surface of magnet and experiences uniform flux theoughout in a parallel plane. It gets stuck at the bottom of magnet stack when it tries to move out of magnet.  I think now you have tried and realized. 
 
Shield will not move in horizontal plane because it is held with attracative force from the strong magnet on left side also.  That is the reason why I have said keep the fixed magnet very strong and moving magnet weak.
 
Once again I request you to build the engine as seen in my video and verify it.  Please don't make things complicated.
(I am getting bored!)
Take away friction/loss the input- and output energy is equal.
Don't get bored - this is suppose to be fun discussing and play with :-)

About eddy current: Using a shield of ferrite/ non-conductive magnetic material will solve that problem.


Vidar.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 27, 2015, 04:21:54 PM
Vidar:

Please do not upset the space/time continuum with your experiment.  I have just now re-set all of my clocks and watches for the daylight savings time change.

Bill
I did upset  spac/time continuum, but it had only local effect...It happend yesterday
So my car turned into a snowplow and pushed all the snow from the courtyard into the garage with tremendous force!
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: vineet_kiran on March 27, 2015, 04:41:46 PM
I did upset  spac/time continuum, but it had only local effect...It happend yesterday
So my car turned into a snowplow and pushed all the snow from the courtyard into the garage with tremendous force!

I wonder how you people live in such cold climate.  Here even if the night temperature falls below 20 deg C,  I cannot sleep.  Do you people have any electronic heaters fixed inside your bodies? 
 
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 27, 2015, 06:19:27 PM

I wonder how you people live in such cold climate.  Here even if the night temperature falls below 20 deg C,  I cannot sleep.  Do you people have any electronic heaters fixed inside your bodies?
Hehe! It was only -1 or -2 deg. C yesterday. For us Norwegians that is normal at this time of the year, but the massive snowfall came yesterday and made total traffic chaos on all roads. Looking forward to the summer, +25-30 at most (On the contrary there is -25-30 in the mid winter...)
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: TinselKoala on March 27, 2015, 09:55:42 PM
You tube link .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q21CjmPV8fg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q21CjmPV8fg)



Reply #584 on: November 07, 2013, 05:16:17 AM »

http://www.overunity.com/13879/building-a-self-looping-smot/570/ (http://www.overunity.com/13879/building-a-self-looping-smot/570/)

Heh... that particular video is just a light-hearted response to the "one full turn" challenge that was made by a proven false claimant (who actually submitted a faked video of his claimed "self looping" device, then disappeared when challenged on it).

Here is the full development of the SNOT, with self-triggered drive pulser to perform True Experiments, and Arduino measurement of speed and KE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CKf5dUBmIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4num28k4EnA
This unit was primarily designed to test "gate" configurations to see if any such would add to the KE of a ball passing through. The basic concept can be varied to make a unit that would track pendulum motions for the purpose of evaluating designs like Vineet's.
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: shylo on March 28, 2015, 09:16:27 AM
Can a magnet of a given weight ,if dropped from a given height not preform work?
All the mag tracks I looked at don't go high enough.
Go up the ramp , drop out at the top, as going back down to the start travel past generating coils to produce power?
artv
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 28, 2015, 10:20:04 AM
Can a magnet of a given weight ,if dropped from a given height not preform work?
All the mag tracks I looked at don't go high enough.
Go up the ramp , drop out at the top, as going back down to the start travel past generating coils to produce power?
artv
The potential energy in an object is known by its mass, and altitude.
A magnet or not: If mass is 1kg, and you want to drop it 1 meter, the equation goes this.


E=m*h*g
E=1m*1kg*9,81N/kg=9,81Joule


So if you have a pendulum with a mass, the kinetic energy of that mass corresponds to the flucuation (angular displacement) and radius to the hub.
Say the pendulum fluctuate 45 degrees to each side and the legth of the rod between mass and hub is 1 meter, and the mass is 1 kg.
E max = m*L*sino*g
E max = 1kg*1m*sin 45o*9,81N/kg = 6,94Joule


Angular velocity at the bottom is:
V=(2*g*sino*L)1/2
V=(2*9.81*sin 45o*1m)1/2=3,72m/s


If a 1kg magnet dropped one meter is passing a coil, the maximum energy you can harvest from the coil is in theory 9,81Joule.
However, the potential energy in the magnets mass will determine the energy you can harvest, and how efficient the pick up coil is made, and how efficient the energy transferes from the magnet into the coil.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: shylo on March 28, 2015, 11:56:09 AM
Thanks Vidar, So if I get it to loop, that will be considered OU since there is no required input.
Also if it loops ,perpetual motion.
artv
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 28, 2015, 04:18:24 PM
Thanks Vidar, So if I get it to loop, that will be considered OU since there is no required input.
Also if it loops ,perpetual motion.
artv
Those equations applies to ideal non-frictional mechanism only. Friction will not allow things to selfsustain, or run perpetually.
If you apply more energy than required to complete one loop, it will, depending on friction, continue a couple of loops, but eventually stop. Not applying energy means only that the device that has no energy input will not have stored potential energy to use in order to start moving and empty that potential to do work.
Like a capacitor or a battery that is "flat". If you don't apply energy into it, it will not charge.
However, most batteries are made of chemical elements that react with each other. Appearently these batteries "self charge" after you have emtying them. But that happens only because there is a chemical process still going on in them.


General science that is used to makes things work, are relying on principles that nothing is OU. And devices made that way behave just as predicted if the math is done right in advance. If it was possible to achieve OU, then nothing would be predictable, and the worlds industries would collapse or run out of control. It would be impossible to calculate anything, becuse you would apply a factor in the equations that does not exist. How would you sort that puzzle out? You can't.


Honestly, you can forget everything about perpetual motion and OU. It does not exist. Whatever happened at the time of The Big Bang caused this universe to obey the physical laws we all know so well. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction - proven a trillion times. OU has not one single proof of existence.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: shylo on March 29, 2015, 03:37:53 AM
There is lots of friction, and it is causing problems. But the strength of the magnet can over take it, with the right layering of steel.
I don't have any form of input other than placing the magnet at the entrance of the track, where it gets drawn in by magnetism.
artv
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 29, 2015, 10:43:05 AM
There is lots of friction, and it is causing problems. But the strength of the magnet can over take it, with the right layering of steel.
I don't have any form of input other than placing the magnet at the entrance of the track, where it gets drawn in by magnetism.
artv
No, you can't. Steel is magnetic and will have influence on the magnets behaviour. You're putting steel there because you want to change the magnetic behaviour, but that also mean that the magnet is just as influenced by the steel as the steel is influenced by the magnet.
There is NO WAY you can make this work. No chance. Your best result will be unity - a selfsustaining device that is useless the moment you try to harvest energy from it.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 29, 2015, 12:18:00 PM

Honestly, you can forget everything about perpetual motion and OU. It does not exist. Whatever happened at the time of The Big Bang caused this universe to obey the physical laws we all know so well. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction - proven a trillion times. OU has not one single proof of existence.

Vidar

"whatever happened" seemed to input a whole lot of "energy" into this universe, and as such, must also mean there is a source of energy outside our universe for this to have occurred.

Which brings us to the simple fact that these "laws" we all know so well, only apply to a system that is closed, or in isolation.
We are very familiar with systems that utilize energy from sources outside the boundaries of the systems being analyzed.
Heat, Light, wind, Gravitational potential, physical motion, pressure, radiation, magnetic potential, to name a few.

When a system is designed to make use of external energy, though it cannot be labeled "pm", or "ou", still serves the same utility or economic function. Which is the conversion of this energy to provide it to us in a usable form.

These so-called "laws" of physics state that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but the same physics that is used to describe these behaviors, can also be used to show that energy is seaming throughout all space, and that there is no such thing as a "closed" or "isolated" system. All systems have energy passing into and out of their boundaries.

Our methodology and theoretical approach, generally results in systems designed to pass energy out, resulting in loss.
But, the opposite can occur, where energy passes into the system, resulting in gain.
These are the systems we seek to advance.

So, when such a system is developed: It is common for nay-sayers to proclaim what is not possible, or must therefore be a hoax.
This is counter-productive, and goes against all that is scientific.
But rather, we should examine how energy might be passing into the system, to explain its' behavior, or identify those portions of the system which are yet unknown to us.

Many will make false claims such as: it is impossible to gain energy from a gravitational or magnetic potential.
  This is simply not true. There are situations where gravitational systems can lose energy, gain energy, or the energy can remain the same.
The same applies to magnetic systems, but in a much different manner, due to the lack of time-constraints.

Such does not make these systems "overunity", nor does such violate any "laws" of physics.
Just as energy from the sun passes into a solar-power system,  energy from atomic interactions passes into a gravitational or magnetic system. The common experience, is the opposite, however. Like a solar-panel without sun, energy will pass out of the system.  A gravitational or magnetic system passes energy out in a similar manner, but this is only due to our methodology.
It is not necessarily so in all cases.
And from our perspective, the energy available in gravitational or magnetic systems, is much in line with nuclear physics.
E = mc^2. 
We would have to consume all of the energy of the mass that we are interacting with, to "use it all up".
And that amount of available energy, to us tiny humans, can be considered near infinite.

There exists no law that states a magnetic or gravitational system (or combination of both, or others) cannot be looped.
And if looped, such system would not be technically "ou", "pm" nor violate any "laws" of physics.







Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 30, 2015, 01:23:35 AM
"whatever happened" seemed to input a whole lot of "energy" into this universe, and as such, must also mean there is a source of energy outside our universe for this to have occurred.

Which brings us to the simple fact that these "laws" we all know so well, only apply to a system that is closed, or in isolation.
We are very familiar with systems that utilize energy from sources outside the boundaries of the systems being analyzed.
Heat, Light, wind, Gravitational potential, physical motion, pressure, radiation, magnetic potential, to name a few.

When a system is designed to make use of external energy, though it cannot be labeled "pm", or "ou", still serves the same utility or economic function. Which is the conversion of this energy to provide it to us in a usable form.

These so-called "laws" of physics state that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but the same physics that is used to describe these behaviors, can also be used to show that energy is seaming throughout all space, and that there is no such thing as a "closed" or "isolated" system. All systems have energy passing into and out of their boundaries.

Our methodology and theoretical approach, generally results in systems designed to pass energy out, resulting in loss.
But, the opposite can occur, where energy passes into the system, resulting in gain.
These are the systems we seek to advance.

So, when such a system is developed: It is common for nay-sayers to proclaim what is not possible, or must therefore be a hoax.
This is counter-productive, and goes against all that is scientific.
But rather, we should examine how energy might be passing into the system, to explain its' behavior, or identify those portions of the system which are yet unknown to us.

Many will make false claims such as: it is impossible to gain energy from a gravitational or magnetic potential.
  This is simply not true. There are situations where gravitational systems can lose energy, gain energy, or the energy can remain the same.
The same applies to magnetic systems, but in a much different manner, due to the lack of time-constraints.

Such does not make these systems "overunity", nor does such violate any "laws" of physics.
Just as energy from the sun passes into a solar-power system,  energy from atomic interactions passes into a gravitational or magnetic system. The common experience, is the opposite, however. Like a solar-panel without sun, energy will pass out of the system.  A gravitational or magnetic system passes energy out in a similar manner, but this is only due to our methodology.
It is not necessarily so in all cases.
And from our perspective, the energy available in gravitational or magnetic systems, is much in line with nuclear physics.
E = mc^2. 
We would have to consume all of the energy of the mass that we are interacting with, to "use it all up".
And that amount of available energy, to us tiny humans, can be considered near infinite.

There exists no law that states a magnetic or gravitational system (or combination of both, or others) cannot be looped.
And if looped, such system would not be technically "ou", "pm" nor violate any "laws" of physics.
I hope you're right, but wouldn't it require an immense amount of energy to "trigger" the energy that matter has in it?
If we could, we could provide power to 1500 housholds for one year by using all the energy there is in 1 gram of matter...by accelerate a grape to a velocity of 299 798 458 m/s...


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 30, 2015, 01:48:20 AM
I hope you're right, but wouldn't it require an immense amount of energy to "trigger" the energy that matter has in it?
If we could, we could provide power to 1500 housholds for one year by using all the energy there is in 1 gram of matter...by accelerate a grape to a velocity of 299 798 458 m/s...


Vidar

Perhaps, if you use the conventional nuclear approach....

However, constructive wave-interference of atomic radiation, or nucleic particle interactions (fission/fusion) is a more direct mass to energy conversion, which in a reasonably time period, we could run out of nuclear materials. I would hardly consider this technology to be "infinite", in fact, some scientists have actually placed a dead-line to running out of fissile materials.

What I was actually referring to, was the atomic energy already emanating from the mass in the form of gravitational and magnetic radiation.

to initiate a release of the energy, might not require much or any energy at all.

  NASA invented a "sling-shot" maneuver that could be one example, by approaching a mass at a specific angle, they are able to accelerate a craft greatly, without consuming much fuel at all during the acceleration. This, in a sense, "drains" energy from the gravitational field, by a tiny amount. ( at least in theory... though it has not yet been proven to drain anything)

Approaching a magnetic field in a similar manner can provide another example. I experienced this in my lab once, and nearly killed me trying to develop it further. (dangerous)


In theory, we could perform this "sling-shot" type maneuver a near infinite number of times, using the same gravitational/magnetic mass, without consuming all of its' energy/mass.

This is just one example, but human ingenuity will undoubtedly come up with several of this type of thing in the future. As some have in the past.



Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Newton II on March 31, 2015, 06:13:53 AM
I think one important thing nobody noticed in this experiment. 

Pedulum is gaining energy rapidly and stopping when it runs at full energy.  Acually what is happening here is pendulum gains enrgy in each cycle due to growing repulsion (because distance gets reduced after each cycle) and when energy stored in pendulum equals the energy of repulsion, pendulum stops because they will have momentum in opposite directions.

So, if energy is constantly taken out from the pendulum the problem may be solved and pendulum may oscillate without stopping.

It also means this engine can work only 'on load' and 'off load' it stops after few cycles when pendulum energy equals the repulsion energy.

Title: Re: Magnetic Engine Video
Post by: Low-Q on March 31, 2015, 12:35:17 PM
I think one important thing nobody noticed in this experiment. 

Pedulum is gaining energy rapidly and stopping when it runs at full energy.  Acually what is happening here is pendulum gains enrgy in each cycle due to growing repulsion (because distance gets reduced after each cycle) and when energy stored in pendulum equals the energy of repulsion, pendulum stops because they will have momentum in opposite directions.

So, if energy is constantly taken out from the pendulum the problem may be solved and pendulum may oscillate without stopping.

It also means this engine can work only 'on load' and 'off load' it stops after few cycles when pendulum energy equals the repulsion energy.
You are somehow right about "on load" and "off load". If we speak of an imbalanced wheel that can oscillate freely, it will spin for quite some time. If you PARTIALLY resist the oscillation, the wheel will stop sooner because it is loaded. But if you stop the oscillation completely, the wheel will spin for quite some time again. My point is; in first and third experiment, the oscillation isn'n loadingthe oscillation at all. Maximum load would be some where in between.
Same applies to a pendulum is that bouncing up and down. It's a bit hard for me to put this right, but I hope I've made my point somewhat clear :-)


Vidar