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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: nathanj99 on March 02, 2015, 01:24:37 PM
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Hi everyone.
I am new to all this and have been doing research over the last week. One thing I am stuck on is output coils for something like the Adams motor. I have no idea what sort of coil to make, even as to what the voltage and amperage I would get from a output coil. What wire would you use on a output coil, how many winds etc etc. Would you get more current if you used heavier wire? I can understand that the speed the wheel is turning would have a big effect.
Thanks
Nathan
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Hi everyone.
I am new to all this and have been doing research over the last week. One thing I am stuck on is output coils for something like the Adams motor. I have no idea what sort of coil to make, even as to what the voltage and amperage I would get from a output coil. What wire would you use on a output coil, how many winds etc etc. Would you get more current if you used heavier wire? I can understand that the speed the wheel is turning would have a big effect.
Thanks
Nathan
@Nathan,
Evey loop, or full turn of wire adds a volt to the power. A coil of thin wire and many turns genrates higher voltage then a coil of thicker wire and fewer turns. The thicker wire generates higher amperage. Try 26 or 28 gauge. That's whatAdamsused
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Thank you. Now I have a starting point. Im guessing I wont know what voltage I will get until i start experimenting? I need a circuit to change the voltage down to 12v. Any ideas?
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@Nathanj99,
A 120volt to 12volt, or 220volt to 12volt transformer can help step the voltage down along with a rectifier for another -.7 volts at the end. The charging voltage for a 12 volt battery should be around 14 volts. Take a voltage Reading off the output coil with a DMM before you select a transformer.
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Thanks synchro1. I have been looking at the circuit diagrams for the bendini engine. There is a 12v drive battery and a 12v charge battery. There is no transformer etc. so how do the people who make these know they are getting a 12-14 volt output to charge the battery and not some silly voltage that will fry the battery??
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Thanks synchro1. I have been looking at the circuit diagrams for the bendini engine. There is a 12v drive battery and a 12v charge battery. There is no transformer etc. so how do the people who make these know they are getting a 12-14 volt output to charge the battery and not some silly voltage that will fry the battery??
If they fried the output battery they would be happy. I would start with some cheap meters that will start you getting used to the concepts etc. Hook one up to your output before you hook it to the battery just to see what it is. I had some output coils that were pushing out 1kv on a simple pulse motor. The amps were quite low though so total wattage out, was about 2/3 of what I was putting in, so efficient but no cigar.
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Thanks synchro1. I have been looking at the circuit diagrams for the bendini engine. There is a 12v drive battery and a 12v charge battery. There is no transformer etc. so how do the people who make these know they are getting a 12-14 volt output to charge the battery and not some silly voltage that will fry the battery??
The answer to your question is that the output that charges the charge battery is not a voltage source, it's a current source. A discharging coil is a current source. The output voltage of the coil is primarily determined by the voltage of the charging battery itself. The voltage going into the charging battery is not determined by the coil.
You should try Googling "What is a current source?" and "Voltage source vs. current source."
If you can understand the concept of a current source and how it works then you will be ahead of 98% of all Bedini motor enthusiasts. I can't explain why, but literally there are Bedini motor enthusiasts that play with their Bedini motors for years with no understanding whatsoever that when the charging battery is being charged it's being charged by a discharging inductor that is a current source.
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Hook one up to your output before you hook it to the battery just to see what it is.
If you are suggesting that you should connect a voltmeter to the unloaded discharging coil you should never do this. The current source output from the discharging coil will generate an unknown high voltage that may fry the voltmeter and/or give the experimenter a very nasty shock.
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What do you suggest? Would a 1 ohm resister help?
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When charging a battery with a switched coil discharge. If the charging battery is in bad condition and has a high internal resistance then the voltage observed at the charging battery terminals may get quite high (even showing large spikes on a scope) and not much current will flow through the battery. that will eventually break down the sulfates if the battery is just sulfated. But if the charging battery is in good condition with low internal resistance then the voltage at the terminals of the battery will not get high and the battery will experience more current for a longer time and the battery will take charge from that.
If you open circuit the leads of an old transformer based battery charger or a car alternator (not recommended) the open circuit voltage is for my charger around 20 volts for a 12 amp charge and about 17 for a 6 amp charge ect. the car alternator on my old car gave about 18 volts at idle open circuit. The amount of current produced through the battery from a transformer charger or an alternator is determined by the "applied potential". If a regular transformer charger is applied to a sufated battery then the battery terminals will only go to about 20 volts or so (car alternator has active regulation).
But when a switched coil charger (ala bastardized boost converter with no output regulation) is connected to a sulfated battery with high internal resistance then the voltage can rise much higher for well known reasons, the higher resistance reduces the ability of charging current so it raises the voltage instead to overcome the resistance. and it does. Safe or not.
They can serve a purpose to try to restore really bad batteries but to get good capacity back in my batteries I use a 4 stage - 6 amp current pulse charger I bought from ebay it has a refresh function and analyses the battery before charging to determine the best algorithm it can for charging that battery, the fast charge portion uses a pulsing current that can build a higher voltage fast on a sufated battery, but when that happens and the charger stops prematurely I simply apply an appropriate load of around 4 to 6 amperes to drain the battery and force the battery to cause it's own current which also helps to desufate the battery. Then when it's discharged I put it back on the charger which does the refresh cycle again and re analyses the battery.
If I want to reclaim a badly sulfated battery I usually use some magnesium sulfate (epsome salts) saturated solution in each cell then maybe a coil switching setup for a while to get some charge into the battery so it can be discharged through an appropriate load. Discharging the battery appropriately does as much to desulfate the battery as charging it does.
Similarly a 1 amp trickle charge will restore a sufated battery if left for long enough.
Reality bites.
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If you are suggesting that you should connect a voltmeter to the unloaded discharging coil you should never do this. The current source output from the discharging coil will generate an unknown high voltage that may fry the voltmeter and/or give the experimenter a very nasty shock.
Interesting. i've done it thousands of times and never had this problem. Lucky I guess.
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It all depends on the amount of potential energy stored in the magnetic field of the coil. If the stored potential energy is not much then no problem. But if you have a large coil with low resistance and high inductance which is holding a lot of potential energy in the magnetic field then problems can arise. The amount of energy is a big factor when safety is concerned.
A bad battery with an internal fault could be caused to explode if the high voltage produced by the high resistance causes an internal spark in the battery and if there is Hydrogen and oxygen present inside it.
An exploding lead acid battery is a very bad situation even when there is no one present everything the sulfuric acid gets splashed on becomes degraded or destroyed. If one was standing looking at a battery when it exploded then heaven help them.
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Personally I don't allow much more than 24 volts at the battery terminals, with a switched coil charger (not regulated) this can be controlled by the applied voltage to the circuit or by reducing the pulse width for the charging of the coil.
Desulfation takes time to happen and it takes time to reverse.
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Micro processor control and custom charging algorithms can be fun, controlling the pulse width and limiting the voltage at the battery terminals is just a picaxe program away.
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Interesting. i've done it thousands of times and never had this problem. Lucky I guess.
If the circuit did not destroy itself then the energy was fairly low I would say. Multimeters have MOhm resistance on voltage setting.
and the higher the voltage gets the narrower the discharge spike is as well, (in the time domain).
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The answer to your question is that the output that charges the charge battery is not a voltage source, it's a current source. A discharging coil is a current source. The output voltage of the coil is primarily determined by the voltage of the charging battery itself. The voltage going into the charging battery is not determined by the coil.
You should try Googling "What is a current source?" and "Voltage source vs. current source."
If you can understand the concept of a current source and how it works then you will be ahead of 98% of all Bedini motor enthusiasts. I can't explain why, but literally there are Bedini motor enthusiasts that play with their Bedini motors for years with no understanding whatsoever that when the charging battery is being charged it's being charged by a discharging inductor that is a current source.
wow, I have been reading up about current sources. I think I kind of get it. But if one uses the output combined with a capacitor to power a light bulb rather than charge a battery, what would the voltage source be? or am I simply not understanding it?
Thanks for all the info everyone, its all very interesting .
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Interesting. i've done it thousands of times and never had this problem. Lucky I guess.
Why have you been doing this test? I am curious. You state "Hook one up to your output before you hook it to the battery just to see what it is. I had some output coils that were pushing out 1kv on a simple pulse motor."
So is your test to verify that the coil is capable of generating high voltage? If that's the case then you are not really measuring anything significant.
I think a typical multimeter has a high voltage scale that goes up to 2000 volts. I don't know what voltage it takes to blow the input for a digital multimeter but let's say it's 5000 volts for the sake of argument. For an analog multimeter you can fry the winding in the needle deflection mechanism. Let's say for the sake of argument it would take 5000 volts in this case also.
Let's assume that both digital and analog multimeters have a one megaohm input resistance.
Let's suppose that you hook the multimeter in series with a discharging coil, and the initial discharging current from the coil is one ampere. So that means you have a one-ampere current source that wants to pump that current into a one megaohm resistance. That means that the theoretical maximum voltage output from the coil (for a fraction of a second) is one million volts.
MileHigh
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wow, I have been reading up about current sources. I think I kind of get it. But if one uses the output combined with a capacitor to power a light bulb rather than charge a battery, what would the voltage source be? or am I simply not understanding it?
Thanks for all the info everyone, its all very interesting .
Forget about the capacitor in your example to keep it simple. If you have a current source of one ampere, and the filament of the light bulb is 50 ohms, then the current through the light bulb will be one ampere and the voltage across the light bulb will be 50 volts.
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Thank you. Now I have a starting point. Im guessing I wont know what voltage I will get until i start experimenting? I need a circuit to change the voltage down to 12v. Any ideas?
What is feeding the coil with alternating magnetism?
Is the alternating magnetic input constant or not?
If you want to transform the output voltage down to 12 V you must know that the coil produce more than 12 V. How do you know that?
The number of windings doesn't determine the output voltage alone.
If the output is greater than 12V you can use a regular transformer to transform it down to 12V.
Just have in mind that rectified 12V AC will give you about 17V DC.
You can use a cheap buck converter to transform 17VDC down to 12VDC. Type "buck converter" in the search field at www.dx.com. Many models to choose from.
Vidar
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Why have you been doing this test?
Because I wanted to
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Because I wanted to
Okay, so you didn't really know why you were doing the test and you were just doing it by rote.
Most people know that you don't put your multimeter on current measurement and then connect the probes across a voltage source because that can blow the multimeter.
By the same token, you don't put your multimeter on voltage measurement and then connect the probes in series with a current source (a discharging inductor) because that can blow the multimeter.
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Okay, so you didn't really know why you were doing the test and you were just doing it by rote.
Most people know that you don't put your multimeter on current measurement and then connect the probes across a voltage source because that can blow the multimeter.
You're funny
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You're funny
Well, you're a joke. You gave somebody bad advice and you were corrected. It's even potentially physically dangerous advice if a coil were to discharge into one hand, go through your heart, and then into your other hand that is at ground potential. You try to do the "big lecture" about maturity in past discussions, and yet your two responses to me are immature and typical of a ten-year-old. The irony.
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Well, you're a joke. You gave somebody bad advice and you were corrected. It's even potentially physically dangerous advice if a coil were to discharge into one hand, go through your heart, and then into your other hand that is at ground potential. You try to do the "big lecture" about maturity in past discussions, and yet your two responses to me are immature and typical of a ten-year-old. The irony.
The sky is blue
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvdY3HfepOo
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Well at least you have a sense of humour :)
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Well, you're a joke. You gave somebody bad advice and you were corrected. It's even potentially physically dangerous advice if a coil were to discharge into one hand, go through your heart, and then into your other hand that is at ground potential. You try to do the "big lecture" about maturity in past discussions, and yet your two responses to me are immature and typical of a ten-year-old. The irony.
An 80 Ohm coil that's outputting 40 milli amps at 28 volts does not present an electrocution threat.
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I never stated anything about the specifics of any coil with respect to the size of the coil, the resistance of the wire, or the initial current flow when disconnected.
Just do the research:
https://www.google.ca/#q=how+much+current+can+kill+you (https://www.google.ca/#q=how+much+current+can+kill+you)
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For example, 1/10 of an ampere (amp) of electricity going through the body for just 2 seconds is enough to cause death. The amount of internal current a person can withstand and still be able to control the muscles of the arm and hand can be less than 10 milliamperes (milliamps or mA).
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A domestic power supply voltage (110 or 230 V), 50 or 60 Hz alternating current (AC) through the chest for a fraction of a second may induce ventricular fibrillation at currents as low as 30 mA.[6] With direct current (DC), 300 to 500 mA is required.[7] If the current has a direct pathway to the heart (e.g., via a cardiac catheter or other kind of electrode), a much lower current of less than 1 mA (AC or DC) can cause fibrillation. If not immediately treated by defibrillation, fibrillation is usually lethal because all of the heart muscle cells move independently instead of in the coordinated pulses needed to pump blood and maintain circulation. Above 200 mA, muscle contractions are so strong that the heart muscles cannot move at all, but these conditions prevent fibrillation.
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Just like a discharging coil, which is an unstoppable current source, will force current into a badly sulfated battery, a discharging coil will force current through the human body.
For someone that does not know what they are doing, making a near-useless measurement of the voltage generated by a coil in a typical Bedini-type setup with no charging battery in place could be lethal.
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@Milehigh,
Quote from Milehigh,
"For someone that does not know what they are doing, making a near-useless measurement of the voltage generated by a coil in a typical Bedini-type setup with no charging battery in place could be lethal".
It would take a nice size 10 coiler Bedini to kill someone with BEMF. The Adams Motor only has four tiny magnets on the small rotor spinning at a few hundred R.P.M. The output's to Little to even light a small bulb
All it would take to avoid "discomfort" would be to attach the DMM electrodes with "Clip Wires" to the coil leads before starting.
Tinman was knocked cold for 10 minutes by a washing machine motor he tested as a generator. He stated it was a bad idea to hold opposite electrodes in both hands! I can confirm that!
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Actually whilst we're at it, don't stick a metal fork into the toaster
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Actually whilst we're at it, don't stick a metal fork into the toaster
Is it OK to use a butter knife? (Actually, it isn't...ask me how I know, ha ha)
Bill
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Is it OK to use a butter knife? (Actually, it isn't...ask me how I know, ha ha)
Bill
I'll go and conduct the experiment and get back to you.
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guys,
I have a couple of coils. I have been doing some amp test readings. I have a amp meter in series with the coil. I am only getting 30mA. The coil is 1.00mm AWG 18. 2.2ohms 112m (367 feet) Approx 1120 turns. I would have expected slightly more amps??? Any Ideas? What do you guys use?