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Author Topic: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.  (Read 22761 times)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: E
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2015, 05:26:01 AM »
There is not enough time for all of that. But I'll cover this issue at this moment.


If you had ever taken the time to learn enough about ICEs, you would have left out the word "mainly".


WTF is "valve knocking"? "valve knocking"?? I first began to learn about ICEs in the stereotypical American way of being a car fanatic in the '50s when I was a teenager. To this day, I have never heard anybody (that knows what they are talking about)  say "valve knock". Valves don't "knock", they clatter when their clearance to the rocker arm is wrong. Valve clatter has absolutely nothing to do with combustion chamber temperature or anything related to it, that water injection has anything to do with.


Valves don't knock no matter what the compression and timing are.


I'm proud of you. You got a correct guess here.


In your obvious gross ignorance you have neglected to write of the most notorious benefits; cooling the valve heads so they don't snap off of their stems, and, cooling the piston tops so they don't get a hole melted through them.  ::)

 Depending on the particular circumstances, the combustion chamber temperature can range from maybe 700 F. to well over 1,000 F.  Long ago and far away I was performing a science experiment in which I drove my 59 Chrysler 300E  at 110MPH and then punched it. 120 in what seemed like no time flat. Then I noticed the temp gauge was going down. A blown out freeze plug. Looking under the hood showed the stock cast iron exhaust manifolds glowing red hot. (It was about 10 in the evening). Tell me, Sherlock, the temp. of red hot iron.

In WW2 fighter aircraft water injection was used to COOL the engine parts to avoid melting and related destruction during use of WEP especially during dire emergencies in dogfights, but also to enable quicker take offs at higher power when bombed up.


You should be SURE. You SURE write boldly about winning IQ contests, for an amateur who doesn't even know enough basic chemistry to KNOW for certain that their is no way that water injection water can possibility be spoken of as BURNING in an ICE. 




Bill, you obviously don't know your shine from your Shitola, but you DO have guts.




CANGAS 151

Well, you have once again proven that you know nothing about the subject being discussed here.  Valve knock, valve clatter...what planet are you from?  This is caused by pre-ignition of the fuel in the combustion chamber which IS affected by octane of the fuel (flash point) and valve timing.

Go read a few books on gasoline engines and get back to me. 

Better yet, just get lost as your ignorance is embarrassing you beyond belief here.

Bill

What was wrong with your car that it went so slow?  My Plymouth would easily top 150.  Of course, it had 500 HP.  You must have been driving your Grandmother's car.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: E
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2015, 05:26:01 AM »

Offline CANGAS

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2015, 05:37:40 AM »
Bill
Water cannot be burned full stop-regardless of what it may go through. Having to burn something in order for it to be classed as a fuel is incorrect. Fuel is a substance that produces a force/and or energy. As we cannot create energy,then the energy already existed in the fuel,so only a transformation takes place. Water to steam is such a transformation,but the steam is still water,just small particles.

Here is the experiment i started out with some 3 years ago to get to where i am today.This is one anyone can carry out that has some sort of mechanical skills.For this we will use an !off the shelf! catalyst,and an !off the shelf! generator of your liking--> i used a 1200 watt generator with a 4 stroke IEC.

First you pick a load that will be constant throughout the testing-->i used a 500 watt flood light,and had an AC volt meter across that light to make sure the voltage remains constant. A pre run of the generator to get it up to running teperature is also a good idea.

Test 1-You place 1/2 ltr of standard fuel into the tank(i swapped the original tank out for a 1 ltr tank.
Then run the generator with load until the fuel has been used,recording the teperature of the engine during the run,and the voltage across the load. The voltage should remain constant,as the generator is governed to run at a fixed RPM. Record run time,and engine temp.

Test 2.
Now you will need to run the generator with a catalyst mixed in with the fuel at a 4:1 ratio,but maintain the total liquid amount at 1/2 ltr. So for this test i used 400ml of gasoline,and 100ml of metholated spirits-->as it mixes both with gasoline and water. You then run test 1 again,and record run time and engine teperature.

Test 3
You now mix your fuel(the 4:1 gasoline/metho mix),BUT you add 100 ml of water to the metholated spirits first-->before adding it to the gasoline. You then run your test again,recording run time and engine teperature. The voltage across the load will remain the same due to the engine speed being governed-->but keep an eye on it anyway.

My results of that test as recoreded in my log's.

Test 1
Run time-27 minutes,38 seconds-->engine full stop.
Engine temperature at cylinder-142*C
Load 500 watts.

Test 2
Run time-25 minutes,22 seconds-->engine full stop
Engine temperature at cylinder-138*C
Load 500 watts

Test 3

Run time-36 minutes,42 second's-->engine full stop.
Load 500 watts
Engine temperature at cylinder-144*C

So from this we ask-->where did the energy come from to gain a longer run time,and a higher engine teperature?.


Where did it come from? The hypothesis is not original from me, but, I have read : the water injection droplets, or, micro-droplets provide a surface upon which gasoline/methanol/whatever fuel condenses, thus providing a greater area for contact with oxygen molecules and the contact with the flame-front, therefore enabling faster and more complete ignition.

It is not really an apparition of mysterious new energy, but, rather, less energy is wasted than in the normal combustion. Less fuel is left unburned, and, ignition timing can be raised to a more efficient point, less advanced,  nearer TDC.. 

The stereotypical piston engine ICE is phenomenally inefficient. Raising the efficiency of one to over 50% will look like a miracle. Such a technology, fully developed, reliable and repeatable, could be a boon marketed to the ICE industry and consumers.


CANGAS 152

Offline tinman

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2015, 06:19:07 AM »

Where did it come from? The hypothesis is not original from me, but, I have read : the water injection droplets, or, micro-droplets provide a surface upon which gasoline/methanol/whatever fuel condenses, thus providing a greater area for contact with oxygen molecules and the contact with the flame-front, therefore enabling faster and more complete ignition.

It is not really an apparition of mysterious new energy, but, rather, less energy is wasted than in the normal combustion. Less fuel is left unburned, and, ignition timing can be raised to a more efficient point, less advanced,  nearer TDC.. 

The stereotypical piston engine ICE is phenomenally inefficient. Raising the efficiency of one to over 50% will look like a miracle. Such a technology, fully developed, reliable and repeatable, could be a boon marketed to the ICE industry and consumers.


CANGAS 152
The ICE is close to 100% efficient at converting fuel into energy when heat is taken into account- minus the small loss in unburnt fuel that is emmited from the exaust.

Ralph Sarich's orbital engine exceeded 57% efficiency at converting fuel energy into mechanical energy. As i live close to where Sarich lived,i got to follow and see this engine run myself. It had a sound much like high performance motor cycle engine,and was quite small for the claimed power output. But like most things that would cost the big oil money,it was sold of in bit's and pieces to other companies around the world. The complete engine was never manufactured--> the big dollars won out in the end.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2015, 06:19:07 AM »
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Offline CANGAS

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Re: E
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2015, 06:19:24 AM »
Well, you have once again proven that you know nothing about the subject being discussed here.  Valve knock, valve clatter...what planet are you from?  This is caused by pre-ignition of the fuel in the combustion chamber which IS affected by octane of the fuel (flash point) and valve timing.

Go read a few books on gasoline engines and get back to me. 

Better yet, just get lost as your ignorance is embarrassing you beyond belief here.

Bill


Biily, every word you post makes your general ignorance become more obvious.

In my 72 years I have read a damn lot of books about ICEs. And I have had a damn lot of actual hands-on experience with them.

Get back to you? As far as I'm concerned you can go to Hell in a basket, and I am not planning to make any charity visits.

Me get embarrassed by a punk like YOU?? Make me laugh. I've been insulted by real experts. You're an amateur.


Quote
What was wrong with your car that it went so slow?  My Plymouth would easily top 150.  Of course, it had 500 HP.  You must have been driving your Grandmother's car.

The fastest I ever drove that Chrysler was 135 with the pedal about halfway down. The handling was getting a little spooky and I had no motive to press my luck. It was in July and I had the AC on. Before I bored and stroked the 413 out to 512. My Chrysler would have chewed up your Punyouth and spit it out.

You have just about, now, proved yourself to be a poser, a 56 year old man with a mental age somewhat less than that. Your boasts about yo cah are what I would heard from my car buddies back in the 60s, giving you a mental age of 18 or 20.


One to beam up, Scotty
CANGAS 153

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: E
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2015, 06:30:44 AM »

Your boasts about yo cah are what I would heard from my car buddies back in the 60s, giving you a mental age of 18 or 20.


One to beam up, Scotty
CANGAS 153

You were the one boasting about your Grandmother's car...I hope you fixed that broken gas pedal that only went half-way to the floor.  Of course, that would take some skills which it is obvious that you do not have.

By the way...what is a yo cah?  You must be from NY.  Ignorant and illiterate is no way to go through life...I suggest you try to learn something.

Even Tinman showed you that you were wrong about what you thought you knew.

Give it up, your ignorance is still embarrassing you.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: E
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2015, 06:30:44 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2015, 07:10:30 AM »
Cangas is correct about valve knock-->there is no such thing as valves knocking. The only situation that can occure that creates valve noise(not loose tappets) is valve float. This is when the engines RPM exceeds that of which the valves can close before the next cycle for that valve starts. Rattle or knocking is caused by high temperatures,too higher compression for the octane rating for that fuel,or timing to far advanced.Stale fuel also dose you no favours.

Cangas
A standard ICE engine can be modified to achieve over that 50% efficieny you speak of,all you do is raise the compression ratio to very high(such as a diesel engine),and add water/catalist mix to the gasoline.You will see those guru's here on OU tell you all about what water is and how it reacts-->but none of them know what is taking place inside the cylinder of an ICE when the big bang takes place when useing water mixed with gasoline. The best they can do is quote text book physics,but no text book provides actual data to this situation. They will argue the point with you,even though you have a working modle,and all they have is books that are irrelevant to this situation.When you achieve results that far outway any fuel efficiency gain that could be had with water injection,they fall flat on there face. They simply dont know what happens to the water when it is subjected to extreem temperatures and pressures-->in combination to the chemical processes taking place at the time.

Offline MarkE

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2015, 07:34:17 AM »
Well I was one of those that corresponded with him. Hardly an investigation though. We were all met with pretty much the same response. Come over and investigate if you are an engineer. So whilst the vids could easily be explained away I think he is right when he asserts there has been no thorough investigation of the claims published.As we say over here though, if it quacks like a duck.....
[size=78%]
[/size]
[size=78%] If someone is incorrect or delusional it doesn't necessarily make them a crook. [/size]
The third videw had wires planted in the ground.  That was a direct attempt to deceive.  The first and second video had the motor function built into the "generator".  Again more direct attempts to deceive. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2015, 07:34:17 AM »
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Offline CANGAS

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2015, 07:34:41 AM »
Cangas is correct about valve knock-->there is no such thing as valves knocking. The only situation that can occure that creates valve noise(not loose tappets) is valve float. This is when the engines RPM exceeds that of which the valves can close before the next cycle for that valve starts. Rattle or knocking is caused by high temperatures,too higher compression for the octane rating for that fuel,or timing to far advanced.Stale fuel also dose you no favours.

Cangas
A standard ICE engine can be modified to achieve over that 50% efficieny you speak of,all you do is raise the compression ratio to very high(such as a diesel engine),and add water/catalist mix to the gasoline.You will see those guru's here on OU tell you all about what water is and how it reacts-->but none of them know what is taking place inside the cylinder of an ICE when the big bang takes place when useing water mixed with gasoline. The best they can do is quote text book physics,but no text book provides actual data to this situation. They will argue the point with you,even though you have a working modle,and all they have is books that are irrelevant to this situation.When you achi eve results that far outway any fuel efficiency gain that could be had with water injection,they fall flat on there face. They simply dont know what happens to the water when it is subjected to extreem temperatures and pressures-->in combination to the chemical processes taking place at the time.


Hey, Jack, I did not get into this brawl to prove or disprove your invention, just to correct the idiotic disinformation spewed by whomsoever.

Many years ago today, I invented a perfect IC piston engine that had the best efficiency theoretically possible. Then I noticed that some people somewhere were claiming OU by coal fusion. Or maybe that was cold fusion.   ;D  Henceforth  I began to study and invent based on  principles beside chemical combustion. My studies and inventions have not been entirely without positive results.  ;) But I am not in the least interested now about whether somebody's ICE can get 30% efficiency or 57% efficiency. Many years ago today, I already invented the ICE that is the best it can be. I never calculated or tested the efficiency. If yours is 57, then, mine had to be at least 58.

I have considered digging it up and using it as a match to light my fire with. But I do not have the time, the energy, and other resources, to fight a war on two fronts simultaneously.

The best ICE is not as good as the worst OU device.


Best
CANGAS 154

Offline MarkE

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2015, 07:53:07 AM »
Bill
Water cannot be burned full stop-regardless of what it may go through. Having to burn something in order for it to be classed as a fuel is incorrect. Fuel is a substance that produces a force/and or energy. As we cannot create energy,then the energy already existed in the fuel,so only a transformation takes place. Water to steam is such a transformation,but the steam is still water,just small particles.
You are conflating propellant with fuel.  A propellant merely conforms to Newton's Third Law.  A fuel is consumed:  The feed stock changes into a different material with a lower energy potential, and the difference in energy is released.
Quote

Here is the experiment i started out with some 3 years ago to get to where i am today.This is one anyone can carry out that has some sort of mechanical skills.For this we will use an !off the shelf! catalyst,and an !off the shelf! generator of your liking--> i used a 1200 watt generator with a 4 stroke IEC.

First you pick a load that will be constant throughout the testing-->i used a 500 watt flood light,and had an AC volt meter across that light to make sure the voltage remains constant. A pre run of the generator to get it up to running teperature is also a good idea.

Test 1-You place 1/2 ltr of standard fuel into the tank(i swapped the original tank out for a 1 ltr tank.
Then run the generator with load until the fuel has been used,recording the teperature of the engine during the run,and the voltage across the load. The voltage should remain constant,as the generator is governed to run at a fixed RPM. Record run time,and engine temp.

Test 2.
Now you will need to run the generator with a catalyst mixed in with the fuel at a 4:1 ratio,but maintain the total liquid amount at 1/2 ltr. So for this test i used 400ml of gasoline,and 100ml of metholated spirits-->as it mixes both with gasoline and water. You then run test 1 again,and record run time and engine teperature.

Test 3
You now mix your fuel(the 4:1 gasoline/metho mix),BUT you add 100 ml of water to the metholated spirits first-->before adding it to the gasoline. You then run your test again,recording run time and engine teperature. The voltage across the load will remain the same due to the engine speed being governed-->but keep an eye on it anyway.

My results of that test as recoreded in my log's.

Test 1
Run time-27 minutes,38 seconds-->engine full stop.
Engine temperature at cylinder-142*C
Load 500 watts.

Test 2
Run time-25 minutes,22 seconds-->engine full stop
Engine temperature at cylinder-138*C
Load 500 watts

Test 3

Run time-36 minutes,42 second's-->engine full stop.
Load 500 watts
Engine temperature at cylinder-144*C

So from this we ask-->where did the energy come from to gain a longer run time,and a higher engine teperature?.
Well that was a nice attempt to try and conduct a meaningful experiment.  However:

You did not determine the caloric output of any of the three fuels used.
You did not determine whether any of the fuel alterations affected the caloric to mechanical efficiency of the engine.

So you pretty much can only conclude what you observed:  CHT and run time versus fuel type.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2015, 07:53:07 AM »
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Offline Jimboot

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2015, 08:23:18 AM »
The third videw had wires planted in the ground.  That was a direct attempt to deceive.  The first and second video had the motor function built into the "generator".  Again more direct attempts to deceive.
So a thorough investigation of the videos is probably mor accurate.

Offline tinman

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2015, 08:32:31 AM »
You are conflating propellant with fuel.  A propellant merely conforms to Newton's Third Law.  A fuel is consumed:  The feed stock changes into a different material with a lower energy potential, and the difference in energy is released.Well that was a nice attempt to try and conduct a meaningful experiment.  However:

You did not determine the caloric output of any of the three fuels used.
You did not determine whether any of the fuel alterations affected the caloric to mechanical efficiency of the engine.

So you pretty much can only conclude what you observed:  CHT and run time versus fuel type.
Lol-see what i mean guys-text book stuff used to try and discredit some ones work and conclusions.


Quote
You did not determine whether any of the fuel alterations affected the caloric to mechanical efficiency of the engine.
And yet i recorded both an increase in teperature and power output when adding water.

Water injection systems are designed to decrease engine running temperatures by decreasing the temperature of the gas entering the engine. This has the effect of being able to raise the compression,and/or advance the timeing of the engine. commonly used on turbo or super charged engines to increase boost pressures without destroying the engine.

But in my case,both the engine temperature and power output(via way of longer run time) both increased.As i stated,in order for water to increase engine performance via way of text book theory,then the engine temperature would have to decrease. But as i noted,the engine temperature increased,so the extra energy did not come from converting engine temperature into mechanical energy.
I might also add that all engine parameters remain the same -EG,timing,compression ratio,and load.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2015, 08:32:31 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2015, 10:31:12 AM »
Lol-see what i mean guys-text book stuff used to try and discredit some ones work and conclusions.
It's good that you conduct experiments.  What's not so good is when you draw conclusions that your experimental data does not support.  What's ugly is that for some reason you seem to disdain education.

Here are some things for you to think about:

What happens to your results if the caloric content of the various mixtures happened to be identical, but the flame propagation rate is different?
What happens to your results if the flame propagation rates are different and the caloric contents are different?
What happens to your results if the specific heat of the vapors are different?
What did your experiments do to establish any:  the caloric content of any of the mixtures, the flame dynamics, or the specific heat of the gasses during the power stroke?

When a grad student comes up with an idea, investigates the idea, and then writes up their thesis, they then must defend their thesis.  That process is not some sort of fraternity hazing.  It is a legitimate vetting of the student's work.  If the work is solid it holds up to such inquiry.  If it is full of big holes it is unlikely to do well.  You can choose to take the criticisms of your conclusions as constructively as they are offered, or you can take them personally as some sort of persecution.
Quote

And yet i recorded both an increase in teperature and power output when adding water.
Great, you changed a variable and you observed two parameters change.
Quote

Water injection systems are designed to decrease engine running temperatures by decreasing the temperature of the gas entering the engine. This has the effect of being able to raise the compression,and/or advance the timeing of the engine. commonly used on turbo or super charged engines to increase boost pressures without destroying the engine.
Yes, both the specific heat of water, and latent heat of vaporization of water are both very substantial quantities.
Quote

But in my case,both the engine temperature and power output(via way of longer run time) both increased.
So, what can you conclude?  Assuming that the mechanical load was regulated as 500W/Efficiencyalternator you know that the engine delivered more total mechanical energy for a fixed fuel mixture volume, and that the amount of heat rejected to the engine mass increased.  What you do not know is either:  1) How much chemical energy was contained in each mixture, or 2) How much heat energy evolved from the combustion went out the exhaust (most of it) in each case.
Quote
As i stated,in order for water to increase engine performance via way of text book theory,then the engine temperature would have to decrease. But as i noted,the engine temperature increased,so the extra energy did not come from converting engine temperature into mechanical energy.
You make the invalid assumption that input energy increased.  You have not accounted for the bulk of the energy released:  the exhaust, so you cannot say whether the longer, hotter runs were the result of greater heat generation or not.
Quote
I might also add that all engine parameters remain the same -EG,timing,compression ratio,and load.
That's nice, and it reduces the number of variables.  Unfortunately, if determining caloric output was your goal, your experiments were not set-up to do that.

Offline ramset

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2015, 11:37:14 AM »
TinMan
I had to go visit with my daughter,  away from the computer for a few days
Regarding your engine work and water fuel


I,m very excited about that.....
We need to get you off the road and into a lab!


That,s the page I,m on my friend,have a good week.


Chet

Offline ramset

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2015, 05:46:25 PM »
fatbird
It is the assumption that Mark E somehow has the final word on these things without ever having spoken
With the inventor or having any interaction with some one who has.
He treats the TPU LENR NMR NAR or any other claim the same way.


He places himself in a category where people have no respect for his opinions,because he has none
His word is the final word...opinions need not apply.


Case in point Wasif
And Mark E is also very disingenuous he outright lies and says I support these claims
When all I do support is a proper investigation prior to a sentencing.


An open ended statement which would perhaps be a benchmark post highlighting the
Issues with the inventors claim would be much better than calling someone you never spoke with a thief and a liar


He has the same approach for Steven Mark's  TPU and many other
Claims where we have never spoken with the  inventor


I'm still away visiting but we need to address this here,for several reasons
Not the least of which is to keep  these threads from regurgitating old topics

Offline MarkE

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Re: -----> Magnet Motor Drives Generator for FREE JUICE.
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2015, 06:47:30 PM »
fatbird
It is the assumption that Mark E somehow has the final word on these things without ever having spoken
With the inventor or having any interaction with some one who has.
He treats the TPU LENR NMR NAR or any other claim the same way.
Evidence is always welcome.  You frequently bring none.
Quote


He places himself in a category where people have no respect for his opinions,because he has none
His word is the final word...opinions need not apply.
Evidence is always what matters.
Quote


Case in point Wasif
Indeed.  Wasif's hapless videos were evaluated based on the evidence they presented and found to refute his claims by multiple reasonable people.  Of late you whine that those evaluations were somehow unfair or inconclusive without taking a single observation to task.  IOW, you prefer fantasy to reality.
Quote

And Mark E is also very disingenuous he outright lies and says I support these claims
When all I do support is a proper investigation prior to a sentencing.
Falsely claiming as you do that there is any reasonable doubt as to the truth or falsity of ridiculous claims that have been completely demolished by the likes of Greg Potter and Wasif Kaloon is giving support to those claims.  It's your free right to ignore facts as you choose.  It's no one else's fault that you get called on that.  If you actually believed the BS positions that you adopt you wouldn't be offended that others note them.
Quote


An open ended statement which would perhaps be a benchmark post highlighting the
Issues with the inventors claim would be much better than calling someone you never spoke with a thief and a liar
You adhere to a strange fallacy that determination of the truth or falsity of a claim requires a personal pilgrimage and face to face interview with the claimant.  Curiously, to the best of my knowledge you have never stated what supposed information such a pilgrimage or interview would render that alter the conclusions reached with other data.  When something clearly and indisputably fails to perform as a claimant states in their own presentations what more do you expect from an in-person inspection?  Remarkably even when damning facts are brought up you routinely fail to address those facts, and just bleat on with your nonsensical arbitrary criteria that no claim can be judged without a pilgrimage and/or face to face interview with the claimant.
Quote


He has the same approach for Steven Mark's  TPU and many other
Claims where we have never spoken with the  inventor
Got evidence?  Nope.  And that's the problem with so many extraordinary claims.
Quote


I'm still away visiting but we need to address this here,for several reasons
Not the least of which is to keep  these threads from regurgitating old topics
The forums are open for discussion.  Strong arguments are backed by reliable:  IE verifiable facts.  The charlatans Wasif Kaloon and Greg Potter will be singing the famous song "Tomorrow" until they have no more breath to sing.

 

OneLink