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Author Topic: Magnetic Engine Video  (Read 40463 times)

Offline superhero

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2015, 06:06:38 PM »

 
It is exactly right.  You have to move the shield completely inbetween the magnets to get maximum repulsion.   But it (part of the shield )has to be on the surface of fixed, strong, lengthy magnet.  If you try to take the shield out of strong magnet it experiences dragging force.
there is absolutely no need for the Non magnetic material.why don't you extend the fixed magnet as at Track for the shield to move On.  As the shield move along the truck the forces acting upon it (at the end & start) of the field are equal.  this for reducing the drag

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2015, 06:06:38 PM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2015, 06:25:20 PM »

 
Mr.Vidar,
 
 
Please don't spoil your 3D printer.  Here is a simple method to verify it. Please see the attachment.
Your equations are wrong.  The energy loss for the shield is the (W1 + the shield weight) * H1.  The energy gain for the pendulum depends on the dimensions of W3, W2 and the pendulum arm and the weight of each.  It is not H2 * (W2 +  3*W3).

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2015, 06:27:44 PM »
Hi Vineet_kiran,

Just from doing some simple tests the thinner the magnets, the less friction and actuation distant the shield has to move.

Attached is a picture of an alternative idea of using a sliding switch with shields that are lifted by the ramps when the magnet hits it. The goal is to temporarily lock the open state so it isn't coupled with the driving magnet.

A hair trigger snap action toggle switch may also be tried but adds complications with increased complexity and wear.

This design may still stick on the end cycle between the switch but may inspire some new ideas.

@Dream Think Build

Very nice imagination.  But how will you hold the shield?  Shield will be experiencing attractive force from the magnet (left or right) and if you try to contain the shield within a box or channel, it experiences tremendous frictional force while moving up.  That is the reason why I thought of moving the shield on the surface of magnet itself,  using a ball so that friction will be less due to  point contact even under tremendous attraction between shield and magnet. 


 

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2015, 06:27:44 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2015, 11:15:59 PM »

 
Mr.Vidar,
 
 
Please don't spoil your 3D printer.  Here is a simple method to verify it. Please see the attachment.
I have looked at your drawing. Something seems not right in your equation.
Shield weight is mechanically coupled with the pendulum, and will only cause the pendulum to
change/lower frequency and possibly amplitude due to inertia in the shield mass,
because the linear movement of the shield is not sinusodial and not depending on resonance.
In your drawing, the shield does not need weight at all (Except the weight in the shield itself).
Movement of this shield could likely go horizontally.
Inertia caused by the shields mass will play a roll in both cases and restrict the pendulum to fluctuate.
The larger the ratio [shield mass / pendulum mass] is, the less fluctuation because the linear motion
of the shield will tap the reactive energy in the pendulum sooner and force it to stop sooner.


Maybe a shield made as a pendulum as well would solve that particular problem. Because then you are left with only reactive energy which doesn't restrict movement of the shield - nor the "main" pendulum. Possibly only valid if both pendulums have equal distance from the hub to the weight (Equal resonance frequency). A coupling of two gears at each pendulums hub will force those to sync, with a fluctuation that is opposite of each other.


When you put magnetism in place, you apply forces that will change the pendulums behaviour. Magnetic forces that changes during fluctuation will mutually between the different parts, correspond perfectly and balance each other out.


I can't see any possible reason why any type of design will cause over unity. But I hope you have an idea how to minimize all possible losses.


Something like this (Just balance the shield pendulum - not drawn in here):



Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2015, 01:15:24 AM »
If you think eddy current damping in the shield is insignificant because the shield is moving "slowly"... I can only reply that you must not have much experience in such matters.
Take a look at any cheap Ohaus or other brand triple-beam or trip balance. You will find that their eddy-current damper assemblies are quite effective in damping out the pendulum swings of the balance mechanism, even though the period of those swings is on the order of seconds. Without the dampers the balances would go on swinging for many cycles, and with the dampers they stop after one or two cycles. It is a _significant_ energy loss mechanism and will be the same for any design using "magnetic shields" even if the shields are moving relatively slowly.

If you think your hand can detect the forces and changes involved, I can only repeat that you must not have much experience in such matters. Many people have been fooled by thinking that their hand motion isn't providing significant energy to their magnet motor systems; SMOTs, Minato motors, the Steorn all-magnet Orbo, etc etc are illustrations of this phenomenon. Not many people have actually _measured_ the energy required to turn a hand-powered SMOT into one that could self-sustain... but I have. It is a tiny fraction of a Joule, and there is simply no way that you can detect this tiny amount of energy with a crude setup powered by Mister Hand.


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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2015, 01:15:24 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2015, 01:59:00 AM »
TK:

I think you should post a link here to your SNOT track video which shows the ball going around...and around...and around...the track.

Bill

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2015, 03:17:07 AM »
I have looked at your drawing. Something seems not right in your equation. Shield weight is mechanically coupled with the pendulum, and will only cause the pendulum to change/lower frequency and possibly amplitude due to inertia in the shield mass,
because the linear movement of the shield is not sinusodial and not depending on resonance.

Mr.Vidar,

Consult a physics professor, find out the exact energy equation and compare the input / output energy. Take your own time.

In your drawing, the shield does not need weight at all (Except the weight in the shield itself). Movement of this shield could likely go horizontally.

You are exactly right. Shield moves easily on the surface of magnet because it is parallel to the surface of magnet and experiences uniform flux theoughout in a parallel plane. It gets stuck at the bottom of magnet stack when it tries to move out of magnet.  I think now you have tried and realized. 
 
Shield will not move in horizontal plane because it is held with attracative force from the strong magnet on left side also.  That is the reason why I have said keep the fixed magnet very strong and moving magnet weak.
 

I can't see any possible reason why any type of design will cause over unity. But I hope you have an idea how to minimize all possible losses.


Once again I request you to build the engine as seen in my video and verify it.  Please don't make things complicated.
(I am getting bored!)
 
 

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2015, 03:17:07 AM »
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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2015, 03:23:36 AM »
If you think eddy current damping in the shield is insignificant because the shield is moving "slowly"... I can only reply that you must not have much experience in such matters.

I agree that I don't have much experience in electrical experiments.  But even if the movement of shield causes eddy currents, it exerts force on the shield to what extent?  Is it same as force of repulsion between fixed and pendulum magnet? If it is so, I should have experienced strong force on my hand equal to the repulsive force between two magnets preventing the hand from moving the shield. But as you can see the shield is moving freely.
 
If just moving a metal plate infront of a magnet produces enough current then why do we need a generator with large number of turns?  We can simply move a plate infront of a magnet and generate enough current, voltage, power to meet our electrical needs.

It is purely a mechanical device. I am not worried about eddy current or joule heat losses. Just tell me, to what extent these things exert additional force on the shield to prevent it (or oppose it) from moving? 
 
 

 

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2015, 03:37:30 AM »
TK:

I think you should post a link here to your SNOT track video which shows the ball going around...and around...and around...the track.

Bill

In his SNOT device, he is using 'spring action' of the magnet and ball is moving out of magnet.  Obviously the ball experiences dragging force (slowing down force) from the magnet when it tries to move out of magnet influence area.
 
TK is just showing his over-intelligence in that experiment.

When I was studying in school, my teacher used to tell me 'normal intelligents are wise people, over-intelligents are fools.
 
 

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2015, 03:37:30 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2015, 05:07:44 AM »

In his SNOT device, he is using 'spring action' of the magnet and ball is moving out of magnet.  Obviously the ball experiences dragging force (slowing down force) from the magnet when it tries to move out of magnet influence area.
 
TK is just showing his over-intelligence in that experiment.

When I was studying in school, my teacher used to tell me 'normal intelligents are wise people, over-intelligents are fools.

Well, that is interesting.  That is not what I got out of watching his video.

Bill

PS  Over intelligence?  Is that even real?  Is that like saying a woman is too pretty?  Or, a sandwich tastes too good?  Or, someone knows too much?  Your teacher was an idiot.

Bill

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2015, 05:51:32 AM »
Well, that is interesting.  That is not what I got out of watching his video.

Bill

PS  Over intelligence?  Is that even real?  Is that like saying a woman is too pretty?  Or, a sandwich tastes too good?  Or, someone knows too much?  Your teacher was an idiot.

Bill

 
Somewhere, TK himself has said that it is due to spring action. It is difficult for me to find that reply now.
 
I don't think my teacher was an idiot because he had given an example also.

A king walks on the road barefoot and a thorn pricks his foot somewhere on the road.  Next time when he walks on the road he wears shoes for protecting his foot from thorns.  -  He is a intelligent person with wise act.

A king walks on the road barefoot and a thorn pricks his foot somewhere on the road.  Next time before he walks on the road he orders his men to cover the entire city with rubber mat to protect his foot from  thorns.  - He is a over-intelligent with a foolish act.

But both actions will save the foot from thorns!!!
 

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2015, 05:51:32 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2015, 06:07:00 AM »

 
Somewhere, TK himself has said that it is due to spring action. It is difficult for me to find that reply now.
 
I don't think my teacher was an idiot because he had given an example also.

A king walks on the road barefoot and a thorn pricks his foot somewhere on the road.  Next time when he walks on the road he wears shoes for protecting his foot from thorns.  -  He is a intelligent person with wise act.

A king walks on the road barefoot and a thorn pricks his foot somewhere on the road.  Next time before he walks on the road he orders his men to cover the entire city with rubber mat to protect his foot from  thorns.  - He is a over-intelligent with a foolish act.

But both actions will save the foot from thorns!!!

Well, I agree that the 2nd King was foolish, but I would never even think of calling him over intelligent.  Something may be lost in translation here but TK would have been the King that put his shoes on.

Bill

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2015, 07:27:51 AM »
"Spring action"? Please keep looking, I'd like to see the exact comment you mean.

You are wrong about the SNOT device, too. I know precisely how much KE the ball has as it speeds around the track and I can position magnets, gates, shields, or any other mechanism or arrangement near the ball and thus tell immediately whether that addition adds to, or subtracts from the KE of the ball, and by how much. I know precisely how much energy is dissipated and at what rate (power) as the ball goes around the track. This means I know exactly how much energy has to be supplied to the ball during each cycle to make it keep moving.  Show me some other person's experimental testbed that allows that kind of actual measurement precision. Go ahead and build a similar apparatus to test your own system, Vineet, where your hands do not get involved in pushing things around. You will soon see that I am correct in what I state about your system.

The point about the eddy current braking or damping is that it is a _loss mechanism_. So is the inevitable friction of the shield with the rolling ball. So you have at least two loss mechanisms operating in the shield system that you have presented. There is no corresponding input of energy to overcome these loss mechanisms, except your hand powering the motion of the shield. Remove that source of external power and your pendulum will quickly come to a stop, because you cannot remove the loss mechanisms.

You think I'm "over-intelligent"? If that means I'm intelligent enough to analyze this simple device and tell you why it cannot possibly work, fine. If it means I actually build and test _quantitatively_ devices that I talk about... fine. If it means that I am able to avoid wasting my time on dead-end devices that are obviously powered by Mister Hand... that's good too. Take my "over-intelligent" advice: go ahead and build a system that doesn't require your hand for power input, and make some real measurements on it. Then let's see whose foot gets pricked by thorns.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2015, 10:33:31 AM »
The point about the eddy current braking or damping is that it is a _loss mechanism_. So is the inevitable friction of the shield with the rolling ball. So you have at least two loss mechanisms operating in the shield system that you have presented. There is no corresponding input of energy to overcome these loss mechanisms, except your hand powering the motion of the shield. Remove that source of external power and your pendulum will quickly come to a stop, because you cannot remove the loss mechanisms.

Coming on your own line of thinking :
 
Input energy = Enregy supplied against eddy current damping + energy supplied to overcome friction between ball and shield
                    + energy supplied to overcome friction between ball and magnet.
               
                    All the energy is supplied by hand.
 
Output energy = Energy developed due to strong repulsion between two magnets.
 
 
What makes you think that output energy developed by strong repulsion between magnets is less than the input energy supplied by hand?

As you can see output and input are happenning by two different and independent processes. If I bring a repelling magnet near another strong fixed magnet (in the absence of shield) and release my hand,  then we can say that output energy developed by repelled magnet is equal to energy supplied by hand to bring it near the fixed magnet less losses.  Can we apply same rule to this experiment also?

Offline shylo

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Re: Magnetic Engine Video
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2015, 10:46:15 AM »
Sorry for the interruption , I've never seen TKs' video could somebody provide a link please?
Thanks artv

 

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